The horror of MMPs

[jmack]

How do you think Jesus was capable of fulfilling his mission, how was he "perfect"? Was he just born superior? Did he just get the "Lion's share" of the spiritual genes? What if he perfected himself over many rounds? What if that's the only way anyone perfects themselves? It ain't fairy dust, people! The Atonement/Grace of God allows us to continue climbing, continue learning/growing. You think you're ready for godhood because you went through some rituals? Look at your own character. Character development is the product of choice, work, your own intent - it is not a fairy dust magical gift. You must learn & grow. "God's grace"/Atonement let's us keep going, not be stopped/damned. That's my understanding.

Wow. Is it my job to know how Jesus was perfected? Did I miss a book or some verses in the Canon that tell exactly how Jesus became the only begotten Son of the Father and the only one capable of fulfilling God's plan of Salvation? No, I didn't, because God hasn't explained it, but he sure did make sure that in our Canon, it's clear that this life is the time to prepare and that each and every one of us can't save ourselves, no matter how many lifetimes we live, because he wouldn't have bothered to provide a Savior if he was going to have us overcome our sins and weaknesses through mortal living. MMP is a whole nother religion and it doesn't fit with a religion who's central doctrine is of the necessity of a Redeemer.

I thought MMP wasn't scriptural - so you're saying there are truths that aren't in the scriptures? Did they just leave out the ones that you don't need to know?

The Lord does actually start to lay out this process of how He received a fullness in D&C 93 - He begins by saying He received grace for grace and then says we must receive grace for grace - the unspoken bit at the end is "along the same path" - which is in King Follett. There is one path to Godhood. One. Not two - not three - one. And just before the Lord puts this in plain English He says if we are faithful we will receive the fullness of the record of John. Do we have that yet? No? Then perhaps we should focus on being faithful rather than contentious and insulting folks who believe differently.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 4?lang=eng

I don't consider it insulting you to disagree with you, so don't take it that way. To answer, all truths are not in the scriptures, there's a lot we don't know, but we have sufficient to be saved. Yea, the Lord said he did leave out the ones that we didn't need to know or when he wants to try our faith (he said it in 3rd Nephi) and there's a verse in 1st or 2nd Nephi where the prophet said we what we are given is sufficient for our salvation. I don't read 'grace for grace' as meaning MMP, since it also means 'line upon line' and precept on precept, which is how we are expected to learn and grow. I think when your problem is that you want to see proof for your belief in everything you read, but you're changing interpretations to do so. And, maybe you'll answer. Do you believe that the end of the line for becoming a God is being a Savior on a world? If so, then what about women? Are they going to MMP into a male body so they can be a Savior and become a fully top of the line God, or do they remain a demi god, female and have to be satisfied with that?

[Davka]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

[Davka]

One other quick comment on the men and women thing.

Have y’all ever considered the major differences between the men and women’s washing blessings in the initiatory? If you aren’t familiar, I suggest asking your spouse about the verbiage in their blessing and comparing it to yours. Or get ahold of a printed version (*cough* google *cough*) and compare them.

Those differences alone should make it clear that men and women are on different paths. The methods in which we become clean through the atonement are completely different. Why is that?

The fact is that women’s roles are still very veiled to us, imo. I am certain our capstone role is as important as the Savior’s, but I would not expect it to be the same. And the fact of the matter is, those details of that capstone role and everything in between has not been revealed to us yet. But I believe it will be soon (relatively speaking, of course).

[Alaris]

How do you think Jesus was capable of fulfilling his mission, how was he "perfect"? Was he just born superior? Did he just get the "Lion's share" of the spiritual genes? What if he perfected himself over many rounds? What if that's the only way anyone perfects themselves? It ain't fairy dust, people! The Atonement/Grace of God allows us to continue climbing, continue learning/growing. You think you're ready for godhood because you went through some rituals? Look at your own character. Character development is the product of choice, work, your own intent - it is not a fairy dust magical gift. You must learn & grow. "God's grace"/Atonement let's us keep going, not be stopped/damned. That's my understanding.

Wow. Is it my job to know how Jesus was perfected? Did I miss a book or some verses in the Canon that tell exactly how Jesus became the only begotten Son of the Father and the only one capable of fulfilling God's plan of Salvation? No, I didn't, because God hasn't explained it, but he sure did make sure that in our Canon, it's clear that this life is the time to prepare and that each and every one of us can't save ourselves, no matter how many lifetimes we live, because he wouldn't have bothered to provide a Savior if he was going to have us overcome our sins and weaknesses through mortal living. MMP is a whole nother religion and it doesn't fit with a religion who's central doctrine is of the necessity of a Redeemer.

I thought MMP wasn't scriptural - so you're saying there are truths that aren't in the scriptures? Did they just leave out the ones that you don't need to know?

The Lord does actually start to lay out this process of how He received a fullness in D&C 93 - He begins by saying He received grace for grace and then says we must receive grace for grace - the unspoken bit at the end is "along the same path" - which is in King Follett. There is one path to Godhood. One. Not two - not three - one. And just before the Lord puts this in plain English He says if we are faithful we will receive the fullness of the record of John. Do we have that yet? No? Then perhaps we should focus on being faithful rather than contentious and insulting folks who believe differently.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 4?lang=eng

I don't consider it insulting you to disagree with you, so don't take it that way. To answer, all truths are not in the scriptures, there's a lot we don't know, but we have sufficient to be saved. Yea, the Lord said he did leave out the ones that we didn't need to know or when he wants to try our faith (he said it in 3rd Nephi) and there's a verse in 1st or 2nd Nephi where the prophet said we what we are given is sufficient for our salvation. I don't read 'grace for grace' as meaning MMP, since it also means 'line upon line' and precept on precept, which is how we are expected to learn and grow. I think when your problem is that you want to see proof for your belief in everything you read, but you're changing interpretations to do so. And, maybe you'll answer. Do you believe that the end of the line for becoming a God is being a Savior on a world? If so, then what about women? Are they going to MMP into a male body so they can be a Savior and become a fully top of the line God, or do they remain a demi god, female and have to be satisfied with that?

Confirmation bias affects everyone, however when the scriptures indicate both A and B that seem to be opposing ideas, the devil wants us to argue as though there is a binary choice. One can see this everywhere throughout the worlds religions and is at the heart of ideological tribalism.

In this case the scriptures indicate both a permanent judgement and MMP. Obviously it can't be both so let's argue rawr.

Only it can be both. Would Adam ever have died had he not partaken of the fruit? No, not ever. His spirit and body would never have separated ever just as described in Alma 42 iirc.

Here's the question that nobody seems to think to ask. Hat tip to my wife from her temple trip last Saturday for I didn't think of this either.

Which tree was forbidden to Adam and Eve? Only one tree was forbidden until the fall. After the fall, cherubim and a flaming sword guarded the tree of life.

So Adam and Eve were able to partake freely of the fruit of the tree of life. So here's the question:

Did Adam and Eve access the tree the same way we all do per 1 Nephi 8, or were they just lucky enough to be placed there willy nilly?

Obviously it wasn't willy nilly, but like Jesef pointed out earlier, would a premortal probation be enough to produce a perfect Savior? D&C 93 says we must receive grace for grace as the Savior did. Well what about Adam? Was Adam given a world due to his noble acts as a spirit or do we earn worlds the same way he did? Do we all approach the tree of life in the same way per 1 Nephi 8? And once we receive a world do we consecrate it for the progression of our posterity.

Lucifer tells Adam in the temple this new world is patterned after the old world. Wouldn't that mean the old world would have a garden, a fall, and a redemption or is this a very loose pattern?

Now you can come up with an alt explanation for every little thing in the scriptures by design for a being far far more intelligent than I has overseen what is revealed to the prophets and how things are phrased for this very reason. The scriptures teach us how to receive the mysteries.

The many quotes from Joseph Smith that indicate one path to godhood, that Father was Savior, and that Jesus was a holy ghost, and that the saints must traverse this same path...those are difficult to come up with an alt explanation.

I'll defer to Davkas response on women, but I'll say this. I suspect this revelation is coming to light now with the recent temple endowment changes. I believe womens role may be centered on the tribal aspect of governing eternal families as well as the bearing and removing of tribal curses.

[Alaris]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

One other quick comment on the men and women thing.

Have y’all ever considered the major differences between the men and women’s washing blessings in the initiatory? If you aren’t familiar, I suggest asking your spouse about the verbiage in their blessing and comparing it to yours. Or get ahold of a printed version (*cough* google *cough*) and compare them.

Those differences alone should make it clear that men and women are on different paths. The methods in which we become clean through the atonement are completely different. Why is that?

The fact is that women’s roles are still very veiled to us, imo. I am certain our capstone role is as important as the Savior’s, but I would not expect it to be the same. And the fact of the matter is, those details of that capstone role and everything in between has not been revealed to us yet. But I believe it will be soon (relatively speaking, of course).

Wow, truly amazing insights. I've got nothing to add other than quoting these posts as they ought to be read twice....at least.

[Robbinius]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

Agreed - I immediately sent my wife to "study the red heifer" after reading your post She will of course get me up to speed in the car this evening on our way to the temple. Excited to dig into this. I never considered it Davka. Truly awesome.

[MMbelieve]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

Your number two appears to be on the traditional one life side of the field, not MMP. It points to a savior doing it for you through all your tests, which to me is a week by week basis in mortality.

[Alaris]

Each week is a symbol of a 7-step eternal round. We covenant at the beginning of the week - usually the morning of the first day of the week to the Lord that we may always have His spirit to be with us. This is the pattern of eternal rounds. We literally practice on a small scale - by bettering ourselves each week - that which occurs on an eternal scale.

The Sabbath went from day 7 to day 1 (8) when Jesus rose because His Atonement is what allows us to traverse to the next round as Davka said. This is beautiful and clear - anyone who says this somehow minimizes the Atonement hasn't considered this symbolism; and if they have, they're not being intellectually honest.

[Davka]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

Your number two appears to be on the traditional one life side of the field, not MMP. It points to a savior doing it for you through all your tests, which to me is a week by week basis in mortality.

I agree and I think that is an awesome point! The atonement absolutely matters for our progress in the here and now.

But what does a week symbolize? 6 days of labor (6 days of creation, 6 dispensations of work) One of rest (the seventh day that God rested, the millennium). Lying down at night (represents death), rising in the morning (consider the *morning* of the first resurrection). Partaking of the sacrament...the blessings of the atonement...on the seventh day...so that we “may ALWAYS remember him.” Maybe that includes remembering him and his sacrifice even when we are in a new world (“A new world?” “Yes, patterned after the old one where we came from.”)

[Alaris]

A few rebuttals, quickly, because I’m short on time:

1. We know very little about women’s roles in general in the eternities. The godhead as we know it is made up of 3 men. So where all all the goddesses? Are they their wives? Their mothers? This we don’t have many answers on. Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because in order to understand the roles of women in the eternities, one must understand the manner of progression of souls first. And since the doctrine of how souls progress to become gods/goddesses is one shrouded in mystery, we may not be collectively ready to understand the doctrine of women.

Have you ever considered the sacrifice of the red heifer under the law of Moses? A red (not white) cow with no blemish who is sacrificed and whose ashes are used to *cleanse* the priests prior to offering sacrifice and after coming in contact with a corpse. If the sacrifice Passover lamb represents the Savior, who does the red heifer represent?

Another interesting point to consider is that the intro to the instruction on the sacrifice of the red heifer in Numbers, the Hebrew translation implies a great mystery...something almost too sacred to be understood. I submit that the presence of this ordinance as part of the Law of Moses points to a later sacrifice of a woman...at some point.

We obviously do not have all the puzzle pieces yet to understand this, so if one can admit that this doctrine is yet to be expounded and understood, why not the idea that once a souls passes one test, another, even greater one, lies ahead?

The typical premortal/mortal/afterlife diagram gives us 3 periods of time. We know our current state is but a tiny moment in the eternal scheme of things. We know very, very little (next to nothing, really) about what went on before and what will happen after. But we do know there was and will continue to be progress. So how does that happen? Can anyone here tell me? The answer is no, you cannot, because there is no more evidence, scriptural or otherwise, for how progress is the pre and post mortal works than there is for MMP.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

“By grace are we saved after all we can do.”

Saved from what? From death and hell. But no one says you’re saved from having to take another test or from coming to Earth again.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently. Kind of like a kindergartener working on algebra. Most will get a glazed over look when the teacher starts talking about functions and solving for x, a few might find the idea exciting and look forward to when they will be able to fully understand and apply the concepts.

Your number two appears to be on the traditional one life side of the field, not MMP. It points to a savior doing it for you through all your tests, which to me is a week by week basis in mortality.

I agree and I think that is an awesome point! The atonement absolutely matters for our progress in the here and now.

But what does a week symbolize? 6 days of labor (6 days of creation, 6 dispensations of work) One of rest (the seventh day that God rested, the millennium). Lying down at night (represents death), rising in the morning (consider the *morning* of the first resurrection). Partaking of the sacrament...the blessings of the atonement...on the seventh day...so that we “may ALWAYS remember him.” Maybe that includes remembering him and his sacrifice even when we are in a new world (“A new world?” “Yes, patterned after the old one where we came from.”)

I'm going to stop posting and just wait for Davka to respond first. (after this post)

The sacrament prayer speaks to this process - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and how our covenants and eternal progression move from the God who was, the God who is, and the God who is to come.

Right before the 7th Trump is sounded - in fact, what causes the 7th Trump to sound is when the Holy Spirit secures his throne / mercy seat, and this process of the God who was, is, and is to come is mentioned:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

"Shall" links to the God who is to come ... the one who is securing his everlasting name by which we covenant at the dawn of a new round / world.

[Silver Pie]

That is a comforting scripture, and very definitely seems to say, "This is it, guys. This is the only mortality you get." Of course, if I blow it, maybe I'd want to try again, I dunno.

“For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.” Alma 34:32-33

[Silver Pie]

This was my stance for a long time, but then mmp got presented in a way that seemed to work with the atonement. Strangely enough, I can't recall the argument that convinced me that it's possible to live on many different earths as a mortal (NOT returning to this one, or any one, over and over and over again).

What exactly is reincarnation? Is it contrary to the teachings of the gospel? Ensign 1989

“5. Reincarnation denies the entire purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who believe that spirits and gods can repeatedly inhabit a variety of physical forms do not take into account Christ’s mission and the purpose of the Atonement. For a person who believes in reincarnation, Christ would be but one manifestation of a temporarily embodied savior—one of many possible incarnations.
To accept this premise would be to repudiate the most fundamental teaching of the gospel—that there was a single, unique act of redemption made by the Lord Jesus Christ. By denying the ultimate importance of the Atonement and of Christ’s mercy and love, those who believe in reincarnation fail to see the Savior in his rightful position as King of Kings and Lord of Lords—the only name given whereby we can be saved. (See D&C 18:23.) Though reincarnation is an interesting theory that may have a few similarities with the gospel, it denies the absolute centrality of the Atonement and must be rejected as false.”

[Silver Pie]

I believe this is what happened with the little girl in India who is famous for being a reincarnation of a mother who died early. The little girl knew the boys. She knew the place the woman lived. She knew things that she (the little girl) could not have known. All I could figure was that this sad mother walked the earth in her country until she found a child open enough to share her sorrow with.

Those who can remember past lives may also be seeing the lives of the dead who have attached themselves to them. The restless dead who have not left earth's realm may attach themselves to a host.

[Silver Pie]

"To go no more out" definitely sounds like not coming to a mortality again and again.

The scriptures can be so confusing. "This life is the time to prepare," but if you get it right, you'll "go no more out."

This is the first good argument I have seen against MMP. Thanks.

Against? These are clearly scriptures in favor of mmp. To go no more out is not a phrase that makes any sense if you go out only once.

Otherwise it's sort of redundant if there's never any going more out at all.

[Silver Pie]

The mmp I've been taught does not deny the Atonement nor the Savior. We still have to rely on one to be saved, but it takes a long time to reach the level of perfection to be a God. That takes coming to a new planet (eternity to eternity means there are mortalities in between) and growing a bit more in the new one (hopefully) than in the old one. As far as I know, Jesus is the only one we rely on during all that time.

And Lucifer, after having gone enough rounds to reach Godhood, threw it all away - because it was too hard to take eons upon eons of time, and too many people were screwing up in each round.

Is all of that true? Is any of it true? I don't know. Is it vital to know about it if it's true? Maybe. (I don't know the answer to that one, either.)

I do know that we need to treat this life as the only chance so that we're not tempted to sit back and say, "Well, I can get it right next time." Because, what if we're wrong and this really is the only mortality? Or what if we're right, but our refusal to accept the atonement and do our best puts us back several steps?

The people who do not allow the Savior to atone for their sins are the ones who refuse his gift and refuse to meet the conditional requirements to have the Savior himself vouch for him/her at the judgement seat of God. These people will be REQUIRED to meet justice themselves by nature of Gods law (which Christ offered to satisfy on our behalf) which is DEATH!

Skirting the importance of the atonement is evil and probably exactly what the Father of Lies desires.

[Silver Pie]

men are expected to one day be a Savior and women never have that opportunity.

My understanding is that women have the potential to become a Mary, a Goddess who comes to an earth to bear a son who will become a Savior. She comes to earth as a mortal while her husband stays in the other dimension (or whatever you want to call it) so that the son will also be immortal.

How does that work with the mother being an immortal resurrected being beforehand? I'm sure I do not know. It all sounds very strange, doesn't it?

[Silver Pie]

If we are going to go deeper and deeper into mmp, it seems to me that we need to be open to the idea that women can become men and men become women (and even that that may be the issue with some homosexual people; they really were the opposite sex in a former round).

I'm not saying it's true. I think we need to be open to a lot of things, though, if we're going to explore an idea like mmp.

But the truth is this: We can't know it's true unless we get a revelation from heaven that it's true. And how do we know the revelation came from God? Because we can get revelations from more sources than from God. Even an angel can deceive us if we think it was sent by God, but it wasn't.

the women who believe in MMP . . . won't ever be MMPed into a male body (or do they?)

edited a typo.

[Silver Pie]

Very well stated. Your whole post gives me something to think about.

2. The idea that MMP disregards the need for a Savior is untrue. In fact, it makes the need for a Savior even more infinite and eternal, as at each round a Savior makes it possible for one to progress to the next phase. It would be like a kindergartener being told they have to pass a PhD level exam with 100 questions perfectly to graduate. One failing grade and you’re done. Luckily, someone fills in the answers you don’t know at each grade, so long as you do your best, and answer the questions you have been taught correctly, so you can keep going to school. In kindergarten, you might get 1 question right, (2+2) and the Savior makes up for the 99 you got wrong. By 7th grade, you’re getting a 33 percent - still failing, but the deficit is made up for. By the time you’re in your first year of college, you’re getting 75 percent. At least it’s passing, but not perfect. The Savior makes it so you can keep going to school and progressing to the new level until you’re ready to take the exam yourself. As you can see, the Savior is fully necessary on this scenario — you owe your progress and your newly earned PhD to him! Yes, you learned all the necessary lessons, but to claim you did it yourself would be ungrateful, at the least.

[Silver Pie]

And that is a relief, to be sure - to not be expected to know more than I can currently know. Very merciful and kind.

But, truth is, if you aren’t in the camp of believing this, I don’t believe you’ll be held accountable for it. We will be held accountable for the time and season we are in, and I really think these mysteries are a grade or two above where most of us are currently.

[Silver Pie]

Very concise and succinctly put. Thank you.

Jesus rose because His Atonement is what allows us to traverse to the next round

[MMbelieve]

The mmp I've been taught does not deny the Atonement nor the Savior. We still have to rely on one to be saved, but it takes a long time to reach the level of perfection to be a God. That takes coming to a new planet (eternity to eternity means there are mortalities in between) and growing a bit more in the new one (hopefully) than in the old one. As far as I know, Jesus is the only one we rely on during all that time.

And Lucifer, after having gone enough rounds to reach Godhood, threw it all away - because it was too hard to take eons upon eons of time, and too many people were screwing up in each round.

Is all of that true? Is any of it true? I don't know. Is it vital to know about it if it's true? Maybe. (I don't know the answer to that one, either.)

I do know that we need to treat this life as the only chance so that we're not tempted to sit back and say, "Well, I can get it right next time." Because, what if we're wrong and this really is the only mortality? Or what if we're right, but our refusal to accept the atonement and do our best puts us back several steps?

The people who do not allow the Savior to atone for their sins are the ones who refuse his gift and refuse to meet the conditional requirements to have the Savior himself vouch for him/her at the judgement seat of God. These people will be REQUIRED to meet justice themselves by nature of Gods law (which Christ offered to satisfy on our behalf) which is DEATH!

Skirting the importance of the atonement is evil and probably exactly what the Father of Lies desires.

I don't know, that sounds too unstable to be the plan. Not knowing if this is it or not is not a comforting idea to try to sell to others.

[MMbelieve]

If we are going to go deeper and deeper int mmp, it seems to me that we need to be open to the idea that women can become men and men become women (and even that that may be the issue with some homosexual people; they really were the opposite sex in a former round).

I'm not saying it's true. I think we need to be open to a lot of things, though, if we're going to explore an idea like mmp.

But the truth is this: We can't know it's true unless we get a revelation from heaven that it's true. And how do we know the revelation came from God? Because we can get revelations from more sources than from God. Even an angel can deceive us if we think it was sent by God, but it wasn't.

the women who believe in MMP . . . won't ever be MMPed into a male body (or do they?)

Gender is eternal.

[Silver Pie]

Yes, but if we are going to go down the rabbit hole of mmp, it seems to me that we must be open to all sorts of weird things.

Gender is eternal.

[John Tavner]

Yes, but if we are going to go down the rabbit hole of mmp, it seems to me that we must be open to all sorts of weird things.

Gender is eternal.

Normally I would agree, but if we think about the creation story - male and female He created them. Male and female - Spiritually first and then physically. I personally beleive that would be completely out of order. And God is a God of order. It would create too much confusion.

[MMbelieve]

Yes, but if we are going to go down the rabbit hole of mmp, it seems to me that we must be open to all sorts of weird things.

Gender is eternal.

Lol, that I agree with.