The Polygamy Poll

[Benaishtart]

Would love to see where we are exactly

[Ezra]

My understanding of polygamy has changed with study. I believe it to be false. Used to believe the opposite.

[John Tavner]

My understanding of polygamy has changed with study. I believe it to be false. Used to believe the opposite.

I'm the same, but I try to keep a somewhat open mind about it, until I hear from the Lord myself.

[Rose Garden]

I think consenting adults should be allowed to practice it. That said, polygamy almost always goes hand in hand with gross mistreatment of women. I think that mentally healthy adults would rarely ever practice it. I would also say that if it's a requirement for entrance into the Celestial kingdom, I'll go somewhere else.

[thestock]

I guess all those old testament prophets are pretty screwed huh? Or maybe Joseph Smith is the prophet of the dispensation of the fullness of times, and he received all of the keys of the previous dispensations… Including those that Noah gave him, which includes polygamy…

[Benaishtart]

Just Spent some time reading saints. Still teaches same old stuff about Joseph being commanded by God from an angel, part of the N&E covenant, and that it dealt with eternal sealing relationships to raise seed, and that D&C 132 was a real revelation. I don’t see the church changing anytime soon.

[John Tavner]

I guess all those old testament prophets are pretty screwed huh? Or maybe Joseph Smith is the prophet of the dispensation of the fullness of times, and he received all of the keys of the previous dispensations… Including those that Noah gave him, which includes polygamy…

The difference is that I don't think it is doctrinal. I'm not cursing our Father's for practicing it at all. It was custom at the time. I'm ok with that as I believe was God. I just don't believe it was doctrinal and I think there was a misunderstanding between what Joseph was doing and what Brigham understood he was doing.

[Mindfields]

I chose "False doctrine, but God will forgive misguided early saints" I think God will be forgiving to those suckered into practicing polygamy. He won't however be so forgiving to those leaders that did everything they could, lying, cheating, and altering church history to making it look like it came from Joseph, thus from God. Brigham and his cronies knew exactly what they were doing.

[thestock]

I chose "False doctrine, but God will forgive misguided early saints" I think God will be forgiving to those suckered into practicing polygamy. He won't however be so forgiving to those leaders that did everything they could, lying, cheating, and altering church history to making it look like it came from Joseph, thus from God. Brigham and his cronies knew exactly what they were doing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any?

[ElizaRSkousen]

Last night my husband said something that I think applies well:

“Most people these days form their opinions by thinking about something. They do little to no research on the matter.”

In our house I like to say “no study no opinion”

[Jesef]

Last night my husband said something that I think applies well:

“Most people these days form their opinions by thinking about something. They do little to no research on the matter.”

In our house I like to say “no study no opinion”

Only from approved (biased) sources, of course.

[MMbelieve]

Last night my husband said something that I think applies well:

“Most people these days form their opinions by thinking about something. They do little to no research on the matter.”

In our house I like to say “no study no opinion”

Its okay to have initial thoughts and feelings on the matter. We all do have a conscience and should have at least some level of knowing right from wrong. Research is great for facts and examples of something but its unlikey that someone researches to form a “conscience” about a particular matter.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

In my house I require 3 good reasons. If they can only find 1 or 2 then they see for themselves that they need to research better ideas. It works great. This is seperate from opinions though. One can have opinions but if they want others to believe and even accept or adopt their opinions then they do need to back it up in a reasonable and convincing way.

[MMbelieve]

I chose "False doctrine, but God will forgive misguided early saints" I think God will be forgiving to those suckered into practicing polygamy. He won't however be so forgiving to those leaders that did everything they could, lying, cheating, and altering church history to making it look like it came from Joseph, thus from God. Brigham and his cronies knew exactly what they were doing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any?

Heres an easy one, the early saints didnt even follow their own D&C in their implementation or exercise of polygamy. They took the effort to put the verses in D&C together and didnt follow it....

[thestock]

I chose "False doctrine, but God will forgive misguided early saints" I think God will be forgiving to those suckered into practicing polygamy. He won't however be so forgiving to those leaders that did everything they could, lying, cheating, and altering church history to making it look like it came from Joseph, thus from God. Brigham and his cronies knew exactly what they were doing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any?

Heres an easy one, the early saints didnt even follow their own D&C in their implementation or exercise of polygamy. They took the effort to put the verses in D&C together and didnt follow it....

Not sure I am understanding correctly. I am pretty sure the early saints practiced polygamy from the 1830's until at least the 1890's (and unofficially beyond)....

[Durzan]

My stance is a bit more nuanced than the options provided in the poll. I chose option 4, as it is the closest to my view. In essence, my stance boils down to the following points:

1. Celestial Marriage is a true doctrine and is a Celestial Law. Celestial Plural Marriage (CPM for short) is a true doctrine that is a part of the Law of Celestial Marriage.
2. Monogamy is the base standard in the Celestial Kingdom. Most, but not all, exalted beings will have one spouse and one spouse only. Exaltation generally comes with one man and one woman.
3. CPM exists because otherwise some men and women (who would otherwise be worthy of receiving exaltation) wouldn't be able to become exalted for one reason or another. Thus, it is a tender mercy of the Lord that is a necessary part of Celestial Law; without it, God would not be just nor merciful. It fulfills a similar purpose to the principles expressed in D&C 137, as well as ordinances for the dead.
4. CPM requires much sacrifice of all those involved. For the man, it requires him to develop and extend christ-like mercy and love to another woman besides his first wife, and to give her equal care and attention, so that she too can be exalted. For women, it requires you to learn how to care and rely on one another for additional support and in the aid of your common husband, purge away all notions of jealousy and enmity that might naturally arise when "fighting over a man" or the children he sired, develop additional humility and meekness, and become more christ-like in your own ways. At the end of the day, the main lesson of CPM is to learn and develop the skill to love and support everyone in the relationship unconditionally and equally, just like Christ loves and cares for each and every one of us. This is a similar principle as what is found behind the Law of Concecration.
5. CPM is sacred in nature and deals with modifications to the Law of Chasity, and is dangerous and hard to implement and maintain properly; as such it is only implemented on Earth in special circumstances under God's direction. All other times, attempting to have more than one spouse is considered a sin.
6. When implemented on Earth correctly, it acts as an intense refiner's fire fueled by sacrifice, rapidly pushing the man and all the women married to him to be more christ-like and worthy of exaltation. The sacrifice is the exclusive monogamous relationship between a single man and a single wife, and the time and effort devoted to each of them. The reward (in addition for exaltation and additional glory piled upon all involved), if successful, is an even stronger bond between the man and each of his wives in the eternities, and the developing of a powerful unifying bond between the husband and his wives as a collective. All become one with each other individually, and as a group.
7. The core purpose of CPM is to develop Christ-like love and traits through sacrifice and service. An increase of posterity is another purpose of CPM, but is not the primary purpose behind it. The man has a duty to try to provide posterity to all his wives.
8. Polygamy is a corrupted and twisted version of Celestial Plural Marriage created by the adversary, as he often does with God's laws and doctrines. By shifting the focus of plural marriage from loving service of equals, and reducing its purpose to JUST sex and propagation, Satan demeans both the man and the women, and shifts the holy principle into abominable territory where the women are shamed and demeaned (or the men, in the case of Polyandry), and the man only takes wives for the sake of sating his own lusts. The equal relationship between the man and each of his wives is therefore degraded and tossed out, and the beauty of the intended situation is lost and tainted.
9. The horrors and abuses that often come into any form of Polygamy or plural marriage here on Earth are in part the natural result of the fallen nature of man and our sinful nature here in this Telestial state of mortality (Survival of the fittest, jealousy, greed, inequality, and so forth), combined with the same natural consequences that stem from unregulated and uncontrolled desire for sex (IE breaking the law of chastity), Lucifer's machinations to present and bind us into a corrupted form of a Celestial Law (as mentioned in the previous point). This is one major reason why Heavenly Father is so guarded and protective over Marriage in general, and extremely concerned about plural marriage. CPM and plural marriage in general is a High Risk, High Reward system, and as such needs to be governed even more strictly, lest the sinful nature of man pollute and twist it.

[MMbelieve]

I chose "False doctrine, but God will forgive misguided early saints" I think God will be forgiving to those suckered into practicing polygamy. He won't however be so forgiving to those leaders that did everything they could, lying, cheating, and altering church history to making it look like it came from Joseph, thus from God. Brigham and his cronies knew exactly what they were doing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any?

Heres an easy one, the early saints didnt even follow their own D&C in their implementation or exercise of polygamy. They took the effort to put the verses in D&C together and didnt follow it....

Not sure I am understanding correctly. I am pretty sure the early saints practiced polygamy from the 1830's until at least the 1890's (and unofficially beyond)....

Not saying they didnt, I’m saying they didnt follow the rule book.

[thestock]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any?

Heres an easy one, the early saints didnt even follow their own D&C in their implementation or exercise of polygamy. They took the effort to put the verses in D&C together and didnt follow it....

Not sure I am understanding correctly. I am pretty sure the early saints practiced polygamy from the 1830's until at least the 1890's (and unofficially beyond)....

Not saying they didnt, I’m saying they didnt follow the rule book.

What rules, exactly? I am genuinely interested...

[oneClimbs]

As for the patriarchs, before the law of Moses did they have some kind of written law or commandments where it was explicitly stated how they should arrange their marriages? I don't think so, I mean you had Jacob tricked into marrying an older sister because he didn't seem to be aware of their rule that a younger sister couldn't be married before an older one so he solved it by marrying both then got involved in the ensuing baby war. God blessed them though and many tribes came from that debacle. God turns water to wine and scarlet to white as snow so why not some of those situations.

As for the early church, some may say that they should have known better. Maybe. But they believed very strongly back then that they were to gather all truths to Zion, they didn't just sit and wait for revelations, they sought out true things and appropriated them. Joseph Smith taught that and Brigham Young spoke even more clearly and powerfully about it.

There were some people like the Cocranhites that practiced plural marriage and a book that was going around Europe at the time that some of the apostles got a hold of and shared with the leadership that made a case for plural marriage being true because of the patriarchs. I could see the early brethren considering these things and thinking that they needed to be gathered in.

I think it is possible that Joseph was actually against it but after his death, they needed to make a convincing case that he was for it to secure the land in Nauvoo and Independence for the prophesied temples and such. All this polygamy stuff went public during the Temple Lot case and that is when D&C 132 materialized onto the scene and these supposed wives of Joseph appeared. The judge, in that case, did not believe the testimony of the women or any of the evidence that Joseph was a polygamist. Now, he could have been wrong and all that, I get it, but those are the facts of how things went down.

We know now that Brigham was mistaken to have pushed for the priesthood ban but if you look at the events of the time and how they interpreted the scriptures and compared them with the events of the day such as slavery and the long held traditions that pre-dated the restoration concerning blacks, slavery, and the curse of Cain, we went from ordaining black men to ceasing the practice because of what we thought the scriptures said on the matter.

Today we know that the justification for the priesthood restriction was indeed wrong, but they thought they were doing the right thing. I don't throw any of them under the bus for their actions. I do not believe that in the case of the priesthood restriction or polygamy that there was any nefarious intent. I don't think they were evil people doing evil things but if I had lived at the time without any of the modern hindsight I think I would have been right on board with them.

I think that speaks to the great mercy of God that he works with us even in our weaknesses.

Some may rightly ask, "Well, why didn't God just give a revelation and fix things?" Maybe he did. He told Joseph not to give the 116 pages to Harris but he did anyway. He had an over 2600 year strategy that involved billions of people and sacred records coming to this restoration church with very clear messages about his gospel and then condemned the church for taking lightly the Book of Mormon which speaks against polygamy in three distinct places.

Think about how many errors that God could instantly fix today that are left unfixed. He lets us make mistakes which is a part of making choices. If you are not free to make mistakes then you are not free. I don't judge any of them even though I think they were wrong.

I think Solomon and David were wrong but I love Pslams and Proverbs. I can think Brigham and Wilford were wrong but I can still like Journal of Discourses.

[MMbelieve]

Heres an easy one, the early saints didnt even follow their own D&C in their implementation or exercise of polygamy. They took the effort to put the verses in D&C together and didnt follow it....

Not sure I am understanding correctly. I am pretty sure the early saints practiced polygamy from the 1830's until at least the 1890's (and unofficially beyond)....

Not saying they didnt, I’m saying they didnt follow the rule book.

What rules, exactly? I am genuinely interested...

Read the few verses specifically about polygamy in D&C 132 and measure it agaisnt how the early saints lived it.
How many women were taken into polygamy and were they virgins? Did Joseph get conscent from Emma or did he act in secrecy and marry other women behind her back? Even one secret marriage breaks the law/rule.

Read it and tell me if you think they followed the outline in D&C

I think about it the same as I do with divorces in the church. Divorce is against god yet it happens all the time. Divorce says that anyone who marries the woman whos been out away has committed adultry (dont have exact wording in front of me) so this says that even though a couple divorces, they are still married? Or were only supposed to have one living sexual partner (divorced or not) at a time otherwise were comitting adultry.

Laying out a law and procedure then not following it is what Im talking about.

[MMbelieve]

As for the patriarchs, before the law of Moses did they have some kind of written law or commandments where it was explicitly stated how they should arrange their marriages? I don't think so, I mean you had Jacob tricked into marrying an older sister because he didn't seem to be aware of their rule that a younger sister couldn't be married before an older one so he solved it by marrying both then got involved in the ensuing baby war. God blessed them though and many tribes came from that debacle. God turns water to wine and scarlet to white as snow so why not some of those situations.

As for the early church, some may say that they should have known better. Maybe. But they believed very strongly back then that they were to gather all truths to Zion, they didn't just sit and wait for revelations, they sought out true things and appropriated them. Joseph Smith taught that and Brigham Young spoke even more clearly and powerfully about it.

There were some people like the Cocranhites that practiced plural marriage and a book that was going around Europe at the time that some of the apostles got a hold of and shared with the leadership that made a case for plural marriage being true because of the patriarchs. I could see the early brethren considering these things and thinking that they needed to be gathered in.

I think it is possible that Joseph was actually against it but after his death, they needed to make a convincing case that he was for it to secure the land in Nauvoo and Independence for the prophesied temples and such. All this polygamy stuff went public during the Temple Lot case and that is when D&C 132 materialized onto the scene and these supposed wives of Joseph appeared. The judge, in that case, did not believe the testimony of the women or any of the evidence that Joseph was a polygamist. Now, he could have been wrong and all that, I get it, but those are the facts of how things went down.

We know now that Brigham was mistaken to have pushed for the priesthood ban but if you look at the events of the time and how they interpreted the scriptures and compared them with the events of the day such as slavery and the long held traditions that pre-dated the restoration concerning blacks, slavery, and the curse of Cain, we went from ordaining black men to ceasing the practice because of what we thought the scriptures said on the matter.

Today we know that the justification for the priesthood restriction was indeed wrong, but they thought they were doing the right thing. I don't throw any of them under the bus for their actions. I do not believe that in the case of the priesthood restriction or polygamy that there was any nefarious intent. I don't think they were evil people doing evil things but if I had lived at the time without any of the modern hindsight I think I would have been right on board with them.

I think that speaks to the great mercy of God that he works with us even in our weaknesses.

Some may rightly ask, "Well, why didn't God just give a revelation and fix things?" Maybe he did. He told Joseph not to give the 116 pages to Harris but he did anyway. He had an over 2600 year strategy that involved billions of people and sacred records coming to this restoration church with very clear messages about his gospel and then condemned the church for taking lightly the Book of Mormon which speaks against polygamy in three distinct places.

Think about how many errors that God could instantly fix today that are left unfixed. He lets us make mistakes which is a part of making choices. If you are not free to make mistakes then you are not free. I don't judge any of them even though I think they were wrong.

I think Solomon and David were wrong but I love Pslams and Proverbs. I can think Brigham and Wilford were wrong but I can still like Journal of Discourses.

Well stated

[zeplin]

Hypothetical What if.

We get to the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and God tells us that polygamy is of a lower law and has no place in the Celestial Kingdom. I am a God of monogamy!

How many men are going to be depressed?

How many women are going to be excited?

[Ezra]

I guess all those old testament prophets are pretty screwed huh? Or maybe Joseph Smith is the prophet of the dispensation of the fullness of times, and he received all of the keys of the previous dispensations… Including those that Noah gave him, which includes polygamy…

Do some more research. Why wasn’t d&c 132 canonizes while joesph Smith was prophet? Why is the church under condemnation. D&c 84. What was happening in church history during that time???
Has the church ever come out of condemnation??? That’s the real question. Why?

Do we believe the Book of Mormon to be “the most correct book”? Did it condemn polygamy?

I don’t believe you have to be in a polygamy marriage to be saved in the celestial kingdom.

I don’t think polygamy is as bad as murder. I think there are much worse sins then sexual sins.

I think much more damning is abortions. Our support of wars that god has not commanded. And our failure as parents to educate our children in the gospel. And then polluting that lack luster education in socialized public brainwashing school. And television junk.

I believe the Book of Mormon to be true and the lord condemned polygamy. I think that the reason the church fell under condemnation is polygamy. And it’s why we have never crawled out of that condemnation.
Joseph Smith was a prophet. He translated the Book of Mormon. He made mistakes in his personal life like every person does. There is a reason why his polygamy history is also so confusing and incomplete. Filled in after the fact in some cases. Where he said one thing and then supposedly did the opposite.
He only had kids with Emma. So? Did he really practice it? Or was he talking about spiritual polygamy? To many holes. To many ways in which people in authority might have misused power in contradiction to scripture.
And again the church is still under condemnation.

[Durzan]

Hypothetical What if.

We get to the gates of the Celestial Kingdom and God tells us that polygamy is of a lower law and has no place in the Celestial Kingdom. I am a God of monogamy!

If the CK is wholly monogamous, then that must mean that for every man, woman, and child who is worthy of exaltation must be paired with someone of the opposite sex if they haven't been already, and not one of them must be lost. Those who were sealed to Abraham, Jacob, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, and many others as plural wives would by necessity need to be accounted for if they are to be exalted, else God would neither be just nor merciful in such a scenario. What about the men and women who were sealed, but their partner failed to keep the covenants, or any number of other situations where an individual met the requirements but needs a parter in order to ascend to exaltation? Perhaps all the children found in the CK, who died before they could be sealed would take them up. Would there be enough?

If that is the case, then I would be content with the situation, knowing that all those who were worthy of exaltation would be provided a means to achieve it, though I would be somewhat saddened that the men who had multiple wives and made it to the CK would have to be separated from each other. The men who make it to the CK would've loved each of their wives unconditionally and equally, and the wives would've grown very close to one another and overcome any flaws and misunderstandings. "Thy will be done" would ultimately be my response.

How many men are going to be depressed?

How many women are going to be excited?

Trick question there, because the only people who will get to the Celestial kingdom won't care one way or the other. IE, those worthy of exaltation in the highest degree of the CK will already have a "thy will be done" by the time they get there. So the men will simply shrug and say "thy will be done" and the women will do the same. Part of the whole point of the Gospel is to slowly shift us into a more selfless and Christ-like attitude in the first place, and being ecstatic or depressed over the CK being wholly monogamous isn't exactly Christ-like. I think, at best... there would be some sense of sadness about it for both the men and the women, but there wouldn't be a lot of hard feelings, and the women would go with the man whom God appointed them with little fuss.

Now, for a counter hypothetical:
Suppose you arrive in the CK with your spouse, and are slated for Exaltation. You talk to the Savior and Heavenly Father and find out that Celestial Plural Marriage is indeed a thing up there... and that moreover its a necessary but sacred and reserved part of Celestial Law.

Heavenly Father explains that without CPM, there would be many souls who wouldn't be able to achieve exaltation. Some died before the age of accountability, others went through mortality and were through no fault of their own able to find a significant other, and still others were sealed to someone only for their spouse to fail to keep the covenants and be lost. Some were sealed to a man who already had a wife and want to stay with him and his first wife, and others were sealed to each other falsely or because of a mistake, or were sealed to more than one parter and are having a hard time choosing.

Christ then gently points out to you and your spouse that the Atonement covers these individuals, and that sacrifice has always been a part of the gospel. He tells you that in His infinite mercy, He foresaw that while many couples would be monogamous in nature, there would be some who desired to take up the mantle of being the eternal companion of one who would otherwise not be able to make it, and those that were sealed to more than one wife and wished to be all involved wished to stay together, and that it would be unjust to deny those with such righteous desires that opportunity. Those who wanted to be with one spouse would go their way, while those who desired to be with more than one for selfless and christ-like reasons (because those with selfish reasons would not be in the CK in the first place) would be permitted the opportunity to act out of a desire to serve. Did He not promise that such things would be sorted out during the Millennium and Eternity? In all things, Agency and the desires of the heart would be preserved.

Christ gently explains that even after all the men worthy of exaltation who would be otherwise single in the Celestial Kingdom had been paired with one wife, yet there was still a significant number of women left without an help meet for eternity. He tells you that each person who wishes and was worthy to enter Exaltation with their companion before you was given the opportunity to take upon themselves additional companions if they so desired and the husband and all wives agreed to do so.

Christ then shows you and your spouse, five different women who are perfectly compatible with you and your companion... and you two alone. Two of them are people you and/or your spouse knew in life, but the other three are strangers. One by one, you and your companion gaze into each of their eyes, noting that all five of them glow with hope and shine with the radiance that comes with being a Celestial Being, before staring back into Christ's face. He explains that regardless of your choice, their exaltation is assured either way, for He would take them as His companions if no one else would.

"Well, my son and my daughter," Christ gently says. "These five need a companion to uphold the promises given to them in life and during the millennium by Me. I know this is a hard thing to ask of you. You have given so much to come here already. But, will you accept them into your companionship as equals?"

Christ stares into your eyes, awaiting your answer. What would you and your companion say?

[LDX]

Only a single guy might think polygamy is a good idea..
If its true, I think of it more than a trial than a blessing.
But people thinks its cool...?

As I said, you got to be single to think that way

[Durzan]

Only a single guy might think polygamy is a good idea..
If its true, I think of it more than a trial than a blessing.
But people thinks its cool...?

As I said, you got to be single to think that way

A trial and a sacrifice is indeed what it is. I see it not as being cool. I see it as a tender mercy that fills a potential gap in the Plan of Salvation. Do you really think a Celestial Law would be easy to live on Earth?