LDS Freedom Forum

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:04 pm

jmack wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 11:33 am I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

I never heard about MMP from anyone until after I had received revelation that had strongly suggested MMP in the temple. We usually come to these conclusions independently. Experiences like these and finding other people who have had the same inspiration convinced us of their veracity. I highly doubt it’ll be accepted or taught at large until the millennium.

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

I had an experience once.

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:04 pm

jmack wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 11:33 am I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

I never heard about MMP from anyone until after I had received revelation that had strongly suggested MMP in the temple. We usually come to these conclusions independently. Experiences like these and finding other people who have had the same inspiration convinced us of their veracity. I highly doubt it’ll be accepted or taught at large until the millennium.

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 2:22 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:04 pm

I never heard about MMP from anyone until after I had received revelation that had strongly suggested MMP in the temple. We usually come to these conclusions independently. Experiences like these and finding other people who have had the same inspiration convinced us of their veracity. I highly doubt it’ll be accepted or taught at large until the millennium.

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

I had an experience once.

But did it contradict theirs? And if it did, how do you reconcile the contradiction?

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:04 pm

I never heard about MMP from anyone until after I had received revelation that had strongly suggested MMP in the temple. We usually come to these conclusions independently. Experiences like these and finding other people who have had the same inspiration convinced us of their veracity. I highly doubt it’ll be accepted or taught at large until the millennium.

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

But isn't that a direct contradiction of our doctrine/belief that Lucifer and a 1/3rd of the host were thrust down to earth without bodies, and they basically all 'hate' us because we do . . . including Lucifer? Maybe the Nephilim are a different issue. Maybe Lucifer has the power to manifest physically even though bodyless. Poltergeist phenomenon come to mind, etc.

Maybe all that "war in heaven" story is just metaphorical. Maybe Lucifer/Satan isn't actually a "being" per se - it's the mythology/theology metaphor for explaining duality - Yin/Yang - opposing forces that create choices. Satan/Lucifer/Devil is the "embodiment" or representation or symbol for FEAR/EVIL/DARKNESS. God being the opposite: LOVE/GOOD/LIGHT.

Also, what if it also represents spirits who decide they don't want to incarnate, which is required to evolve. They can probably change their mind (repent) & incarnate.

Again, non-literal/metaphorical interpretation of scripture which seems very mythological.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 5:26 pm I first heard it back when there was a subforum here called the Heavenly Gift ("seeking the heavenly gift" may have been its full name), and people were throwing the idea of mmp around. The idea of Mary being heavenly Mother came from a talk Snuffer gave in Arizona a year or so ago. I am still processing that.

To answer your first question, Mary who is Jesus' mortal mother would also be his spirit's mother. And, I suppose, Mary his wife would be the next heavenly Mother if Jesus is the next heavenly Father - thus she would condescend to come to earth to bear their son, the next Redeemer of the next round (or however that works).

jmack wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:31 pm It’s very strange. The man is Christ, does his wife become his earthly mother, or is the man the god who impregnates her? Just curious where you learned about MMP? I've only heard about it here.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I don't see it, but I'm not surprised that people would think that. I think people really want answers and so they will try to find them. I think it's the same with some thinking that Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost, I don't believe it, but they are trying to figure out his position and so they gravitate to the obvious, even if it has lots of plot holes.

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:04 pm

I never heard about MMP from anyone until after I had received revelation that had strongly suggested MMP in the temple. We usually come to these conclusions independently. Experiences like these and finding other people who have had the same inspiration convinced us of their veracity. I highly doubt it’ll be accepted or taught at large until the millennium.

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

Lucifer has form, all spirits have form, they are a finer matter, but Lucifer doesn't have a body like we do or like God does. Lucifer with his spirit body can pluck fruit off a tree, just like a spirit was able to touch me. You don't have to have a mortal body to be able to manipulate things on the earth.

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 11:20 am

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

But isn't that a direct contradiction of our doctrine/belief that Lucifer and a 1/3rd of the host were thrust down to earth without bodies, and they basically all 'hate' us because we do . . . including Lucifer? Maybe the Nephilim are a different issue. Maybe Lucifer has the power to manifest physically even though bodyless. Poltergeist phenomenon come to mind, etc.

I'll post more later, but if you give space to consider this you may be surprised at where the spirit leads. You may be surprised at just how many assumptions we make. Here's some food for thought:

Did he lose his body at some point (Discourse on Abbaton. Isaiah 51:9)

Is Lucifer and Satan the same being? At the telestial world the same actor is being portrayed but the name changes to Satan. Now, it could be the same being who has been stripped of authority, titles, and names. Discourse on Abbaton is again a fantastic read here.

Consider Adam and Eve's journey through the worlds and signs and tokens has taken place across time and space, and we are presented with a condensed version. We align now to the second token, sign and law of gospel. Our new name is actually our old name where we have already overcome the probations of obedience and sacrifice. Of course that doesn't mean we're perfect, but if the souls now of this time and season were born to Israel in Moses day, I'd bet solid celestial street pavement that there would have been no golden calf worship. Those souls were younger and new at overcoming obedience imho.

So, if Adam and Eves journey spanned worlds could there have been more than one adversary?

I think the most important consideration to me led by the spirit is accepting just how little is revealed about Lucifer and premortality in general. I think we've simplified things and have created false traditions we assume are true for the sake of east comprehension.

If you study the ot and Apocrypha there is indication there are > 1 devil of authority. Luciferians themselves believe the devil and Lucifer at separate.

I don't think that's all that important however. What is important is there were angels in authority who fell and both 1 Enoch and the Bible suggest some of them had physical bodies. I suspect the fallen angels of 1 Enoch fell after the world began. Agency is always intact.

The number 666 suggests the devil came from the order of seraphim. This order of six winged angels of Isaiah 6 (sequentially Isaiah 6 should be chapter one so why did Isaiah save it for chapter... Six) who align to the sixth order of mankind and the sixth promise of Revelation. The promise to "go no more out" is given upon overcoming and a conditional servant becomes an unconditional inheritor. This is indeed the last level from whence angels can become perdition.

And this is the level to which we are anointed to become so you can bet your celestial curbing that Lucifer had a body at some point and may have been resurrected before the garden of Eden just like Adam and Eve walked in with Celestial bodies.

We teach the devil and his angels would receive no physical body here... Or incarnate here. Is the the conclusion that none of them ever had a body supported anywhere in the scriptures?

jmack wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

Lucifer has form, all spirits have form, they are a finer matter, but Lucifer doesn't have a body like we do or like God does. Lucifer with his spirit body can pluck fruit off a tree, just like a spirit was able to touch me. You don't have to have a mortal body to be able to manipulate things on the earth.

Consider the following

D&C 129:7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Again that doesn't necessarily mean the devil or fallen angels never had bodies... Or that there may be fallen angels with bodies who are imprisoned as 1 Enoch suggests.

Consider the Lord said that the book of Enoch would be testified of in time. He did not say it would be revealed like unto the book of Mormon or book of Abraham or book of Moses etc

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 11:13 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 2:22 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

I had an experience once.

But did it contradict theirs? And if it did, how do you reconcile the contradiction?

Actually, I was being facetious. Although the statement is true, it has little connection with the topic at hand. Nevertheless, I do not believe in MMP for I strongly believe it insults Christ and His atoning sacrifice for us.

Many people may not know that the atonement was for all the worlds that God, the Father created via Jehovah. Jehovah was selected for that great purpose, and this earth was chosen for it as well. This is the only planet where even a small portion of its inhabitants would crucify their God. There are only God, the Father, Jehovah/Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost for all of God's creations.

D&C 76:23,24
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

Moses 1:32,33
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

Moses 7:30
30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 11:20 am

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

But isn't that a direct contradiction of our doctrine/belief that Lucifer and a 1/3rd of the host were thrust down to earth without bodies, and they basically all 'hate' us because we do . . . including Lucifer? Maybe the Nephilim are a different issue. Maybe Lucifer has the power to manifest physically even though bodyless. Poltergeist phenomenon come to mind, etc.

Lucifer and all his followers do not have bodies. Nor will they ever have a body; they are all cast into outer darkness where there is no glory whatsoever.

Abr 3:
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

jmack wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am

Davka wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

Lucifer has form, all spirits have form, they are a finer matter, but Lucifer doesn't have a body like we do or like God does. Lucifer with his spirit body can pluck fruit off a tree, just like a spirit was able to touch me. You don't have to have a mortal body to be able to manipulate things on the earth.

Makes sense that if Lucifer had a body, then he was already exalted with his perfected body and obtained membership in the Godhood due to his pre-mortal position with Jesus Christ. We know Jesus was born of flesh to Mary thus he must have still been in spirit form in the premortal realm? We also know (believe) that once a body and spirit are reunited they will not again be separated, so if Lucifer had a body how could it have been taken away from him?

Because of how evil spirits operate, I highly doubt they have experience operating their own human body.

I agree with you that spirit has form and power.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:37 pm

jmack wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am
Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

Lucifer has form, all spirits have form, they are a finer matter, but Lucifer doesn't have a body like we do or like God does. Lucifer with his spirit body can pluck fruit off a tree, just like a spirit was able to touch me. You don't have to have a mortal body to be able to manipulate things on the earth.

Makes sense that if Lucifer had a body, then he was already exalted with his perfected body and obtained membership in the Godhood due to his pre-mortal position with Jesus Christ. We know Jesus was born of flesh to Mary thus he must have still been in spirit form in the premortal realm? We also know (believe) that once a body and spirit are reunited they will not again be separated, so if Lucifer had a body how could it have been taken away from him?

Because of how evil spirits operate, I highly doubt they have experience operating their own human body.

I agree with you that spirit has form and power.

Lucifer did not have, or does he have...any type of body. See my above post. First estate = spirit, second estate = our body. Lucifer and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out of God's presence. The scriptures do not tell us if the followers of Lucifer lost their first estate, as did He.

How many here know that Cain rules over Lucifer? Why? Because Cain had a mortal body and Lucifer does not. In addition:

Moses 5:23,24
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;
24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Moses 5:30
30 And Satan ware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret..

the Father's command to the angels regarding the angel who refused to worship Adam:

Remove the writing- [which is] in the hand of the proud one, strip ye otf his armour, and cast ye him down upon the earth, for his time hath come.
For he is the greatest of them all,^ he is the head over them, and is like ] a king, and he commandeth them as the Fol. 14 a general of an army [commandeth his] soldiers ; he is the \i,t head over them, and their names are written in his hand."

Thus is it with this cunning- one, and the [names of the] angels were written in his hand. And ail the ang-els
'^ i.e. had reached their highest pitch.
' i. e. all the rebellious angels.

gathered together to him, and they did not wish to remove the writing- from his hand. And My Father commanded
them to bring a sharp reaping-knife, and to stab him there- with on this side and on that, right through his body to the vertebrae of his shoulders, and he was unable to hold himself up. And straightway My Father commanded a mighty Cherubim, and he smote him, and cast him down from heaven Fol, 14 & upon the earth, | because of his pride, and he broke his wings A-^ and his ribs and made him helpless, and those whom he had
brought with him became devils with him. ~ Discourse on Abbaton

To say Lucifer never had a body is not only without any basis whatsoever - there is evidence to the contrary. The temple endowment is an evidence, especially when you compare to D&C 129 that says devils cannot touch you. To presume that was always true is presumptuous and ultimately incorrect.

KJV Isaiah 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

9 Awake, arise; clothe yourself with power,O arm of Jehovah! Bestir yourself, as in ancient times, as in generations of old. Was it not you who carved up Rahab, you who slew the dragon?

I testify the IIT version is more accurate in using the word "slew" - I testify of this based off a firsthand of seeing. The spiritual gift to believe another's testimony can only be exercised if space is given for a seed.

I absolutely love discussing this stuff. Doubt not but be believing.

According to 1 Enoch, Enoch will judge the watchers - the fallen, incorporeal angels who mated with the daughters of men and produced the Nephilim - that Book the Lord said would be testified of. I am testifying to you right now ... 1 Enoch is of God ... there are words in 1 Enoch that have confirmed the most sacred experiences of mine verbatim. Let's see how the Bible and the understanding of the levels of mankind reinforces Enoch being the judge of the fallen angels. You can tell me this is all a coincidence if you like, or that Isaiah 51:9 and Discourse on Abbaton and 1 Enoch are all just coincidentally wrong together. You put this all together and ... well see for yourself.

Levels / Order of Mankind | Dispensation | Patriarch | | Law of the Gospel | Promise in Revelation

7 / Kings | 1 | Adam | Consecration | Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
6 / Priests | 2 | Enoch | Chastity | Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
5 / Ephraim | 3 | Noah | Gospel
4 / Levi | 4 | Abraham | Sacrifice | Revelation 2:26-28 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms; And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
3 / Israel | 5 | Moses | Obedience | Revelation 2:17 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
<<-- Baptism / Jesus Christ
2 / Gentiles | 6 | Peter | Repentance| Revelation 2:11 He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
1 / Perdition | 7 | Joseph Smith | Faith | Revelation 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Interesting - Testament of Levi says the Davidic Servant will open the way to the tree of life - perhaps he is tied into the 7th dispensation after all. However, I want to focus on level 6 here and the law of chastity and Enoch and how this all reinforces everything posted here so far and more.

Order 6 / Priests | Dispensation 2 | Enoch | The Law of Chastity | Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

When Enoch is showed the order of seraphim in 1 Enoch, he longs to dwell with them, and then he is told this:

Enoch 39:6 And in that place my eyes saw the Elect One of righteousness and of faith, (Righteousness - the Davidic Servant)

7 And I saw his dwelling-place under the wings of the Lord of spirits. (Jehovah)

8 And righteousness shall prevail in his days, and the righteous and elect shall be innumerable and will be before Him for ever and ever.

9 And all the righteous and elect ones before Him shall be as bright as fiery lights, (seraphim means fiery flying serpents) and their mouth shall be full of blessing, and their lips shall praise the name of the Lord of spirits. Righteousness and truth before Him shall never fail.

10 There I wished to dwell, and my spirit longed for that dwellingplace; and thus it was decided and my portion was assigned and established by the Lord of spirits.

11. And before Him there is no ceasing. He knows before the world was created what is for ever and what will be from generation unto generation.

12. Those who sleep not bless Thee: they stand before Thy glory and bless, praise, and extol, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Spirits: He filleth the earth with spirits."'

Enoch is the Patriarch who ultimately presides over the Seraphim and there is an amazing reinforcement of that understanding in verse 10. The Davidic Servant and the devil both come from this order - According to Discourse on Abbaton, the devil may have had the right first to sit upon the throne of Adam; however, what is the law that aligns to this order of mankind.

The Law of Chastity

In 1 Enoch, Enoch is told by the Lord that he will judge the fallen angels who condescended and procreated with the daugthers of men, breaking The Law of Chastity.

King David - what was the cause of his downfall? Sure, the murdering of Uriah may have been what cast him down from his exaltation, but the breaking of the Law of Chastity is what led to his downfall. Had he resisted and had he mastered his thoughts and made his mind a holy place ... Uriah would not have been murdered.

The 144,000 high priests who are mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14? They're called virgins ... they have the name of the father sealed (and unopened) because they have overcome the central trial of their probation. Those angels who fell to fornicate - yeah they failed. Enoch judges them because he presides over their order. The sixth promise in revelation mentions New Jerusalem coming down from heaven - That's the City of Enoch. Not ... a coincidence.

Level 7 = 4th token / sign = Patriarchs / Archangels - the fullness of the Priesthood
Level 6 = 3rd token sign = Seraphim / Priests - the order of Melchizedek (Think back on the quote from DoA at the beginning of this post - the names of the angels are written in the hand of the devil before he falls. Think of the third token. That symbol is removed from him when he falls)
Level 5 = 2nd token sign = Ephraim / LDS - Priesthood of Levi in the youth - Tasting of the Priesthood of Melchizedek as adults
Level 4 = 1st token sign = Levi - Priesthood of Aaron only

The masonic rituals speak of the white stone that is promised to the third order of mankind - Revelation 2:17 - (and given to the 4th and to those who all "upon entering" the celestial kingdom) - the older temple rituals align to the younger souls.

So .. the Davidic Servant is receiving what Joseph Smith said King David failed to receive - the fullness of the Priesthood. I'm betting the Law of Chastity will come into play during this man's mortal probation:

Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage. ~ Joseph Smith, March 10, 1844

Now, you can argue whether the law of Chastity had anything to do with Lucifer and Eve - some believe this, but I certainly don't. Whether that means I'm not ready for such a revelation or such never happened ... well the Lord's thoughts and ways are above my own and I would never presume I have all the answers based off my own current understanding and based off scriptures that teach there is so much yet to be revealed - especially pertaining to thrones, principalities, dominions, and powers.

So, is this all a coincidence? What about the highly Davidic nature of the message to the angel of the sixth church of Asia. Perhaps this message is to the presiding Seraf rather than to Enoch Himself....remember Discourse on Abbaton suggests the 8th angel / Davidic Servant sits upon the throne of Adam.

Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


The Lord tells the sixth angel he will make them of the synagogue of Satan to worship before the angel's feet. Is this the same angel John worships twice in the later chapters at the end of a full revelation of which we only have a partial account? Yes. This is the same servant Jesus told the nephites he would exalt and make very high.

The Lord tells the sixth angel He will keep the angel from the hour of temptation that comes upon the world - does that not suggest the angel will be in the flesh and subject to the flesh? Does this not reinforce what Joseph Smith said about King David and the latter-day King David receiving the fullness of the Priesthood?

Hold fast that no man take thy crown reinforces what Joseph Smith said about the Holy Ghost being in a probationary state. This is a probationary crown that can be lost while he who sitteth upon the throne rules. Read Revelation again and take note that he who sitteth upon the throne is the Holy Ghost. He is the angel John worships. Every instance of "another angel" may in fact be a reference to the 8th angel. He certainly is the angel Abbadon in revelation who holds the keys of hades and who Revelation says will bind the adversary.

Those who know me know I don't seek to elevate myself ... and I don't - it's a part of the INFJ personality type and certainly true for me - however, these are the mysteries that I am unfolding before you now, and I am authorized by God to share them. But you will never see if you do not look.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:49 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:37 pm

jmack wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

Lucifer has form, all spirits have form, they are a finer matter, but Lucifer doesn't have a body like we do or like God does. Lucifer with his spirit body can pluck fruit off a tree, just like a spirit was able to touch me. You don't have to have a mortal body to be able to manipulate things on the earth.

Makes sense that if Lucifer had a body, then he was already exalted with his perfected body and obtained membership in the Godhood due to his pre-mortal position with Jesus Christ. We know Jesus was born of flesh to Mary thus he must have still been in spirit form in the premortal realm? We also know (believe) that once a body and spirit are reunited they will not again be separated, so if Lucifer had a body how could it have been taken away from him?

Because of how evil spirits operate, I highly doubt they have experience operating their own human body.

I agree with you that spirit has form and power.

Lucifer did not have, or does he have...any type of body. See my above post. First estate = spirit, second estate = our body. Lucifer and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out of God's presence. The scriptures do not tell us if the followers of Lucifer lost their first estate, as did He.

I completely agree!

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 3:11 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:49 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:37 pm

jmack wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Lucifer has form, all spirits have form, they are a finer matter, but Lucifer doesn't have a body like we do or like God does. Lucifer with his spirit body can pluck fruit off a tree, just like a spirit was able to touch me. You don't have to have a mortal body to be able to manipulate things on the earth.

Makes sense that if Lucifer had a body, then he was already exalted with his perfected body and obtained membership in the Godhood due to his pre-mortal position with Jesus Christ. We know Jesus was born of flesh to Mary thus he must have still been in spirit form in the premortal realm? We also know (believe) that once a body and spirit are reunited they will not again be separated, so if Lucifer had a body how could it have been taken away from him?

Because of how evil spirits operate, I highly doubt they have experience operating their own human body.

I agree with you that spirit has form and power.

Lucifer did not have, or does he have...any type of body. See my above post. First estate = spirit, second estate = our body. Lucifer and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out of God's presence. The scriptures do not tell us if the followers of Lucifer lost their first estate, as did He.

I completely agree!

As I did some further research, I found that I was in error when I said scripture does not indicate whether followers of Lucifer had their first estate when cast out of heaven. It appears that Jude 1:6 tells us they all lost their first estate.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I have stated that I will take responsibility for my own mistakes and correct them. So...none of the entities, called "AHGELS", kicked out of heaven had a body. They all lost their First Estate. I thought this was the case but wasn't going to assume it. Jude 1:6 confirms that suspicion.

We know that some of what we learn in the temple is symbolic. We also know that all the ordinances and covenants can only be realized by "OUR FAITHFULNESS" to them, they are not automatic. It comes down to the simple but hard tasked "IF" as to whether or not we obtain all the blessing afforded in the temple.

We are to act "AS IF" we are Adam and Eve, not that we are Adam and Eve.
Lucifer is played by a human being, acting "AS IF" he were Lucifer, not an invisible entity claiming to "BE" him.

So scripture supersedes the temple ceremony and provides proper answers. IMHO, much of what we learn in the temple is already in the scriptures. I see them as sacred so as to not make light of he powerful truth attached to them all.

When it comes to MMP's here is a warning for those that think they can repent at some future time on some other planet, those that think they can go from one life to another clean, pure and white., to live another life.

2 Nephi 9:38
38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

So..........MMP has no good function at all, because those who enter another life with sins still attached will never, ever be able to rid themselves from them, they will already have lost that chance while living in this life and allowing the atonement to cleanse them through faith and repentance. Second chance...won't happen.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 ...the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise,...

13 ...the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness;...

14 ...this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

A little more dealing with death and resurrection and what happens to each body whether good or evil:

15 Now, there are some that have understood that this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection. Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.

16 And behold, again it hath been spoken, that there is a first bresurrection, a resurrection of all those who have been, or who are, or who shall be, down to the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

17 Now, we do not suppose that this first resurrection, which is spoken of in this manner, can be the resurrection of the souls and their consignation to happiness or misery. Ye cannot suppose that this is what it meaneth.

18 Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but it meaneth the reuniting of the soul with the body, of those from the days of Adam down to the resurrection of Christ.

19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.

20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.

21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

22 Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.

23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.

24 And now, my son, this is the restoration of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets—

25 And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.

26 But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.


MMP? Not

Silver Pie wrote: ↑August 15th, 2019, 6:17 pm We were also taught that we would have the privilege of raising (resurrected) children who had no righteous resurrected parents to raise them.

Man, doctrine sure has changed a lot in the last 30+ years!!

I won't call them doctrine, but teachings, and they haven't changed, what you describe is what has been taught, but MMP believers are taking those teachings and interpreting and changing them to fit their new beliefs. That's what's happening.

I see the theory of Reincarnation as a twisted form of truth. MMP is the truth. It is obvious in the temple ceremony. However, if you already have an opinion, you cannot learn more about it. It is surely a scary concept to many. Luckily, to be a worthy of temple attendance, you do not have to believe this concept is a truth. I always say, my opinion doesn't matter, I just want to know God's truths. God has hidden his truths all over the place, but for eyes that see and ears that hear. If Joseph Smith said he would be killed for spreading God's knowledge to the Saints, seems to me these truths are not humanly logical. My husband is a genius, yet he struggles with many spiritual concepts and truths.

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 12:05 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 11:20 am

Alaris wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 10:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑August 16th, 2019, 1:11 am
Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.

My wife came back from the temple once with the witness that Lucifer had a body. This was before I started posting here or ever started studying about the Davidic Servant. The spirit witnessed to me strongly that her witness was true. This was early in our marriage and caught me by surprise a bit at the time. It caused a little cognitive dissonance but it wasn't until I suppressed that urge to disbelieve and maintain the my traditional view that the spirit could even witness to me. That was an internal battle that lasted a few long moments. "Can't be ....could it?" Getting from "Can't be" to "Could this be true?" was no small feat even though the internal struggle was over in seconds.

Of course this makes perfect sense to me now with many additional lines and precepts that reinforce. If you're looking for scriptural evidence look no further than the sons of God who mated with the daughters of men and produced the nephilim. 1 Enoch chapters 1 - 20 is a great study by the spirit as well regarding the watchers, which word is in the Bible, and the nephilim. These fallen angels had bodies.

Of course there have been attempts to explain away the nephilim to maintain the idea that none on this earth ever had physical bodies before.... Poor attempts at that. Again, there is a reason so little is revealed about the premortal existence but believing is seeing.

And of course 1 Enoch 38 - 70 is way, way more important than the watchers chapters, but sadly most 1 Enoch content online seems to focus squarely on the watchers chapters. Almost like the chapters about the elect one are hiding. I don't know why these later chapters are called parables when they are overtly apocalyptic revelations that coincide with isaiah as well as modern revelation.

Lucifer plucking and handing Eve fruit is not an oversight. But until one opens themselves to this possibly they cannot receive a witness.

But isn't that a direct contradiction of our doctrine/belief that Lucifer and a 1/3rd of the host were thrust down to earth without bodies, and they basically all 'hate' us because we do . . . including Lucifer? Maybe the Nephilim are a different issue. Maybe Lucifer has the power to manifest physically even though bodyless. Poltergeist phenomenon come to mind, etc.

I'll post more later, but if you give space to consider this you may be surprised at where the spirit leads. You may be surprised at just how many assumptions we make. Here's some food for thought:

Did he lose his body at some point (Discourse on Abbaton. Isaiah 51:9)

Is Lucifer and Satan the same being? At the telestial world the same actor is being portrayed but the name changes to Satan. Now, it could be the same being who has been stripped of authority, titles, and names. Discourse on Abbaton is again a fantastic read here.

Consider Adam and Eve's journey through the worlds and signs and tokens has taken place across time and space, and we are presented with a condensed version. We align now to the second token, sign and law of gospel. Our new name is actually our old name where we have already overcome the probations of obedience and sacrifice. Of course that doesn't mean we're perfect, but if the souls now of this time and season were born to Israel in Moses day, I'd bet solid celestial street pavement that there would have been no golden calf worship. Those souls were younger and new at overcoming obedience imho.

So, if Adam and Eves journey spanned worlds could there have been more than one adversary?

I think the most important consideration to me led by the spirit is accepting just how little is revealed about Lucifer and premortality in general. I think we've simplified things and have created false traditions we assume are true for the sake of east comprehension.

If you study the ot and Apocrypha there is indication there are > 1 devil of authority. Lucifer Ian's themselves believe the devil and Lucifer at separate.

I don't think that's all that important however. What is important is there were angels in authority who fell and both 1 Enoch and the Bible suggest some of them had physical bodies. I suspect the fallen angels of 1 Enoch fell after the world began. Agency is always intact.

The number 666 suggests the devil came from the order of seraphim. This order of six winged angels of Isaiah 6 (sequentially Isaiah 6 should be chapter one so why did Isaiah save it for chapter... Six) who align to the sixth order of mankind and the sixth promise of Revelation. The promise to "go no more out" is given upon overcoming and a conditional servant becomes an unconditional inheritor. This is indeed the last level from whence angels can become perdition.

And this is the level to which we are anointed to become so you can bet your celestial curbing that Lucifer had a body at some point and may have been resurrected before the garden of Eden just like Adam and Eve walked in with Celestial bodies.

We teach the devil and his angels would receive no physical body here... Or incarnate here. Is the the conclusion that none of them ever had a body supported anywhere in the scriptures?

Yea, I disagree, with a lot of what you believe. Here's the problem. We have a basic religious belief. Some don't delve much into it, but others start to read and think about it and try to reconcile their own thoughts with their religion. They build on the foundation of what they've been taught, but expand it to allow for what they like. You've done this a lot, I can tell and it sounds good, it's a lot of information from varying sources and then put together to fit your belief and you have had spiritual experiences you believe support your conclusions. But, the problem as I see it is that some of others have done the same, and have as much or more knowledge than you and they've come to different conclusions. On this thread I've seen some MMP believers use the condescension that others just aren't ready for 'truth' or they like milk and don't want to know more, or I suppose they aren't of the same caliber of spirit, they aren't going to end up a Savior on a world, so why do they need to know this anyway? That's not true, but it's a common excuse for why others don't accept these same ideas. A lot of these ideas that are shared, that we think are new, are not new, they've been around for 1,000's of years and they get brought up and resurrected and modified for a new audience. Some of your ideas are interesting and likely have truth, but some are just false. The Lucifer is not Satan theory is not new, but doesn't make it any more false than when it was first brought up. Lucifer/Satan takes many forms and many names, but it doesn't change that he's the same now as he was then and will continue to be. The Father of Lies and deception and if he can lead you down a path a little ways, give you a little bit here and there, truth mixed with lies, he's accomplishing his plans. I hope you will stay close to the church and the Church's true prophets and don't stray too far that you can't find your way back.

jmack wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 9:58 amYea, I disagree, with a lot of what you believe. Here's the problem. We have a basic religious belief. Some don't delve much into it, but others start to read and think about it and try to reconcile their own thoughts with their religion. They build on the foundation of what they've been taught, but expand it to allow for what they like. You've done this a lot, I can tell and it sounds good, it's a lot of information from varying sources and then put together to fit your belief and you have had spiritual experiences you believe support your conclusions. But, the problem as I see it is that some of others have done the same, and have as much or more knowledge than you and they've come to different conclusions. On this thread I've seen some MMP believers use the condescension that others just aren't ready for 'truth' or they like milk and don't want to know more, or I suppose they aren't of the same caliber of spirit, they aren't going to end up a Savior on a world, so why do they need to know this anyway? That's not true, but it's a common excuse for why others don't accept these same ideas. A lot of these ideas that are shared, that we think are new, are not new, they've been around for 1,000's of years and they get brought up and resurrected and modified for a new audience. Some of your ideas are interesting and likely have truth, but some are just false. The Lucifer is not Satan theory is not new, but doesn't make it any more false than when it was first brought up. Lucifer/Satan takes many forms and many names, but it doesn't change that he's the same now as he was then and will continue to be. The Father of Lies and deception and if he can lead you down a path a little ways, give you a little bit here and there, truth mixed with lies, he's accomplishing his plans. I hope you will stay close to the church and the Church's true prophets and don't stray too far that you can't find your way back.

Is someone trying to rewrite the Gospel of Jesus Christ and much of the panoply of scripture so as to gain followers and deceive everyone with fake news as does mainstream media ad nauseam?

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 12:53 pm

jmack wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 9:58 amYea, I disagree, with a lot of what you believe. Here's the problem. We have a basic religious belief. Some don't delve much into it, but others start to read and think about it and try to reconcile their own thoughts with their religion. They build on the foundation of what they've been taught, but expand it to allow for what they like. You've done this a lot, I can tell and it sounds good, it's a lot of information from varying sources and then put together to fit your belief and you have had spiritual experiences you believe support your conclusions. But, the problem as I see it is that some of others have done the same, and have as much or more knowledge than you and they've come to different conclusions. On this thread I've seen some MMP believers use the condescension that others just aren't ready for 'truth' or they like milk and don't want to know more, or I suppose they aren't of the same caliber of spirit, they aren't going to end up a Savior on a world, so why do they need to know this anyway? That's not true, but it's a common excuse for why others don't accept these same ideas. A lot of these ideas that are shared, that we think are new, are not new, they've been around for 1,000's of years and they get brought up and resurrected and modified for a new audience. Some of your ideas are interesting and likely have truth, but some are just false. The Lucifer is not Satan theory is not new, but doesn't make it any more false than when it was first brought up. Lucifer/Satan takes many forms and many names, but it doesn't change that he's the same now as he was then and will continue to be. The Father of Lies and deception and if he can lead you down a path a little ways, give you a little bit here and there, truth mixed with lies, he's accomplishing his plans. I hope you will stay close to the church and the Church's true prophets and don't stray too far that you can't find your way back.

Is someone trying to rewrite the Gospel of Jesus Christ and much of the panoply of scripture so as to gain followers and deceive everyone with fake news as does mainstream media ad nauseam?

Not at all. I couldn’t care less whether you believe or completely dismiss the possibility of MMP. And I won’t ask you to swear allegiance to or pay me any money either.

Jesef wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 1:25 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 12:53 pm

jmack wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 9:58 amYea, I disagree, with a lot of what you believe. Here's the problem. We have a basic religious belief. Some don't delve much into it, but others start to read and think about it and try to reconcile their own thoughts with their religion. They build on the foundation of what they've been taught, but expand it to allow for what they like. You've done this a lot, I can tell and it sounds good, it's a lot of information from varying sources and then put together to fit your belief and you have had spiritual experiences you believe support your conclusions. But, the problem as I see it is that some of others have done the same, and have as much or more knowledge than you and they've come to different conclusions. On this thread I've seen some MMP believers use the condescension that others just aren't ready for 'truth' or they like milk and don't want to know more, or I suppose they aren't of the same caliber of spirit, they aren't going to end up a Savior on a world, so why do they need to know this anyway? That's not true, but it's a common excuse for why others don't accept these same ideas. A lot of these ideas that are shared, that we think are new, are not new, they've been around for 1,000's of years and they get brought up and resurrected and modified for a new audience. Some of your ideas are interesting and likely have truth, but some are just false. The Lucifer is not Satan theory is not new, but doesn't make it any more false than when it was first brought up. Lucifer/Satan takes many forms and many names, but it doesn't change that he's the same now as he was then and will continue to be. The Father of Lies and deception and if he can lead you down a path a little ways, give you a little bit here and there, truth mixed with lies, he's accomplishing his plans. I hope you will stay close to the church and the Church's true prophets and don't stray too far that you can't find your way back.

Is someone trying to rewrite the Gospel of Jesus Christ and much of the panoply of scripture so as to gain followers and deceive everyone with fake news as does mainstream media ad nauseam?

Not at all. I couldn’t care less whether you believe or completely dismiss the possibility of MMP. And I won’t ask you to swear allegiance to or pay me any money either.

This is a relief. I feel much better now. All this fake news can stop coming our way now? We can get back to scripture as they are without trying to interject personal opinions into them?

If you could care less, from 1 to 10, how much would you care less?

BTW, I thought I was addressing jmack.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 1:41 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 1:25 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 12:53 pm

jmack wrote: ↑August 17th, 2019, 9:58 amYea, I disagree, with a lot of what you believe. Here's the problem. We have a basic religious belief. Some don't delve much into it, but others start to read and think about it and try to reconcile their own thoughts with their religion. They build on the foundation of what they've been taught, but expand it to allow for what they like. You've done this a lot, I can tell and it sounds good, it's a lot of information from varying sources and then put together to fit your belief and you have had spiritual experiences you believe support your conclusions. But, the problem as I see it is that some of others have done the same, and have as much or more knowledge than you and they've come to different conclusions. On this thread I've seen some MMP believers use the condescension that others just aren't ready for 'truth' or they like milk and don't want to know more, or I suppose they aren't of the same caliber of spirit, they aren't going to end up a Savior on a world, so why do they need to know this anyway? That's not true, but it's a common excuse for why others don't accept these same ideas. A lot of these ideas that are shared, that we think are new, are not new, they've been around for 1,000's of years and they get brought up and resurrected and modified for a new audience. Some of your ideas are interesting and likely have truth, but some are just false. The Lucifer is not Satan theory is not new, but doesn't make it any more false than when it was first brought up. Lucifer/Satan takes many forms and many names, but it doesn't change that he's the same now as he was then and will continue to be. The Father of Lies and deception and if he can lead you down a path a little ways, give you a little bit here and there, truth mixed with lies, he's accomplishing his plans. I hope you will stay close to the church and the Church's true prophets and don't stray too far that you can't find your way back.

Is someone trying to rewrite the Gospel of Jesus Christ and much of the panoply of scripture so as to gain followers and deceive everyone with fake news as does mainstream media ad nauseam?

Not at all. I couldn’t care less whether you believe or completely dismiss the possibility of MMP. And I won’t ask you to swear allegiance to or pay me any money either.

This is a relief. I feel much better now. All this fake news can stop coming our way now? We can get back to scripture as they are without trying to interject personal opinions into them?

If you couldn't care less, how much do you care less?

Maybe 7nm. It's hard to measure. Seriously, just Follow the Prophet, Don't Go Astray. Their mantle is far, far greater than your intellect. No need to think, just listen to them. Pray, pay, & obey. Stand & sit, & salute when they tell you. You'll be fine. Get back to your scriptures. Shouldn't you be in the temple instead of wasting time on an MMP thread? I mean you're pretty close to apostasy here. Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? You better get outta here!