The horror of MMPs

[MMbelieve]

How many pre mortal votes did we get to either accept Christ or Lucifers plan?
In MMP, it seems we should have a re-vote as many times as we needed to get it right. The pre-mortal is considered an innocent existence so re-voting would seem reasonable to assume. Yet, 1/3 were expelled and denied any mortality. If we believe there was one vote conducted, it then seems proper to assume our second estate also has one “try”.

[larsenb]

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

I view the MMP theory to be an unwarranted, malignant parasite embedded into scripture to deceive the very elect that should know better than to fall for it.

Well, for me, it's a subject worthy of a little thought and speculation. For instance, the idea of a born infant (and maybe aborted/unborn) going straight to the Celestial Kingdom seems like they are being deprived of a proper and necessary mortal probation. Perhaps this is what the Millennium is for. We are to understand that mothers who lost their child/children will have an opportunity to raise them during that time. Aborted children, I don't think so, unless assigned to a different mother who really cares for them. Now I am speculating. Throw all of those children/babies that died in the horrors of Nakasaki or Hiroshima or the Dresden Fire bombing, etc., etc., and it somehow seems like a stretch that all these were foreordained for that to happen to them, and didn't need or would not benefit by a longer earthly probation. Our main purpose for earth life is to gain our body...our second estate. Whether as an infant or an eight year old, it doesn't matter, they all got their body. And in years past, you had an exceedingly high infant mortality rate at various times.

Another idea, is that these (having died before the age of accountability, might go back to a celestial sphere staging area, to wait another chance. So, yes, they would return to Celestial spheres. As I stated, these children all got their boby so they can go on the Celestial Kingdom and remain there.

Still another and somewhat logical idea, would be that a mother (and possible father, as well) who believes that early deaths of their young ones guarantee them an eternal slot in the Celestial Kingdom, might be inclined to not do everything they could to protect the health of their kids, if they knew those deaths would get their children/infants/babies into this kingdom. A deranged portion of this category of parent might even conclude they would be doing their kids a favor by being instruments in their own childrens' demise.

One danger of nurturing the MMP idea is you could end up w/ideas that thrive in India regarding their untouchable class, etc. It may be, that once people learn and accept Christ, this could put them in a different category where they would be actually sorted for one of three kingdoms based on the life they lead after they learn of Christ. Those who lived here on earth without the law, Christ's teachings and gospel, will have an opportunity to learn these things after death, and if they accept it they will not be assigned the Telestial kingdom, but will have opportunity for higher glory.

That said, no, the MMP concept isn't part of my belief system; but remains an open question with me. Just speculation on my part. Just don't allow it to send you off onto forbidden paths and become lost. Lehi.

But with your statement: "Perhaps this is what the Millennium is for. We are to understand that mothers who lost their child/children will have an opportunity to raise them during that time. Aborted children, I don't think so, unless assigned to a different mother who really cares for them.", you make OI's point.

Children and mothers who have a 2nd chance to come back in the Millennium would have to be reborn . . . . unless they all come back resurected . . . . . which perhaps is what you think.

And hey, it's OK to speculate. That's one of the reasons we have intelligence and it's compliment, free agency.

And "allow[ing] it to send [me] off onto forbidden paths and become lost", probably won't happen. I've already gone through a rather sever deconstructing of faith, belief. Luckily I was given the gift of experiencing the other side.

I get concerned about people who allow themselves to be incredibly doctrinaire about certain issues. They come across as exceedingly brittle where the danger is that they might shatter into a thousand pieces and won't be able to pull their pieces back together again.

[jmack]

Do you believe Joseph was teaching MMP in his King Follet sermon? I've never heard anyone else say that. I've read second hand accounts of some suggestions, but I think they were not what you're saying. So if you think this how do you explain it not being a doctrine ever taught?

How do I explain MMP never being taught? Haven't I been explaining all along that it was both taught and believed? I guess it's time to start including these quotes again.

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. ...This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. Brethren, this is the course we have to take; it is a progressive work from one day to another, and from one week to another; and if we advance this year, we are so far advanced in preparation to better go through the next year." ~ Heber C. Kimball, JD:4-329

I don't see this as him talking about many mortal probations and reincarnation. He sounds like he's describing us lying down in death and then waking up in the spirit world and then on to a new life in resurrection. We advance in different stages--intelligence, then spirit, mortal, spirit again, then resurrected. He's using the word 'probations' but if you ask me, it isn't MMP the way you believe it.

"Brigham Young laid hands on Heber C. Kimball and "Ordained him to the Godhead, and that he would act as the Savior to a world or worlds." ~ January 1846 Nauvoo Temple Record

This is an interesting anectdote, but if you've looked t many of those old blessings, you'll see some things that are not what we're used to in our blessings, I would not draw the conclusion that because HC Kimball was given this blessing, it is wise or reasonable to generalize it to all men. That's irresponsible to draw broad conclusions from it.
(Consider this one is commentary that includes a secondhand account)
"By the time of his death in 1844, Joseph Smith had also reversed his prior rejection of the Cabala's doctrine of "transmigration of the souls." Two of the women Smith secretly married as plural wives in the 1840s said that he privately affirmed reincarnation. Apostle Lorenzo Snow said that "his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith, was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband." ~ Quinn, D. Michael, The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, Appendix 5, Selected Chronology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1848-1996,
This is probably your best bit of evidence, but personally I don't trust it. Once again, it's too convenient to say Joseph reversed his public position in private. That means there's no one to corroborate it. Also, who is the source?
Not Michael Quinn, the source he got it from? I like some of Quinn's work, but ever since he wrote the book suggesting that Joseph and his comrades were gay, I have been less trusting of his scholarship. Also, if Eliza Snow had personal opinions that's fine. To assume that Joseph's were the same, is not corroborated if you don't have Joseph backing it up.

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. ~ Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382
This is about the Holy Ghost and there's lots of commentary from some thinking the holy ghost still needs to take a body. Nothing about us being mortal and dying, then coming back as a mortal again and again, this doesn't support your beliefs.
Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. ~ Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245 (From Franklin D. Richards Journal)


This is the same, it's about the holy ghost, who isn't like us mortals, so putting yourselves on his level is a bit arrogant. This quote also says nothing about a mortal like us, dying and then coming back to mortality over and over.
Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

This supports the idea that all who receive Celestial glory will be a Savior, but I already brought up this problem. It's fine if you're a man, but if you're a woman, this doesn't apply to you. What are women supposed to be doing? Also, what about the singles who obtain a Celestial glory, they won't do that, and so this isn't exactly accurate. A lot of these speculations should not be taken as gospel, they aren't, their not part of the doctrine so they may or may not be true. But, there's nothing in this about living mortal, dying and then living again, over and over.

As for how King Follett fits into MMP, please read this if you genuinely want to know the simple logic behind how King Follett is in fact demonstrating MMP:

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... tions.html

I made some comments imbedded in your post above.in red.
, I just read these and am reminded that you claimed a number of past leaders who believed in your version of MMP, and I'm thinking it was these same people? Yet, when I read the quotes you shared to claim they believe in this, the bulk don't. They aren't mentioning living as a mortal, dying and then returning to mortal life over and over.
They mention some things like being a Savior, some of them were about the holy ghost. If this is what you are claiming as proof they believed in MMP, I don't see it, I think it's grasping. The only quote that supports you and reincarnation is the second or third hand quote about Eliza R. Snow and the only source is Michael Quinn. I would be careful of these kinds of quotes.

[Alaris]

For me, I'll stick with the shortcut. One life, one death, spirit and body never to be divided again, paradise, resurrection and then onward to the Celestial kingdom where I will remain forever. For those believing in MMP, have fun, I have no use for such a bumpy ride. Nor do I have any desire to insult Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for me.

For those believing in MMP, they must believe that all the Holy Prophets are having to go through many lives as well. After all, they are and were imperfect, fallible human beings, right? So why are we told that when we die we will all go back to God and see all the Holy Prophets there, if they're supposed to be off to some other world living the life of a Pygmy or maybe an ant.

Alma 5:24
24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

What? I thought that these pure and clean men had to go to some other planet to live another life, maybe more. Strange.

Oh, I get it These men spent one life here, repented of their sins and were presented to the Father as perfect men through the blood of the Lamb. Simple and effective, right? We all have the same chance as these fine men. MMP? Not

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are perfect already? Where is that written? I think you meant they're "pure" rather than "perfect." If there were shortcuts to perfection, I'm sure there would be a scripture somewhere about that.

D&C 49:8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

So are those Holy Men that we know not of perfect? And what does it mean to be perfect? Does it mean you are clean or does it mean you've perfected your passions, your gifts, your abilities, your leadership, your management, your administration, etc.?

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. ~ Joseph Smith

Like Jesef said, whether you believe this "great while" occurs in one resurrected body or in future probations ... If only we had some quotes about whether we have to be a Holy Ghost or a Savior along the one path to Godhood ...

And, if it's a long while, how has Abraham already enterred his exaltation unless he's already been on this path for "a great while" - unless there's some information out there about there being layers or gradations of exaltation....

Ha, ha, & the scripture/quote/revelation we have that Abraham "entered into his exaltation" is from D&C 132, sketchy at best (not published until 1852, the copy of a copy supposedly, in Kingsbury's hand-writing, that Brigham kept in his desk for 8 years?), could be the musings of Brigham Young. Sorry, but that's not very good evidence to rely on as a prooftext. And a lot of scripture isn't. D&C 19 is a good example that a lot of literal stuff doesn't mean what it literally says "endless" doesn't mean "has no end" & Alma recorded that his view on Resurrection & the afterlife Spirit world wasn't like he originally thought & taught - but was his later understanding totally complete? Probably not. Evolving doctrine/teaching is proof of different opinions & incomplete pictures/understandings - the scriptures are full of them. They span thousands of years and vastly different cultures - like "Paul's" supposed teachings about women. Like polygamy. Like racism. Etc., etc.

Consider I was responding to RR who does believe D&C 132 - so kudos to RR for that.

I think you and I may agree on these points at least:

Perfection:

A. Takes a "great while"
B. Nobody is called "perfect" at this point in time but Jesus Christ and Elohim.

Personally, I do believe D&C 132, and I believe Abraham is at a higher degree of exaltation but is not equal to Jesus' exaltation. Abraham is not "perfect" yet.

"you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." ~ Joseph Smith King Follett

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

So each who come into the celestial kingdom receive a white stone to learn about higher kingdoms. Does that mean nobody goes straight to the top after one life ... including Jesus? Including Abraham? yes. I mean just put D&C 130:10-11 next to King Follett. Then read D&C 93 -

Also this:

D&C 121:26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;

27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;

28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.

29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So are thrones, dominions, principalites, and powers revealed yet? Verily, No. Here are some questions to consider for those who don't believe MMP is possible:

Do we become priests and kings in resurrected bodies and preside / govern over beings who have no more progression themselves, eternally consigned to their telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms? And if so, what's the point? How much can be learned this way?

Abraham became both priest and king here.

That is, when Abraham offered up Isaac (Genesis 22), as repulsive a request as this was, Abraham went ahead and proved his integrity and faith. Consequently God bestowed upon him the highest blessing available to man, the fulness of the priesthood. ~ Joseph Smith

And over whom does he preside and administer the rights, powers, and privileges of his office? Now, do we become priests and kings in a same or similar manner? Do we become priests and kings over worlds like this as Abraham has, or do we become priests and kings over permanently telestial / terrestrial people? See what I mean?

We have priests and kings here and now. We are anointed to become as they are first before we can become as Jesus and Elohim are. And we will be kings and priests as they are now - over worlds just like this one.

[jmack]

I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

[Alaris]

How many pre mortal votes did we get to either accept Christ or Lucifers plan?
In MMP, it seems we should have a re-vote as many times as we needed to get it right. The pre-mortal is considered an innocent existence so re-voting would seem reasonable to assume. Yet, 1/3 were expelled and denied any mortality. If we believe there was one vote conducted, it then seems proper to assume our second estate also has one “try”.

Again, I'm unaware of anyone who believes in a horizontal "ground hog day" endlessly incarnating until you get it right. I've never heard of anyone who believes in MMP say or believe anything like this - anyone who believes MMP, please feel free to correct me. So, please let's stick to an honest, respectful discussion about what folks who believe in MMP actually believe. I've stated a belief in seven levels of progression with supporting scriptures many, many times here. I'm happy to state it again if you will consider what I actually believe.

That all said, how many votes is a great question. Consider how precious little has been revealed about "premortality" - does the word even exist in the scriptures anywhere? Certainly pre-existence doesn't as the term makes no sense.

I'm not sure what you mean by a second estate meaning "also one try" - though the first estate was certainly a probationary state with a pass / fail system. The second estate is a probationary state. So we already believe in multiple probations ... Are our probations over after this life even though we will be far, far from perfect? Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost is in a probationary state.

however I can answer honestly what I think it is you're asking by asking you a question. What is the difference between voting for Jesus in the first estate and "every knee shall bow?" Will we be compelled to kneel? What about those who don't kneel? What if the end of every world concludes in a sustaining vote that is required for folks who want to continue along the path of eternal progression?

What if the premortal vote required a kneeling to indicate a "yes" vote? Could a similar statement have been made before that happening? "Every knee shall bow"

[Alaris]

I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

This is a fantastic question, thank you.

When I first wrote an article on MMP, I was extremely surprised to see how vehemently opposed folks were and how angry and contentious folks got with me over what I believe. As a missionary, I discussed MMP with fellow missionaries, who also believed already or accepted the idea readily for consideration. Amazingly, none of them warned me that I'm in danger of excommunication or church discipline (lol)

I made a friend in college - still friends today - who also came to this conclusion independently. This is why I was shocked at how at mmp was received here and why I find it amusing how many try to staple the belief to the side of my head and push me out the window.

MMP is such an obvious consideration. The Bible itself suggests mmp. Jesus is only doing the things he's seen the father do. That means heavenly father did the works of Jesus and suggests Jesus was there to witness it. Who was he during Elohims dominion as Savior?

We believe we can become Gods, equal to and not lesser than God. This is also in the Bible.

G2g I'll post more later

[righteousrepublic]

I don't appreciate the wording in my statements being changed, like, I think you meant this or I think you are saying that as though I made some big errors. Is this how JoD or The Follette sermon are being read and taught by inserting thoughts and wording that do not exist? If there are mistakes or needful variances on my part, I will correct them.

I said that Abraham. Isaac, Jacob and all the Holy Prophets were perfect...and that is exactly what I mean. How can I make such a claim?

Well, here it is:

Moroni 10:32,33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The next verse reveals that Moroni was thrilled to be going to paradise and then regaining his body at some point and seeing Jehovah. He obviously wasn't anticipating having to go back to some other planet and get another body. He was emphatic about getting back the body he had in this life. He also is stating that he will meet us at the bar of Jehovah

34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

.................................................................................................................................................................
We can become perfect in this life by the blood of Christ by repenting often, living the gospel, becoming spiritual by shedding the natural man and receiving ordinances necessary for salvation in the kingdom of God.

The way is so simple, all we have to do is live a righteous life and Jesus does the rest. We cannot perfect ourselves, but we can be perfect in Christ. How?

Each of us are in a personal relationship with Christ. We strive to do as he teaches in every way, and He lends us His perfection, deeming us perfect...in Him.


The Book of Mormon is Grreeaaat

[ChooseTruth]

I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

I came across the idea over 20 years ago when trying to find answers about our eternal progression. The king follet discourse was very instructive at that time. The concept jumped out to me and I was struck with the realization, confirmed by the Spirit, that our path to godhood would follow the same one as Christ and the Father. Since then, that understanding has been deepened and bolstered by years of gospel study.

More recently, I’ve come into contact with others via these types of forums that share this understanding and it has been incredibly refreshing. I’d not had the chance or looked for the opportunity to discuss mmp with others as it hadn’t been a priority. It has prompted me to dig even deeper in my gospel study to gain a greater understanding.

As previously mentioned, I’m not a huge fan of discussing it publicly as I think it’s too deep for this type of setting. It’s also not necessary for our salvation that we understand it at this time. So, I’m happy to “agree to disagree” and let people discover it for themselves when they’re ready.

[ChooseTruth]

One additional item to consider. Abraham 3:23. Souls and spirits. We know souls have both a body and a spirit. In this scripture, there are both present in this pre-mortal setting. Both are being sent down. How does that work and why? Mmp provides answers.

I mentioned previously that having this understanding opens your heart and mind to an entirely greater understanding, one that makes my heart swell with gratitude and humility for being allowed to begin to understand it. The scriptures take on a new life as does the temple. You begin to see things that seem plain that you never noticed before. I would implore you to open your heart and mind to the idea that this could be correct. Then, experiment on to see what fruit it produces within you. Debating it will not help us progress.

[Benaishtart]

I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

I never heard about MMP from anyone until after I had received revelation that had strongly suggested MMP in the temple. We usually come to these conclusions independently. Experiences like these and finding other people who have had the same inspiration convinced us of their veracity. I highly doubt it’ll be accepted or taught at large until the millennium.

[Davka]

I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

I never heard about MMP from anyone until after I had received revelation that had strongly suggested MMP in the temple. We usually come to these conclusions independently. Experiences like these and finding other people who have had the same inspiration convinced us of their veracity. I highly doubt it’ll be accepted or taught at large until the millennium.

This was my experience as well.

[Silver Pie]

My first thought was Mary, the mother of Jesus - but if she is, in reality, heavenly Mother come to earth in the flesh, then it would represent her also (if it represents the Virgin Mary).

The ordinances in the OT days seemed to be all about Christ, his condescension, and the atonement, therefore, the heifer would be part of that scheme of things, I'm sure.

Very very interesting. Might could it represent a new heavenly mother?

[Silver Pie]

I'm so glad I got the being a frog stage completed.

[Silver Pie]

I first heard it back when there was a subforum here called the Heavenly Gift ("seeking the heavenly gift" may have been its full name), and people were throwing the idea of mmp around. The idea of Mary being heavenly Mother came from a talk Snuffer gave in Arizona a year or so ago. I am still processing that.

To answer your first question, Mary who is Jesus' mortal mother would also be his spirit's mother. And, I suppose, Mary his wife would be the next heavenly Mother if Jesus is the next heavenly Father - thus she would condescend to come to earth to bear their son, the next Redeemer of the next round (or however that works).

It’s very strange. The man is Christ, does his wife become his earthly mother, or is the man the god who impregnates her? Just curious where you learned about MMP? I've only heard about it here.

[Silver Pie]

Really good questions and thoughts, MM.

How many pre mortal votes did we get to either accept Christ or Lucifers plan?
In MMP, it seems we should have a re-vote as many times as we needed to get it right. The pre-mortal is considered an innocent existence so re-voting would seem reasonable to assume. Yet, 1/3 were expelled and denied any mortality. If we believe there was one vote conducted, it then seems proper to assume our second estate also has one “try”.

[Alaris]

I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

This is a fantastic question, thank you.

When I first wrote an article on MMP, I was extremely surprised to see how vehemently opposed folks were and how angry and contentious folks got with me over what I believe. As a missionary, I discussed MMP with fellow missionaries, who also believed already or accepted the idea readily for consideration. Amazingly, none of them warned me that I'm in danger of excommunication or church discipline (lol)

I made a friend in college - still friends today - who also came to this conclusion independently. This is why I was shocked at how at mmp was received here and why I find it amusing how many try to staple the belief to the side of my head and push me out the window.

MMP is such an obvious consideration. The Bible itself suggests mmp. Jesus is only doing the things he's seen the father do. That means heavenly father did the works of Jesus and suggests Jesus was there to witness it. Who was he during Elohims dominion as Savior?

We believe we can become Gods, equal to and not lesser than God. This is also in the Bible.

G2g I'll post more later

OK back to this thought process ... in my early twenties, I began to discover quotes from Joseph Smith that reinforced where my thought process was going. The Holy Ghost is in a state of probation ... wow! I mean, that's huge! He will then go on to experience the same or similar course as Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Son of Heavenly Father. Father / Son - so simple a child can understand. Sons become Fathers. If the Holy Ghost will go on to experience the same or similar course, then was Jesus a Holy Ghost before? Who will be Jesus son? His very first created spirit???

Meanwhile do we go on to be priests and kings in static, eternal worlds with no progression but within the celestial spheres? Are we then kings and priests to those who just inherit the middle degree of celestial glory??? That makes little sense to me. We know the lowest degree of Celestial glory is static, right? Only angels with no increase ...

This thinking of course opens up a whole slew of questions in addition to the above. What does it mean to be firstborn? These clues are littered all over the standard works - the heirs of crowns of the kingdoms of Israel, and the heirs of the covenant are almost never the oldest son. They are almost always a younger son. Inheritances in heaven aren't given based off age but accomplishment. Makes perfect sense.

If Jesus was Elohim's literally first born spirit, then how did He become perfect without ever having lived a life before? Did Elohim just give more light to Jesus? If so, God's justice ends at the beginning--why not give us all more light?

Did Jesus become who He is by His own agency alone--if so, how could the very first born spirit of Elohim just happen to - coincidentally - attain more light and knowledge than the rest of us? All these questions are addressed easily by MMP and there being one single path to Godhood - that one day we will do what we saw our father do. This is part of the reason the devil is working so hard to demonize men - in particular white, christian men (gender identity also is an attempt to destroy women as I believe their eternal role is coming to light. What better way to combat than say gender doesn't matter?)

This revelation is at the doors.

I really had no idea that folks would be so vehemently opposed to even considering this truth here before creating that first MMP thread. The bright side to this history is I now understand why this mystery isn't overtly spelled out in the scriptures - yet as others have said beautifully here. Once you feel the truthfulness of this one path to Godhood - so many scriptures take on a new light. For example, in the great intercessory prayer, Jesus says the following of his apostles (who are the priests that we are ordained to become)

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


How did Elohim give the Apostles to Jesus? Did he create them and then hand them over? Or, did Elohim save them when he worked out his kingdom in the office of Messiah (Yes Joseph Smith said "the office of Messiah" in the sermon, Elias, Elijah, Messiah.)?

Did Elohim ransom the apostles in a prior eternal round and purchase their right to move on to a higher capacity? I'm open to other interpretations here, but right now I can only see the Sunday school / primary explanation of us all being spirits created at the same time where Jesus was created first which is grossly oversimplified and completely unscriptural - there is a reason there are so few scriptures about premortality - and the explanation that Elohim ransomed them before taking on his role as Father and "gave" them to Jesus as Apostles. Again, are we ordained to be priests and priestesses in static eternal worlds, or worlds just like this one? We have our priests. They align to the sixth promise of overcoming, to Isaiah 6 and Matthew 13 where Jesus basically tells the Apostles they are the six-winged seraphim....eyes to see and all that. They have kept their word? When did they give their word?

Anyway - learning about the seven levels of mankind and the Davidic Servant strongly reinforced this understanding - and MMP reinforces understanding them. Imagine sharing your beliefs on this stuff innocently - praying beforehand for permission to share - feeling permission to share, and then angry folks start with the personal attacks, insults, worthiness attacks, etc. I realized about halfway through that first MMP thread that those who believe we have enough begin to lose not only their knowledge but lose their self control and agency to the adversary (Alma 12.) Before anyone falls to pieces here, consider I'm not citing this thread. I'm happy to link the first thread if you'd like to see this unfold. The angry, contentious, base behavior was itself a witness to this being true. Certainly those who are in tune with the spirit do not defend truth by the means of the adversary. I was constantly having my words deliberately twisted with later admissions to try to anger me into losing my cool and getting myself banned. I mean think about that!

Well - the reader can judge for his or herself. I don't need to name names at all. This will all come to light in time and is beginning to come to light now. Certainly I'm not perfect at avoiding contention, but as God as my witness I pray before darn near everything I post and share. Let God judge between thee and me ...

You know I will cite one obnoxious reoccurring theme in discussing MMP and deeply held, sacred beliefs. I'll be asked a question - then I'll answer it - and then I'll be accused of avoiding the question or not having answered it at all! If these anti-mmp folks are so convinced of their witness of something not being true - then why the base tactics?

I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt but it happens so often in discussing MMP especially ...

Alma 11:45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

First consider the prophets of Alma are humble enough as to admit what they don't know about the resurrection which means there are still mysteries to them surrounding the resurrection! So, to take a position that we know enough about the resurrection as to curtail any future revelations about MMP is a rather bold stance to take in ignorance - while there are yet so many who have shared their testimonies of receiving witnesses of it being true.

Next, please consider this scripture:

2 Nephi 2:22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

So which is longer? The "never" of Alma 11:45 or the "forever" of 2 Nephi 2:22? There is your answer to Alma 11:45 and every scripture that indicates a permanent state of immortality. Here's another question to consider while pondering this:

What is the difference between Adam and Eve's bodies in the Garden of Eden and our bodies when we are resurrected? Were Adam and Eve in a translated state or a resurrected state? Do we have any words from prophets that shed light on this? (we do)

Every man in the temple stands up with Adam when he awakes and arises. Why? Did we go through this same process? Will we go through this same process? Do we go through this same process?

the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 137 (25 March 1839)

Some form of MMP has been obvious to me since I was a missionary ... else there would Elohims and Jehovahs (plural) in heaven and everyone who didn't walk that path. They could never ever be equal or ever see eye to eye as to what it means to descend below all and demonstrate the greatest act of love. Descending below all is indeed a requirement to receive all the father hath.

However, to truly answer your question, I do have to at least mention that I have received personal revelation that confirms layers upon layers where MMP is but one layer reinforced by these subsequent layers. Further study and faith has been rewarded with more knowledge which equates to stronger and stronger testimony of all of these things being true, including MMP. I don't need to know the upper limit, the average or the mean number of incarnations to know there is > 1 on the path to Godhood.

Now, for those who stand vehemently against MMP, I ask you to please honestly ask yourself why? Why are you so opposed to it? Are your reasons purely doctrinal? Can you say you've stripped all pride from your understanding? Are willing to sacrifice your current understanding for truth?

Also, please ask yourself if you have ever given space to even consider it. Open your mind just a bit to consider MMP as being true - hypothetically. In this hypothetical scenario, can anyone learn any truth if they don't ever plant the seed?

Alma 32:28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.


Have you truly given place to plant a seed to try it? If you immediately reject such a notion and cast it aside, that doesn't mean the seed isn't a good, true seed. With all the many folks here who have shared their witness ... can you not muster (mustard) even trying the seed?

Let's say you plant the seed and receive witness upon witness of this truth as the seed grows and is nourished and produces fruit (Alma 32.) This has enlightened my understanding and brought joy to my heart and has increased my desire to serve the Lord. Is that not a good seed? I've seen eye to eye with many folks here and have rejoiced together in this truth and our testimonies and commitment to Jesus Christ is strengthened as our understanding grows.

One amazing aspect to this understanding is it nullifies the perfection complex with which so many members of our church suffer and what prompts our general authorities such as Elder Holland to give talks like his recent one about being perfect eventually. We're not here to be perfect. We are on a rung of a ladder that requires certain elements for us to ascend to the next rung. We are required to obey the commandments, partake of the ordinances and endure to the end ... to what end exactly if we are not perfect?

We are tasting of the powers of the world to come in the Melchizedek Priesthood, which is undoubtedly central to our probation. The three-fold mission of the church - central to our probation. Preaching the Gospel to the living and the dead - central. Then we will go on to be priests - among the 144,000 in a world to come ... and then go on to be among the patriarchs ... and then eventually an Adam and an Eve - who they themselves are not yet perfect. Does this understanding not make you excited to continue on to greater capacities? Or do you require your upward path to godhood to be free from ever increasing trials and deeper descents?

[Silver Pie]

This was my understanding for most of my life - that parents would raise their children during the Millennium, and that both would be resurrected beings. And then there were those women who were told in patriarchal blessings that their children would be raised without sin, and those women never gave birth. It was my understanding that they'd come back during the Millennium and give birth to those children they never had. So, really, it was a common teaching when RR and I were younger (I'm 10 years younger than him).

Children and mothers who have a 2nd chance to come back in the Millennium would have to be reborn . . . . unless they all come back resurected . . . . . which perhaps is what you think.

[Silver Pie]

I answered you, but of course, it will be after this post I'm quoting below, since I got on today after about three pages were added to the discussion.

In addition to my previous answer, the King Follett discourse, where JS says you've got to learn to be Gods yourselves, and that you go from one small degree to another really can imply mmp.

Also, in Alma 13, the only way it makes sense to me (people were chosen in this life because of their previous faith and good works) is if there was another mortality/testing period for at least those faithful people spoken of.

I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

[Alaris]

This was my understanding for most of my life - that parents would raise their children during the Millennium, and that both would be resurrected beings. And then there were those women who were told in patriarchal blessings that their children would be raised without sin, and those women never gave birth. It was my understanding that they'd come back during the Millennium and give birth to those children they never had. So, really, it was a common teaching when RR and I were younger (I'm 10 years younger than him).

Children and mothers who have a 2nd chance to come back in the Millennium would have to be reborn . . . . unless they all come back resurected . . . . . which perhaps is what you think.

Which spirits get to live during the millennium in mortal bodies if there is no MMP within one Earth? What did they do to deserve such a blessed mortal probation?

Don't the righteous / advanced souls (regardless as to whether MMP is involved) incarnate as prophets, apostles, teachers, missionaries, etc.? So who gets to skip all that and live in a telestial-less world?

[Silver Pie]

Now, you're confusing me.

We were taught that righteous parents (resurrected parents or parents who had not died at the time the Millennium came) who had lost infants and children would raise their resurrected children during the Millennium (because JS was quoted as saying that a bereaved mother would be able to raise that child. I think it may be in the King Follet sermon). It was understood that resurrected beings and mortals would mingle - because of the resurrection from the dead at Christ's second coming.

I, personally, believe there is no incarnation over and over again during one round of an earth's existence. I probably believe that because I can't bear the thought of having to come here over and over again. Plus, I think that might put a dent in the Atonement and in the scriptures that say this is the time to prepare and that after this life, no work can be performed. To me, that intimates no other chances in this round of this earth's mortal life.

And, surely, there are better mortalities. D&C 76, to me, implies it, when it talks about the different degrees. Telestial (hell, where we now live), terrestrial, three places called celestial, and then there are places above that.

Which spirits get to live during the millennium in mortal bodies if there is no MMP within one Earth? What did they do to deserve such a blessed mortal probation?

Don't the righteous / advanced souls (regardless as to whether MMP is involved) incarnate as prophets, apostles, teachers, missionaries, etc.? So who gets to skip all that and live in a telestial-less world?

[Silver Pie]

We were also taught that we would have the privilege of raising (resurrected) children who had no righteous resurrected parents to raise them.

Man, doctrine sure has changed a lot in the last 30+ years!!

[righteousrepublic]

We were also taught that we would have the privilege of raising (resurrected) children who had no righteous resurrected parents to raise them.

Man, doctrine sure has changed a lot in the last 30+ years!!

I claim that I don't think it is doctrine that has changed, rather, it is the attempt to canonize words spoken outside of the panoply of scripture as if it were gospel truth. Therein lies the problem.

Then we have those, of whom, refuse to take scripture at face value and insert words and meanings that are not there. In all my studies of the scriptures I have never, ever, had any inkling of an idea of any mortal lives beyond this one.

And as I have stated, there is no proof that BY or anyone else truly taught MMP.

It is true, however, that once we get onto the other side, those that go to the highest degree of the Celestial world will continue to learn and progress until they one day can be a God over worlds of their own. In essence, they will have their own eternal round.

People going to the lesser kingdoms will not have the opportunity to have their own worlds but will remain in whatever kingdom they earned for themselves. D&C 76 explains this eloquently. And it doesn't pay to add or remove words so as to make it read differently.

[Original_Intent]

Of one thing I am sure - everyone ends up exactly where they want to be, and every variable is taken into account.

I imagine a post mortal interview much like our premortal interview, except this one is a "post mortem"...sorry, I couldn't resist.

My very loosely held belief is that if we contend that we would have done better if we had been richer/poorer raised in the gospel, or any other circumstance - that there will either be evidence from a previous life that will counter it, or we will be given the "opportunity" to prove ourselves wrong. Or perhaps our minds will be open to the extent that we know what the result would have been, and we know that God knows, and so we keep our peace. Ultimately, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Christ is the savior, and that His judgement and the Father's judgements are just. The End. I'm inclined to see the most just, and efficient way to do that is to give us the experiences so we see exactly how we would fare. God already knows, but I'm convinced this mortal existence (or these mortal existences) are to reveal ourselves to ourselves. Or at least it is a part.

But as I have said, I'm not invested in MMP, and will be happy to learn what the next stage of development entails. I know I must learn and grow as I can now.

[larsenb]

I think I asked somewhere on here, but I'll ask again. Alaris and the others who believe this; Who or from what did you learn about MMP from? Did you think it up yourselves and go out looking for the proof from past leaders or did someone else share this theory with you?

I never heard about MMP from anyone until after I had received revelation that had strongly suggested MMP in the temple. We usually come to these conclusions independently. Experiences like these and finding other people who have had the same inspiration convinced us of their veracity. I highly doubt it’ll be accepted or taught at large until the millennium.

This was my experience as well.

Interesting, both you and Benaishtart.