Shredding the Constitution

[Arenera]

So why aren’t y’all outraged about this move Trump is doing? This is right now!

You guys aren’t Constitution hawks.

You come home and find someone uninvited crawling into your bedroom window, someone else picking the lock on your front door and someone else setting up a tent in your front yard.

Would you call that an emergency or not?

Its quite presidential what Trump is doing. The rest of our leaders are actually fighting against him which to me is wrong. We really messed up having two groups instead of one group representing one country. I think we should divide the country in two and let the democrates have whatever they want on their side.

He doing whats needed for our country (is it perfect, no) when there are stupid leaders who only want to cause problems and prevent our security. Makes no sense as to why.

lunbaek can give you more information, there is the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch. The executive branch is not in complete control, that is a dictatorship. Trump is not being presidential. He uses false info.

If he was so presidential, why wasn’t the wall handled when Republicans had house and senate?

[MMbelieve]

So why aren’t y’all outraged about this move Trump is doing? This is right now!

You guys aren’t Constitution hawks.

You come home and find someone uninvited crawling into your bedroom window, someone else picking the lock on your front door and someone else setting up a tent in your front yard.

Would you call that an emergency or not?

Its quite presidential what Trump is doing. The rest of our leaders are actually fighting against him which to me is wrong. We really messed up having two groups instead of one group representing one country. I think we should divide the country in two and let the democrates have whatever they want on their side.

He doing whats needed for our country (is it perfect, no) when there are stupid leaders who only want to cause problems and prevent our security. Makes no sense as to why.

lunbaek can give you more information, there is the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch. The executive branch is not in complete control, that is a dictatorship. Trump is not being presidential. He uses false info.

If he was so presidential, why wasn’t the wall handled when Republicans had house and senate?

Im not going to pretend to know why or how something ocurred or didnt occure.
To be very clear about my statement, the move is presidential indepedent of what character of a person did it.

Its not a dictatorship that we live under, even the president can be overruled. Our church is more dictatorship than our country is.

If we need the money for what many Americans and many leaders view as necessary but half the people are standing in the way and being difficult and unreasonable what do you do? Not act presidential? Not be THE leader? Not try? Give in? Hes a rebublican president representing the better half of american people (yeah i know both parties have issues) so hes using his position for the better path.

Why the dispute over a wall at a known problem area? People can still come into our country, no one is saying they cant.

[Arenera]

National Emergency!

Ok, time to go golfing.

E3272D7B-126A-499A-805A-999E1C7ACA9B.jpeg (125.82 KiB) Viewed 381 times

[[email protected]]

Who is an enemy of the Constitution? President Trump.

I hope all of you are outraged today.

I've definately not been overly impressed with President Trump over the last 12 months but acting like he's some kind of "enemy of the Constitution" is just parroting far-left talking points. He has every right to shore up our nation's southern border and curb illegal immigration. That the globalist-infested DNC works to oppose this doesn't change that fact. These kind of efforts should have taken place in ernest nearly 40 years ago.

[Arenera]

Who is an enemy of the Constitution? President Trump.

I hope all of you are outraged today.

I've definately not been overly impressed with President Trump over the last 12 months but acting like he's some kind of "enemy of the Constitution" is just parroting far-left talking points. He has every right to shore up our nation's southern border and curb illegal immigration. That the globalist-infested DNC works to oppose this doesn't change that fact. These kind of efforts should have taken place in ernest nearly 40 years ago.

He is an enemy of the Constitution, he just showed it. A wall doesn’t fix your immigration problem.

The 400k people coming across the border do it at the ports of entry. They claim asylum and are released into the country. That is your problem. Trump and the politicians aren’t fixing the issue. Trump even has illegals work at his golf resort.

[lundbaek]

Arenera, your statement that "Trump even has illegals work at his golf resort." is to me a serious accusation and I expect you to document it, "chapter and verse".

[Arenera]

Arenera, your statement that "Trump even has illegals work at his golf resort." is to me a serious accusation and I expect you to document it, "chapter and verse".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... edirect=on

Last week, The Post reported on a pipeline that provided dozens of workers without legal status for Trump’s prized golf club in Bedminster, N.J., stretching back to its construction in 2002.

Oh no, even Fox reported it. Probably not Hannity.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/dozen-undocu ... ork-report

[Fiannan]

Arenera, what is your solution to the problem? What is Mitt's solution?

[Arenera]

Arenera, what is your solution to the problem? What is Mitt's solution?

First, understand the problem. Most of the immigrants are asking for asylum. See below.

If you dont want people coming in, stop them in the other country.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... izona.html

South of the border

The journey to asylum is long and often dangerous. Those who try to cross legally always end up in a border town. We met Keisy Cortés on the Mexico side of the border.

Cortés, 25, reached Nogales a week ago after a 1,000-mile voyage. She struck out for the United States in January, she said, after a notorious gang robbed her. That was the final straw for this slight young mother who struggled alone to feed a 4-year-old daughter amid oppressive Honduran poverty and violence.

An asylum-seeker puts shoelaces back in his shoes at a metropolitan area church in Phoenix, Arizona, on Monday, Feb. 11, 2019. Refugees' shoelaces are taken from them at the border.
On Tuesday, she and little Karina sat on top of a skeletal metal bunk bed just 15 yards from the imposing steel barrier on the U.S.-Mexico border. In fact, they could see it from their rickety perch inside a crumbling cement shelter run by a small Nogales church called La Roca (The Rock).

The rust-colored, steel-slat barrier is 18 feet tall. On Super Bowl weekend, the U.S. Army finished covering the American side of the wall with barbed concertina wire. Cortés badly wants to cross the border and live on that side.

"I want to work," she said simply. "I don't care what kind of work it is."

She approached the U.S. port of entry here on Monday, got a number and was told she would have to wait at least two weeks. When it is her turn, she will surrender herself to Border Patrol and be taken into custody without having broken any laws. To win her case, she will have to testify under oath that she has a credible fear that if she is returned home she will be subject to persecution based on race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group. Fleeing poverty typically does not meet the requirements.

If the asylum officer determines Cortés has failed to demonstrate credible fear, she will be banned from reapplying for five years.

For now, she is lucky. La Roca may be crowded — at its maximum capacity of 55, like it is now, some women and children sleep on the cold cement floor — but the shelter is a safe haven run by a reformed drug addict with a kind smile and a burning desire to expand, Pastor Renán Torres.

"God changed my life," he said. "He gave me one more opportunity. I'm trying to use it."

He stood next to an open fire that blackened the bottom of a bucket heating water for the men's shower. Behind him, a group of men cut rebar with a handsaw for a new bunk bed. He takes people in off the street, people from the Northern Triangle, southern Mexico, Venezuela, Cuba, Costa Rica and Nicaragua.

"They are seeking refuge," Pastor Torres said. "We teach them the word and bless them with love and understanding."

If her asylum officer finds Cortés' fear of repatriation credible, she may remain in custody before she sees an immigration judge who will make a final determination.

Or ICE could release her until that hearing, which means she would end up in a van or bus without shoelaces, bound for a shelter in Tucson or Phoenix.

[Fiannan]

Arenera, what is your solution to the problem? What is Mitt's solution?

First, understand the problem. Most of the immigrants are asking for asylum. See below.

If you dont want people coming in, stop them in the other country.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... izona.html

South of the border

The journey to asylum is long and often dangerous. Those who try to cross legally always end up in a border town. We met Keisy Cortés on the Mexico side of the border.

Cortés, 25, reached Nogales a week ago after a 1,000-mile voyage. She struck out for the United States in January, she said, after a notorious gang robbed her. That was the final straw for this slight young mother who struggled alone to feed a 4-year-old daughter amid oppressive Honduran poverty and violence.

An asylum-seeker puts shoelaces back in his shoes at a metropolitan area church in Phoenix, Arizona, on Monday, Feb. 11, 2019. Refugees' shoelaces are taken from them at the border.
On Tuesday, she and little Karina sat on top of a skeletal metal bunk bed just 15 yards from the imposing steel barrier on the U.S.-Mexico border. In fact, they could see it from their rickety perch inside a crumbling cement shelter run by a small Nogales church called La Roca (The Rock).

The rust-colored, steel-slat barrier is 18 feet tall. On Super Bowl weekend, the U.S. Army finished covering the American side of the wall with barbed concertina wire. Cortés badly wants to cross the border and live on that side.

"I want to work," she said simply. "I don't care what kind of work it is."

She approached the U.S. port of entry here on Monday, got a number and was told she would have to wait at least two weeks. When it is her turn, she will surrender herself to Border Patrol and be taken into custody without having broken any laws. To win her case, she will have to testify under oath that she has a credible fear that if she is returned home she will be subject to persecution based on race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group. Fleeing poverty typically does not meet the requirements.

If the asylum officer determines Cortés has failed to demonstrate credible fear, she will be banned from reapplying for five years.

For now, she is lucky. La Roca may be crowded — at its maximum capacity of 55, like it is now, some women and children sleep on the cold cement floor — but the shelter is a safe haven run by a reformed drug addict with a kind smile and a burning desire to expand, Pastor Renán Torres.

"God changed my life," he said. "He gave me one more opportunity. I'm trying to use it."

He stood next to an open fire that blackened the bottom of a bucket heating water for the men's shower. Behind him, a group of men cut rebar with a handsaw for a new bunk bed. He takes people in off the street, people from the Northern Triangle, southern Mexico, Venezuela, Cuba, Costa Rica and Nicaragua.

"They are seeking refuge," Pastor Torres said. "We teach them the word and bless them with love and understanding."

If her asylum officer finds Cortés' fear of repatriation credible, she may remain in custody before she sees an immigration judge who will make a final determination.

Or ICE could release her until that hearing, which means she would end up in a van or bus without shoelaces, bound for a shelter in Tucson or Phoenix.

Oh yes, Deseret News. Why not quote CNN?

[ajax]

Republicans: shredding the Constitution in order to save it since 1861.

Funny that they couldn’t get it done constitutionally during the 2 yrs they controlled the White House and Congress. Tis indeed the Grand Old Stupid Party.

These actions are monarchal, government by fiat, king like, in the tradition of Lincoln, FDR, Truman et al.

[[email protected]]

This is an email that I originally wrote back in 2014 to address the concern of myself and other LDS friends about the lack of concern expressed by LDS Church authorities in recent years (since 1988 by my reckoning) about the responsibilities of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the Constitution of the United States.

From Jerome Horowitz, author of "The Elders of Israel And The Constitution" and "The United States Has Two Constitutions - The Gospel Key to Our True Constitution"
"Confirming our telephone conversation I think the Church is cautious about openly participating in freedom promotion activities partly because of concern about government retribution that might unduly hinder its primary religious mission and partly because so many members have been indoctrinated to favor federal dominance and federal welfare and regulation that there is concern that a strong constitutional position might split the Church." (Jerome Horowitz first came to my attention when his book "The Elders of Israel And The Constitution" was recommended by Elder Ezra Taft Benson during the April 1972 Church General Conference.)


From our area seventy to me
"Thank you for your recent letter and concerns about teaching the U.S. Constitution. I love the fact that you have made this apart of your teaching in the home. I love the freedoms we enjoy because of the Constitution and feel, as do you, that there are troubling things out there that are putting the Constitution at risk.

"Of course, the concern for priesthood leaders is the difficulty when a church sponsored "U.S. Constitution" presentation becomes a political forum for a wonderful member who believes he/she is doing the right thing. The members attending a fireside of this nature general fall into two camps. Those politically "in-line" with the presenter see no concerns with the presentation. Those who have a different political bent feel like the church is sponsoring a political rally for party with whom the presenter is aligned. Hard feelings ensue.

"Additionally, when this occurs (a "U.S. Constitution" fireside that becomes a political rally) it is almost impossible for the presiding priesthood leader to stop the presentation. It is more difficult when the presenter is a member residing outside the unit boundaries where the presentation is being given.

"Thank you again for your letter. I have no problem with families, wards and stakes providing teaching about the U.S. Constitution that is consistent with gospel principles. I would recommend that anyone presenting in ward or stake settings be individuals residing within the ward or stake boundaries or individuals known by the local priesthood leaders."


This I think gives a good indication of the two major objections to discussing the US Constitution and the doctrinal imperative LDS people have to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution. I and a few others have tried our best to persuade our local Church authorities to organize events, especially firesides, for the purpose of educating members, especially younger members like YM & YW & young single adults, about the importance of the US Constitution and freedom. I have gotten a number of responses like these, as have other members as well. I suspose one could get the idea that there is no interest in or even opposition to members promoting our sacred duty to honour the Constitution and to honour freedom, as President Packer stated to the 2009 Provo Freedom Festival, up at 50 East North Temple St. in SLC. But I think the concern is there, but being kept under wraps for the reasons stated above.
In May of this year (2014) Elder Dallin Oaks stated in an interview on KSL NewsRadio in SLC "I see it as a responsibility for well educated citizens, members of the bar and opinion leaders to be acquainted with the United States Constitution and its guarantees."
Also, a good friend is home teacher to Elder L. Tom Perry. I had asked him to ask Elder Perry if members of the Church are still responsible to abide by the US Constitution. My friend emailed me back: "Just got home from HT. Should members of the Church still study and live by the US Constitution? "Absolutely!" He seemed quite disgusted about what is going on in this country but reiterated that the Constitution has not become less, but more important. in our day."

Should members of the Church still study and live by the US Constitution? "Absolutely!"

So why aren’t y’all outraged about this move Trump is doing? This is right now!

You guys aren’t Constitution hawks.

Because this particular action is not actually unconstitutional??? Really the only unconstitutional action I see Trump has taken since his presidency started was the bumpstock ban (yes that was stupid and should get thrown out in court).

[Fiannan]

I consider Deseret News as a globalist publication in the same way as CNN is. So why should I trust articles?

[tmac]

Arenera wrote:

Most of the immigrants are asking for asylum.

I'm just curious, Arenera, to what extent do you live in an area seriously impacted by this issue, and to what extent do you have the opportunity to personally observe and/or have personal contact with illegal immigrants?

As far as I can tell, your end of this whole discussion really has little, if anything, to do with the real substantive issues, but has almost entirely to do with your dislike for Donald Trump -- which means that it wouldn't matter what he did, you would complain about it, and act like that itself is some kind of national emergency.

As far as I can tell, although people in the immigrant caravan -- who constitute a drop in the bucket -- may be seeking asylum, but the vast majority of illegal immigrants are not asylum seekers. In my experience and observation, the vast, vast majority of illegal immigrants in this country are simply looking for work. Many of them send almost all their money back home, and many of them would return if there were better economic opportunities at home. Most of them are not looking for asylum. Many of them couldn't really care less about their legal status -- as long as they can find work, earn money, and are not deported. And then there is the other niche minority, who are also here illegally, and derive their livelihood almost entirely from a wide range of illegal and criminal activities, including drug trafficking. They likewise have little interest in asylum.

You are attempting to argue the exception as if it is the rule.

I agree with Lundbeck that the single biggest issue at play is the advance of globalist socialism, which after decades of acceleration, President Trump seems to be having a somewhat chilling effect on -- which has a lot of people, including essentially 100% of mainstream media, upset. I often scratch my head and even disagree with Trump's tactics and approach, but like someone very astutely observed -- he seems to be pissing-off all the right people. That's got to tell us something.

[gkearney]

It is worth pointing out however that if a person crosses the boarder, either at a port of entry or otherwise and presents him or herself to a Customs and Immigration officer or a Border Patrol officer and asks for asylum they have not committed a crime. It is legal to enter the U.S. in order to ask for asylum.

[TheSnail]

This is an email that I originally wrote back in 2014 to address the concern of myself and other LDS friends about the lack of concern expressed by LDS Church authorities in recent years (since 1988 by my reckoning) about the responsibilities of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the Constitution of the United States.

From Jerome Horowitz, author of "The Elders of Israel And The Constitution" and "The United States Has Two Constitutions - The Gospel Key to Our True Constitution"
"Confirming our telephone conversation I think the Church is cautious about openly participating in freedom promotion activities partly because of concern about government retribution that might unduly hinder its primary religious mission and partly because so many members have been indoctrinated to favor federal dominance and federal welfare and regulation that there is concern that a strong constitutional position might split the Church." (Jerome Horowitz first came to my attention when his book "The Elders of Israel And The Constitution" was recommended by Elder Ezra Taft Benson during the April 1972 Church General Conference.)


From our area seventy to me
"Thank you for your recent letter and concerns about teaching the U.S. Constitution. I love the fact that you have made this apart of your teaching in the home. I love the freedoms we enjoy because of the Constitution and feel, as do you, that there are troubling things out there that are putting the Constitution at risk.

"Of course, the concern for priesthood leaders is the difficulty when a church sponsored "U.S. Constitution" presentation becomes a political forum for a wonderful member who believes he/she is doing the right thing. The members attending a fireside of this nature general fall into two camps. Those politically "in-line" with the presenter see no concerns with the presentation. Those who have a different political bent feel like the church is sponsoring a political rally for party with whom the presenter is aligned. Hard feelings ensue.

"Additionally, when this occurs (a "U.S. Constitution" fireside that becomes a political rally) it is almost impossible for the presiding priesthood leader to stop the presentation. It is more difficult when the presenter is a member residing outside the unit boundaries where the presentation is being given.

"Thank you again for your letter. I have no problem with families, wards and stakes providing teaching about the U.S. Constitution that is consistent with gospel principles. I would recommend that anyone presenting in ward or stake settings be individuals residing within the ward or stake boundaries or individuals known by the local priesthood leaders."


This I think gives a good indication of the two major objections to discussing the US Constitution and the doctrinal imperative LDS people have to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution. I and a few others have tried our best to persuade our local Church authorities to organize events, especially firesides, for the purpose of educating members, especially younger members like YM & YW & young single adults, about the importance of the US Constitution and freedom. I have gotten a number of responses like these, as have other members as well. I suspose one could get the idea that there is no interest in or even opposition to members promoting our sacred duty to honour the Constitution and to honour freedom, as President Packer stated to the 2009 Provo Freedom Festival, up at 50 East North Temple St. in SLC. But I think the concern is there, but being kept under wraps for the reasons stated above.
In May of this year (2014) Elder Dallin Oaks stated in an interview on KSL NewsRadio in SLC "I see it as a responsibility for well educated citizens, members of the bar and opinion leaders to be acquainted with the United States Constitution and its guarantees."
Also, a good friend is home teacher to Elder L. Tom Perry. I had asked him to ask Elder Perry if members of the Church are still responsible to abide by the US Constitution. My friend emailed me back: "Just got home from HT. Should members of the Church still study and live by the US Constitution? "Absolutely!" He seemed quite disgusted about what is going on in this country but reiterated that the Constitution has not become less, but more important. in our day."

Should members of the Church still study and live by the US Constitution? "Absolutely!"

So why aren’t y’all outraged about this move Trump is doing? This is right now!

You guys aren’t Constitution hawks.

There are about 100 constitutional violations that are bigger than this supposed one, that are going on RIGHT NOW.

You don't care about any of them, you only want to get your traitor Democrats in office to finish the job, and Trump is a major obstacle.

Obvious tactics are obvious.

[TheSnail]

Arenara, why are you even on LDS freedom forum? You have spoken our against the Constitution in numerous occasions. This makes me think you are not even LDS, let alone a supporter of freedom.

Now your posts pretend that you care about the Constitution, and gloat about Democrat midterm victories that give the biggest enemies of liberty more power.

Is your position that we should get rid of trump so Democrats can protect and preserve the Constitution?

I don't think so. Your position is to sow discord among people that support liberty. If we all blocked you, we'd be better for it.

[Arenera]

Arenara, why are you even on LDS freedom forum? You have spoken our against the Constitution in numerous occasions. This makes me think you are not even LDS, let alone a supporter of freedom.

Now your posts pretend that you care about the Constitution, and gloat about Democrat midterm victories that give the biggest enemies of liberty more power.

Is your position that we should get rid of trump so Democrats can protect and preserve the Constitution?

I don't think so. Your position is to sow discord among people that support liberty. If we all blocked you, we'd be better for it.

Well Fred, is you name Fred? You tout Freedom and Constitution. God is giving you a test. Are you really for the Constitution? If so, why are you supporting Trump in this obvious attempt to circumvent the Constitution?

I am calling all of you out, I think you are hippocrites. Who is really for freedom here?

[Arenera]

16 states have joined to sue Trump’s Emergency.

The attorneys general from Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon and Virginia joined California in the lawsuit.

I’m actually more interested in a Joint Resolution to see how the senators vote.

[tmac]

Nothing like genuine efforts to slow down globalism to unite Progressives -- and bring out peoples' true colors.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... alism.html

[Arenera]

Nothing like genuine efforts to slow down globalism to unite Progressives -- and bring out peoples' true colors.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... alism.html

The globalists are coming! The heck with the Constitution, we need to give Trump all power.

Isn’t that what happened with Hitler?

[Sarah]

Looks like Trump signed the NDAA. That was like the number one complaint I heard about Romney during the election.

[tmac]

The globalists are coming! The heck with the Constitution, we need to give Trump all power.

What evidence is there that the people complaining about what Trump has done have any genuine concern about the Constitution and/or make any real effort themselves to live and act by the Constitution?

[Arenera]

The globalists are coming! The heck with the Constitution, we need to give Trump all power.

What evidence is there that the people complaining have any genuine concern about the Constitution and/or make any real effort themselves to live and act by the Constitution?

lunbaek asks Mormons to study the Constitution. This current event is a good test for us. Just because others don’t, isn’t an excuse for us, and especially our elected leaders, to go against the Constitution.

[tmac]

lunbaek asks Mormons to study the Constitution. This current event is a good test for us. Just because others don’t, isn’t an excuse for us, and especially our elected leaders, to go against the Constitution.

So what are you suggesting -- if Trump commits what you believe to be a Constitutional violation, people should make a bigger fuss about that than all the other obvious constitutional violations and thumbing noses at the constitution that occur on a regular basis? What are you saying?