LDS Freedom Forum

Shalom and thank you to all who have welcomed me so warmly.

I was invited to start a thread regarding the Book of Mormon and how it may be seen through a Hebraic lens.

This is, indeed, a daunting task! I have a rudimentary knowledge of the Book of Knowledge, so it may take some time to wrap my mind around all this.

In the meanwhile, I thought I’d start this thread to answer any questions you may have about Hebrew, Judaism, and everything relating to the Book of Mormon from my limited knowledge of what it contains.

I am rabbi in Conservative Judaism, by way of background.

I do look forward to edifying dialogue.

I'd like to know what you think the Book of Mormon actually/really is? Do you think it is actually Hebraic in origin (translation as claimed) or just coincidentally contains some elements? And why (whatever your position happens to be)?

Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:34 am I'd like to know what you think the Book of Mormon actually/really is? Do you think it is actually Hebraic in origin (translation as claimed) or just coincidentally contains some elements? And why (whatever your position happens to be)?

I really appreciate your honest question. For the sake of veracity, I must say that my knowledge of the Book of Mormon is limited to things I’ve read regarding its origins. Having said that, I will study it further so that I may give you a well-rounded response.

Do you have any questions about specifics that you have found within its pages that strike you as particularly Hebraic?

My understanding (and please correct me if I am mistaken in anything I say...I do not wish to cause offense) is that it was written (translated?) by Joseph Smith? Was he a speaker of Hebrew?

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:39 am

Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:34 am I'd like to know what you think the Book of Mormon actually/really is? Do you think it is actually Hebraic in origin (translation as claimed) or just coincidentally contains some elements? And why (whatever your position happens to be)?

I really appreciate your honest question. For the sake of veracity, I must say that my knowledge of the Book of Mormon is limited to things I’ve read regarding its origins. Having said that, I will study it further so that I may give you a well-rounded response.

Do you have any questions about specifics that you have found within its pages that strike you as particularly Hebraic?

My understanding (and please correct me if I am mistaken in anything I say...I do not wish to cause offense) is that it was written (translated?) by Joseph Smith? Was he a speaker of Hebrew?

It was translated by Joseph Smith as a young man. At the time he had very little formal education. In his later life he attempted to learn some Hebrew but would not be considered fluent.

justme wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:40 am

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:39 am

Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:34 am I'd like to know what you think the Book of Mormon actually/really is? Do you think it is actually Hebraic in origin (translation as claimed) or just coincidentally contains some elements? And why (whatever your position happens to be)?

I really appreciate your honest question. For the sake of veracity, I must say that my knowledge of the Book of Mormon is limited to things I’ve read regarding its origins. Having said that, I will study it further so that I may give you a well-rounded response.

Do you have any questions about specifics that you have found within its pages that strike you as particularly Hebraic?

My understanding (and please correct me if I am mistaken in anything I say...I do not wish to cause offense) is that it was written (translated?) by Joseph Smith? Was he a speaker of Hebrew?

It was translated by Joseph Smith as a young man. At the time he had very little formal education. In his later life he attempted to learn some Hebrew but would not be considered fluent.

Thank you for clarifying that.

On a side note...if I do not respond right away, I may be in a meeting or visiting a member of the congregation today who is having surgery. I will check several times a day so as not to ignore anyone.

Everyone has been very amiable here! I am well-pleased to know you.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:39 am

Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:34 am I'd like to know what you think the Book of Mormon actually/really is? Do you think it is actually Hebraic in origin (translation as claimed) or just coincidentally contains some elements? And why (whatever your position happens to be)?

I really appreciate your honest question. For the sake of veracity, I must say that my knowledge of the Book of Mormon is limited to things I’ve read regarding its origins. Having said that, I will study it further so that I may give you a well-rounded response.

Do you have any questions about specifics that you have found within its pages that strike you as particularly Hebraic?

My understanding (and please correct me if I am mistaken in anything I say...I do not wish to cause offense) is that it was written (translated?) by Joseph Smith? Was he a speaker of Hebrew?

He claimed he was led by an angel & dug up the record, engraved on golden plates, near his home in New York in 1820's - he also claimed they were buried with a pair of crystal spectacles he termed Urim & Thummim. He also had a "seer" stone. He claimed the language on the plates was Hebrew but written in Reformed Egyptian characters, which was some type of shorthand. He claimed he translated a portion of the engravings using sometimes the Urim & Thummim & sometimes the seer stone from the ancient language in to English. It was published in 1830 as The Book of Mormon. It claims to be written by ancient Israelitish prophets who migrated to the Americas, one group during the time of Jeremiah at around 600 BC led by a prophet named Lehi & his cousin Ishmael with their sons & daughters (Laman, Lemuel, Nephi, & Sam). The other far earlier, after the tower of Babel, called Jaredites. And another small group apparently led by a surviving son of Zedekiah named Mulek, or the Mulekites. Alma 36 is claimed to be probably the most Hebraic chapter in the book due to it's chiasmus:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/charts/132-chiasmus-alma-36

Your thoughts?

Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:52 am

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:39 am

Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:34 am I'd like to know what you think the Book of Mormon actually/really is? Do you think it is actually Hebraic in origin (translation as claimed) or just coincidentally contains some elements? And why (whatever your position happens to be)?

I really appreciate your honest question. For the sake of veracity, I must say that my knowledge of the Book of Mormon is limited to things I’ve read regarding its origins. Having said that, I will study it further so that I may give you a well-rounded response.

Do you have any questions about specifics that you have found within its pages that strike you as particularly Hebraic?

My understanding (and please correct me if I am mistaken in anything I say...I do not wish to cause offense) is that it was written (translated?) by Joseph Smith? Was he a speaker of Hebrew?

He claimed he was led by an angel & dug up the record, engraved on golden plates, near his home in New York in 1820's - he also claimed they were buried with a pair of crystal spectacles he termed Urim & Thummim. He also had a "seer" stone. He claimed the language on the plates was Hebrew but written in Reformed Egyptian characters, which was some type of shorthand. He claimed he translated a portion of the engravings using sometimes the Urim & Thummim & sometimes the seer stone from the ancient language in to English. It was published in 1830 as The Book of Mormon. It claims to be written by ancient Israelitish prophets who migrated to the Americas, one group during the time of Jeremiah at around 600 BC led by a prophet named Lehi & his cousin Ishmael with their sons & daughters (Laman, Lemuel, Nephi, & Sam). The other far earlier, after the tower of Babel, called Jaredites. And another small group apparently led by a surviving son of Zedekiah named Mulek, or the Mulekites. Alma 36 is claimed to be probably the most Hebraic chapter in the book due to it's chiasmus:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/charts/132-chiasmus-alma-36

Your thoughts?

That is a lot to wrap my head around! Chiastic structure is very important, especially in Vayikra. Allow me to think about this and get back to you after my hospital visit. There is much there that sounds familiar as well as much that does not.

This should be exciting.

As I recall, Daniel Peterson talks about some of the ancient parallels in this talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzSOdBmrIhY

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:58 am That is a lot to wrap my head around! Chiastic structure is very important, especially in Vayikra. Allow me to think about this and get back to you after my hospital visit. There is much there that sounds familiar as well as much that does not.

This should be exciting.

In Alma 13, a man named Alma who is a priest teaches "I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people. And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption." Alma 13:1-2

These were ordinations that took place under the law of Moses, not the kind of ordinations in modern LDS practice where hands are placed upon the head of the individual and a prayer is offered. The ordination of priests was more involved and we can read about the ordination of Aaron and his sons. Alma claims here though that the way they were ordained was done in a manner that the people may look forward to God's Son.

This parallels the Christian idea that the passover experience that Jesus participates in mirrors the high priest's role in the temple.

My question, if you would be willing to humor me even as a thought experiment, is what aspects of the ordination of Hebrew priests could potentially be identified as potentially "looking forward" to Jesus and the Christian context of redemption?

5tev3 wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 1:48 pm

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:58 am That is a lot to wrap my head around! Chiastic structure is very important, especially in Vayikra. Allow me to think about this and get back to you after my hospital visit. There is much there that sounds familiar as well as much that does not.

This should be exciting.

In Alma 13, a man named Alma who is a priest teaches "I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people. And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption." Alma 13:1-2

These were ordinations that took place under the law of Moses, not the kind of ordinations in modern LDS practice where hands are placed upon the head of the individual and a prayer is offered. The ordination of priests was more involved and we can read about the ordination of Aaron and his sons. Alma claims here though that the way they were ordained was done in a manner that the people may look forward to God's Son.

This parallels the Christian idea that the passover experience that Jesus participates in mirrors the high priest's role in the temple.

My question, if you would be willing to humor me even as a thought experiment, is what aspects of the ordination of Hebrew priests could potentially be identified as potentially "looking forward" to Jesus and the Christian context of redemption?

Shalom to you. I am not certain that I fully understand what you mean by ordination of priests, so if you would, let me know so I make sure to answer you to the best of my ability.

I can say this...

The first kohen (or priest) was Aharon (Aaron) the brother of Moshe, of the tribe of Levi. Aharon and his sons were designated as the first priests and Aharon served as the first High Priest. All of his (Aharon) male descendants were chosen by G-d to be priests forever as an eternal covenant. Exodus 40:15..."And it shall be for them an appointment as priests forever, for all generations."

Sorry, I am not at all certain I have adequately answered your question, but I am happy to do my best if you clarify a bit. Thank you kindly for these excellent questions! I am learning a lot about how you think, and I appreciate that very much.

It just occurred to me that I may not have started this thread in the correct place. My apologies if that is the case. Sometimes my heart gets ahead of my head!

No worries, Rebbe. I think many of us, myself especially, look forward to your perspective in this discussion, including this topic-at your leisure and convenience, of course.

marc wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 4:54 pm No worries, Rebbe. I think many of us, myself especially, look forward to your perspective in this discussion, including this topic-at your leisure and convenience, of course.

Thank you. I have a question for you, if I may? I noticed under your username it says you are "A disciple of Jesus Christ." What does being a disciple mean to you (or LDS people in general)?

I started a separate thread about questions you may have for me about Judaism in general or how it relates to LDS theology so as to keep this thread about the Book of Mormon specifically.

Thank you, everyone.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 4:59 pm

marc wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 4:54 pm No worries, Rebbe. I think many of us, myself especially, look forward to your perspective in this discussion, including this topic-at your leisure and convenience, of course.

Thank you. I have a question for you, if I may? I noticed under your username it says you are "A disciple of Jesus Christ." What does being a disciple mean to you (or LDS people in general)?

Well, that's the first time anyone has asked me that. I'm kind of an oddball. Although I am a baptized member of the LDS church, I don't really consider myself a traditional Mormon (anymore). There are many traditions and policies, which aren't necessarily doctrinal. I focus my discipline in the teachings of Jesus Christ, the focus being on the Law of the Gospel, or in other words, being diligent in keeping His commandments, including and especially His sayings found in His "Sermon on the Mount." That's the short answer anyway.

marc wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:31 pm

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 4:59 pm

marc wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 4:54 pm No worries, Rebbe. I think many of us, myself especially, look forward to your perspective in this discussion, including this topic-at your leisure and convenience, of course.

Thank you. I have a question for you, if I may? I noticed under your username it says you are "A disciple of Jesus Christ." What does being a disciple mean to you (or LDS people in general)?

Well, that's the first time anyone has asked me that. I'm kind of an oddball. Although I am a baptized member of the LDS church, I don't really consider myself a traditional Mormon (anymore). There are many traditions and policies, which aren't necessarily doctrinal. I focus my discipline in the teachings of Jesus Christ, the focus being on the Law of the Gospel, or in other words, being diligent in keeping His commandments, including and especially His sayings found in His "Sermon on the Mount." That's the short answer anyway.

The "Law of the Gospel." That is a fascinating thing! What does that mean to you?

Observing Torah is of utmost importance to us, so this is why I ask.

Now here I go again asking you instead of letting you ask me. Oy vey ist mir!

Rebbe, I know that you are quite busy, and furthermore, are in the process of becoming overloaded with questions, thoughts, ideas, concepts and a multiplicity of different persons seeking your attention. However, I am as yet curious to see what you might think of this work of (translation or comparison):

http://bmslr.org/translation-of-the-caractors-document/

If you do read through the information and work contained in this link, it will be quite the avalanche of information, not only of the Hebrew, but the close ties with Egyptian, Mayan - or other central-American, and Nephite languages, plus the theology aspects all rolled together.

So my specific question to you is in the Book of Mormon narrative, I notice numerous references to numbers, years, months, days, and other times. How important is this chronology, and numerology in Judaism? To me the importance of the inclusion of all the dates and correlating time periods seems to get lost and I don't have the perspective of why they should be there, or what importance they would carry. Any thoughts you might have are appreciated.

Again, I don't want to overload you, but I also don't want to miss out on a great opportunity to understand.
Thank You in advance.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:39 pm
The "Law of the Gospel." That is a fascinating thing! What does that mean to you?

Observing Torah is of utmost importance to us, so this is why I ask.

Now here I go again asking you instead of letting you ask me. Oy vey ist mir!

It is my understanding that there are those in the Jewish community who call themselves Karaites/Qaraites. They believe that the commandments given to Moses in the Torah by the Lord were given without additional oral laws/traditions. They do not accept as binding the written collections of the oral traditions handed down from generation to generation. Likewise, I don't necessarily accept as binding church policies and traditions. They have their place and not without some merit, but to me are not equal to the doctrines and commandments of the Lord. Therefore, I do not, for example, consider a suit and necktie a "priesthood uniform" or consider partaking of the sacrament with my right hand doctrinal or binding. Such are simply traditions created by somebody in the church hierarchy. Consider the following found in the Gospel of Matthew:

Matthew 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, which points to the atoning sacrifice, which He would offer of Himself a sacrifice for sin. But rather than strictly administering a law of justice, He also offers mercy to those who believe on His name. And those who believe in Him, likewise extend mercy to others, imparting of their substance to the beggars, etc. for we are all beggars--fallen and unable to redeem and save ourselves. It is through the merits of His sacrifice that grace is extended to they who repent (teshuvah) of their sins and believe that He can and does and will ransom them.

marc wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 6:04 pm

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:39 pm
The "Law of the Gospel." That is a fascinating thing! What does that mean to you?

Observing Torah is of utmost importance to us, so this is why I ask.

Now here I go again asking you instead of letting you ask me. Oy vey ist mir!

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, which points to the atoning sacrifice, which He would offer of Himself a sacrifice for sin. But rather than strictly administering a law of justice, He also offers mercy to those who believe on His name. And those who believe in Him, likewise extend mercy to others, imparting of their substance to the beggars, etc. for we are all beggars--fallen and unable to redeem and save ourselves. It is through the merits of His sacrifice that grace is extended to they who repent (teshuvah) of their sins and believe that He can and does and will ransom them.

May I ask...when you say "Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses," what does this mean to you exactly in practical terms?

Teancum wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:59 pm So my specific question to you is in the Book of Mormon narrative, I notice numerous references to numbers, years, months, days, and other times. How important is this chronology, and numerology in Judaism? To me the importance of the inclusion of all the dates and correlating time periods seems to get lost and I don't have the perspective of why they should be there, or what importance they would carry. Any thoughts you might have are appreciated.

There are aspects of numerology that are quite important to Judaism...depending on who you ask. (Sorry, I say that a lot!)

A type of numerology specifically called Gematria is central to some interpretations of Torah...mainly kabbalistic. There is some mention of the importance of Gematria in the Talmud as well as the Midrash, but it isn't what I would call central to rabbinic literature. Gematria is basically the use of numbers to correspond to Hebrew letters. You give the letters a numerical value and interpret things accordingly. Occasionally the rabbis would make use of Gematria to help support their biblical exegesis.

It becomes a way to more deeply understand the Divine.

It also corresponds to the four levels of understanding the word of G-d. You may already be familiar with these levels...

It is nice to make your acquaintance. Thank you for the questions.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:46 pmMay I ask...when you say "Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses," what does this mean to you exactly in practical terms?

I have to get ready for work, but the short answer, in practical terms is that the mortal Messiah kept the law perfectly (He did not do away with the law, but rather accomplished it--He filled it fully). All its penalties against God's sinful people were poured out on Him. Therefore, the Law of Moses is no longer the path to righteousness, but now Jesus Christ is that path. The ultimate purpose of the Law pointing to Him is for us to look to Him for mercy and grace and forgiveness rather than justice and penalties and punishment. In other words, I don't look to law keeping for righteousness. I look to Him, even the resurrected Messiah, Jesus Christ, for He is the law and the life.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

As you dive into the Book of Mormon, you will read of a small branch of Torah keeping Israelites learn this and while keeping the Torah, they begin to talk of Christ and preach of Christ continually. It will become manifestly clear how and why these Torah keeping people continually prophesied of Jesus the Christ and looked forward to Him coming in the flesh.

marc wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 4:38 am

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:46 pmMay I ask...when you say "Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses," what does this mean to you exactly in practical terms?

...in practical terms is that the mortal Messiah kept the law perfectly (He did not do away with the law, but rather accomplished it--He filled it fully). All its penalties against God's sinful people were poured out on Him. Therefore, the Law of Moses is no longer the path to righteousness, but now Jesus Christ is that path.

May I ask...how does this translate into practical terms? More specifically, what do you see this doing to both justification as well as sanctification?

How do you walk in holiness?

Do you believe that any of the Law of Moshe is still applicable? And what of the other covenants spoken of in Torah...the Abrahamic Covenant, the Noahide Laws, etc? Thank you again and may He who made the heavens and the earth grant you a splendid day of work.

I bought a Book of Mormon in Hebrew a long time ago, thinking I might need to give it to someone one day. Do you want it? The binding broke for some reason but it is sitting on my shelf not being read:). PM me if you would like it!

True wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 9:13 am I bought a Book of Mormon in Hebrew a long time ago, thinking I might need to give it to someone one day. Do you want it? The binding broke for some reason but it is sitting on my shelf not being read:). PM me if you would like it!

I shall PM you, thank you. Do you read Hebrew, btw?