The horror of MMPs

[jmack]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

The red heifer idea you shared is interesting, but tell me, is the heifer they sacrifice a female? It better be, or your theory doesn't wash. The test idea is interesting, but in this case, it's like being in an Algebra class and being taught Algebra and studying it, then when it comes to the test, suddenly all that is thrown out the window, and you're told none of that is important, you don't need to study math, and you're given a test that covers Biology. I still don't see how this theory is compatible with a Savior. The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

[John Tavner]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

The red heifer idea you shared is interesting, but tell me, is the heifer they sacrifice a female? It better be, or your theory doesn't wash. The test idea is interesting, but in this case, it's like being in an Algebra class and being taught Algebra and studying it, then when it comes to the test, suddenly all that is thrown out the window, and you're told none of that is important, you don't need to study math, and you're given a test that covers Biology. I still don't see how this theory is compatible with a Savior. The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Not at all. It is about becoming through Christ and the nbecoming like Him.

[Silver Pie]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

The red heifer idea you shared is interesting, but tell me, is the heifer they sacrifice a female?

A heifer is a female that has not had any offspring. The term usually refers to immature females; after giving birth to her first calf, however, a heifer becomes a cow.

https://www.britannica.com/animal/heifer

[Alaris]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

The red heifer idea you shared is interesting, but tell me, is the heifer they sacrifice a female?

A heifer is a female that has not had any offspring. The term usually refers to immature females; after giving birth to her first calf, however, a heifer becomes a cow.

https://www.britannica.com/animal/heifer

Very very interesting. Might could it represent a new heavenly mother?

Or a new Eve?

Before me I see a house full of Eves. What a crowd of reflections the word Eve is calculated to bring up! Eve was the name or title conferred upon our first mother, because she was actually to be the mother of all the human beings who should live upon this earth. I am looking upon a congregation designed to be just such beings. ~ Brigham Youn (Millennial Star, 31:267; 1869)

How can the above statement be true without mmp being true?

[mirkwood]

I'm so glad I got the being a frog stage completed.

[Davka]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

The red heifer idea you shared is interesting, but tell me, is the heifer they sacrifice a female? It better be, or your theory doesn't wash. The test idea is interesting, but in this case, it's like being in an Algebra class and being taught Algebra and studying it, then when it comes to the test, suddenly all that is thrown out the window, and you're told none of that is important, you don't need to study math, and you're given a test that covers Biology. I still don't see how this theory is compatible with a Savior. The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Yes, the red heifer is a female. You can read about the ordinance in Numbers 19.

Here’s an interesting article about it: https://ffoz.org/discover/sabbath/the-r ... ption.html

So either this sacrifice matters or it doesn’t (obviously it does or God wouldn’t have had the Levite’s bother with it, right?) But it’s significance is pretty much an enigma to Christians in general, as well as LDS. I think it’s fair to say that if we are lacking revelation/clarity on this piece of the big picture, perhaps there are other doctrines that haven’t been fully expounded on as of yet, even to members of the Church.

As for the test analogy, my point is that in order to progress to godhood, there are certain things you must know (that’s what the endowment is...a bestowal of knowledge). The Atonement saves everyone from death and hell, yes, providing each person with the opportunity to abide in a kingdom of glory. But salvation is not the same as exaltation. To be exalted, one must gain knowledge. The irony is that mortality is where we gain that knowledge, but also where we will make mistakes while we figure it out. So the atonement lets us come to Earyh to learn the requisite lessons, make those inevitable mistakes, but not be damned for not having it perfect all at once.

[Alaris]

I'm so glad I got the being a frog stage completed.

Are you sure it's completely over? I mean we do share something like ninety percent of our DNA with frogs

[ChooseTruth]

As one who has an understanding and belief in the doctrine of mmp, can I ask that those who know about it steer the discussion away from being contentious?

These are very deep and sacred doctrines often learned through temple attendance and always through personal revelation. To put them out there like this where others ridicule them based on a lack of understanding is troubling.

I don’t think it’s a problem to share with those respectfully trying to learn, but I think it goes too far to try to prove it to another. It turns into a bash.

[Alaris]

As one who has an understanding and belief in the doctrine of mmp, can I ask that those who know about it steer the discussion away from being contentious?

These are very deep and sacred doctrines often learned through temple attendance and always through personal revelation. To put them out there like this where others ridicule them based on a lack of understanding is troubling.

I don’t think it’s a problem to share with those respectfully trying to learn, but I think it goes too far to try to prove it to another. It turns into a bash.

All efforts are in alignment friend. Welcome to the forum. I hope you can add your witness here if you feel prompted or permitted by the Spirit. I think you may be surprised at what the spirit is permitting and sometimes even constraining to share.

At some point the mysteries will be had upon the rooftops... As they come to light perhaps the reactions of those who oppose them will actually serve as a witness to their veracity.

[jmack]

men are expected to one day be a Savior and women never have that opportunity.

My understanding is that women have the potential to become a Mary, a Goddess who comes to an earth to bear a son who will become a Savior. She comes to earth as a mortal while her husband stays in the other dimension (or whatever you want to call it) so that the son will also be immortal.

How does that work with the mother being an immortal resurrected being beforehand? I'm sure I do not know. It all sounds very strange, doesn't it?

It’s very strange. The man is Christ, does his wife become his earthly mother, or is the man the god who impregnates her? Just curious where you learned about MMP? I've only heard about it here.

[jmack]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

The red heifer idea you shared is interesting, but tell me, is the heifer they sacrifice a female?

A heifer is a female that has not had any offspring. The term usually refers to immature females; after giving birth to her first calf, however, a heifer becomes a cow.

https://www.britannica.com/animal/heifer

Ahh, duh, I did know that, what a dummy, thanks for pointing it out

[jmack]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

The red heifer idea you shared is interesting, but tell me, is the heifer they sacrifice a female?

A heifer is a female that has not had any offspring. The term usually refers to immature females; after giving birth to her first calf, however, a heifer becomes a cow.

https://www.britannica.com/animal/heifer

Very very interesting. Might could it represent a new heavenly mother?

Or a new Eve?

Before me I see a house full of Eves. What a crowd of reflections the word Eve is calculated to bring up! Eve was the name or title conferred upon our first mother, because she was actually to be the mother of all the human beings who should live upon this earth. I am looking upon a congregation designed to be just such beings. ~ Brigham Youn (Millennial Star, 31:267; 1869)

How can the above statement be true without mmp being true?

I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing it. Saying we all hope to be the mothers of spirits like our heavenly parents can be done with one mortal lifetime, and that's the way we've always looked at it. You're reading everything to see a support for MMP that I don't see.

[Alaris]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

The red heifer idea you shared is interesting, but tell me, is the heifer they sacrifice a female?

A heifer is a female that has not had any offspring. The term usually refers to immature females; after giving birth to her first calf, however, a heifer becomes a cow.

https://www.britannica.com/animal/heifer

Very very interesting. Might could it represent a new heavenly mother?

Or a new Eve?

Before me I see a house full of Eves. What a crowd of reflections the word Eve is calculated to bring up! Eve was the name or title conferred upon our first mother, because she was actually to be the mother of all the human beings who should live upon this earth. I am looking upon a congregation designed to be just such beings. ~ Brigham Youn (Millennial Star, 31:267; 1869)

How can the above statement be true without mmp being true?

I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing it. Saying we all hope to be the mothers of spirits like our heavenly parents can be done with one mortal lifetime, and that's the way we've always looked at it. You're reading everything to see a support for MMP that I don't see.

How could those women become Eves if they don't condescend to the world over which they become the mother of all living? Why does Adam call her Eve?

The temple is presented in a way that suggests we are learning to become as Adam and Eve.

Eve is the physical mother over all the living...and she had to fall before being able to be such. This is just one of many, many evidences....


Moses 1:34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

Moses 4:26 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many

[jmack]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

Very very interesting. Might could it represent a new heavenly mother?

Or a new Eve?

Before me I see a house full of Eves. What a crowd of reflections the word Eve is calculated to bring up! Eve was the name or title conferred upon our first mother, because she was actually to be the mother of all the human beings who should live upon this earth. I am looking upon a congregation designed to be just such beings. ~ Brigham Youn (Millennial Star, 31:267; 1869)

How can the above statement be true without mmp being true?

I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing it. Saying we all hope to be the mothers of spirits like our heavenly parents can be done with one mortal lifetime, and that's the way we've always looked at it. You're reading everything to see a support for MMP that I don't see.

How could those women become Eves if they don't condescend to the world over which they become the mother of all living? Why does Adam call her Eve?

The temple is presented in a way that suggests we are learning to become as Adam and Eve.

Eve is the physical mother over all the living...and she had to fall before being able to be such. This is just one of many, many evidences....


Moses 1:34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

Moses 4:26 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many

I'm sorry but what you're telling me doesn't require MMP, it's never been presented that way, ever, we're not taught that and I don't believe it, it feels wrong. Tell me, why are multiple earth lives necessary? What is their purpose? If it is to slowly perfect ourselves over lifetimes then you don't need a Savior. It messes up sealings, it screws up the whole concept of being sealed for eternity if you're sealed to a bunch of different people after multiple lifetimes. I just don't get how you can believe in it and still believe that your sealing to a wife and children has any importance since you're going to get new wives and new children and they're going to also get new parents, wives, husbands and children, different brothers and sisters, it just doesn't square with accepted doctrine on sealing, ordinances, temple work, or the importance of this life and the need for salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I honestly don't understand how you can believe it and still believe in those basic doctrines and what we read from scriptures.

[righteousrepublic]

As one who has an understanding and belief in the doctrine of mmp, can I ask that those who know about it steer the discussion away from being contentious?

These are very deep and sacred doctrines often learned through temple attendance and always through personal revelation. To put them out there like this where others ridicule them based on a lack of understanding is troubling.

I don’t think it’s a problem to share with those respectfully trying to learn, but I think it goes too far to try to prove it to another. It turns into a bash.

MMP is not doctrine, it isn't supported by scripture one iota, it is misleading and insulting to those who understand and believe scripture. So there is nothing to bash, only wild ideas that a small amount of people want to be true and then come onto a forum to find followers. And when they find a few followers they think they are now justified in thrusting it down the throats of everyone that happens to stumble onto this ridiculous theory and speak in opposition to it. They are not interested in scripture and the simple plan of salvation. They make things much more difficult than necessary and this theory insults God and his divine and merciful nature. Ask this question: why would God be so cruel that he would make people go through a mortal life over and over again? He had laid out a simple plan whereby we can go back to him after this life. He gave us agency so we can either choose to live righteously or wickedly, we either gain eternal life or something much less...on our own. Does anyone that believes in MMP believe this simple doctrine, enough to accept it and live accordingly? Sure doesn't sound like it. And what does God say to this?

Isaiah 55
8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Another thing, how many people that have had a visitation by a kindred spirit, whether it be a grandmother, grandfather, child, cousin, brother, sister...or anyone else ever, ever been told that they, the spirit, are in their second or third probation? And even if the person being visited were told who this visitor is...→how would the one being visited know for a certainty that they are being visited by a relative, if they can't even recognize them because the personage they see has a complete different appearance? Instead of a slender nose...a flat one that looks like it had been in too many boxing matches. Instead of small ears, those that are so large it makes the person appear to look like a taxi cab with both doors open. Instead of short legs, those that look like stilts. Instead of a barrel chest...one that is so thin they look like a twig. I could go on. Come on folks, let's do some reality checks.←

Scriptures, Alma 40-42 tells us exactly how the restoration works.

Alma 41:2-8
2 I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself.
3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.
4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other.
5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.
6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.
7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.
8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

2 Nephi 9:13
13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

3 Nephi15:9
9 Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.

Alma 40:11-14
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

Mosiah 18:13
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.

I ask a simple question...how in the world can the above scriptures be misunderstood? How and why and for what purpose?

[larsenb]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

[righteousrepublic]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

I view the MMP theory to be an unwarranted, malignant parasite embedded into scripture to deceive the very elect that should know better than to fall for it.

[MMbelieve]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

Very very interesting. Might could it represent a new heavenly mother?

Or a new Eve?

Before me I see a house full of Eves. What a crowd of reflections the word Eve is calculated to bring up! Eve was the name or title conferred upon our first mother, because she was actually to be the mother of all the human beings who should live upon this earth. I am looking upon a congregation designed to be just such beings. ~ Brigham Youn (Millennial Star, 31:267; 1869)

How can the above statement be true without mmp being true?

I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing it. Saying we all hope to be the mothers of spirits like our heavenly parents can be done with one mortal lifetime, and that's the way we've always looked at it. You're reading everything to see a support for MMP that I don't see.

How could those women become Eves if they don't condescend to the world over which they become the mother of all living? Why does Adam call her Eve?

The temple is presented in a way that suggests we are learning to become as Adam and Eve.

Eve is the physical mother over all the living...and she had to fall before being able to be such. This is just one of many, many evidences....


Moses 1:34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

Moses 4:26 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many

I assume you believe there are many satans as well?

[MMbelieve]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

I view the MMP theory to be an unwarranted, malignant parasite embedded into scripture to deceive the very elect that should know better than to fall for it.

I see it as trying way way too hard to discover the mysteries of God by our own devices. I have found over the years, that any time I dive too deep I go too far. I can get some greater understanding by study but as soon as I feel excited that I have unlocked a closed door, I travel down that hallway and the more I go with it the darker and narrower it becomes. I feel its a trap that played on my basic human desire to understand God and my own excitement/ego. I have found that God/inspiration does not work this way. Its similar and so it can fool you. Problem is, if you do not notice the hallway of your new idea getting darker and smaller because your too high on excitement (maybe not the best description) then you are hooked and immune to the ability to autocorrect when your faced with the truth of your delusion. This can be small scale, like who are the 2 olive trees or large scale, like MMP.

Thats my best way to describe the experience for me. If we are willing to be humble and stop our thoughts to hear others who try to re ground us then we can be saved from possibly going down the wrong path which takes us off the one we should be on.

Think about the best way to deceive the very elect...i believe using their righteous desire against them is the best. This way, only discernment and humility can save you from the deception. So if you spend your time in intellect and less on spiritual development and fine tuning your ability to receive and recognize spiritual confirmation, you simply wont have the gifts available to not destroy yourself with your own good nature.

Sure hope that made sense, lol.

[MMbelieve]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

A never ending round of do overs (with the same painful result) is what some do view hell as.


The Savior suffered immense pain and death for us. How many lives do we want to place on his back? For me, I want to get it right with 1 life, it feels that his gift was a grand gift and I have a duty to take it seriously and work out my salvation NOW.

MMP treats the savior like a work horse, a disposable and under appreciated man that we (his bride) can keep under appreciating and using him.

[MMbelieve]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

Very very interesting. Might could it represent a new heavenly mother?

Or a new Eve?

Before me I see a house full of Eves. What a crowd of reflections the word Eve is calculated to bring up! Eve was the name or title conferred upon our first mother, because she was actually to be the mother of all the human beings who should live upon this earth. I am looking upon a congregation designed to be just such beings. ~ Brigham Youn (Millennial Star, 31:267; 1869)

How can the above statement be true without mmp being true?

I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing it. Saying we all hope to be the mothers of spirits like our heavenly parents can be done with one mortal lifetime, and that's the way we've always looked at it. You're reading everything to see a support for MMP that I don't see.

How could those women become Eves if they don't condescend to the world over which they become the mother of all living? Why does Adam call her Eve?

The temple is presented in a way that suggests we are learning to become as Adam and Eve.

Eve is the physical mother over all the living...and she had to fall before being able to be such. This is just one of many, many evidences....


Moses 1:34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

Moses 4:26 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many

Heres how this one works....Brigham Young believed and taught that Adam was God and thus Eve by association would be a goddess and since Brigham had a polygamy mind about him and believed he could have 999 wives and be in good standing then therefore there are many Eves or many wives. And each and every female, by nature of his belief, was a budding goddess “eve”. Adam God theory has been debunked and is not true doctrine thus his Eve Goddess theory is lumped right in there with it as false.

This idea (without the Eve part because its false) of becoming a god/goddess points only one direction and that is upward.

[jmack]

A heifer is female - the equivalent of a female virgin.

Very very interesting. Might could it represent a new heavenly mother?

Or a new Eve?

Before me I see a house full of Eves. What a crowd of reflections the word Eve is calculated to bring up! Eve was the name or title conferred upon our first mother, because she was actually to be the mother of all the human beings who should live upon this earth. I am looking upon a congregation designed to be just such beings. ~ Brigham Youn (Millennial Star, 31:267; 1869)

How can the above statement be true without mmp being true?

I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing it. Saying we all hope to be the mothers of spirits like our heavenly parents can be done with one mortal lifetime, and that's the way we've always looked at it. You're reading everything to see a support for MMP that I don't see.

How could those women become Eves if they don't condescend to the world over which they become the mother of all living? Why does Adam call her Eve?

The temple is presented in a way that suggests we are learning to become as Adam and Eve.

Eve is the physical mother over all the living...and she had to fall before being able to be such. This is just one of many, many evidences....


Moses 1:34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

Moses 4:26 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many

It sounds like you believe in Adam-God theory and that's why you interpret this in a different way than someone like me who accepts the Church's teachings on these scriptures and knows the church doesn't believe or teach Adam-God. A ton of people go to the temple and read these scriptures and they never come to the conclusions you come to because they don't believe this take on it. I really don't care what you want to believe in your own time, but it can be a problem if you teach some of this stuff to other members.

[jmack]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

Yea, I can't even make that compromise. In this case it's either or. On the one hand, we have the scriptures and prophets teachings and the Plan of Salvation and Atonement that are as clear as day on what they require--which is for each of us to live one mortal life to primarily gain a body and for many, a time of testing and then return to God for further growth and later a final judgement. The doctrines of the Gospel fit nicely into this model, which is our religion. Then you've got some people who believe in an ancient belief called Reincarnation (which they have modified and modernized) where we just keep coming back to a mortal existence for who knows how long and for what? Why would God keep sending us all back over and over? He's a loving God, why would he do this? Some might be enjoying life, but I'd say most on earth live hard, difficult lives and they don't deserve to be subjected to mortal life in endless iterations. And for what purpose? Even if they come down again and again, the chance that they find the gospel is slim, so I guess it's come back a million more times and maybe they'll find it and get their ordinances. Even claiming that there's a Savior at the end of this cycle is exhausting and once again, it makes all the scriptures false hope. I don't think you can have it both ways, it's either you have a Savior to save you, or you save yourself after eons of lifetimes.

[MMbelieve]

men are expected to one day be a Savior and women never have that opportunity.

My understanding is that women have the potential to become a Mary, a Goddess who comes to an earth to bear a son who will become a Savior. She comes to earth as a mortal while her husband stays in the other dimension (or whatever you want to call it) so that the son will also be immortal.

How does that work with the mother being an immortal resurrected being beforehand? I'm sure I do not know. It all sounds very strange, doesn't it?

It’s very strange. The man is Christ, does his wife become his earthly mother, or is the man the god who impregnates her? Just curious where you learned about MMP? I've only heard about it here.

Maybe this is part of the idea of passing your wife to your father...or to your son. I have heard both stated.
I do not want to be a wife to my dad, my father in law, or my sons. Marry a woman and know that your actually marrying her so your father can have her or have a son with her so you can provide her her next husband. How is this not offensive to men?

[jmack]

. . . . .
The whole purpose of a Savior is because you can't savior yourself, yet MMP is a way to save yourself by living multiple lives until you get it right.

Another way to look at it, is that the Savior saves you from having to be subject to more MMPs . . . . . . if such a thing exists. A perfect hell in my view, would be to have to be subject to mortality again, and again and again ad infinitum. Kinda like Sisyphus.

A never ending round of do overs (with the same painful result) is what some do view hell as.


The Savior suffered immense pain and death for us. How many lives do we want to place on his back? For me, I want to get it right with 1 life, it feels that his gift was a grand gift and I have a duty to take it seriously and work out my salvation NOW.

MMP treats the savior like a work horse, a disposable and under appreciated man that we (his bride) can keep under appreciating and using him.

Well, and if, as they claim, we still have a Savior who takes on our sins, the Savior never ends in this, and he has to take on our sins over and over for our millions of lives we live. I just want to die thinking of that awful thought that this never ends. This theory is a hot mess, if you ask me. And, I'm still stuck on the reasoning behind thinking we have to keep coming back to earth to live multiple lives. Those who believe this theory, please explain what the purpose is for multiple mortal probations? If you don't do it to perfect yourselves and overcome sin and weakness, what is it for? Also, does everyone who ever lived keep coming back or is it just certain persons? Do some people only live one life? I'd go read up on MMP and the particulars instead of asking questions, but it's not something that was ever taught by church leaders, all we've got are vague speculative comments in diaries etc.