LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **July 1st, 2019, 3:25 pm**

Charlytos wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:17 pm
jsk wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 1:56 pm Boyd K. Packer gave a talk at BYU some years ago where he outlined the three greatest challenges the Church would face in coming years...one was the gay lobby.
And the other 2 were...?

Feminism and intellectualism.

From his obituary in the NY Times:
"In a speech in 1993, he warned that three groups — feminists, homosexuals and intellectuals — posed the greatest threat to the church. In 2010, he condemned same-sex attraction as unnatural and immoral, making him a prominent target of gay rights advocates in Utah and elsewhere."

The entire speech:

https://www.zionsbest.com/face.html

Posted: **July 1st, 2019, 3:27 pm**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:25 pm
Charlytos wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:17 pm
jsk wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 1:56 pm Boyd K. Packer gave a talk at BYU some years ago where he outlined the three greatest challenges the Church would face in coming years...one was the gay lobby.
And the other 2 were...?
Feminism and intellectualism.

Do you have a link? I don't doubt you. I just think you'll find it way faster than me.

Posted: **July 1st, 2019, 3:32 pm**

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:27 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:25 pm
Charlytos wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:17 pm
jsk wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 1:56 pm Boyd K. Packer gave a talk at BYU some years ago where he outlined the three greatest challenges the Church would face in coming years...one was the gay lobby.
And the other 2 were...?
Feminism and intellectualism.
Do you have a link? I don't doubt you. I just think you'll find it way faster than me.

I must have read your mind.......I linked it to my post, whilst you were requesting.

Posted: **July 1st, 2019, 3:39 pm**

Galatians 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 7:56 pm**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:25 pm
Charlytos wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:17 pm
jsk wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 1:56 pm Boyd K. Packer gave a talk at BYU some years ago where he outlined the three greatest challenges the Church would face in coming years...one was the gay lobby.
And the other 2 were...?
Feminism and intellectualism.

From his obituary in the NY Times:
"In a speech in 1993, he warned that three groups — feminists, homosexuals and intellectuals — posed the greatest threat to the church. In 2010, he condemned same-sex attraction as unnatural and immoral, making him a prominent target of gay rights advocates in Utah and elsewhere."

The entire speech:

https://www.zionsbest.com/face.html

Off-topic question from me. What's "intellectualism"?

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 8:07 pm**

Charlytos wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 7:56 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:25 pm
Charlytos wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:17 pm
jsk wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 1:56 pm Boyd K. Packer gave a talk at BYU some years ago where he outlined the three greatest challenges the Church would face in coming years...one was the gay lobby.
And the other 2 were...?
Feminism and intellectualism.

From his obituary in the NY Times:
"In a speech in 1993, he warned that three groups — feminists, homosexuals and intellectuals — posed the greatest threat to the church. In 2010, he condemned same-sex attraction as unnatural and immoral, making him a prominent target of gay rights advocates in Utah and elsewhere."

The entire speech:

https://www.zionsbest.com/face.html
Off-topic question from me. What's "intellectualism"?

---------------------------
in·tel·lec·tu·al·ism
/ˌin(t)əˈlek(t)SH(əw)əˌlizəm/
noun
the exercise of the intellect at the expense of the emotions.

the theory that knowledge is wholly or mainly derived from pure reason; rationalism.
------------------------------
In Church-speak this would mean believing only things that can be proved, and not things learned by the spirit, or from the heart. In other words, Faith is not proof, therefore not of real value.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 8:48 pm**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:25 pm
Charlytos wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:17 pm
jsk wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 1:56 pm Boyd K. Packer gave a talk at BYU some years ago where he outlined the three greatest challenges the Church would face in coming years...one was the gay lobby.
And the other 2 were...?
Feminism and intellectualism.

From his obituary in the NY Times:
"In a speech in 1993, he warned that three groups — feminists, homosexuals and intellectuals — posed the greatest threat to the church. In 2010, he condemned same-sex attraction as unnatural and immoral, making him a prominent target of gay rights advocates in Utah and elsewhere."

The entire speech:

https://www.zionsbest.com/face.html

I remember reading this talk and I think he was more right than he knew. However those three things are just two branches of a far more sinister ideology being forced on us all.

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 9:27 pm**

[email protected] wrote: ↑July 21st, 2019, 8:48 pm I remember reading this talk and I think he was more right than he knew. However those three things are just two branches of a far more sinister ideology being forced on us all.

What is the far more sinister ideology?

Posted: **July 21st, 2019, 9:55 pm**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑July 1st, 2019, 3:25 pm Feminism and intellectualism.

From his obituary in the NY Times:
"In a speech in 1993, he warned that three groups — feminists, homosexuals and intellectuals — posed the greatest threat to the church. In 2010, he condemned same-sex attraction as unnatural and immoral, making him a prominent target of gay rights advocates in Utah and elsewhere."

The entire speech:

https://www.zionsbest.com/face.html

Wow, great talk!

One thing that stuck out to me is the VALUE, yes, the VALUE in correlation! And:
"Simplification and reduction must come. Simplification and reduction will come! If we cannot do it on our own -- and we seem to be in that circumstance -- the future will see us doing, in anxious haste, that which we might have done with deliberate care had we followed the vision which has been given to us."

Wow, it's eery almost, how this is playing out today.

I'm having a hard time, being a "millennial", seeing how this quote from this lady is of concern:

"The Feminist Movement
The next quotation is from a woman who is hurting, and perhaps wonders if anyone but the feminists care about her problems:

"I'm upset that I was always advised to go back and try harder only to get abused more. I need some comfort, I need solace, need hope, need to know Heavenly Father sees all that I have endured. What hope do I have for a chance to live with Heavenly Father? If temple marriage is the key to the celestial [kingdom], where am I? Outside gnashing my teeth for eternity? Help me."
"

I don't understand how that concerns Elder Packer, but I chalk that up to being much younger and growing up in today's world, which is very much different than the one he grew up in. Oh, and he has so much more life experience than I, even when this talk was written!

I would welcome any ideas from the forum why this quote is supposed to be concerning, at least to a general authority in 1993.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 2:28 am**

Jesef wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 9:16 am
friendsofthe wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 9:12 am I couldn't vote for any of the options you posted in your survey but if you had asked:

Who thinks this survey is pointless and stupid?..... I surely would have voted for that option!!!
You're welcome NOT to participate, of course.

He isn't NOT participating, he's pointing out the ridiculous (possibly subversive?) nature of the question.

So you think it is an impossible hypothetical scenario? Kind of like: what would you do if you caught your spouse cheating on you? I know, it's hard to think about & painful to consider. So just avoid!

This isn't even a straw man argument, it's a straw file cabinet argument (meaning it's a nonsensical non-equation.) The question "What would you do if you caught your spouse cheating?" is certainly one we all hope and pray we never find ourselves in, but unless we're lying to ourselves it's one we have to know is possible. Human nature is corruptible, and even though we hope it never happens to us we know we are all imperfect.

God, on the other hand, IS perfect. He has already told us through His prophets the nature of man and woman, sexuality, and the importance of the two genders. We also know that while administrative changes can be done time to time as the needs and strengths of the people change, eternal principles are just that: ETERNAL. That means they apply for eternity. The Proclamation on the Family clears this subject up in its entirety:

…God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife....

Commandment: Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 2:38 am**

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 9:27 am Isaiah said, "Come now, let us reason together."

Isaiah knew when a reasonable conversation was going to be an option.

...Or do you simply believe the creator of this thread asks for the wrong reasons?

Bingo! That was my initial reaction to the question. I could be wrong, It has happened before (I believe it was about 48 years ago, so maybe I'm due.) I'm only an occasional poster, so I know little about the OP, but I've certainly seen no shortage of topics started simply to create friction and bad feelings between forum members. If I'm wrong, I'll learn about it as I read more, and I'll update as I see fit, but that was my initial impression.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 2:50 am**

KirkTownzen wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 9:37 amAccepting homosexuality is part of what I would call that new "temptation cannot be resisted" movement. What if I identify as an alcoholic? Is that just who I am, and now you must accept me without judgement? Where does it stop?

Make no mistake, the LDS Church does NOT accept homosexuality, and those people who try to say we accept it are either living in denial, being led astray, or they're trying to lead others astray. However, there's a HUGE difference between accepting homosexuality (which would be wrong) and accepting people who have SSA, temptations, desires, and even sinful acts, but we are all sinners, and the church tries to help ALL saints back to God, not just those who fit the "normal" mold.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 2:59 am**

KirkTownzen wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 9:50 amI've never heard anyone repent after saying that they "identify" as something sinful. Have you?

I "identify" that I really, really, really, really, REALLY want a 35 year old Dalmore or a 30 year old Oloroso-cask Glenmorangie single malt, but I'd be exceedingly repentant if I actually had one.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:05 am**

LukeAir2008 wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 12:04 pm They already have accepted homosexuality. They’re asking them to not have any sexual activity but they’ve accepted homosexuality and homosexuals.

You can't conflate the two. One is a person, one is an action. I accept the person. I reject the action. Not everyone has the same weaknesses, but because someone else's is different than mine doesn't make them better or worse than I am, just different.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:10 am**

Jesef wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 12:15 pmAs such, we suffer from many cult-like mind/thought & behavior control mechanisms, Groupthink, etc.

My initial impression that your poll and topic are designed to create schisms and foment discord are not being lessened.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:37 am**

Jesef wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 5:11 pmBut, this issue has many similarities to the Priesthood/Temple Ban being lifted from Blacks in 1978.

You could not be more wrong had you said something like the hildabeast was the best presidential candidate we've ever had.

Feel free to ignore.

Ignore? No thanks, I'd rather explain why you're wrong. You're a child of God, you're entitled to all the same blessings as everyone else is, and you're wrong.

The Priesthood only going to certain people already had two historical precedents to it, one from before Christ's time on Earth, one while He was on Earth. In ancient days, if you weren't of the tribe of Levi, you didn't get the Priesthood. Were there good, blessed sons of God in the tribes of Dan, Gad, Benjamin, and others? Certainly! However, if you weren't of Levi, you didn't get the Priesthood.

When Christ was on the Earth, He came to teach the Jews. It was not until after His Death and Resurrection that His Word was to be taken to all.

God allows Whom He will to hold office, receive blessings, but we're already told that an eternal characteristic of each of us is our gender, and we're also told that sex is ONLY to be used between MAN and WOMAN and then only when they are lawfully wed.

There's no wiggle room there.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:39 am**

Jesef wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 5:11 pmI think it's extremely interesting that now we're up to 25% of those who voted would stay in the Church despite such a huge, socially pressured flip-flop/reversal of doctrine, believing that the Church is True no matter what, basically.

To borrow words from Gandhi, if you are but a minority of one, the truth is the truth.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:46 am**

Jesef wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 11:45 amLifting the Priesthood/Temple Race Ban on Blacks in 1978 was also a major change in doctrine & practice in the direction of Love & acceptance & equality & respect for people as they are.

Thank you for the explanation that because the United States of America once fought a war to end slavery, that means that President Clinton was a pious man who loved all Americans equally.

Yes, it makes just as much sense.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:49 am**

Elizabeth wrote: ↑February 15th, 2019, 2:06 pm There is nothing to respect about homosexuality nor those who indulge in it... it is debase, disgusting, and against Eternal Law.

There is nothing to respect about premarital sex nor those who indulge in it. It is debase, disgusting, and against Eternal Law.

(Jesef, THAT'S how to do an apples to apples comparison.)

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 3:57 am**

SmallFarm wrote: ↑February 18th, 2019, 11:10 amApparently I am labelled as TBM on this website but to me that's like how liberals accuse me of being conservative and vice versa.

If we define being "TBM" as trying your best to be Christlike, then yes, I have little difficulty in proclaiming you TBM. However, in its derogatory sense, no, you could not be called TBM.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 4:29 am**

Fiannan wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 11:41 am Are your kids listening to this woman's music?

One of the nieces in my wife's family made a post about what a wonderful, loving, godlike woman Lady Gaga was on her social media page. After I picked up the pieces of my brain matter which had flown explosively across the room, I politely pointed out that she could be considered talented but all of the qualities of "goodness" she portrayed were, in fact, subtle designs to entice young people into accepting sin as being not only normal, but preferable. It resulted in half of that side of the family removing me from their social circles. Of course, it wasn't long until my family blow up in 2012 had me walk entirely away from my wife's family for the most part, but when I'm correct I won't bend to go along regardless of who stands against me.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 4:40 am**

mike_rumble wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 1:41 pmI know most of us won't believe it, but those little grandchildren we now hold in our arms, will likely be calling us bigots and worse before the next decade is over.

Bloody well good for them. Outside of professional circles, the only people whose opinions of me have mattered most of my life have been my wife and my parents. I haven't cared what people thought of me when I was a brash, cocky teenager, and I care less now that I have grey in much of my hair.

To keep their love, we will have to adapt to their way of morality and ethics. Most of us, sadly will do just that.

Choose you this day whom ye will serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And it is MY house.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 4:51 am**

Elizabeth wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2019, 11:34 am It is an eternal mystery to me how Lucifer could have fallen so far from his exalted station and why.

A strong and faithful member of the church who loses their testimony and turns away from the church are much more likely to be rabidly anti than someone who's never been LDS. The higher you are, the harder you hit when you fall. The Nephites who fell away were more wicked than the Lamanites.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 8:07 am**

Who remembers--or better yet, can find--when Elder Bednar mentioned something to the effect that the brethren had been learning more about homosexuality and it would be shared at a future time?

Posted: **July 22nd, 2019, 8:35 am**

ParticleMan wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2019, 8:07 am Who remembers--or better yet, can find--when Elder Bednar mentioned something to the effect that the brethren had been learning more about homosexuality and it would be shared at a future time?

I don't remember any Apostle saying anything even remotely like that. There was the MormonLeaks video where they were discussing the "gay problem" and also this video of Bednar speaking to some members in South America.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4_wTGv8Ao

LDS Freedom Forum

POLL: What would you do if the Church accepts homosexuality?

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