POLL: What would you do if the Church accepts homosexuality?

[LDS Watchman]

I'll admit that same sex attraction is a mystery to me. I don't understand what makes some people "that way." But I'll tell you what I am now absolutely convinced of: homosexuality is not a choice. Those who are attracted to members of their own sex did not "choose" to have those desires. Many would rather be dead than gay, and sadly too many young people have been so desperate to escape their own natures that they have taken their own lives. A gay man or woman can no more choose to turn heterosexual than you or I can suddenly "choose" to become gay, and only a fool would believe same sex attraction can be "cured" at will.[/color]

I get that people who struggle with same-sex attraction have it tough and for many they aren't able to overcome it.

Same-sex attraction is a mental disorder. This is how it was defined by the medical community until about 25 years ago.

Then LGBTQ activists pushed their "being gay is normal and there's nothing wrong with it" BS down everyone's throats long enough and the medical community caved to political pressure.

Like many mental disorders, the causes are not fully understood. Nor is there often a complete "cure" for someone who struggles with a mental disorder.

I don't know if my family member still has an internal struggle deep inside that he has merely been able to suppress so he can lead a normal life or if he is legitimately completely free from it.

People who struggle with bipolar disorder or many other mental health issues, usually do not fully overcome them. Some appear to be born with these issues, for others they happen later during childhood or adolescence, or sometimes in adult hood. The cause of most mental disorders are not fully understood.

People have always had mental disorders, so in a sense having one is "normal."

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean people shouldn't strive to overcome their mental issues.

Nor does having a mental disorder give someone the right to knowingly and willfully violate God's laws.

It's also critical to understand that the human psyche is very fragile and complex.

All sorts of factors can get someone to believe that they have a condition that they don't actually have.

Let's say for example that a 12 year old girl is struggling with her image. She wants boys to like her and wants a boyfriend. Yet no boys notice her for whatever reason (largely because girls are into boys before boys are into girls usually).

Maybe she has a friend who is in a similar situation. They get to talking and they decide that maybe they don't really like boys after all, instead they like girls. After all they both noticed that several girls in the school are really pretty so obviously they are into girls. They just thought they were into boys because that's what society tells them is normal. By the end of this conversation both girls think they are now lesbians or at least bisexual, when all they are is insecure teenagers going through the same struggles that most teens do.

If these girls continue to tell themselves over and over that they are lesbians, then before too long they are full fledged lesbians who are 100% convinced that they were born this way.

Then they both get girlfriends at school and they enjoy holding hands with them and the attention they are getting as being part of the ever growing gay group at school. This validates their belied that they are lesbians.

Within no time at all they have a new identity. They are no longer regular teenage girls, they are lesbians.

This sort of thing happens all the time, especially since society keeps telling us that being gay is normal.

Then these girls "come out of the closet" to their families. If they have parents who are drinking the PC kool aid then they will be accepted as lesbians without question.

If they have conservative parents who don't approve and know that their girls are just going through a weird phase or something, then the parents might tell them that they aren't lesbians and that they are merely having same sex attraction. Maybe the parents want them to talk to a therapist to get them straightened out. According to many state laws now, the parents aren't allowed to do this.

That's crazy.

For other teens maybe they legitimately have the mental disorder of same sex attraction that was manifested early in their childhood and they haven't done anything to cause it (like a kid in my ward who has lots of other mental issues too). That doesn't mean it's normal and that their parents shouldn't be able to get them help.

For other teens who identify as gay or lesbian, they have had some traumatic experience like sexual abuse that has brought it on.

Satan plays on all of these scenarios and then works hard to get these people who are in a vulnerable state to commit same-sex acts just like he tries to get everyone to commit fornication and other sexual sin.

Telling these people who are struggling with same-sex attraction that it is normal and okay to act out on it is the worst thing one can do.

It is helping Satan lead them carefully down to hell.

It's about time someone gets the the actual core of this hotly debated topic. Satan, is the author of all sin. He and his countless minions are constantly at war against all that is good. It's been that way from the beginning, and will continue until he is bound and thrust into prison by " The Angel of the Lord".
Some, or most it seems, want to blame sodomy upon "mental disorders". That is exactly what satan would have us believe. All mental disorders are directly caused by us being influenced by the adversary, and us listening to him and caving in to carnal desires. All persons with all of the "medical conditions" "bipolar" "mental disorders" etc etc etc, are very simply being bothered, influenced, possessed, oppressed, attacked, by the evil one or in some cases by legions of them.
The vast majority , if not all, of the medical world and even those of the priesthood, those that should know better, do not even understand the power of darkness from the adversary, and, he loves to have it so. Society spends great amounts of wasted time and money on psychiatric care, psychiatrists, psychology getting help from those that do not even begin to understand what ails us. So then comes along prescription and non prescription drugs that just contributes to the problem all the more.
But, also, it is necessary to be subject to, or rather tempted by both light and darkness, to see what we choose and to gain experience. "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the _____________". (Fill in with whatever suits us).

I completely agree that many, if not all, mental disorders are brought on by Satan and the unclean spirits that follow him.

I'm completely convinced that the issues defined in the New Testament as demonic possession would be defined as mental illness today.

I 100% believe that same-sex attraction is the result of demonic possession (or at least influence).

So the question is why LDS priesthood holders don't just cast these devil's out?

There's only a couple of possibilities for why this is:

A) The church no longer has the power to cast these devil's out

B) The bearers of the priesthood lack the faith to do it

C) Those who are plagued with these evil spirits lack the faith to be healed

D) The Church no longer really believes in demonic possession and therefore doesn't even attempt to do it

E) All of the above

[Lizzy60]

[/quote]
I agree that God can fully and completely heal someone of any and all mental disorders.

With enough faith all things are possible with God.

A big reason why most are not healed is because they lack the faith to be healed.

Faith is more than just a believing, faith is an action. Faith is a real power.

In the case of those struggling with same-sex attraction, the world screams so loudly that they can't overcome it and that they don't need to be healed from this because God made them this way and they are perfect the way they are, that it is very, very difficult for them to cast off all of their doubt and exercise the faith to be healed.

The fact that so many voices within the Church are now telling them that they can't be healed and shouldn't even seek healing from God, makes the plight of LDS youth struggling with SSA so much worse.
[/quote]

"So many voices within the Church..." That includes the official Church-produced Mormon and Gay website, which counsels parents that they should not expect their child to be able to change his orientation. Unbelief. Lack of faith. False Doctrine. It seems we no longer believe in miracles.

[LDS Watchman]

The longer a thread goes, the more likely it will shift into a polygamy debate. This is a law of nature.

As for the OP about the church accepting homosexuality, considering Pres. Nelson’s recent talk to millennials and Oaks’ women’s session talk, how do we still feel about that likelihood?

I suppose I'm partially to blame for keeping the polygamy debate going on this thread. I probably should have just let it go when people started wrongfully accusing our forefathers of committing whoredoms.

I guess it just really irks me when people do that, so I can't help but set them straight.

It never does any good though, so next time I should just let it go.

As the saying goes "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

Back to the original topic of the thread.

I still think it is very likely that the Church will allow gays to get married in the Church and will embrace the practice as normal and sanctioned by God.

Once Nelson and Oaks are gone things could very likely be different.

Harold B Lee would have never given blacks the priesthood, but Spencer W Kimball did.

John Taylor would have never given up plural marriage, but Wilford Woodruff did.

We'll have to wait and see what happens I guess.

When most members support gay marriage and the old guard among the apostles is gone, I expect the Church will embrace gay marriage. It might be 20 years out still, but I expect it to happen.

[LDS Watchman]

I agree that God can fully and completely heal someone of any and all mental disorders.

With enough faith all things are possible with God.

A big reason why most are not healed is because they lack the faith to be healed.

Faith is more than just a believing, faith is an action. Faith is a real power.

In the case of those struggling with same-sex attraction, the world screams so loudly that they can't overcome it and that they don't need to be healed from this because God made them this way and they are perfect the way they are, that it is very, very difficult for them to cast off all of their doubt and exercise the faith to be healed.

The fact that so many voices within the Church are now telling them that they can't be healed and shouldn't even seek healing from God, makes the plight of LDS youth struggling with SSA so much worse.
[/quote]

"So many voices within the Church..." That includes the official Church-produced Mormon and Gay website, which counsels parents that they should not expect their child to be able to change his orientation. Unbelief. Lack of faith. False Doctrine. It seems we no longer believe in miracles.
[/quote]

Amen Lizzy.

This is why the Church will eventually fully embrace homosexuality.

How can the Church forever deny gays "marriage, love, happiness, or children" when they now teach that God made them that way and that their orientation will not, and cannot, change?

It's a position they can't maintain.

[mahalanobis]

If the church seals gay couples in temples, it will be for 2 reasons:

1) a majority of members begging for it, even after decades of conference talks telling them it's not the will of the Lord. Look in the scriptures, people eventually get what they want, even if it's bad.
2) secret combinations within the church. I'm referring to the church-owned media and church marketing/PR/imaging departments in the CoB. Edit: and church-owned universities.

The reason will not be due to tax-exempt status. The tax question might play a role when the camel's back breaks, but the only reason it will matter is because of the first 2 points. If the first 2 points weren't a problem, a tax crisis would just be dealt with and managed with some adjustments.

I also fully expect the Lord to correct the issue eventually and it won't be pleasant. At least, that is my speculation.

[oneClimbs]

I still think it is very likely that the Church will allow gays to get married in the Church and will embrace the practice as normal and sanctioned by God.

Once Nelson and Oaks are gone things could very likely be different.

Harold B Lee would have never given blacks the priesthood, but Spencer W Kimball did.

John Taylor would have never given up plural marriage, but Wilford Woodruff did.

We'll have to wait and see what happens I guess.

When most members support gay marriage and the old guard among the apostles is gone, I expect the Church will embrace gay marriage. It might be 20 years out still, but I expect it to happen.

The thing about the priesthood is that it was always expected that those who were not being ordained would be eventually. As McKay said, the only reason for the ban was that they felt there was a scriptural precedent for it. I know people like to turn to this example and say it relates to the situation of same-sex marriage but only in the idea of "something changed once."

There was no grand eternal scheme in which people of a certain genealogy would be permanently restricted from the priesthood.

The doctrine of marriage IS eternal, well-defined, and the patterns go back to Eden, follow through history, and our heavenly parents are even a model. There is no eternal benefit to sealing people of the same-sex together. They cannot have an increase nor eternal life because they would not be able to continue.

You will not ever see people of the same sex sealed in the temple. I think this is only the beginning, polygamy will return in the secular world (polyamory, or "poly") and the gender religion will continue to grow more hostile and I think this will be one of the catalysts that will cause the wicked to grow ripe by casting out the righteous.

Perhaps this is why we are going home-centered because of this situation which may indeed be coming. We may very well see persecution return in full force because Satan will be waging war on the family and the work of the Lord. I don't see the church backing down on this, if anything like that does happen, I think there would be a massive rift.

I think the leaders know this and are working with the Lord on how we can be wise in these times.

We do need to be able to help those people who are being deceived by the world and taught that they have no choice. We need to figure out how to push back against these gender religion beliefs that are seeking to use the law and government to persecute those that disagree with their ideologies.

This involves the most important part of God's plan. Man and woman, procreation, children, eternal life, if there was ever a hill to die on, this is it.

For this reason, the comparison to the priesthood restriction doesn't even come close to being something you can look to as a parallel.

[oneClimbs]

The longer a thread goes, the more likely it will shift into a polygamy debate. This is a law of nature.

As for the OP about the church accepting homosexuality, considering Pres. Nelson’s recent talk to millennials and Oaks’ women’s session talk, how do we still feel about that likelihood?

Some of the pro-LGBTQ members are saying that the more Nelson and Oaks double down on the anti-gay hate speech (their words, definitely not mine) the more members there are who will cross over the bridge to accepting gay marriage, because they are seeing their loved ones hurt, committing suicide, and so on. They believe change is already coming from the bottom up. There are bishops and stake presidents who accept gay married couples and do not discipline them, and that number is growing. It seems that no one who is pro-LGBTQ is changing their mind after a talk by Nelson or Oaks, but instead it is going the other way. Each talk seems to be the straw that breaks the camel's back to turn a TBM into a pro-LGBTQ ally.

There are some feminists wielding power behind the scenes. The encroachments keep coming.

I think there would be a lot less hurt and suicide if these people who clearly have confusion and psychological issues weren't bombarded by false doctrine from the world that preaches to them another gospel and gives them a false hope about something that is unobtainable. People like to blame the church but we are simply seeking to teach the truth. It does someone no good to teach them false doctrine and that they can find happiness in diverging from God's plan.

It's a weird time, I think we are being cautious and trying to solve these issues diplomatically. But as the gender religion crowd grows more rabid, vicious, and unreasonable, the church is going to put its foot down and defend the truth.

We lost 1/3 of the host of heaven in the war in heaven. We may lose some in the war of marriage, but ultimately, human beings and their perverted ideas are not going to change the will of God. In the last three conferences, there have been talks on this issue that are clear: the doctrine of marriage is not changing.

Remember when Moses encountered Satan and he screeched and gnashed his teeth and ranted upon the earth and Moses saw the bitterness of hell and was afraid. All that ranting didn't change the truth and Moses didn't back down; neither can we.

[oneClimbs]

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thess 2:11-12

"So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God's creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen. God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds." Romans 1:24-27

Today they are demanding people give up the truth for a lie. This is not the first time the church has faced this issue.

[cab]

The longer a thread goes, the more likely it will shift into a polygamy debate. This is a law of nature.

As for the OP about the church accepting homosexuality, considering Pres. Nelson’s recent talk to millennials and Oaks’ women’s session talk, how do we still feel about that likelihood?

I suppose I'm partially to blame for keeping the polygamy debate going on this thread. I probably should have just let it go when people started wrongfully accusing our forefathers of committing whoredoms.

I guess it just really irks me when people do that, so I can't help but set them straight.

It never does any good though, so next time I should just let it go.

As the saying goes "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

Back to the original topic of the thread.

I still think it is very likely that the Church will allow gays to get married in the Church and will embrace the practice as normal and sanctioned by God.

Once Nelson and Oaks are gone things could very likely be different.

Harold B Lee would have never given blacks the priesthood, but Spencer W Kimball did.

John Taylor would have never given up plural marriage, but Wilford Woodruff did.

We'll have to wait and see what happens I guess.

When most members support gay marriage and the old guard among the apostles is gone, I expect the Church will embrace gay marriage. It might be 20 years out still, but I expect it to happen.

Interesting how in the same post you say you can't tolerate others accussing our Church of likely embracing whoredoms in the past, but that you think it's "very likely that the Church will allow gays to get married in the Church and will embrace" whoredoms in the future....

It must be nice to always maintain the moral high ground, despite such obvious double standards...

[oklds]

"The Church" will never accept any activity which is not God's will. Sexual outside of Marriage one of those activities. The instant the Men and Women who comprise this organization named "The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints" begin to practice those activities, it becomes just that: an organization of Men and Women, and no longer "The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints".

That being said, please remember: We are the ONLY Church which states, "God gave people their Agency; who are we to try to force them to change that?" Remember what President Nelson said about civil marriage? That we have nothing to do with that. Every other 'church' on earth preaches something opposed to that:

The 'LGBTQ' churches believe that they have the right to practice those things and that us 'haters' have no right to disagree with that.

The 'mainstream' churches condemn the 'LGBTQ' to hell forever, so "just placate or ignore them for now", and then they can yell, "Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah" at them on judgement day as they are led away by satan.

The 'hardcore' churches think it best to just try to make their lives as miserable as possible, so they'll be used to it when they end up in hell.

Still others think that we need to do away with them now, and let satan get his hands on them sooner rather than later.

It comes down to this: The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is the only Church that teaches, "If you want to practice those behaviors, that is your business. If you want to stop doing so, then it becomes our business."

[LDS Watchman]

The longer a thread goes, the more likely it will shift into a polygamy debate. This is a law of nature.

As for the OP about the church accepting homosexuality, considering Pres. Nelson’s recent talk to millennials and Oaks’ women’s session talk, how do we still feel about that likelihood?

I suppose I'm partially to blame for keeping the polygamy debate going on this thread. I probably should have just let it go when people started wrongfully accusing our forefathers of committing whoredoms.

I guess it just really irks me when people do that, so I can't help but set them straight.

It never does any good though, so next time I should just let it go.

As the saying goes "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

Back to the original topic of the thread.

I still think it is very likely that the Church will allow gays to get married in the Church and will embrace the practice as normal and sanctioned by God.

Once Nelson and Oaks are gone things could very likely be different.

Harold B Lee would have never given blacks the priesthood, but Spencer W Kimball did.

John Taylor would have never given up plural marriage, but Wilford Woodruff did.

We'll have to wait and see what happens I guess.

When most members support gay marriage and the old guard among the apostles is gone, I expect the Church will embrace gay marriage. It might be 20 years out still, but I expect it to happen.

Interesting how in the same post you say you can't tolerate others accussing our Church of likely embracing whoredoms in the past, but that you think it's "very likely that the Church will allow gays to get married in the Church and will embrace" whoredoms in the future....

It must be nice to always maintain the moral high ground, despite such obvious double standards...

I hope I'm wrong about the Church embracing gay marriage in a future day.

Based on Isaiah 1 and other scriptures I fear greatly that we will accept it.

The Church has gradually evolved to meet the world half way.

Based on this pattern, I also fear that we will ultimately cave to the gays.

Again, I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

On the other hand, if your take is correct and the Church embraced whoredoms in Nauvoo and early Utah, then the Church fully joined hands with Satan 180 years ago, and we should expect the Church to be full of filth inside and out, with no good fruit whatsoever.

If Satan had truly deceived us that badly back in the 1840s, then we should see a truly decrepit Satanic organization, full of blatant hypocrisy.

Abandoning plural marriage wouldn't even qualify as repenting of these whoredoms either, as we never denounced the practice as such.

If we have been in such a severe state of wickedness since the 1840s, where are all of God's prophets telling us to repent?

[Lizzy60]

It's not a double standard to believe that polygamy was sanctioned by God at times, and to also believe that homosexual marriage and sex will never be sanctioned by God at any time. That is just a statement of one person's belief system.

Another person may believe that it was a whoredom for the early saints to practice polygamy, and that it's not a whoredom to be sexually active in a same-sex marriage.

Different beliefs, yes. Double standard, no.

[oneClimbs]

How about Gary E. Stevenson's talk? "Satan would have us ignore eternal truths or replace them with something more pleasing." and "Satan always seeks to trick you, and has always pretended to be something that he is not."

I thought the metaphor of his son trying to paint the dog a different color was a great example of how many today are displeased with reality and think just changing the outer appearance of something can change what it actually is. This is a lie and a deception.

[cab]

It's not a double standard to believe that polygamy was sanctioned by God at times, and to also believe that homosexual marriage and sex will never be sanctioned by God at any time. That is just a statement of one person's belief system.

Another person may believe that it was a whoredom for the early saints to practice polygamy, and that it's not a whoredom to be sexually active in a same-sex marriage.

Different beliefs, yes. Double standard, no.

I agree with what you're saying Lizzy... I just think Mathias' comment represents one. In this thread he jumped to labeling questioners of our Church's practice of polygamy as apostates but has no problem saying that he thinks when Nelson and Oaks die the "new guard" are likely to embrace a the whoredom of homosexuality... His trying to snuff out my belief, which differs from his, represents a double standard.

[simpleton]

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thess 2:11-12

"So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God's creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen. God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds." Romans 1:24-27

Today they are demanding people give up the truth for a lie. This is not the first time the church has faced this issue.

By studying Romans 1 closely, the realization is that it is not talking about "those bad outsiders" or "those bad gentiles" or "non member evil people", or Sodom and Gamorrah, or San Francisco, it is talking about those in the church. It is talking to those into whom the truth was givin, unto whom revelation was givin to, unto those in the church that received revelations and light from God. It directly applies to us in the church, not out of the church.
Just ask yourself, why is this sodomy becoming so rampant in the church? Why are our people, who have or who have had the light, being cursed with a reprobate spirit? Why worry about those outside the vessel when we inside the vessel are corrupt and giving into sodomy, among other crimes of the flesh and spirit. Why for that matter, Mathew 23:15, "compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves".

Yes it has been restated again this weekend that the only legitimate marriage in Gods eyes is between a man and a woman, but, that by no means resolves the problem of why our very children, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc are turning to sodomy in the church in large numbers, which in turn causes some to commit suicide, which is even worse.

I say the cause is exactly what Apostle Paul describes in Roman's 1. We received the truth and we do not love it, and hold it in unrightesness. Hence we are being led about by "reprobate spirits".

[Believing Joseph]

I agree that God can fully and completely heal someone of any and all mental disorders.

With enough faith all things are possible with God.

A big reason why most are not healed is because they lack the faith to be healed.

I think you're right that God can heal these things, though simply saying that most lack the faith to be healed is nonsense.

There are a large amount of people in the world who have been mentally damaged in various ways - occasionally natural damage but usually man-made - and they are simply less accountable than the rest of us.

Does this mean that their desires should be indulged by the rest of society? Of course not. People in varying states of mental weakness are still going to respond to the influences of those around them, be they good or evil. And if you lead such people astray, you can expect the guilt to rebound on yourself.

And there's also another catch: most of the things that pass for mental disorders these days don't really deserve the label. Classifying any unwanted thought pattern or behavior as a mental disorder is something that our society has been doing for a long time - largely because the psychiatric industry, like any industry, is driven by the profit motive - but with very ugly results.

Obviously, the question of what gets classified as such has changed with our changing politics and morals - so as of 1973, homosexuality is no longer a disorder, but as of 1987 (the year that the ADHD diagnosis was created) children squirming too much and behaving poorly in grade school is. The increasing moral depravity of our society is pretty palpable here.

But just focusing on the pre-1973 situation leaves out a point that should be of importance to Christians: the authors of the Bible, though aware of the existence of mental disorders (i.e. when Jesus heals the lunatics) didn't classify homosexuality as such. And why would they? The Greeks and Romans had no concept of sexual orientation - for them, at least among the upper classes, sodomy was something that most people engaged in at some point in their lives.

Hence Paul's inclusion of it in ordinary lists of sins, as something that happened when "God gave them over to a reprobate mind," and as something that can be repented of. And the thing is, it worked. After a few centuries, the Greco-Roman world was Christianized and the people had successfully given up homosexuality, without ever conceptualizing it as a mental illness of which they needed cured.

[mahalanobis]

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thess 2:11-12

"So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God's creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen. God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds." Romans 1:24-27

Today they are demanding people give up the truth for a lie. This is not the first time the church has faced this issue.

By studying Romans 1 closely, the realization is that it is not talking about "those bad outsiders" or "those bad gentiles" or "non member evil people", or Sodom and Gamorrah, or San Francisco, it is talking about those in the church. It is talking to those into whom the truth was givin, unto whom revelation was givin to, unto those in the church that received revelations and light from God. It directly applies to us in the church, not out of the church.
Just ask yourself, why is this sodomy becoming so rampant in the church? Why are our people, who have or who have had the light, being cursed with a reprobate spirit? Why worry about those outside the vessel when we inside the vessel are corrupt and giving into sodomy, among other crimes of the flesh and spirit. Why for that matter, Mathew 23:15, "compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves".

Yes it has been restated again this weekend that the only legitimate marriage in Gods eyes is between a man and a woman, but, that by no means resolves the problem of why our very children, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc are turning to sodomy in the church in large numbers, which in turn causes some to commit suicide, which is even worse.

I say the cause is exactly what Apostle Paul describes in Roman's 1. We received the truth and we do not love it, and hold it in unrightesness. Hence we are being led about by "reprobate spirits".

I actually think you are touching on something pretty important to understand. There are some who learn the gospel, then eventually decide they're not interested even after knowing it's true.

I suspect this will happen during the millennium too. Satan will be bound and we'll have Zion, but over the course of 1000 years some will exercise their agency and decide that they just aren't interested in God's plan (even while knowing the consequences and independent of Satan's temptations). I think this will be what unbindes Satan at the end in preparation for the final battle.

This concept shouldn't be too surprising. Afterall, a third part (whatever that means) rejected God's plan even while beholding Him and His glory.

As Jesus said: "Men love darkness more than light"

[LDS Watchman]

I agree that God can fully and completely heal someone of any and all mental disorders.

With enough faith all things are possible with God.

A big reason why most are not healed is because they lack the faith to be healed.

I think you're right that God can heal these things, though simply saying that most lack the faith to be healed is nonsense.

There are a large amount of people in the world who have been mentally damaged in various ways - occasionally natural damage but usually man-made - and they are simply less accountable than the rest of us.

Does this mean that their desires should be indulged by the rest of society? Of course not. People in varying states of mental weakness are still going to respond to the influences of those around them, be they good or evil. And if you lead such people astray, you can expect the guilt to rebound on yourself.

And there's also another catch: most of the things that pass for mental disorders these days don't really deserve the label. Classifying any unwanted thought pattern or behavior as a mental disorder is something that our society has been doing for a long time - largely because the psychiatric industry, like any industry, is driven by the profit motive - but with very ugly results.

Obviously, the question of what gets classified as such has changed with our changing politics and morals - so as of 1973, homosexuality is no longer a disorder, but as of 1987 (the year that the ADHD diagnosis was created) children squirming too much and behaving poorly in grade school is. The increasing moral depravity of our society is pretty palpable here.

But just focusing on the pre-1973 situation leaves out a point that should be of importance to Christians: the authors of the Bible, though aware of the existence of mental disorders (i.e. when Jesus heals the lunatics) didn't classify homosexuality as such. And why would they? The Greeks and Romans had no concept of sexual orientation - for them, at least among the upper classes, sodomy was something that most people engaged in at some point in their lives.

Hence Paul's inclusion of it in ordinary lists of sins, as something that happened when "God gave them over to a reprobate mind," and as something that can be repented of. And the thing is, it worked. After a few centuries, the Greco-Roman world was Christianized and the people had successfully given up homosexuality, without ever conceptualizing it as a mental illness of which they needed cured.

I suppose we could debate whether or not having homosexual tendencies is a mental disorder.

Maybe that's not the best term for what is going on. Maybe it is.

The truth is Satan and his unclean spirits are the one's driving people to have these temptations and to act out on them.

So why aren't LDS people who have these issues being cured of it then?

A few are, but most aren't.

Is it a lack of faith, a lack of priesthood power in the Church today, or something else?

And why is the Church no longer teaching that a cure for SSA should be expected?

[catcatinabox]

I agree that God can fully and completely heal someone of any and all mental disorders.

With enough faith all things are possible with God.

A big reason why most are not healed is because they lack the faith to be healed.

I think you're right that God can heal these things, though simply saying that most lack the faith to be healed is nonsense.

There are a large amount of people in the world who have been mentally damaged in various ways - occasionally natural damage but usually man-made - and they are simply less accountable than the rest of us.

Does this mean that their desires should be indulged by the rest of society? Of course not. People in varying states of mental weakness are still going to respond to the influences of those around them, be they good or evil. And if you lead such people astray, you can expect the guilt to rebound on yourself.

And there's also another catch: most of the things that pass for mental disorders these days don't really deserve the label. Classifying any unwanted thought pattern or behavior as a mental disorder is something that our society has been doing for a long time - largely because the psychiatric industry, like any industry, is driven by the profit motive - but with very ugly results.

Obviously, the question of what gets classified as such has changed with our changing politics and morals - so as of 1973, homosexuality is no longer a disorder, but as of 1987 (the year that the ADHD diagnosis was created) children squirming too much and behaving poorly in grade school is. The increasing moral depravity of our society is pretty palpable here.

But just focusing on the pre-1973 situation leaves out a point that should be of importance to Christians: the authors of the Bible, though aware of the existence of mental disorders (i.e. when Jesus heals the lunatics) didn't classify homosexuality as such. And why would they? The Greeks and Romans had no concept of sexual orientation - for them, at least among the upper classes, sodomy was something that most people engaged in at some point in their lives.

Hence Paul's inclusion of it in ordinary lists of sins, as something that happened when "God gave them over to a reprobate mind," and as something that can be repented of. And the thing is, it worked. After a few centuries, the Greco-Roman world was Christianized and the people had successfully given up homosexuality, without ever conceptualizing it as a mental illness of which they needed cured.

I suppose we could debate whether or not having homosexual tendencies is a mental disorder.

Maybe that's not the best term for what is going on. Maybe it is.

The truth is Satan and his unclean spirits are the one's driving people to have these temptations and to act out on them.

So why aren't LDS people who have these issues being cured of it then?

A few are, but most aren't.

Is it a lack of faith, a lack of priesthood power in the Church today, or something else?

And why is the Church no longer teaching that a cure for SSA should be expected?

Easy, lack of faith in Christ.

[LDS Watchman]

It's not a double standard to believe that polygamy was sanctioned by God at times, and to also believe that homosexual marriage and sex will never be sanctioned by God at any time. That is just a statement of one person's belief system.

Another person may believe that it was a whoredom for the early saints to practice polygamy, and that it's not a whoredom to be sexually active in a same-sex marriage.

Different beliefs, yes. Double standard, no.

I agree with what you're saying Lizzy... I just think Mathias' comment represents one. In this thread he jumped to labeling questioners of our Church's practice of polygamy as apostates but has no problem saying that he thinks when Nelson and Oaks die the "new guard" are likely to embrace a the whoredom of homosexuality... His trying to snuff out my belief, which differs from his, represents a double standard.

I never specifically referred to you as an apostate. I was referring to apostate groups like the Snufferites who are currently the loudest advocates for the idea that Brigham Young and the other apostles committed whoredoms and led the rest of the Church to embrace whoredoms as well.

It's not a double standard to believe in the early teachings of the Church while lamenting the modern Church caving to the world.

[righteousrepublic]

I suspect this will happen during the millennium too. Satan will be bound and we'll have Zion, but over the course of 1000 years some will exercise their agency and decide that they just aren't interested in God's plan (even while knowing the consequences and independent of Satan's temptations).

Does this notion come from speculation or pure knowledge?

Is the Millennium in a telestial or a terrestrial state?
Will people be in a full mortal state or a partial immortal state?
Will there only be Latter-day Saints living with Jesus for a thousand years?
Will Jesus allow people with half hearted commitment to enter into the Millennium and live with him in the first place?

[mahalanobis]

I suspect this will happen during the millennium too. Satan will be bound and we'll have Zion, but over the course of 1000 years some will exercise their agency and decide that they just aren't interested in God's plan (even while knowing the consequences and independent of Satan's temptations).

Does this notion come from speculation or pure knowledge?

Is the Millennium in a telestial or a terrestrial state?
Will people be in a full mortal state or a partial immortal state?
Will there only be Latter-day Saints living with Jesus for a thousand years?
Will Jesus allow people with half hearted commitment to enter into the Millennium and live with him in the first place?

I said "I suspect".

Will people lose their agency during the millennium? Will the judgement have taken place? Will Satan be unbound on accident like we misplaced the key and the guard dog happens to carry the key over to him?
No, no, and no.

If I'm wrong, all the better.

[oneClimbs]

By studying Romans 1 closely, the realization is that it is not talking about "those bad outsiders" or "those bad gentiles" or "non member evil people", or Sodom and Gamorrah, or San Francisco, it is talking about those in the church. It is talking to those into whom the truth was givin, unto whom revelation was givin to, unto those in the church that received revelations and light from God. It directly applies to us in the church, not out of the church.
Just ask yourself, why is this sodomy becoming so rampant in the church? Why are our people, who have or who have had the light, being cursed with a reprobate spirit? Why worry about those outside the vessel when we inside the vessel are corrupt and giving into sodomy, among other crimes of the flesh and spirit. Why for that matter, Mathew 23:15, "compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves".

Yes it has been restated again this weekend that the only legitimate marriage in Gods eyes is between a man and a woman, but, that by no means resolves the problem of why our very children, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc are turning to sodomy in the church in large numbers, which in turn causes some to commit suicide, which is even worse.

I say the cause is exactly what Apostle Paul describes in Roman's 1. We received the truth and we do not love it, and hold it in unrightesness. Hence we are being led about by "reprobate spirits".

Yes, I agree with a lot of what you had to say here. I thought Gary Stevenson's talk shed some light on this, people become "unsatisfied" with the truth and this is largely a result of direct temptation from the adversary, we say "all is well" and let down our guard and thus become easy pickings.

Stephen Owen nailed it right at the beginning of Saturday Morning session when he said:

* "They starved to death with their stomachs full."
* "They went through the motions of spirituality but were not converted."
* This is a day of spiritual malnutrition.

We have to teach the doctrine and principles of the gospel to our people. This is why I think we are making a ton of these changes. We are focusing on the families and youth and fortifying them against the false doctrines of the world. I've noticed changes in my family. They have been small and subtle, but I can say that our family has certainly been blessed and strengthened. I don't think I would have made some decisions if certain directions and ideas from the church leadership had not been there.

[cab]

It's not a double standard to believe that polygamy was sanctioned by God at times, and to also believe that homosexual marriage and sex will never be sanctioned by God at any time. That is just a statement of one person's belief system.

Another person may believe that it was a whoredom for the early saints to practice polygamy, and that it's not a whoredom to be sexually active in a same-sex marriage.

Different beliefs, yes. Double standard, no.

I agree with what you're saying Lizzy... I just think Mathias' comment represents one. In this thread he jumped to labeling questioners of our Church's practice of polygamy as apostates but has no problem saying that he thinks when Nelson and Oaks die the "new guard" are likely to embrace a the whoredom of homosexuality... His trying to snuff out my belief, which differs from his, represents a double standard.

I never specifically referred to you as an apostate. I was referring to apostate groups like the Snufferites who are currently the loudest advocates for the idea that Brigham Young and the other apostles committed whoredoms and led the rest of the Church to embrace whoredoms as well.

It's not a double standard to believe in the early teachings of the Church while lamenting the modern Church caving to the world.

Listen, you're absolutely right that it's not a double standard to believe that... But it kinda is when you get to vocalize your sincere fears that the church is caving to Babylon but then see it as your duty to "set them straight" when others have sincere fears that the church might have caved earlier than you happen to believe it currently is.

You said I don't want the truth, can't handle the truth, am peddling nonsense, and am probably blindly following some apostate group. None of these are true, and neither are you the dispenser of all truth on this or any issue. Neither is it your duty to set anyone straight...

I know I said that I now believe certain ideas are preposterous and represent mental gymnastics, but the context was that I have believed these exact same ideas for my whole life, and I can't accept them any longer... I wasn't trying to accuse you. Sorry if it came across that way.

Just maybe consider being a bit more open to others' sincere fears and concerns, and a little less accusatory, that's all. I bowing out, God bless on your walk with Christ. I'm sorry for bickering....

[cathyk]

I couldn't vote for any of the options you posted in your survey but if you had asked:

Who thinks this survey is pointless and stupid?..... I surely would have voted for that option!!!

You're welcome NOT to participate, of course. So you think it is an impossible hypothetical scenario? Kind of like: what would you do if you caught your spouse cheating on you? I know, it's hard to think about & painful to consider. So just avoid!

Ha! There's no comparison between the two. Spouses are human.

I couldn't answer the poll, either. There was no option that said, "That's not going to happen." Practices change, but principles do not. If the Church is led by God, that will not happen. Obviously, you are not of the same mind.

As for your "evidence", there is nothing there. It reminds me of a book titled, "Weakness Is Not Sin". We are not penalized for weakness, only for sin. If someone is an alcoholic, but never drinks alcohol, it is not counted to them as sin.

Homosexuality is increasing, and same sex feelings. It is something the Church has to deal with among some members and potential members. They aren't going to speak as hardly as in the past. They want them to come unto Christ, not be driven away by a lack of compassion for what they are dealing with.. But at the same time, they can't and won't accept the practice of homosexuality.

It could get difficult, though. There are many totalitarian-minded people (activists) who are going to keep pushing their agenda to try to get every organization (and church) to conform to it.