LDS Freedom Forum

Alaris wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 11:35 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 10:18 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 10:03 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 9:51 pm

I do appreciate your time but this MMP thoughts and ideas are going against the gospel I know. The more its explained the more its not sounding right.

Well that may be because you don't accept the teachings or actions of polygamy. We can take polygamy out of the equation. I recommend reading King Follett, D&C 93, and Hebrews 5 if you're genuinely interested in finding out. No mention of polygamy there or in the two articles I wrote on mmp.

MMP makes more logical sense than the teaching that Jesus was literally the first born spirit who lived a perfect life without ever living before. Where is God's justice there? Where is the plan there? If God can just infuse light into the first created spirit why doesn't he just infuse light into all of us in like manner?

If Jesus never lived before then who will save our spirit children? Will we someday make a lucky first spirit who just happens to be perfect? Won't he eclipse us the moment he descends below our creation - an act we never performed ourselves? As hard as an atonement seems in our puny imagination, what about the fact it's the greatest act of love? Won't we be robbed of never being able to perform such an act? And if so there are two types of Gods in heaven... Those who saved creations and those lesser gods who created the Saviors.

Only there aren't two paths to exaltation. There is one path.

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon

Actually no, its not because of polygamy. Me accepting MMP or not changes nothing regarding the churches teachings on polygamy which you assume im against. I can accept that some will have polygamist lives in heaven.

I really dont believe in MMP as far as living multiple mortal lives. It doesnt fit. And thats okay, I dont have to agree with you. If its true then its true and Im sure were all on our additional jouneys from the first anyways. Makes no difference to me really, I take things as they come whatever it may be that I find myself facing.

I believe you are mocking the atonement or at least making light of it.

You know, I was ready to thank your post and not respond and move on until that pesky little last statement. Please tell me how I personally am mocking the atonement or making light of it by believing the words of the prophets.

Did you happen read any of those things I've suggested you read?

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. ...This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. Brethren, this is the course we have to take; it is a progressive work from one day to another, and from one week to another; and if we advance this year, we are so far advanced in preparation to better go through the next year." ~ Heber C. Kimball, JD:4-329

Is there no higher symbolism in our partaking of the sacrament weekly, making the same covenants over and over again?

I could easily say you're mocking the Atonement or making light of it by saying Jesus didn't have to walk the same path we walk - that it all just came easy to him as first born spirit, never having experienced mortality before. We don't think it robbery to be equal with God - as far as I have seen, Latter-day Saints are fine with us being equal with Elohim (who is greater than Jehovah) some day, but being equal a Jehovah is somehow minimizing the Atonement?

There is one path to Godhood, and Jesus walked that path we all must walk if we choose and are able to do so. Let's say, hypothetically, it takes a dozen creations across several dozen lifetimes to become firstborn. Would it not be a mockery to try to shoehorn His great accomplishment across the eternities into one eternal round? Read this - carefully:

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon

What does it mean to go from grace to grace? Who provides grace? And, if only one being per eternal round provides grace, then what does it mean to go from grace to grace?

What about exaltation - what does it mean? If exaltation means entering the highest degrees of glory, then what does it mean to go from exaltation to exaltation until you are able to attain to the resurrection of the dead? Hrm ... I assume by "you" Joseph Smith meant you, or anyone listening to him who have already come into mortality.

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. ~ Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382

So the Holy Ghost is a step on the process right? Is there a second witness to this?

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

So not only is being the Holy Ghost a step but being a saint is a step in this long journey. Even if being a saint and being a Savior were the only two steps, that's two mortalities.

oneClimbs wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 9:28 am “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.” Alma 34:32-33

Alaris wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 2:04 pm

Benaishtart wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 1:58 pm Everyone on here who is so adamant against this is just terrified out of their wits to be a savior. It’s like leaving the house. You can’t do it at 5 years old but by 17 you’ll be yearning for it to happen.

I just realized something based off your post. MMP is a comforting thought once you realize you have to descend below all before ascending above all. It will take quite some time to become perfect within the confines of the laws of agency. We will be required to be perfect eventually just as Jeffrey R. Holland said - the same as all Gods who have come before.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

In between the above scripture and the below scripture, Jesus Christ descended below all and became the firstfruits of those who sleep:

3 Nephi 12:48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

There is one path.

One path to perfection.

One path to join the order of Elohim.

Jesef wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 9:45 am In fact, if it's "one and done", why do so many souls choose to come down so unprepared - why don't they wait in the premortal realm & grow up there until they're ready to get an "A+" in their physical/mortal life.

Elizabeth wrote: ↑February 28th, 2019, 3:26 am All this imagining is serving no purpose. For those of us who remember past mortal lives these could be our own, or those to whom we were a guardian angel. There is no reason to dwell upon it. Our task is to prepare for eternity and we will one day know the answers.

Alaris wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2019, 4:40 pm

harakim wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2019, 4:28 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 11:21 am

Alaris wrote: ↑February 28th, 2019, 11:21 am Here's a good scripture:

Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

To go no more out ... curious wording if we only go out once.

Surely that must have been one of those errors of men, though. A snafu. Oh wait, what's this?

Helaman 3:29 Yea, we see that whosoever will may lay hold upon the word of God, which is quick and powerful, which shall divide asunder all the cunning and the snares and the wiles of the devil, and lead the man of Christ in a strait and narrow course across that everlasting gulf of misery which is prepared to engulf the wicked—

30 And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out.

Verse 29 speaks of the "word of God" that leads man to the strait and narrow, hrm ... I won't focus on the title, "Word of God" but let's focus on the fact that path is straight and narrow. I'm pretty sure "paths" plural isn't anywhere our scriptures right? One path to Godhood - just like Joseph Smith said. If we stay on this path, which may include multiple descents to mortality, eventually we will sit down with all our holy fathers to ... go .. no ... more .. out.

Once again, here are all the "go no more out" scriptures I've found:

• Alma 7:25 25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out.

• Alma 29:17 17 And now may God grant unto these, my brethren, that they may sit down in the kingdom of God; yea, and also all those who are the fruit of their labors that they may go no more out, but that they may praise him forever. And may God grant that it may be done according to my words, even as I have spoken. Amen.

• Alma 34:36 36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

• Helaman 3:30 30 And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out.

• 3 Nephi 28:40 40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

• Revelation 3:12 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

This is the first good argument I have seen against MMP. Thanks.

Against? These are clearly scriptures in favor of mmp. To go no more out is not a phrase that makes any sense if you go out only once.

Otherwise it's sort of redundant if there's never any going more out at all.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 9:29 am

Alaris wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 11:35 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 10:18 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 10:03 pm

Well that may be because you don't accept the teachings or actions of polygamy. We can take polygamy out of the equation. I recommend reading King Follett, D&C 93, and Hebrews 5 if you're genuinely interested in finding out. No mention of polygamy there or in the two articles I wrote on mmp.

MMP makes more logical sense than the teaching that Jesus was literally the first born spirit who lived a perfect life without ever living before. Where is God's justice there? Where is the plan there? If God can just infuse light into the first created spirit why doesn't he just infuse light into all of us in like manner?

If Jesus never lived before then who will save our spirit children? Will we someday make a lucky first spirit who just happens to be perfect? Won't he eclipse us the moment he descends below our creation - an act we never performed ourselves? As hard as an atonement seems in our puny imagination, what about the fact it's the greatest act of love? Won't we be robbed of never being able to perform such an act? And if so there are two types of Gods in heaven... Those who saved creations and those lesser gods who created the Saviors.

Only there aren't two paths to exaltation. There is one path.

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon

Actually no, its not because of polygamy. Me accepting MMP or not changes nothing regarding the churches teachings on polygamy which you assume im against. I can accept that some will have polygamist lives in heaven.

I really dont believe in MMP as far as living multiple mortal lives. It doesnt fit. And thats okay, I dont have to agree with you. If its true then its true and Im sure were all on our additional jouneys from the first anyways. Makes no difference to me really, I take things as they come whatever it may be that I find myself facing.

I believe you are mocking the atonement or at least making light of it.

You know, I was ready to thank your post and not respond and move on until that pesky little last statement. Please tell me how I personally am mocking the atonement or making light of it by believing the words of the prophets.

Did you happen read any of those things I've suggested you read?

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. ...This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. Brethren, this is the course we have to take; it is a progressive work from one day to another, and from one week to another; and if we advance this year, we are so far advanced in preparation to better go through the next year." ~ Heber C. Kimball, JD:4-329

Is there no higher symbolism in our partaking of the sacrament weekly, making the same covenants over and over again?

I could easily say you're mocking the Atonement or making light of it by saying Jesus didn't have to walk the same path we walk - that it all just came easy to him as first born spirit, never having experienced mortality before. We don't think it robbery to be equal with God - as far as I have seen, Latter-day Saints are fine with us being equal with Elohim (who is greater than Jehovah) some day, but being equal a Jehovah is somehow minimizing the Atonement?

There is one path to Godhood, and Jesus walked that path we all must walk if we choose and are able to do so. Let's say, hypothetically, it takes a dozen creations across several dozen lifetimes to become firstborn. Would it not be a mockery to try to shoehorn His great accomplishment across the eternities into one eternal round? Read this - carefully:

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon

What does it mean to go from grace to grace? Who provides grace? And, if only one being per eternal round provides grace, then what does it mean to go from grace to grace?

What about exaltation - what does it mean? If exaltation means entering the highest degrees of glory, then what does it mean to go from exaltation to exaltation until you are able to attain to the resurrection of the dead? Hrm ... I assume by "you" Joseph Smith meant you, or anyone listening to him who have already come into mortality.

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. ~ Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382

So the Holy Ghost is a step on the process right? Is there a second witness to this?

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

So not only is being the Holy Ghost a step but being a saint is a step in this long journey. Even if being a saint and being a Savior were the only two steps, that's two mortalities.

What exactly is reincarnation? Is it contrary to the teachings of the gospel? Ensign 1989

“5. Reincarnation denies the entire purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who believe that spirits and gods can repeatedly inhabit a variety of physical forms do not take into account Christ’s mission and the purpose of the Atonement. For a person who believes in reincarnation, Christ would be but one manifestation of a temporarily embodied savior—one of many possible incarnations.
To accept this premise would be to repudiate the most fundamental teaching of the gospel—that there was a single, unique act of redemption made by the Lord Jesus Christ. By denying the ultimate importance of the Atonement and of Christ’s mercy and love, those who believe in reincarnation fail to see the Savior in his rightful position as King of Kings and Lord of Lords—the only name given whereby we can be saved. (See D&C 18:23.) Though reincarnation is an interesting theory that may have a few similarities with the gospel, it denies the absolute centrality of the Atonement and must be rejected as false.”

Benaishtart wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 1:58 pm Everyone on here who is so adamant against this is just terrified out of their wits to be a savior. It’s like leaving the house. You can’t do it at 5 years old but by 17 you’ll be yearning for it to happen.

Alaris wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2019, 4:40 pm

harakim wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2019, 4:28 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 11:21 am

Alaris wrote: ↑February 28th, 2019, 11:21 am Here's a good scripture:

Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

To go no more out ... curious wording if we only go out once.

Surely that must have been one of those errors of men, though. A snafu. Oh wait, what's this?

Helaman 3:29 Yea, we see that whosoever will may lay hold upon the word of God, which is quick and powerful, which shall divide asunder all the cunning and the snares and the wiles of the devil, and lead the man of Christ in a strait and narrow course across that everlasting gulf of misery which is prepared to engulf the wicked—

30 And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out.

Verse 29 speaks of the "word of God" that leads man to the strait and narrow, hrm ... I won't focus on the title, "Word of God" but let's focus on the fact that path is straight and narrow. I'm pretty sure "paths" plural isn't anywhere our scriptures right? One path to Godhood - just like Joseph Smith said. If we stay on this path, which may include multiple descents to mortality, eventually we will sit down with all our holy fathers to ... go .. no ... more .. out.

Once again, here are all the "go no more out" scriptures I've found:

• Alma 7:25 25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out.

• Alma 29:17 17 And now may God grant unto these, my brethren, that they may sit down in the kingdom of God; yea, and also all those who are the fruit of their labors that they may go no more out, but that they may praise him forever. And may God grant that it may be done according to my words, even as I have spoken. Amen.

• Alma 34:36 36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

• Helaman 3:30 30 And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out.

• 3 Nephi 28:40 40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

• Revelation 3:12 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

This is the first good argument I have seen against MMP. Thanks.

Against? These are clearly scriptures in favor of mmp. To go no more out is not a phrase that makes any sense if you go out only once.

Otherwise it's sort of redundant if there's never any going more out at all.

Alaris wrote: ↑March 4th, 2019, 7:37 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑March 4th, 2019, 7:15 pm I was going to say, Alaris, I didn't realize it was in the Book of Mormon twice, but then I read larsenb's post. Holy cow, it's in the scriptures a lot!

Right? He even posted this before and I still forgot!

Here's a good one:

Palms 71:20
Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and
shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Jesef wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:22 am How do you think Jesus was capable of fulfilling his mission, how was he "perfect"? Was he just born superior? Did he just get the "Lion's share" of the spiritual genes? What if he perfected himself over many rounds? What if that's the only way anyone perfects themselves? It ain't fairy dust, people! The Atonement/Grace of God allows us to continue climbing, continue learning/growing. You think you're ready for godhood because you went through some rituals? Look at your own character. Character development is the product of choice, work, your own intent - it is not a fairy dust magical gift. You must learn & grow. "God's grace"/Atonement let's us keep going, not be stopped/damned. That's my understanding.

jmack wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:11 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 9:29 am

Alaris wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 11:35 pm

MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 10:18 pm

Actually no, its not because of polygamy. Me accepting MMP or not changes nothing regarding the churches teachings on polygamy which you assume im against. I can accept that some will have polygamist lives in heaven.

I really dont believe in MMP as far as living multiple mortal lives. It doesnt fit. And thats okay, I dont have to agree with you. If its true then its true and Im sure were all on our additional jouneys from the first anyways. Makes no difference to me really, I take things as they come whatever it may be that I find myself facing.

I believe you are mocking the atonement or at least making light of it.

You know, I was ready to thank your post and not respond and move on until that pesky little last statement. Please tell me how I personally am mocking the atonement or making light of it by believing the words of the prophets.

Did you happen read any of those things I've suggested you read?

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. ...This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. Brethren, this is the course we have to take; it is a progressive work from one day to another, and from one week to another; and if we advance this year, we are so far advanced in preparation to better go through the next year." ~ Heber C. Kimball, JD:4-329

Is there no higher symbolism in our partaking of the sacrament weekly, making the same covenants over and over again?

I could easily say you're mocking the Atonement or making light of it by saying Jesus didn't have to walk the same path we walk - that it all just came easy to him as first born spirit, never having experienced mortality before. We don't think it robbery to be equal with God - as far as I have seen, Latter-day Saints are fine with us being equal with Elohim (who is greater than Jehovah) some day, but being equal a Jehovah is somehow minimizing the Atonement?

There is one path to Godhood, and Jesus walked that path we all must walk if we choose and are able to do so. Let's say, hypothetically, it takes a dozen creations across several dozen lifetimes to become firstborn. Would it not be a mockery to try to shoehorn His great accomplishment across the eternities into one eternal round? Read this - carefully:

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon

What does it mean to go from grace to grace? Who provides grace? And, if only one being per eternal round provides grace, then what does it mean to go from grace to grace?

What about exaltation - what does it mean? If exaltation means entering the highest degrees of glory, then what does it mean to go from exaltation to exaltation until you are able to attain to the resurrection of the dead? Hrm ... I assume by "you" Joseph Smith meant you, or anyone listening to him who have already come into mortality.

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. ~ Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382

So the Holy Ghost is a step on the process right? Is there a second witness to this?

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

So not only is being the Holy Ghost a step but being a saint is a step in this long journey. Even if being a saint and being a Savior were the only two steps, that's two mortalities.

What exactly is reincarnation? Is it contrary to the teachings of the gospel? Ensign 1989

“5. Reincarnation denies the entire purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who believe that spirits and gods can repeatedly inhabit a variety of physical forms do not take into account Christ’s mission and the purpose of the Atonement. For a person who believes in reincarnation, Christ would be but one manifestation of a temporarily embodied savior—one of many possible incarnations.
To accept this premise would be to repudiate the most fundamental teaching of the gospel—that there was a single, unique act of redemption made by the Lord Jesus Christ. By denying the ultimate importance of the Atonement and of Christ’s mercy and love, those who believe in reincarnation fail to see the Savior in his rightful position as King of Kings and Lord of Lords—the only name given whereby we can be saved. (See D&C 18:23.) Though reincarnation is an interesting theory that may have a few similarities with the gospel, it denies the absolute centrality of the Atonement and must be rejected as false.”

Exactly that, thanks for sharing that. I just found this old thread because someone resurrected it, and I read the whole thing and this is the conclusion I came to. You got to choose, either you want a Savior or you want to save yourself. I suspect that some might say, reincarnation is wrong but MMP is not the same thing and I say, yes it is. The only difference is you don't come back as anything but Human, but the reason it contradicts the atonement is still there, because you don't need a Savior. It's the fact that you live a totally different life and as a new person, have to receive a testimony of Christ, repent, have faith, fulfill ordinances, etc, and then do it over and over again, for generations. Just exactly how did Christ save you from your sins if you are sent back to overcome them over and over again? You can't.

Stahura wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:25 am I've got no horse in this race, I don't personally feel a need to determine the truth of this doctrine, but Alaris certainly has me intrigued. Here is a list of Pro/Anti/Neutral statements on the idea of progression between Kingdoms(Which is a way you could describe MMP)


In 1952, the secretary to the First Presidency was directed to say the following, it was cited again in 1965:

No Official Church Doctrine:

Secretary to the First Presidency (Joseph Anderson)

“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.” (In a 1952 letter; and again in 1965 (cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. XV, No. 1, Spring 1982, p.181-183)

Statements That There Is, or Could Be, Progression Between Kingdoms

Franklin D. Richards (Later called to the Twelve in 1849)

Hiram [Smith] said Aug 1st [18]43 Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial [or] else the moon could not be a type [viz. a symbol of that kingdom]. [for] it [the moon] "waxes & wanes." (From a sermon transcribed by Franklin D. Richards in Words of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 24, 1 August 1843)

Wilford Woodruff (Quorum of the Twelve)

In conversing upon various principles President [Brigham] Young said none would inherit this Earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods and able to endure the fullness of the presence of God, except they would be permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kingdom, even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. He said they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom, but it would be a slow progress. (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, 5 Aug 1855)

Franklin D. Richards (Quorum of the Twelve)

The Savior tells us that the terrestrial glory, or kingdom, is likened unto the glory of the moon, which is not of the brightness of the sun, neither of the smallness nor dimness of the stars. But those others who have no part in marrying or giving of marriage in the last resurrection, they become as stars, and even differ from each other in glory; but those in the terrestrial kingdom are those who will come forth at the time when Enoch comes back, when the Savior comes again to dwell upon the earth; when Father Abraham will be there with the Urim and Thummim to look after every son and daughter of his race; to make known all things that are needed to be known, and with them enter into their promised inheritance. Thus the people of God will go forward. They will go forward, like unto the new moon, increasing in knowledge and brightness and glory, until they come to a fullness of celestial glory. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 25:236, 17 May 1884)

Joseph F. Smith (President)

Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for. (Improvement Era 14:87, November 1910)

J. Reuben Clark, Jr. (First Presidency)

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come. (Church News, p. 3 , 23 April 1960)

James E. Talmage (Quorum of the Twelve)

It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase. (Articles of Faith, (1899), p.420-421)

**NOTE this was the original edition, the subsequent versions adjusted the wording **

B.H. Roberts (Presidency of the Seventy)

The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial–that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory–having before them the privilege also of eternal progress–have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance into the celestial kingdom–they may arrive where these were, but never where they are. (New Witnesses for God, 1:391-392)

Statements Declaring That There is No Progression Between Kingdoms

George Albert Smith (President)

There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end. (Conference Report, October 1945, p.172)

Spencer W. Kimball (Quorum of the Twelve)

After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.50; The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.243-244)

Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve)

It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?

The answer to this question is, No!

The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.

This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.

Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now -- then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the "seeds forever." The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!

The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:31-32)

Bruce R. McConkie (Quorum of the Twelve)

There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?"

It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies - some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written:

"And they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it the revelation says:.

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all etemity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16-17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere. ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," Classic Speeches, Provo, UT: Brigham Young University, 1994, pp. 175-176)

Benaishtart wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 9:21 pm Quite simple, women will have another mortal probabation with their sealed husband. So....they won’t have nearly as many probations. No multiple husbands at the same time but might be passed on from father to son.

jmack wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:21 am

Alaris wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2019, 4:40 pm

harakim wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2019, 4:28 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 11:21 am

Once again, here are all the "go no more out" scriptures I've found:

• Alma 7:25 25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out.

• Alma 29:17 17 And now may God grant unto these, my brethren, that they may sit down in the kingdom of God; yea, and also all those who are the fruit of their labors that they may go no more out, but that they may praise him forever. And may God grant that it may be done according to my words, even as I have spoken. Amen.

• Alma 34:36 36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

• Helaman 3:30 30 And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out.

• 3 Nephi 28:40 40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

• Revelation 3:12 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

This is the first good argument I have seen against MMP. Thanks.

Against? These are clearly scriptures in favor of mmp. To go no more out is not a phrase that makes any sense if you go out only once.

Otherwise it's sort of redundant if there's never any going more out at all.

I know this is your project and you've got a lot invested in it, but sorry to say this, the scriptures are not in favor of it and 'to go no more out' is reminding us that it's this life, this life alone that we live. It's not redundant, it's emphasizing that there's only one life that is being emphasized. You've got a lot of speculative statements but no scriptures to support it. If the scriptures did support it, it would be a doctrine of the church and it's not. There's your proof.

jmack wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:30 am

Jesef wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:22 am How do you think Jesus was capable of fulfilling his mission, how was he "perfect"? Was he just born superior? Did he just get the "Lion's share" of the spiritual genes? What if he perfected himself over many rounds? What if that's the only way anyone perfects themselves? It ain't fairy dust, people! The Atonement/Grace of God allows us to continue climbing, continue learning/growing. You think you're ready for godhood because you went through some rituals? Look at your own character. Character development is the product of choice, work, your own intent - it is not a fairy dust magical gift. You must learn & grow. "God's grace"/Atonement let's us keep going, not be stopped/damned. That's my understanding.

Wow. Is it my job to know how Jesus was perfected? Did I miss a book or some verses in the Canon that tell exactly how Jesus became the only begotten Son of the Father and the only one capable of fulfilling God's plan of Salvation? No, I didn't, because God hasn't explained it, but he sure did make sure that in our Canon, it's clear that this life is the time to prepare and that each and every one of us can't save ourselves, no matter how many lifetimes we live, because he wouldn't have bothered to provide a Savior if he was going to have us overcome our sins and weaknesses through mortal living. MMP is a whole nother religion and it doesn't fit with a religion who's central doctrine is of the necessity of a Redeemer.

jmack wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:30 am

Jesef wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:22 am How do you think Jesus was capable of fulfilling his mission, how was he "perfect"? Was he just born superior? Did he just get the "Lion's share" of the spiritual genes? What if he perfected himself over many rounds? What if that's the only way anyone perfects themselves? It ain't fairy dust, people! The Atonement/Grace of God allows us to continue climbing, continue learning/growing. You think you're ready for godhood because you went through some rituals? Look at your own character. Character development is the product of choice, work, your own intent - it is not a fairy dust magical gift. You must learn & grow. "God's grace"/Atonement let's us keep going, not be stopped/damned. That's my understanding.

Wow. Is it my job to know how Jesus was perfected? Did I miss a book or some verses in the Canon that tell exactly how Jesus became the only begotten Son of the Father and the only one capable of fulfilling God's plan of Salvation? No, I didn't, because God hasn't explained it, but he sure did make sure that in our Canon, it's clear that this life is the time to prepare and that each and every one of us can't save ourselves, no matter how many lifetimes we live, because he wouldn't have bothered to provide a Savior if he was going to have us overcome our sins and weaknesses through mortal living. MMP is a whole nother religion and it doesn't fit with a religion who's central doctrine is of the necessity of a Redeemer.

Alaris wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:48 am

jmack wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:21 am

Alaris wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2019, 4:40 pm

harakim wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2019, 4:28 pm

This is the first good argument I have seen against MMP. Thanks.

Against? These are clearly scriptures in favor of mmp. To go no more out is not a phrase that makes any sense if you go out only once.

Otherwise it's sort of redundant if there's never any going more out at all.

I know this is your project and you've got a lot invested in it, but sorry to say this, the scriptures are not in favor of it and 'to go no more out' is reminding us that it's this life, this life alone that we live. It's not redundant, it's emphasizing that there's only one life that is being emphasized. You've got a lot of speculative statements but no scriptures to support it. If the scriptures did support it, it would be a doctrine of the church and it's not. There's your proof.

lol @ "my project" - what's that Alinksy tactic called? Isolate. I'm far from the first person to believe MMP, and I'm hardly alone in this belief. Reincarnation does not equal MMP. Reincarnation is the belief you can come back endlessly even as an insect or a cat. MMP is a belief in a system of progression from one rung on a ladder to the next - and there are only 7 rungs before one becomes a Son of God. That's what the scriptures demonstrate. Read the seven promises of overcoming in Revelation that coincidentally align to the dispensations, the patriarchs, the days of creation, the colors of the rainbow, the seven chakras, the beatitudes, the 7th token, the laws of the gospel, the sequence of names given ... etc. All of these demonstrate a system of progression that includes being a Savior one day along the one path to Godhood (king follet.)

Even the phrase "go no more out" makes no sense if you only go out once.

Premortal teacher: "You're going to be born in an Earth once only ever. But don't worry - because if you endure to the end, you'll 'go no more out'."

Class: *stares and looks at each other in confusion*

This idea that the scriptures don't support it is rather silly. They do support it - they get right up to that point where it spells it out clearly without quite going across that line. Why? For the folks who fall to pieces like glass when they consider another mortality. Why would that bother someone so much? And why would they go straight to thinking only such a system could be abused by endless incarnations? Could it be because they haven't overcome life but life is overcoming them? Men are that they may have joy, and if we can live in this disease-ridden, wicked sphere of death and abuse and still learn to have joy ... again, that's why, imho, there's two kinds of old folks - the bitter, angry folks and the super sweet folks who are kind to everyone despite all the woes of being old.

And this idea that every truth must be spelled out in the scriptures isn't scriptural. The Lord speaks of mysteries to be had by those who have eyes to see. Certainly those who think the scriptures must spell out every mystery in plain English don't see or understand the many scriptures and words of the prophets regarding mysteries.

When the Lord says we'll do His works and greater - is He a liar? How can we do His works if we are never afforded the opportunity to do them? Can you be His joint heir and ascend above all and receive all the father hath without ever descending below all? Or are we demi-god lesser inheritors as some here believe? Would you want to be a Savior of mankind in a future eternal round? Would you want to offer the greatest act of love? Or will you never be afforded that opportunity?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 4?lang=eng

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:40 am

jmack wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:11 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 9:29 am

Alaris wrote: ↑February 21st, 2019, 11:35 pm

You know, I was ready to thank your post and not respond and move on until that pesky little last statement. Please tell me how I personally am mocking the atonement or making light of it by believing the words of the prophets.

Did you happen read any of those things I've suggested you read?

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. ...This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. Brethren, this is the course we have to take; it is a progressive work from one day to another, and from one week to another; and if we advance this year, we are so far advanced in preparation to better go through the next year." ~ Heber C. Kimball, JD:4-329

Is there no higher symbolism in our partaking of the sacrament weekly, making the same covenants over and over again?

I could easily say you're mocking the Atonement or making light of it by saying Jesus didn't have to walk the same path we walk - that it all just came easy to him as first born spirit, never having experienced mortality before. We don't think it robbery to be equal with God - as far as I have seen, Latter-day Saints are fine with us being equal with Elohim (who is greater than Jehovah) some day, but being equal a Jehovah is somehow minimizing the Atonement?

There is one path to Godhood, and Jesus walked that path we all must walk if we choose and are able to do so. Let's say, hypothetically, it takes a dozen creations across several dozen lifetimes to become firstborn. Would it not be a mockery to try to shoehorn His great accomplishment across the eternities into one eternal round? Read this - carefully:

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. ~ Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon

What does it mean to go from grace to grace? Who provides grace? And, if only one being per eternal round provides grace, then what does it mean to go from grace to grace?

What about exaltation - what does it mean? If exaltation means entering the highest degrees of glory, then what does it mean to go from exaltation to exaltation until you are able to attain to the resurrection of the dead? Hrm ... I assume by "you" Joseph Smith meant you, or anyone listening to him who have already come into mortality.

But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again. ~ Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382

So the Holy Ghost is a step on the process right? Is there a second witness to this?

Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

So not only is being the Holy Ghost a step but being a saint is a step in this long journey. Even if being a saint and being a Savior were the only two steps, that's two mortalities.

What exactly is reincarnation? Is it contrary to the teachings of the gospel? Ensign 1989

“5. Reincarnation denies the entire purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Those who believe that spirits and gods can repeatedly inhabit a variety of physical forms do not take into account Christ’s mission and the purpose of the Atonement. For a person who believes in reincarnation, Christ would be but one manifestation of a temporarily embodied savior—one of many possible incarnations.
To accept this premise would be to repudiate the most fundamental teaching of the gospel—that there was a single, unique act of redemption made by the Lord Jesus Christ. By denying the ultimate importance of the Atonement and of Christ’s mercy and love, those who believe in reincarnation fail to see the Savior in his rightful position as King of Kings and Lord of Lords—the only name given whereby we can be saved. (See D&C 18:23.) Though reincarnation is an interesting theory that may have a few similarities with the gospel, it denies the absolute centrality of the Atonement and must be rejected as false.”

Exactly that, thanks for sharing that. I just found this old thread because someone resurrected it, and I read the whole thing and this is the conclusion I came to. You got to choose, either you want a Savior or you want to save yourself. I suspect that some might say, reincarnation is wrong but MMP is not the same thing and I say, yes it is. The only difference is you don't come back as anything but Human, but the reason it contradicts the atonement is still there, because you don't need a Savior. It's the fact that you live a totally different life and as a new person, have to receive a testimony of Christ, repent, have faith, fulfill ordinances, etc, and then do it over and over again, for generations. Just exactly how did Christ save you from your sins if you are sent back to overcome them over and over again? You can't.

Great point, thanks for sharing that.
The people who do not allow the Savior to atone for their sins are the ones who refuse his gift and refuse to meet the conditional requirements to have the Savior himself vouch for him/her at the judgement seat of God. These people will be REQUIRED to meet justice themselves by nature of Gods law (which Christ offered to satisfy on our behalf) which is DEATH!

Skirting the importance of the atonement is evil and probably exactly what the Father of Lies desires.

Stahura wrote: ↑August 13th, 2019, 11:51 am You have no idea with this guy. ...