LDS Freedom Forum

lundbaek wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 2:44 pm in position to influence Latter-day Saints to espouse candidates and programs that are dangerous to our liberty.

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 9:30 am Who is an enemy of the Constitution? President Trump.

I hope all of you are outraged today.

gkearney wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Serragon wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 12:35 pm

gkearney wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 10:18 am

mes5464 wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 9:53 am

What exactly did he do that you think was unconstitutional?

It violates Article I of the Constitution, congress, not the president, controls the pursestrings. If they let him do this they will regret it by and by when another president decide that he can just circumvent congress and the constitution on say something like national health car, climate change or anything else.

Previous presidents have been doing this on a regular basis. We currently have 31 active national emergencies dating all the way back to the Clinton years.

It seems rather disengenuous of Arenera to start a thread accusing Trump of shredding the constitution when he has been the least abusive of this power of any modern president.

Perhaps there are threads by Arenera accusing Obama and Clinton of shredding the constitution as well? But it is clear from previous threads that Arenera is anti Trump and not pro-constitution. This is just a convenient stool for him on which to grandstand.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/politics ... index.html

Just because others have done damage to the Constitution does not mean that it is OK to do so.

lundbaek wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 9:39 am Which of all the 2016 presidential candidates would have been any more loyal to the U.S. Constitution?

Did anybody vote for the Constitution Party candidate Darrell Castle?

Lexew1899 wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:33 pm He didn't have to declare a national emergency. Congress is a kleptocratic institution, so he had no choice. When you have drug cartels controlling large areas of our borders, trafficking drugs and humans, it is clear it is a national emergency. Too many children especially being sex trafficked. Sickening that people don't think that is an emergency.

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Lexew1899 wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:33 pm He didn't have to declare a national emergency. Congress is a kleptocratic institution, so he had no choice. When you have drug cartels controlling large areas of our borders, trafficking drugs and humans, it is clear it is a national emergency. Too many children especially being sex trafficked. Sickening that people don't think that is an emergency.

Trump said in his comments, I didn’t have to. By his own submission, it is not an emergency.

Where have you been for the last 20 years? The problems are the port of entries. A wall doesn’t fix that.

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 9:57 am

mes5464 wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 9:53 am

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 9:30 am Who is an enemy of the Constitution? President Trump.

I hope all of you are outraged today.

What exactly did he do that you think was unconstitutional?

Declaring a National Emergency. It isn't. Redirecting Military funds to a wall. Congress decides where money goes, not the wannabe dictator.

Serragon wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Lexew1899 wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:33 pm He didn't have to declare a national emergency. Congress is a kleptocratic institution, so he had no choice. When you have drug cartels controlling large areas of our borders, trafficking drugs and humans, it is clear it is a national emergency. Too many children especially being sex trafficked. Sickening that people don't think that is an emergency.

Trump said in his comments, I didn’t have to. By his own submission, it is not an emergency.

Where have you been for the last 20 years? The problems are the port of entries. A wall doesn’t fix that.

Curious why it took you 40+ years before this type of action began to concern you....

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Lexew1899 wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:33 pm He didn't have to declare a national emergency. Congress is a kleptocratic institution, so he had no choice. When you have drug cartels controlling large areas of our borders, trafficking drugs and humans, it is clear it is a national emergency. Too many children especially being sex trafficked. Sickening that people don't think that is an emergency.

Trump said in his comments, I didn’t have to. By his own submission, it is not an emergency.

Where have you been for the last 20 years? The problems are the port of entries. A wall doesn’t fix that.

TheSnail wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 12:16 am

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Lexew1899 wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:33 pm He didn't have to declare a national emergency. Congress is a kleptocratic institution, so he had no choice. When you have drug cartels controlling large areas of our borders, trafficking drugs and humans, it is clear it is a national emergency. Too many children especially being sex trafficked. Sickening that people don't think that is an emergency.

Trump said in his comments, I didn’t have to. By his own submission, it is not an emergency.

Where have you been for the last 20 years? The problems are the port of entries. A wall doesn’t fix that.

That's attempted mind reading. Lots of emergencies get ignored by presidents, and they don't have to do anything about it. In fact, this emergency has been going on for at least 20 years, and previous presidents have done nothing about it.

Caravans of illegal aliens are not coming through the ports of entry, they are coming through the border, therefore the emergency is at the border.

lundbaek wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 9:39 am Which of all the 2016 presidential candidates would have been any more loyal to the U.S. Constitution?

Did anybody vote for the Constitution Party candidate Darrell Castle?

David13 wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 7:55 am

TheSnail wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 12:16 am

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Lexew1899 wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:33 pm He didn't have to declare a national emergency. Congress is a kleptocratic institution, so he had no choice. When you have drug cartels controlling large areas of our borders, trafficking drugs and humans, it is clear it is a national emergency. Too many children especially being sex trafficked. Sickening that people don't think that is an emergency.

Trump said in his comments, I didn’t have to. By his own submission, it is not an emergency.

Where have you been for the last 20 years? The problems are the port of entries. A wall doesn’t fix that.

That's attempted mind reading. Lots of emergencies get ignored by presidents, and they don't have to do anything about it. In fact, this emergency has been going on for at least 20 years, and previous presidents have done nothing about it.

Caravans of illegal aliens are not coming through the ports of entry, they are coming through the border, therefore the emergency is at the border.

For many many years, they have been going over land, over barren, uninhabited land mostly in Arizona, or much in Arizona. In caravans, or groups of 5 or 10 or so, as they could get a guide to take them.

That has been the situation for many years now, and that is something that was rather common knowledge in southern California.
dc

Arenera wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 8:52 am

David13 wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 7:55 am

TheSnail wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 12:16 am

Arenera wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Trump said in his comments, I didn’t have to. By his own submission, it is not an emergency.

Where have you been for the last 20 years? The problems are the port of entries. A wall doesn’t fix that.

That's attempted mind reading. Lots of emergencies get ignored by presidents, and they don't have to do anything about it. In fact, this emergency has been going on for at least 20 years, and previous presidents have done nothing about it.

Caravans of illegal aliens are not coming through the ports of entry, they are coming through the border, therefore the emergency is at the border.

For many many years, they have been going over land, over barren, uninhabited land mostly in Arizona, or much in Arizona. In caravans, or groups of 5 or 10 or so, as they could get a guide to take them.

That has been the situation for many years now, and that is something that was rather common knowledge in southern California.
dc

Let’s do some math.

398,000 people came across the border in 2018. Well, Trump and the GOP were in control, hmmmmm.

Ok, 398k / 10 = 39,800 groups of 10. 39,800 / 365 = 109 groups per day.

So you are saying 109 groups per day are coming across unfenced border? Help Trump out, get ur guns and go protect the border.

lundbaek wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 9:26 am This is an email that I originally wrote back in 2014 to address the concern of myself and other LDS friends about the lack of concern expressed by LDS Church authorities in recent years (since 1988 by my reckoning) about the responsibilities of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the Constitution of the United States.

From Jerome Horowitz, author of "The Elders of Israel And The Constitution" and "The United States Has Two Constitutions - The Gospel Key to Our True Constitution"
"Confirming our telephone conversation I think the Church is cautious about openly participating in freedom promotion activities partly because of concern about government retribution that might unduly hinder its primary religious mission and partly because so many members have been indoctrinated to favor federal dominance and federal welfare and regulation that there is concern that a strong constitutional position might split the Church." (Jerome Horowitz first came to my attention when his book "The Elders of Israel And The Constitution" was recommended by Elder Ezra Taft Benson during the April 1972 Church General Conference.)


From our area seventy to me
"Thank you for your recent letter and concerns about teaching the U.S. Constitution. I love the fact that you have made this apart of your teaching in the home. I love the freedoms we enjoy because of the Constitution and feel, as do you, that there are troubling things out there that are putting the Constitution at risk.

"Of course, the concern for priesthood leaders is the difficulty when a church sponsored "U.S. Constitution" presentation becomes a political forum for a wonderful member who believes he/she is doing the right thing. The members attending a fireside of this nature general fall into two camps. Those politically "in-line" with the presenter see no concerns with the presentation. Those who have a different political bent feel like the church is sponsoring a political rally for party with whom the presenter is aligned. Hard feelings ensue.

"Additionally, when this occurs (a "U.S. Constitution" fireside that becomes a political rally) it is almost impossible for the presiding priesthood leader to stop the presentation. It is more difficult when the presenter is a member residing outside the unit boundaries where the presentation is being given.

"Thank you again for your letter. I have no problem with families, wards and stakes providing teaching about the U.S. Constitution that is consistent with gospel principles. I would recommend that anyone presenting in ward or stake settings be individuals residing within the ward or stake boundaries or individuals known by the local priesthood leaders."


This I think gives a good indication of the two major objections to discussing the US Constitution and the doctrinal imperative LDS people have to learn, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution. I and a few others have tried our best to persuade our local Church authorities to organize events, especially firesides, for the purpose of educating members, especially younger members like YM & YW & young single adults, about the importance of the US Constitution and freedom. I have gotten a number of responses like these, as have other members as well. I suspose one could get the idea that there is no interest in or even opposition to members promoting our sacred duty to honour the Constitution and to honour freedom, as President Packer stated to the 2009 Provo Freedom Festival, up at 50 East North Temple St. in SLC. But I think the concern is there, but being kept under wraps for the reasons stated above.
In May of this year (2014) Elder Dallin Oaks stated in an interview on KSL NewsRadio in SLC "I see it as a responsibility for well educated citizens, members of the bar and opinion leaders to be acquainted with the United States Constitution and its guarantees."
Also, a good friend is home teacher to Elder L. Tom Perry. I had asked him to ask Elder Perry if members of the Church are still responsible to abide by the US Constitution. My friend emailed me back: "Just got home from HT. Should members of the Church still study and live by the US Constitution? "Absolutely!" He seemed quite disgusted about what is going on in this country but reiterated that the Constitution has not become less, but more important. in our day."

So why aren’t y’all outraged about this move Trump is doing? This is right now!

You guys aren’t Constitution hawks.

lundbaek wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 9:51 am I am aware of several members of the LDSFF who have studied the US Constitution and not only live by it themselves but also try to persuade others to study and live by it. I think all of us realize that President Trump is not seriously abiding by the Constitution, but neither does Mitt Romney.

Fiannan wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 9:49 am

So why aren’t y’all outraged about this move Trump is doing? This is right now!

You guys aren’t Constitution hawks.

You come home and find someone uninvited crawling into your bedroom window, someone else picking the lock on your front door and someone else setting up a tent in your front yard.

Would you call that an emergency or not?