The horror of MMPs

[Alaris]

That's fine you don't agree - however, you have been giving reasons for MMP being false that don't align with my beliefs at all. Am I allowed to point that out and respect the fact you don't believe MMP? I'm not trying to force my beliefs on you; try to put yourself in my shoes here. You believe something I don't - I tell you your belief minimizes the Savior because reasons X, Y, and Z. Yet your belief does not include X, Y, and Z at all. Would you like someone ascribing beliefs to you that you yourself don't believe and then have that person tell you that you minimize the Savior - the man who has given you the sweet joy of the forgiveness of your sins and whom you worship heart, mind, and soul?

Could you / should you not point that out?

It all depends I guess. I linked an ensign article that specifically stated that it undermines the atonement.

The reason you have some friendly backlash is because your viewed as being on the same team so your receiving the teams view on what we (as a team) ought to be believing. Its fine if you decide to view things differently but to try to adjust a basic core understanding simply will not go over very well. My suggestion to you is to treat this as a special revelation for you and keep it sacred so to speak. There is no changing your mind so that tells me that you really do believe with some degree of passion. IF there is truth to it, its not yet accepted or approved as doctrine so your going to run the risk of resistance.

Did you post all of that by the Spirit? If am in tune enough with the Spirit I'm certainly in tune with what I should / shouldn't or can / can't share. I do pray before posting - even this post. I can feel so now as I write this. I am permitted to share what I have and we should feel free to discuss mysteries without being shamed into silence for minimizing the atonement or Jesus. If I am false or teaching false doctrine, then you can be assured of that truth (lol) by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The ensign article you linked is less authoritative and further removed than the statements that support MMP. You did not include who wrote the article but cite the magazine itself as the authority. Here's who wrote it:

Spencer J. Palmer, president of the Seoul Korea Temple and professor of comparative world religions, Brigham Young University.

So, we have statements from Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Eliza R Snow, Brigham Young, Franklind Richards, and Heber C Kimball - that all indicate Joseph Smith taught MMP and these folks believed. In none of these teachings or statements is there any indication of coming back as a cat or a tree endlessly. This is a system of progression where the children of Heavenly Father become just as he is some day. This is not minimizing the Savior's importance but maximizing His power to enable us the opportunity to become as He is - literally. Not figuratively ... but literally become as Him and do His works some day.

In Texas, I often received the anti-mormon argument about our belief that we can become Gods some day. I would simply ask the question: If true, would that make God more or less powerful? More or less loving? So if we can become as God is, why can we not become as Jesus is? Joseph Smith taught that we can and we will if we are to become as God the Father.

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

I responded in kindness to your reply. Now I believe you manipulated emotions to get some sympathy then get right back to the fight. Im finished conversing with you.

Where have I manipulated emotions? That's quite an accusation. I've done nothing but try to achieve clarity here and share what I believe to be true and why I believe such.

Since you offered me a suggestion, I will offer one to you. It's unfortunate you speak of "teams" here and then accuse me of manipulating to "get right back to the fight." The adversary would have us view each other as opposing teams engaged in a "fight." We are in fact all disciples of Jesus Christ and your beliefs are just as unique and varied as anyone else's here. We should engage each other with this spirit in mind rather than one of a contest, or a game, or a fight. I should be able to share my beliefs and you yours and we should be able to differ, and cite scriptures, and quotes and not fall into contention.

Some quotes from the forum standard:

We understand from D&C 121 that "Influence can or ought to be maintained by... persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; by kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile..."

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." (Articles of Faith 1:11)

[larsenb]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

I view the MMP theory to be an unwarranted, malignant parasite embedded into scripture to deceive the very elect that should know better than to fall for it.

Well, for me, it's a subject worthy of a little thought and speculation. For instance, the idea of a born infant (and maybe aborted/unborn) going straight to the Celestial Kingdom seems like they are being deprived of a proper and necessary mortal probation. Throw all of those children/babies that died in the horrors of Nakasaki or Hiroshima or the Dresden Fire bombing, etc., etc., and it somehow seems like a stretch that all these were foreordained for that to happen to them, and didn't need or would not benefit by a longer earthly probation. And in years past, you had an exceedingly high infant mortality rate at various times.

Another idea, is that these (having died before the age of accountability, might go back to a celestial sphere staging area, to wait another chance. So, yes, they would return to Celestial spheres.

Still another and somewhat logical idea, would be that a mother (and possible father, as well) who believes that early deaths of their young ones guarantee them an eternal slot in the Celestial Kingdom, might be inclined to not do everything they could to protect the health of their kids, if they knew those deaths would get their children/infants/babies into this kingdom. A deranged portion of this category of parent might even conclude they would be doing their kids a favor by being instruments in their own childrens' demise.

One danger of nurturing the MMP idea is you could end up w/ideas that thrive in India regarding their untouchable class, etc. It may be, that once people learn and accept Christ, this could put them in a different category where they would be actually sorted for one of three kingdoms based on the life they lead after they learn of Christ.

That said, no, the MMP concept isn't part of my belief system; but remains an open question with me. Just speculation on my part.

[larsenb]

. . . ..

I see it as trying way way too hard to discover the mysteries of God by our own devices.

Not my approach. Just looking at the logic of it; mere speculation, on which I don't spend a lot of time nor invest much energy in.

[larsenb]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

A never ending round of do overs (with the same painful result) is what some do view hell as.


The Savior suffered immense pain and death for us. How many lives do we want to place on his back? For me, I want to get it right with 1 life, it feels that his gift was a grand gift and I have a duty to take it seriously and work out my salvation NOW.

MMP treats the savior like a work horse, a disposable and under appreciated man that we (his bride) can keep under appreciating and using him.

So, if such a thing exists, following Christ could get you out of the "never-ending do overs".

Your 2nd statement is interesting. I thought Christ already paid the price in Gethsemane and on the cross, for every pain, sin, etc., both before, during and after that event. I wasn't aware that he still suffers for human failings incurred after it.

I would see it more of a negation of His atonement, if we learn about Him, then continue doing evil.

[larsenb]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

Yea, I can't even make that compromise. In this case it's either or. On the one hand, we have the scriptures and prophets teachings and the Plan of Salvation and Atonement that are as clear as day on what they require--which is for each of us to live one mortal life to primarily gain a body and for many, a time of testing and then return to God for further growth and later a final judgement. The doctrines of the Gospel fit nicely into this model, which is our religion. Then you've got some people who believe in an ancient belief called Reincarnation (which they have modified and modernized) where we just keep coming back to a mortal existence for who knows how long and for what? Why would God keep sending us all back over and over? He's a loving God, why would he do this? Some might be enjoying life, but I'd say most on earth live hard, difficult lives and they don't deserve to be subjected to mortal life in endless iterations. And for what purpose? Even if they come down again and again, the chance that they find the gospel is slim, so I guess it's come back a million more times and maybe they'll find it and get their ordinances. Even claiming that there's a Savior at the end of this cycle is exhausting and once again, it makes all the scriptures false hope. I don't think you can have it both ways, it's either you have a Savior to save you, or you save yourself after eons of lifetimes.

You seem to miss my point. There wouldn't be an "end of the cycle" unless and until we accept Jesus as our Savior . . . . is one idea of looking at it. Think of the myriad, myriad people who never hear of Jesus or His atonement, who haven't had that direction in their lives. And it may be that being "sent back" isn't a function of God interving in each instance, but just a process 'put in place by God', that happens on certain conditions.

But just speculation on my part. Occasionally I'm want to ponder these things. Some people are rather built that way; others are not.

[MMbelieve]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

A never ending round of do overs (with the same painful result) is what some do view hell as.


The Savior suffered immense pain and death for us. How many lives do we want to place on his back? For me, I want to get it right with 1 life, it feels that his gift was a grand gift and I have a duty to take it seriously and work out my salvation NOW.

MMP treats the savior like a work horse, a disposable and under appreciated man that we (his bride) can keep under appreciating and using him.

So, if such a thing exists, following Christ could get you out of the "never-ending do overs".

Your 2nd statement is interesting. I thought Christ already paid the price in Gethsemane and on the cross, for every pain, sin, etc., both before, during and after that event. I wasn't aware that he still suffers for human failings incurred after it.

I would see it more of a negation of His atonement, if we learn about Him, then continue doing evil.

We could just follow Christ now as we are commanded to and be done with mortality!

Why would the atonement cover multiple mortalities of the same person in different realms? MMP believes in multiple Saviors (every man is destined to be one).

[larsenb]

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

A never ending round of do overs (with the same painful result) is what some do view hell as.


The Savior suffered immense pain and death for us. How many lives do we want to place on his back? For me, I want to get it right with 1 life, it feels that his gift was a grand gift and I have a duty to take it seriously and work out my salvation NOW.

MMP treats the savior like a work horse, a disposable and under appreciated man that we (his bride) can keep under appreciating and using him.

So, if such a thing exists, following Christ could get you out of the "never-ending do overs".

Your 2nd statement is interesting. I thought Christ already paid the price in Gethsemane and on the cross, for every pain, sin, etc., both before, during and after that event. I wasn't aware that he still suffers for human failings incurred after it.

I would see it more of a negation of His atonement, if we learn about Him, then continue doing evil.

We could just follow Christ now as we are commanded to and be done with mortality! . . . . . .

Amen to that . . . . which is my point, whether MMP's exist or not. I personally don't get much into the theological issues surrounding MMP.

[Original_Intent]

Is mortality necessary? I believe yes.
Is mortality merely a box that needs to be checked, or are there specific things that we need to learn with a veil on our minds? I believe the latter.
Can all of those things be learned in a single mortal probation, regardless of birth circumstances, length of life, or the thousands of other possible factors? I believe no.
So it is not because I have been told or that it is official doctrine, but because MMP overcomes many difficulties that I perceive in what we currently know.
I'll be the first to accept that there may be other ways, or perhaps the things I see as problems are not problems.
One final thought: We have been taught that parents will be given the opportunity to raise children who died young during the millennium. Surely they won't be resurrected, if this is doctrinal (that they will be given the opportunity to raise their children during the millennium) that seems to support MMP to my mind.

[jmack]

I know you use King Follet sermon and second hand sources, which is fine in speculating, but they are not scripture. So, do you believe there are only two or three lives? And this would be two or three lives for only men, so they can be a holy ghost or a Savior, but that would mean women don't have to have those extra lives since they aren't going to be either of those things. You seem to be seeing the Atonement as a kind of umbrella, not as saving individuals from their sins.

Please don't conflate King Follett not being scripture with speculation. This was the dispensation patriarch expounding upon the mysteries of the scriptures with many witnesses present.

Moreover, there are plenty of scriptures that indicate MMP - we've shared many here and they've been largely ignored.

I don't know how many lives there are or how many opportunities are given. Do I need to have that answer before I can have faith in the layers of knowledge I've received so far? I believe there are seven levels of progression - and I believe there are very likely 7 levels within the 7th. I suspect that each patriarch governs each order of mankind in turn, with the 7th being governing the patriarchs themselves as a Michael / Adam. Upon completion of the 7th step, I believe a man may go on to be a Savior of worlds. This is the 7th promise of overcoming given to the 7th angel of the 7th church of Asia - Revelation says these angels are the 7 spirits of God.

JST Rev. 3:1 And unto the servant of the church in Sardis, write; These things saith he who hath the seven stars, which are the seven servants of God; I know thy ...

(the verses below aren't part of the JST)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So the promise unto the patriarchs (4th sign and token) is to overcome as Jesus overcame. The promise for overcoming is to overcome again ... as Jesus overcame. You and others keep saying MMP isn't in the scriptures. There it is right there! We know the angels of this world are born upon this world. By modern revelation, we know Michael = Adam, and Gabriel = Noah. We know these are the principal archangels. The promise Jesus has given these men specifically is that as they overcome ... they can go on and overcome again as Jesus overcame. Be ye therefore perfect as I am perfect comes into clear focus. Jesus showed us the path to perfection - literally.

If we believe we can become as Heavenly Father is, why is it blasphemy to become as Jesus - a lesser being to Elohim? Jesus descended below all before receiving all. The descent matched the ascent. Yet, we are going to ascend above all without doing the same works? Who will save our future spirit children? Future Saviors or the current Savior?

Oh no, King Follet is not scripture. and I've already explained that you and a fraction of a percent of church members interpret some scriptures to prove MMP, when the rest of us 99.999 percent don't. Including apostles and prophets. It's not a church doctrine, it's not supported by scripture. Be very careful about teaching this to any other members because if a member tells your leaders you could be called in to explain yourself and if you are told not to teach it anymore, if you don't comply you could face church discipline. If you go with this attitude, it won't go well with you.

Did I say King Follett is scripture? It's certainly not speculation - the many witnesses to the sermon suggests what we have written is an accurate account of Joseph Smith teaching this principle - expounding upon scripture. Would you feel differently if you were present? This is our dispensation patriarch expounding upon the scriptures. The scriptures themselves say that these dominions and the nature and order of Gods will be revealed in the future, and he was giving a taste of what's to come. To discard what he taught as speculation ...

The scriptures themselves says there is much yet to be revealed - so naturally there will be scriptures that support, indicate, and suggest such mysteries as MMP. If you want to discuss scriptures you think make MMP impossible, I am more than happy to expound upon why and how I believe they do not.

There are many witnesses of Joseph Smith teaching MMP - there are many accounts of his contemporaries believing MMP. I'm happy to post these accounts here but you called them second hand - these are firsthand witnesses of what Joseph Smith taught. That's like calling a reporter who writes down a statement made by Donald Trump and then publishing it verbatim a secondhand account. Not so at all.

I believe something Joseph Smith actually taught - with many witnesses to teaching this principle on many occassions - by the mouth of two or three witnesses. Attempts to isolate me as the genesis of this belief - this truth - is uninformed.

You insist that Joseph Smith actually taught this and there were many witnesses to it, but yet, here's the fact. It's not part of our doctrine, it never was, it isn't now. That is such a problem for you and the claims you are making because events over almost 200 years of church history don't support your claims. If Joseph Smith did actually teach it, then why don't we have his writings on it? Why wasn't it ever part of the beliefs as others were. Polygamy and Blacks not holding the priesthood are in our history, but MMP is not. Why isn't it something that we members should have been taught and have testimonies of? It's such a game changer, if it was an actual doctrine, it would change everything we know about our religion. Why isn't in the missionary discussions and even in our scriptures? I don't think you can give a reasonable explanation for why it's not a part of our doctrine if the Prophet did actually reveal and teach it.

[righteousrepublic]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

Yea, I can't even make that compromise. In this case it's either or. On the one hand, we have the scriptures and prophets teachings and the Plan of Salvation and Atonement that are as clear as day on what they require--which is for each of us to live one mortal life to primarily gain a body and for many, a time of testing and then return to God for further growth and later a final judgement. The doctrines of the Gospel fit nicely into this model, which is our religion. Then you've got some people who believe in an ancient belief called Reincarnation (which they have modified and modernized) where we just keep coming back to a mortal existence for who knows how long and for what? Why would God keep sending us all back over and over? He's a loving God, why would he do this? Some might be enjoying life, but I'd say most on earth live hard, difficult lives and they don't deserve to be subjected to mortal life in endless iterations. And for what purpose? Even if they come down again and again, the chance that they find the gospel is slim, so I guess it's come back a million more times and maybe they'll find it and get their ordinances. Even claiming that there's a Savior at the end of this cycle is exhausting and once again, it makes all the scriptures false hope. I don't think you can have it both ways, it's either you have a Savior to save you, or you save yourself after eons of lifetimes.

And, if we had to keep coming back over and over, why then would there be such a powerful need for the work for the dead, ie, baptisms, confirmations, ordinances and all temple work, including marriage sealings for the dead?

There is no logical reason for coming back over and over and still having work for the dead in play. Any notion that MMP exists...really sucks big time.

As a side note: it has never, ever been confirmed that BY taught Adam being our God. Other statements he has made does not confirm or corroborate that ideology. It has been determined that some of the things he said were not fully understood.

[righteousrepublic]

Where, written within these pages does BY teach Adam-God? Someone claiming to be a prophet would have to teach the same doctrine, no matter the setting, or he would not be a true prophet.

[Davka]

Please don't conflate King Follett not being scripture with speculation. This was the dispensation patriarch expounding upon the mysteries of the scriptures with many witnesses present.

Moreover, there are plenty of scriptures that indicate MMP - we've shared many here and they've been largely ignored.

I don't know how many lives there are or how many opportunities are given. Do I need to have that answer before I can have faith in the layers of knowledge I've received so far? I believe there are seven levels of progression - and I believe there are very likely 7 levels within the 7th. I suspect that each patriarch governs each order of mankind in turn, with the 7th being governing the patriarchs themselves as a Michael / Adam. Upon completion of the 7th step, I believe a man may go on to be a Savior of worlds. This is the 7th promise of overcoming given to the 7th angel of the 7th church of Asia - Revelation says these angels are the 7 spirits of God.

JST Rev. 3:1 And unto the servant of the church in Sardis, write; These things saith he who hath the seven stars, which are the seven servants of God; I know thy ...

(the verses below aren't part of the JST)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So the promise unto the patriarchs (4th sign and token) is to overcome as Jesus overcame. The promise for overcoming is to overcome again ... as Jesus overcame. You and others keep saying MMP isn't in the scriptures. There it is right there! We know the angels of this world are born upon this world. By modern revelation, we know Michael = Adam, and Gabriel = Noah. We know these are the principal archangels. The promise Jesus has given these men specifically is that as they overcome ... they can go on and overcome again as Jesus overcame. Be ye therefore perfect as I am perfect comes into clear focus. Jesus showed us the path to perfection - literally.

If we believe we can become as Heavenly Father is, why is it blasphemy to become as Jesus - a lesser being to Elohim? Jesus descended below all before receiving all. The descent matched the ascent. Yet, we are going to ascend above all without doing the same works? Who will save our future spirit children? Future Saviors or the current Savior?

Oh no, King Follet is not scripture. and I've already explained that you and a fraction of a percent of church members interpret some scriptures to prove MMP, when the rest of us 99.999 percent don't. Including apostles and prophets. It's not a church doctrine, it's not supported by scripture. Be very careful about teaching this to any other members because if a member tells your leaders you could be called in to explain yourself and if you are told not to teach it anymore, if you don't comply you could face church discipline. If you go with this attitude, it won't go well with you.

Did I say King Follett is scripture? It's certainly not speculation - the many witnesses to the sermon suggests what we have written is an accurate account of Joseph Smith teaching this principle - expounding upon scripture. Would you feel differently if you were present? This is our dispensation patriarch expounding upon the scriptures. The scriptures themselves say that these dominions and the nature and order of Gods will be revealed in the future, and he was giving a taste of what's to come. To discard what he taught as speculation ...

The scriptures themselves says there is much yet to be revealed - so naturally there will be scriptures that support, indicate, and suggest such mysteries as MMP. If you want to discuss scriptures you think make MMP impossible, I am more than happy to expound upon why and how I believe they do not.

There are many witnesses of Joseph Smith teaching MMP - there are many accounts of his contemporaries believing MMP. I'm happy to post these accounts here but you called them second hand - these are firsthand witnesses of what Joseph Smith taught. That's like calling a reporter who writes down a statement made by Donald Trump and then publishing it verbatim a secondhand account. Not so at all.

I believe something Joseph Smith actually taught - with many witnesses to teaching this principle on many occassions - by the mouth of two or three witnesses. Attempts to isolate me as the genesis of this belief - this truth - is uninformed.

You insist that Joseph Smith actually taught this and there were many witnesses to it, but yet, here's the fact. It's not part of our doctrine, it never was, it isn't now. That is such a problem for you and the claims you are making because events over almost 200 years of church history don't support your claims. If Joseph Smith did actually teach it, then why don't we have his writings on it? Why wasn't it ever part of the beliefs as others were. Polygamy and Blacks not holding the priesthood are in our history, but MMP is not. Why isn't it something that we members should have been taught and have testimonies of? It's such a game changer, if it was an actual doctrine, it would change everything we know about our religion. Why isn't in the missionary discussions and even in our scriptures? I don't think you can give a reasonable explanation for why it's not a part of our doctrine if the Prophet did actually reveal and teach it.

I’m confused.

Did you read the big list of quotes Alaris just provided? I’m not sure you could and then ask why MMP isn’t part of the church’s history. You could make the argument that it is a small part, but it is a part, nonetheless.

I disagree that knowledge of MMP being true is a “game changer” for the vast majority of the world, and the church, even. Can you imagine if it were part of the missionary discussions? “Hey there, we are here to teach you about Jesus and why you need to follow him....” Then a few discussion later “We’ll, yes, you will come to Earth again.” No one would ever get baptized, because they would assume they will just take care of it later (kind of like some people already assume about the afterlife/Spirit World). MMP being true changes nothing about how the gospel of Jesus Christ applies in our current life. Follow the path, and whether we are done with mortality after death, or there’s another world and mortal probation waiting for us, you’ll be fine regardless.

I believe MMP is a truth that can only be appreciated once a person has a solid grasp and understanding of the basic principles and ordinances of the gospel. (Not to say that a person who doesn’t appreciate doesn’t have a grasp on those things). Because MMP is really just living the same gospel more than once, progressing step by step.

Another Brigham Young quote supporting MMP for women:

Many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with offspring. You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. If you are faithful to your covenants, you will become mothers of nations. You will become Eves to earths like this; and when you have assisted in peopling one earth there are millions of earths still in the course of creation. (Journal of Discourses, 8:208; October 14, 1860)

“Mothers of nations:” Sarah, Hagar, Rachel, Rebekah, Leah.

“Eves to Earths like this.” Hmmm...

[Original_Intent]

Yes, Davka, I have had the same thoughts, that most people would postpone repentance, progression, any number of inconvenient things and disregard the instruction "THIS life is the time to prepare to meet God." And most definitely truths are withheld that would be harmful, so....not saying it's doctrine, but it makes sense to me why it isn't taught openly if it is.

[jmack]

Oh no, King Follet is not scripture. and I've already explained that you and a fraction of a percent of church members interpret some scriptures to prove MMP, when the rest of us 99.999 percent don't. Including apostles and prophets. It's not a church doctrine, it's not supported by scripture. Be very careful about teaching this to any other members because if a member tells your leaders you could be called in to explain yourself and if you are told not to teach it anymore, if you don't comply you could face church discipline. If you go with this attitude, it won't go well with you.

Did I say King Follett is scripture? It's certainly not speculation - the many witnesses to the sermon suggests what we have written is an accurate account of Joseph Smith teaching this principle - expounding upon scripture. Would you feel differently if you were present? This is our dispensation patriarch expounding upon the scriptures. The scriptures themselves say that these dominions and the nature and order of Gods will be revealed in the future, and he was giving a taste of what's to come. To discard what he taught as speculation ...

The scriptures themselves says there is much yet to be revealed - so naturally there will be scriptures that support, indicate, and suggest such mysteries as MMP. If you want to discuss scriptures you think make MMP impossible, I am more than happy to expound upon why and how I believe they do not.

There are many witnesses of Joseph Smith teaching MMP - there are many accounts of his contemporaries believing MMP. I'm happy to post these accounts here but you called them second hand - these are firsthand witnesses of what Joseph Smith taught. That's like calling a reporter who writes down a statement made by Donald Trump and then publishing it verbatim a secondhand account. Not so at all.

I believe something Joseph Smith actually taught - with many witnesses to teaching this principle on many occassions - by the mouth of two or three witnesses. Attempts to isolate me as the genesis of this belief - this truth - is uninformed.

You insist that Joseph Smith actually taught this and there were many witnesses to it, but yet, here's the fact. It's not part of our doctrine, it never was, it isn't now. That is such a problem for you and the claims you are making because events over almost 200 years of church history don't support your claims. If Joseph Smith did actually teach it, then why don't we have his writings on it? Why wasn't it ever part of the beliefs as others were. Polygamy and Blacks not holding the priesthood are in our history, but MMP is not. Why isn't it something that we members should have been taught and have testimonies of? It's such a game changer, if it was an actual doctrine, it would change everything we know about our religion. Why isn't in the missionary discussions and even in our scriptures? I don't think you can give a reasonable explanation for why it's not a part of our doctrine if the Prophet did actually reveal and teach it.

I’m confused.

Did you read the big list of quotes Alaris just provided? I’m not sure you could and then ask why MMP isn’t part of the church’s history. You could make the argument that it is a small part, but it is a part, nonetheless.

I disagree that knowledge of MMP being true is a “game changer” for the vast majority of the world, and the church, even. Can you imagine if it were part of the missionary discussions? “Hey there, we are here to teach you about Jesus and why you need to follow him....” Then a few discussion later “We’ll, yes, you will come to Earth again.” No one would ever get baptized, because they would assume they will just take care of it later (kind of like some people already assume about the afterlife/Spirit World). MMP being true changes nothing about how the gospel of Jesus Christ applies in our current life. Follow the path, and whether we are done with mortality after death, or there’s another world and mortal probation waiting for us, you’ll be fine regardless.

I believe MMP is a truth that can only be appreciated once a person has a solid grasp and understanding of the basic principles and ordinances of the gospel. (Not to say that a person who doesn’t appreciate doesn’t have a grasp on those things). Because MMP is really just living the same gospel more than once, progressing step by step.

Another Brigham Young quote supporting MMP for women:

Many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with offspring. You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. If you are faithful to your covenants, you will become mothers of nations. You will become Eves to earths like this; and when you have assisted in peopling one earth there are millions of earths still in the course of creation. (Journal of Discourses, 8:208; October 14, 1860)

“Mothers of nations:” Sarah, Hagar, Rachel, Rebekah, Leah.

“Eves to Earths like this.” Hmmm...

Those quotes don't prove that Joseph Smith taught it as doctrine in the church because if it was meant to be a doctrine, it would have been presented to the members and we'd have more than the handful of quotes. It suggests there was speculation, but not doctrine. If it was doctrine, we wouldn't be having this argument right now. And you're right, MMP would be the death of missionary work, it's the death of temple work and even repentance, since it makes those things so much less important. If it was true, would it be ethical to hide it? And you're doing the same thing Alaris does, that quote from Brigham Young doesn't mean MMP to me. It doesn't prove MMP to me at all. We believe that when we become Gods we will have spirit children and populate our own world, that's the assumption, but dying and living over again, 3 or 3,000 times wasn't ever part of that. We have a Savior who atoned for us that allows us to one day become Gods and being incarnated over and over again in human form was never part of the plan of Salvation as explained to us. Some come here and try to tell us we somehow missed it, that's just not true.

[righteousrepublic]

For years and years, the prophets have told us to read the Book of Mormon, read the Book of Mormon, READ...THE...BOOK...OF...MORMON, right? And guess what is in this book that teaches so well, what exactly happens to us once we leave this life, this life, not any other life, this life.
Like Alaris wants us to read his posts in full so we can come to an understanding of his teachings, I have posted Alma 40-42 many times, yet I get no responses. These chapters explain the restoration so clearly, there is no doubt in my mind that MMP is a bunch of hooey. Yet, we keep getting hammered with quotes not even canonized as supposed supportive proof. Alma was a prophet and I don't consider him to be a stupid, uninformed reprobate. He was in the process of teaching his own sons the plan of restoration so they would understand it. And we are to understand it as well.

The Book of Mormon teaches us so many great truths that by just studying these truths can and does lift our spirits. MMP has no place within these teachings.

For those that believe in MMP, that's fine...but please allow us that do not believe it because of our own studies, prayer and research to believe what we know to be true without you saying, you just don't understand, you've got to read all my posts in full so you will understand. Please allow our knowledge to suit us as yours does you. Thank you.

[righteousrepublic]

Many of the sisters grieve because they are not blessed with offspring. You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. If you are faithful to your covenants, you will become mothers of nations. You will become Eves to earths like this; and when you have assisted in peopling one earth there are millions of earths still in the course of creation. (Journal of Discourses, 8:208; October 14, 1860)

The word Eve depicts...mother of all living

You will see the time when you will have millions of children around you. Yes, upon a female being faithful to her covenants, she will be a mother to millions of spirits awaiting to go to an earth and gain bodies. This does not mean, in any sense, that she will become a living mother, in the flesh, on that earth. One of the spirits awaiting to go down will fulfill that role.

You will become Eves to earths like this; and when you have assisted in peopling one earth there are millions of earths still in the course of creation. As a wife to a God, she will be an Eve over all their creations, but each earth-like planet will have their own first female born on it, thus, them becoming an Eve of all the people succeeding her and her mate...he being called Adam.

[Jesef]

Don’t be afraid if MMP, cycles of mortality, is true. It’s not “postponing repentance” - it’s continuing repentance/change/progression/evolution/ascension through the Grace/Love/Atonement of God/Christ. “Perfection”/“exaltation” is not achieved easily. The Atonement doesn’t do the climbing or choosing for you - it’s not fairy dust or an elevator to the top. Whether you believe that step by step increase occurs in multiple mortal lives or just a really long afterlife doesn’t really matter - but opposition & choice (duality) are required to learn & grow, so gaining all that experience in a constant paradisiacal/heavenly afterlife doesn’t seem to work - which is why Adam/Eve had to partake of the metaphorical fruit & leave the metaphorical garden/paradise in order to learn for themselves. Christ/Atonement doesn’t do the learning, choosing, experience-gaining for you. It just enables you to keep climbing until you reach the summit. Some suppose that they have a guaranteed ride or place at the summit, but it’s really far in the future (eventual). We like to believe easy things because it helps us cope, it’s comforting. Which is also why so many people think/believe they are more special/chosen. Just plant the seed with an open mind & see if it sticks & grows. Peace. Life is good & so is God!

[righteousrepublic]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

I view the MMP theory to be an unwarranted, malignant parasite embedded into scripture to deceive the very elect that should know better than to fall for it.

Well, for me, it's a subject worthy of a little thought and speculation. For instance, the idea of a born infant (and maybe aborted/unborn) going straight to the Celestial Kingdom seems like they are being deprived of a proper and necessary mortal probation. Perhaps this is what the Millennium is for. We are to understand that mothers who lost their child/children will have an opportunity to raise them during that time. Aborted children, I don't think so, unless assigned to a different mother who really cares for them. Now I am speculating. Throw all of those children/babies that died in the horrors of Nakasaki or Hiroshima or the Dresden Fire bombing, etc., etc., and it somehow seems like a stretch that all these were foreordained for that to happen to them, and didn't need or would not benefit by a longer earthly probation. Our main purpose for earth life is to gain our body...our second estate. Whether as an infant or an eight year old, it doesn't matter, they all got their body. And in years past, you had an exceedingly high infant mortality rate at various times.

Another idea, is that these (having died before the age of accountability, might go back to a celestial sphere staging area, to wait another chance. So, yes, they would return to Celestial spheres. As I stated, these children all got their boby so they can go on the Celestial Kingdom and remain there.

Still another and somewhat logical idea, would be that a mother (and possible father, as well) who believes that early deaths of their young ones guarantee them an eternal slot in the Celestial Kingdom, might be inclined to not do everything they could to protect the health of their kids, if they knew those deaths would get their children/infants/babies into this kingdom. A deranged portion of this category of parent might even conclude they would be doing their kids a favor by being instruments in their own childrens' demise.

One danger of nurturing the MMP idea is you could end up w/ideas that thrive in India regarding their untouchable class, etc. It may be, that once people learn and accept Christ, this could put them in a different category where they would be actually sorted for one of three kingdoms based on the life they lead after they learn of Christ. Those who lived here on earth without the law, Christ's teachings and gospel, will have an opportunity to learn these things after death, and if they accept it they will not be assigned the Telestial kingdom, but will have opportunity for higher glory.

That said, no, the MMP concept isn't part of my belief system; but remains an open question with me. Just speculation on my part. Just don't allow it to send you off onto forbidden paths and become lost. Lehi.

[righteousrepublic]

Don’t be afraid if MMP, cycles of mortality, is true. It’s not “postponing repentance” - it’s continuing repentance/change/progression/evolution/ascension through the Grace/Love/Atonement of God/Christ. “Perfection”/“exaltation” is not achieved easily. The Atonement doesn’t do the climbing or choosing for you - it’s not fairy dust or an elevator to the top. Whether you believe that step by step increase occurs in multiple mortal lives or just a really long afterlife doesn’t really matter - but opposition & choice (duality) are required to learn & grow, so gaining all that experience in a constant paradisiacal/heavenly afterlife doesn’t seem to work - which is why Adam/Eve had to partake of the metaphorical fruit & leave the metaphorical garden/paradise in order to learn for themselves. Christ/Atonement doesn’t do the learning, choosing, experience-gaining for you. It just enables you to keep climbing until you reach the summit. Some suppose that they have a guaranteed ride or place at the summit, but it’s really far in the future (eventual). We like to believe easy things because it helps us cope, it’s comforting. Which is also why so many people think/believe they are more special/chosen. Just plant the seed with an open mind & see if it sticks & grows. Peace. Life is good & so is God!

For me, I'll stick with the shortcut. One life, one death, spirit and body never to be divided again, paradise, resurrection and then onward to the Celestial kingdom where I will remain forever. For those believing in MMP, have fun, I have no use for such a bumpy ride. Nor do I have any desire to insult Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for me.

For those believing in MMP, they must believe that all the Holy Prophets are having to go through many lives as well. After all, they are and were imperfect, fallible human beings, right? So why are we told that when we die we will all go back to God and see all the Holy Prophets there, if they're supposed to be off to some other world living the life of a Pygmy or maybe an ant.

Alma 5:24
24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

What? I thought that these pure and clean men had to go to some other planet to live another life, maybe more. Strange.

Oh, I get it These men spent one life here, repented of their sins and were presented to the Father as perfect men through the blood of the Lamb. Simple and effective, right? We all have the same chance as these fine men. MMP? Not

[Jesef]

The shortcut, that’s funny, as if there’s a fast-&-easy track to eternal evolution/progression. Believe as you wish, literally. Doesn’t matter, doesn’t change reality. Either way you have to just keep living & striving. But think about it - is the Atonement/Grace making you perfect & automatically upgrading you to awesome eternal perfection right now? Or is it just allowing you to continue learning & improving each day? Is it doing the work for you right now or do you have to do the work & make the choices & gain the experience? We’re in the midst of eternity & eternal progression right now, this is how it works. If you’re unhappy or unfulfilled, fairy dust isn’t going to fix your being, it’s in you - you have evolutionary work & growing to do. Omnipotence & Omniscience aren’t going to be “bestowed” upon you, you have to earn it, Grace just makes it so we can keep ascending. We get to rest, relax, & enjoy Heaven in between rounds. As I understand it. But the veils are there to keep us focused. Doesn’t matter what you believe about this really, you’re living it, you’re in the game - you can believe in Santa & Elves if it helps you get through a day & make better choices. Just choose Love/Good - that’s all that really matters. If you want to learn “the mysteries”, you have to be open to being wrong about some of your embedded beliefs/assumptions. But I can’t prove it. It answers a lot of questions & fits a lot of observations such as: if it’s one & done, we only get one shot at mortality (can only take the test once), why aren’t we (humanity, all souls) waiting in the premortal spirit realm until we are just as mature as Jesus was, 99%+ sure & ready we’re going to ace it? Why do so many souls come down SO immature & unprepared & risk it all & bomb it? Think about it. It makes no sense. And it makes no sense because the assumptions are incorrect. If you think MMP is horrifying, then you think life is horrible, which means you’re quite unhappy deep down - life’s too hard, life sucks, or whatever negative connotation you’re giving it. That’s funny when compared to “godhood” - more responsibility, more power, more work. It’s like being a disgruntled employee & thinking you’d be happier if you were President of the United States, when you can’t even handle the stress of doing dishes or something. Anyway, if all your beliefs do is comfort you & massage your ego, you won’t learn anything new. Choice. I think this is one reason why LDS/Mormonism has lost a lot of its fire - just the same old stuff, repeated over & over, nothing new, no vibrancy.

[righteousrepublic]

The shortcut, that’s funny, as if there’s a fast-&-easy track to eternal evolution/progression. Believe as you wish, literally. Doesn’t matter, doesn’t change reality. Either way you have to just keep living & striving. But think about it - is the Atonement/Grace making you perfect & automatically upgrading you to awesome eternal perfection right now? This is the promise, so yes. Or is it just allowing you to continue learning & improving each day? This is part of the plan. Is it doing the work for you right now or do you have to do the work & make the choices & gain the experience? We grow line upon line precept upon precept. We’re in the midst of eternity & eternal progression right now, this is how it works. Maybe. If you’re unhappy or unfulfilled, fairy dust isn’t going to fix your being, it’s in you - you have evolutionary work & growing to do. Who needs fairy dust when we have the Holy Ghost, the Savior's teachings and his yoke about us? Omnipotence & Omniscience aren’t going to be “bestowed” upon you, you have to earn it, Grace just makes it so we can keep ascending. We are saved by grace, after all we can do, meaning good works and commitment. We get to rest, relax, & enjoy Heaven in between rounds. Maybe for you, but not me. The Lord's way, detailed in the Book of Mormon, is much better. As I understand it. But the veils are there to keep us focused. Doesn’t matter what you believe about this really, you’re living it, you’re in the game - you can believe in Santa & Elves if it helps you get through a day & make better choices. Just choose Love/Good - that’s all that really matters. If you want to learn “the mysteries”, you have to be open to being wrong about some of your embedded beliefs/assumptions. No I don't, especially from anyone on an open forum. But I can’t prove it. You're absolutely correct. It answers a lot of questions & fits a lot of observations such as: if it’s one & done, we only get one shot at mortality (can only take the test once), why aren’t we (humanity, all souls) waiting in the premortal spirit realm until we are just as mature as Jesus was, 99%+ sure & ready we’re going to ace it? Why do so many souls come down SO immature & unprepared & risk it all & bomb it? That was their choice. We learn about these choices in the Book of Mormon. Think about it. It makes no sense. And it makes no sense because the assumptions are incorrect. If you think MMP is horrifying, then you think life is horrible, which means you’re quite unhappy deep down - life’s too hard, life sucks, or whatever negative connotation you’re giving it. Not me, pal. I'm joyful knowing I'll get to go see the Savior, Heavenly Father, my relatives and others once I pass on, instead of stressing about having to do this stuff all over again. I think you've got things turned around. That’s funny when compared to “godhood” - more responsibility, more power, more work. It’s like being a disgruntled employee & thinking you’d be happier if you were President of the United States, when you can’t even handle the stress of doing dishes or something. Anyway, if all your beliefs do is comfort you & massage your ego, you won’t learn anything new. Especially, MMP and other false doctrines. Choice. I think this is one reason why LDS/Mormonism has lost a lot of its fire - just the same old stuff, repeated over & over, nothing new, no vibrancy. People make it what they want out of it, some turn and go down forbidden paths and others follow the path to the Tree of Life. The latter never gets stale or dull. I'm sorry to have burst you bubble, I'm just not inclined to be gullible.

Taking the shortcut may be funny to you, but I meant what I said...so laugh away, it really matters not. I'm already 72 so my life is coming to an close in the not distant future. And I'm not concerned or antsy about having to do another life time, no matter what some of you pitch. Believe as you wish, I do. However, my knowledge and strong testimony come straight from the scriptures.

And the way is easy because the Lord, Jesus Christ says it is.

Matt 11:28-30
28 ¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is reality, so deal with it.

[Jesef]

The shortcut, that’s funny, as if there’s a fast-&-easy track to eternal evolution/progression. Believe as you wish, literally. Doesn’t matter, doesn’t change reality. Either way you have to just keep living & striving. But think about it - is the Atonement/Grace making you perfect & automatically upgrading you to awesome eternal perfection right now? This is the promise, so yes. Or is it just allowing you to continue learning & improving each day? This is part of the plan. Is it doing the work for you right now or do you have to do the work & make the choices & gain the experience? We grow line upon line precept upon precept. We’re in the midst of eternity & eternal progression right now, this is how it works. Maybe. If you’re unhappy or unfulfilled, fairy dust isn’t going to fix your being, it’s in you - you have evolutionary work & growing to do. Who needs fairy dust when we have the Holy Ghost, the Savior's teachings and his yoke about us? Omnipotence & Omniscience aren’t going to be “bestowed” upon you, you have to earn it, Grace just makes it so we can keep ascending. We are saved by grace, after all we can do, meaning good works and commitment. We get to rest, relax, & enjoy Heaven in between rounds. Maybe for you, but not me. The Lord's way, detailed in the Book of Mormon, is much better. As I understand it. But the veils are there to keep us focused. Doesn’t matter what you believe about this really, you’re living it, you’re in the game - you can believe in Santa & Elves if it helps you get through a day & make better choices. Just choose Love/Good - that’s all that really matters. If you want to learn “the mysteries”, you have to be open to being wrong about some of your embedded beliefs/assumptions. No I don't, especially from anyone on an open forum. But I can’t prove it. You're absolutely correct. It answers a lot of questions & fits a lot of observations such as: if it’s one & done, we only get one shot at mortality (can only take the test once), why aren’t we (humanity, all souls) waiting in the premortal spirit realm until we are just as mature as Jesus was, 99%+ sure & ready we’re going to ace it? Why do so many souls come down SO immature & unprepared & risk it all & bomb it? That was their choice. We learn about these choices in the Book of Mormon. Think about it. It makes no sense. And it makes no sense because the assumptions are incorrect. If you think MMP is horrifying, then you think life is horrible, which means you’re quite unhappy deep down - life’s too hard, life sucks, or whatever negative connotation you’re giving it. Not me, pal. I'm joyful knowing I'll get to go see the Savior, Heavenly Father, my relatives and others once I pass on, instead of stressing about having to do this stuff all over again. I think you've got things turned around. That’s funny when compared to “godhood” - more responsibility, more power, more work. It’s like being a disgruntled employee & thinking you’d be happier if you were President of the United States, when you can’t even handle the stress of doing dishes or something. Anyway, if all your beliefs do is comfort you & massage your ego, you won’t learn anything new. Especially, MMP and other false doctrines. Choice. I think this is one reason why LDS/Mormonism has lost a lot of its fire - just the same old stuff, repeated over & over, nothing new, no vibrancy. People make it what they want out of it, some turn and go down forbidden paths and others follow the path to the Tree of Life. The latter never gets stale or dull. I'm sorry to have burst you bubble, I'm just not inclined to be gullible.

Taking the shortcut may be funny to you, but I meant what I said...so laugh away, it really matters not. I'm already 72 so my life is coming to an close in the not distant future. And I'm not concerned or antsy about having to do another life time, no matter what some of you pitch. Believe as you wish, I do. However, my knowledge and strong testimony come straight from the scriptures.

And the way is easy because the Lord, Jesus Christ says it is.

Matt 11:28-30
28 ¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is reality, so deal with it.

That's wonderful, man! You are probably pretty close to the exit, depending on your health. President Nelson is pushing 95, though, & that's not totally outrageous these days, so you could have a solid 25 left - that's a lot of time to learn & grow. You're not perfect, though. If you think you're "done", you're just kidding yourself. Like I said, though, it doesn't matter whether you believe in MMP or not, but believing that you're "done" is actually somewhat harmful to your progress & learning, because it stops you from really trying or being open to learning - which is evidenced by some of your comments. That's just ego. You are not a God, you are not exalted, you are not omnipotent or omniscient. Maybe this quote will help you - it's from Joseph's King Follett (funeral) eulogy/discourse:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ser ... sermon.htm

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.

I know it doesn't say or even necessarily imply MMP - that's not the point. The point is you have A LOT more work ahead of you. How can it be great or hard work if there's no opposition/challenge/duality/choice? There's no "shortcut" to growth/ascension. God doesn't wave his wand & make you a God. If you're tired/exhausted, you need a break - no worries - that's coming. It's a Benevolent Loving Divine Intelligent system/program. Anyway, you can learn new stuff if you open your mind & soften your heart. You can learn & grow the most at the end of your life, but it's hard work to stay pliable, motivated, humble. I'm not judging you, personally, just general observations that may or may not apply to you. Ha, ha, & this is an anonymous online forum, so take it or leave it (but please don't choose to be offended - none intended). Peace.

[Alaris]

For me, I'll stick with the shortcut. One life, one death, spirit and body never to be divided again, paradise, resurrection and then onward to the Celestial kingdom where I will remain forever. For those believing in MMP, have fun, I have no use for such a bumpy ride. Nor do I have any desire to insult Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for me.

For those believing in MMP, they must believe that all the Holy Prophets are having to go through many lives as well. After all, they are and were imperfect, fallible human beings, right? So why are we told that when we die we will all go back to God and see all the Holy Prophets there, if they're supposed to be off to some other world living the life of a Pygmy or maybe an ant.

Alma 5:24
24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

What? I thought that these pure and clean men had to go to some other planet to live another life, maybe more. Strange.

Oh, I get it These men spent one life here, repented of their sins and were presented to the Father as perfect men through the blood of the Lamb. Simple and effective, right? We all have the same chance as these fine men. MMP? Not

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are perfect already? Where is that written? I think you meant they're "pure" rather than "perfect." If there were shortcuts to perfection, I'm sure there would be a scripture somewhere about that.

D&C 49:8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

So are those Holy Men that we know not of perfect? And what does it mean to be perfect? Does it mean you are clean or does it mean you've perfected your passions, your gifts, your abilities, your leadership, your management, your administration, etc.?

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. ~ Joseph Smith

Like Jesef said, whether you believe this "great while" occurs in one resurrected body or in future probations ... If only we had some quotes about whether we have to be a Holy Ghost or a Savior along the one path to Godhood ...

And, if it's a long while, how has Abraham already enterred his exaltation unless he's already been on this path for "a great while" - unless there's some information out there about there being layers or gradations of exaltation....

[larsenb]

Please don't conflate King Follett not being scripture with speculation. This was the dispensation patriarch expounding upon the mysteries of the scriptures with many witnesses present.

Moreover, there are plenty of scriptures that indicate MMP - we've shared many here and they've been largely ignored.

I don't know how many lives there are or how many opportunities are given. Do I need to have that answer before I can have faith in the layers of knowledge I've received so far? I believe there are seven levels of progression - and I believe there are very likely 7 levels within the 7th. I suspect that each patriarch governs each order of mankind in turn, with the 7th being governing the patriarchs themselves as a Michael / Adam. Upon completion of the 7th step, I believe a man may go on to be a Savior of worlds. This is the 7th promise of overcoming given to the 7th angel of the 7th church of Asia - Revelation says these angels are the 7 spirits of God.

JST Rev. 3:1 And unto the servant of the church in Sardis, write; These things saith he who hath the seven stars, which are the seven servants of God; I know thy ...

(the verses below aren't part of the JST)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So the promise unto the patriarchs (4th sign and token) is to overcome as Jesus overcame. The promise for overcoming is to overcome again ... as Jesus overcame. You and others keep saying MMP isn't in the scriptures. There it is right there! We know the angels of this world are born upon this world. By modern revelation, we know Michael = Adam, and Gabriel = Noah. We know these are the principal archangels. The promise Jesus has given these men specifically is that as they overcome ... they can go on and overcome again as Jesus overcame. Be ye therefore perfect as I am perfect comes into clear focus. Jesus showed us the path to perfection - literally.

If we believe we can become as Heavenly Father is, why is it blasphemy to become as Jesus - a lesser being to Elohim? Jesus descended below all before receiving all. The descent matched the ascent. Yet, we are going to ascend above all without doing the same works? Who will save our future spirit children? Future Saviors or the current Savior?

Oh no, King Follet is not scripture. and I've already explained that you and a fraction of a percent of church members interpret some scriptures to prove MMP, when the rest of us 99.999 percent don't. Including apostles and prophets. It's not a church doctrine, it's not supported by scripture. Be very careful about teaching this to any other members because if a member tells your leaders you could be called in to explain yourself and if you are told not to teach it anymore, if you don't comply you could face church discipline. If you go with this attitude, it won't go well with you.

Did I say King Follett is scripture? It's certainly not speculation - the many witnesses to the sermon suggests what we have written is an accurate account of Joseph Smith teaching this principle - expounding upon scripture. Would you feel differently if you were present? This is our dispensation patriarch expounding upon the scriptures. The scriptures themselves say that these dominions and the nature and order of Gods will be revealed in the future, and he was giving a taste of what's to come. To discard what he taught as speculation ...

The scriptures themselves says there is much yet to be revealed - so naturally there will be scriptures that support, indicate, and suggest such mysteries as MMP. If you want to discuss scriptures you think make MMP impossible, I am more than happy to expound upon why and how I believe they do not.

There are many witnesses of Joseph Smith teaching MMP - there are many accounts of his contemporaries believing MMP. I'm happy to post these accounts here but you called them second hand - these are firsthand witnesses of what Joseph Smith taught. That's like calling a reporter who writes down a statement made by Donald Trump and then publishing it verbatim a secondhand account. Not so at all.

I believe something Joseph Smith actually taught - with many witnesses to teaching this principle on many occassions - by the mouth of two or three witnesses. Attempts to isolate me as the genesis of this belief - this truth - is uninformed.

You insist that Joseph Smith actually taught this and there were many witnesses to it, but yet, here's the fact. It's not part of our doctrine, it never was, it isn't now. That is such a problem for you and the claims you are making because events over almost 200 years of church history don't support your claims. If Joseph Smith did actually teach it, then why don't we have his writings on it? Why wasn't it ever part of the beliefs as others were. Polygamy and Blacks not holding the priesthood are in our history, but MMP is not. Why isn't it something that we members should have been taught and have testimonies of? It's such a game changer, if it was an actual doctrine, it would change everything we know about our religion. Why isn't in the missionary discussions and even in our scriptures? I don't think you can give a reasonable explanation for why it's not a part of our doctrine if the Prophet did actually reveal and teach it.

OI just gave you a 'doctrinal' case/example that seems to imply MMP (in some fashion). MMP may very well be a doctrine of the devil in our time, a time when universal knowledge of a Savior is readily available; a savior who would/could/should abrogate/undercut the MMP process (if it exists).

I like OI's idea that entities (people) may come back for different reasons, both for growth or to benefit someone else or to play a role in some important event. Doesn't mean it happens. Doesn't have to mean it is part of our cannon . . . it fact may be detrimental for such a possibility to be out in the open.

For myself, I wouldn't want to presume what the Lord may allow, or to second guess how He set up our system both as how we know it and how we don't know it.

[Jesef]

For me, I'll stick with the shortcut. One life, one death, spirit and body never to be divided again, paradise, resurrection and then onward to the Celestial kingdom where I will remain forever. For those believing in MMP, have fun, I have no use for such a bumpy ride. Nor do I have any desire to insult Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for me.

For those believing in MMP, they must believe that all the Holy Prophets are having to go through many lives as well. After all, they are and were imperfect, fallible human beings, right? So why are we told that when we die we will all go back to God and see all the Holy Prophets there, if they're supposed to be off to some other world living the life of a Pygmy or maybe an ant.

Alma 5:24
24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

What? I thought that these pure and clean men had to go to some other planet to live another life, maybe more. Strange.

Oh, I get it These men spent one life here, repented of their sins and were presented to the Father as perfect men through the blood of the Lamb. Simple and effective, right? We all have the same chance as these fine men. MMP? Not

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are perfect already? Where is that written? I think you meant they're "pure" rather than "perfect." If there were shortcuts to perfection, I'm sure there would be a scripture somewhere about that.

D&C 49:8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.

So are those Holy Men that we know not of perfect? And what does it mean to be perfect? Does it mean you are clean or does it mean you've perfected your passions, your gifts, your abilities, your leadership, your management, your administration, etc.?

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. ~ Joseph Smith

Like Jesef said, whether you believe this "great while" occurs in one resurrected body or in future probations ... If only we had some quotes about whether we have to be a Holy Ghost or a Savior along the one path to Godhood ...

And, if it's a long while, how has Abraham already enterred his exaltation unless he's already been on this path for "a great while" - unless there's some information out there about there being layers or gradations of exaltation....

Ha, ha, & the scripture/quote/revelation we have that Abraham "entered into his exaltation" is from D&C 132, sketchy at best (not published until 1852, the copy of a copy supposedly, in Kingsbury's hand-writing, that Brigham kept in his desk for 8 years?), could be the musings of Brigham Young. Sorry, but that's not very good evidence to rely on as a prooftext. And a lot of scripture isn't. D&C 19 is a good example that a lot of literal stuff doesn't mean what it literally says "endless" doesn't mean "has no end" & Alma recorded that his view on Resurrection & the afterlife Spirit world wasn't like he originally thought & taught - but was his later understanding totally complete? Probably not. Evolving doctrine/teaching is proof of different opinions & incomplete pictures/understandings - the scriptures are full of them. They span thousands of years and vastly different cultures - like "Paul's" supposed teachings about women. Like polygamy. Like racism. Etc., etc.