The Book of Mormon Through the Eyes of a Rabbi

[The Rebbe]

Lehi had the training, or knowledge of the writing system of the Egyptians, as well as the Hebrew writing as well as an understanding of the Jews at Jerusalem.

This part makes me wonder...why is it said among your people that Lehi had a knowledge of Egyptian (at least the written form)? It was not common at that time for Jews to have this knowledge, so I am curious if it is explained.

Long story short, it depends on who you ask

This sounds very familiar for some reason.

I guess it depends upon if you consider their "Jewishness" to be because of how well they kept the laws and commandments of God or whether their "Jewishness" was based upon "traditions" or whether it is based solely upon lineage or upon whether or not others recognized and sanctioned their "Jewishness".

I just posted on this very thing. Hopefully it makes sense to someone.

From my own understanding, If I were a merchant and had to buy and sell in a different country, I would want to know if I was receiving a good price for my goods and if I was getting cheated or took to the cleaners. I would want to know what was wanted and what things were most valued in the different cultures so that I could make a "perfect trade" at both ends. So I would immerse myself in both cultures and be very familiar with what goes on. To that end, if a merchant goes to buy in Egypt, doesn't it make sense that he would want to know if the receipt he received totaled correctly? How could he be sure unless he could read and understand the languages used?

That makes sense. Perhaps I am just unfamiliar with trade that occurred between those nations at that time.

[oneClimbs]

This part makes me wonder...why is it said among your people that Lehi had a knowledge of Egyptian (at least the written form)? It was not common at that time for Jews to have this knowledge, so I am curious if it is explained.

The second verse in the Book of Mormon says, "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians."

Then, later on we read, "For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time." Mosiah 1:4.

The plates he is speaking of were the brass plates they acquired from Laban back in Jerusalem which contained the books of Moses, Isaiah, some of Jeremiah and many other writings. Apparently, these were written using Egyptian engravings for some reason. We do not know the history of these brass plates, who created them or where they came from other than Laban had them in his treasury. They were, perhaps, a one-of-a-kind artifact like the Antikythera mechanism or the Codex Gigas; things like that have always existed.

We don't know that Lehi was a merchant, it's possible, but unless I am mistaken it isn't explicitly mentioned anywhere. We do know he had wealth and at some point in his life was taught the Egyptian language.

The reason I think the plates were written in Heiratic was that was the priestly style of writing that would have been used at Lehi's time and if you were going to transcribe scripture you would probably use the priestly style of writing as opposed to Hieroglyphics which were painted or engraved or Demotic which was used in common, day-to-day dealings.

If that is true then I wonder what kind of Egyptian Lehi was taught and why. If he was taught the priestly script then could that shed light on what he did for a living or what he was involved in? I suppose we'd have to know more about what that time was like.

I have to say though that suggesting that a Jew in 600BC Jerusalem secured brass plates with the Hebrew scriptures on them written in Egyptian and could read them because he knew Egyptian, I mean, those are very specific and unique ideas that I don't think a farm boy would invent to try and convince people of that his supposed translation was real. Personally, I would expect someone to invent something more believable and create characters that would appear to fit in the setting people of his day would be familiar with. That said, Lehi appears to be someone that we would not expect, but then again, how much do we know about the diverse range of individuals that populated the Arabian Penninsula in 600BC?

Also, keep in mind that Lehi left Jerusalem only around 21 years after Josiah's reforms. It does seem that there were some major changes around that time and Lehi was kind of in-between the two eras.

[The Rebbe]

This part makes me wonder...why is it said among your people that Lehi had a knowledge of Egyptian (at least the written form)? It was not common at that time for Jews to have this knowledge, so I am curious if it is explained.

The second verse in the Book of Mormon says, "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians."

Then, later on we read, "For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time." Mosiah 1:4.

The plates he is speaking of were the brass plates they acquired from Laban back in Jerusalem which contained the books of Moses, Isaiah, some of Jeremiah and many other writings. Apparently, these were written using Egyptian engravings for some reason. We do not know the history of these brass plates, who created them or where they came from other than Laban had them in his treasury. They were, perhaps, a one-of-a-kind artifact like the Antikythera mechanism or the Codex Gigas; things like that have always existed.

We don't know that Lehi was a merchant, it's possible, but unless I am mistaken it isn't explicitly mentioned anywhere. We do know he had wealth and at some point in his life was taught the Egyptian language.

The reason I think the plates were written in Heiratic was that was the priestly style of writing that would have been used at Lehi's time and if you were going to transcribe scripture you would probably use the priestly style of writing as opposed to Hieroglyphics which were painted or engraved or Demotic which was used in common, day-to-day dealings.

If that is true then I wonder what kind of Egyptian Lehi was taught and why. If he was taught the priestly script then could that shed light on what he did for a living or what he was involved in? I suppose we'd have to know more about what that time was like.

I have to say though that suggesting that a Jew in 600BC Jerusalem secured brass plates with the Hebrew scriptures on them written in Egyptian and could read them because he knew Egyptian, I mean, those are very specific and unique ideas that I don't think a farm boy would invent to try and convince people of that his supposed translation was real. Personally, I would expect someone to invent something more believable and create characters that would appear to fit in the setting people of his day would be familiar with. That said, Lehi appears to be someone that we would not expect, but then again, how much do we know about the diverse range of individuals that populated the Arabian Penninsula in 600BC?

Also, keep in mind that Lehi left Jerusalem only around 21 years after Josiah's reforms. It does seem that there were some major changes around that time and Lehi was kind of in-between the two eras.

Curiouser and curiouser. Thank you for that, I am much appreciative. At the time of Jesus, many Jews would have spoken Aramaic, primarily. It was the common vernacular of the day to day. The "Hey, Ma, I'm heading to the market, can I pick you up anything?" language. They would also have spoken Hebrew as it was the sacred language of the Temple and the synagogues, that by which G-d's word was understood. Many would have spoken Greek as it was the language of commerce.

[Teancum]

We don't know that Lehi was a merchant, it's possible, but unless I am mistaken it isn't explicitly mentioned anywhere. We do know he had wealth and at some point in his life was taught the Egyptian language.

Oh, sorry, I remember an authority stating that he was and that his tents, and caravan supplies needed for the trek through the wilderness came because he already had them from his merchant business. Of course I cannot remember the source of the comments nor the context.

Well, we can see how easily things can get distorted right?

[oneClimbs]

We don't know that Lehi was a merchant, it's possible, but unless I am mistaken it isn't explicitly mentioned anywhere. We do know he had wealth and at some point in his life was taught the Egyptian language.

Oh, sorry, I remember an authority stating that he was and that his tents, and caravan supplies needed for the trek through the wilderness came because he already had them from his merchant business. Of course I cannot remember the source of the comments nor the context.

Well, I hear that claim quite often from people and I'm also not aware of the source but maybe there is one out there somewhere. It's just worth noting that the text itself doesn't appear to directly reveal Lehi's profession or trade.

[The Rebbe]

We don't know that Lehi was a merchant, it's possible, but unless I am mistaken it isn't explicitly mentioned anywhere. We do know he had wealth and at some point in his life was taught the Egyptian language.

Oh, sorry, I remember an authority stating that he was and that his tents, and caravan supplies needed for the trek through the wilderness came because he already had them from his merchant business. Of course I cannot remember the source of the comments nor the context.

Well, I hear that claim quite often from people and I'm also not aware of the source but maybe there is one out there somewhere. It's just worth noting that the text itself doesn't appear to directly reveal Lehi's profession or trade.

Perhaps he was a rabbi.

[oneClimbs]

Perhaps he was a rabbi.

It's possible. Here's where you could be useful with that theory; you might want to pay attention to how he teaches and describes his visions (1 Nephi chapters 1-8 in particular). Does he behave as a rabbi or more like a regular person would? A rabbi would no doubt have a deep understanding of the scriptures and if they had a vision, they might have a unique way of sharing those kinds of experiences.

[The Rebbe]

Perhaps he was a rabbi.

It's possible. Here's where you could be useful with that theory; you might want to pay attention to how he teaches and describes his visions (1 Nephi chapters 1-8 in particular). Does he behave as a rabbi or more like a regular person would? A rabbi would no doubt have a deep understanding of the scriptures and if they had a vision, they might have a unique way of sharing those kinds of experiences.

This made me think of something that I think you may find interesting. It was a topic on its own right, so I started a thread called "How to Become a Rabbi in Jesus' Day." Thanks for your encouragement and direction as I read.

[larsenb]

We don't know that Lehi was a merchant, it's possible, but unless I am mistaken it isn't explicitly mentioned anywhere. We do know he had wealth and at some point in his life was taught the Egyptian language.

Oh, sorry, I remember an authority stating that he was and that his tents, and caravan supplies needed for the trek through the wilderness came because he already had them from his merchant business. Of course I cannot remember the source of the comments nor the context.

Well, I hear that claim quite often from people and I'm also not aware of the source but maybe there is one out there somewhere. It's just worth noting that the text itself doesn't appear to directly reveal Lehi's profession or trade.

It was a speculation first put forward by Dr. Hugh Nibley, as I recall. An inference he came to based on Lehi's wealth, his ability to quickly mount an expedition, etc. I could find the reference w/some digging.

[larsenb]

If I may ask...at which point, do you believe, did Lehi (and those who came after) decided to stop being Jewish? Was there an event that made them stop?

A person's jewishness, today, is often determined by the mother. At least in Israel. This was not the case in Biblical times. So, thus, I am wondering when the change happened in the Book of Mormon.

There own idea of themselves was that they were primarily "the seed of Joseph". Zoram, a servant of Laban, who was pressed into joining the Lehite group, may well have been 'Jewish' , as would be the Mulekites . . . at least some of them.

But whether of the Tribe of Manasseh (Joseph) or not, they were still following the Law of Moses, by their numerous admissions throughout the Book of Mormon.

Here are some references from the Book of Mormon about their Josephite descent:

Ether 13:6-8,10 : 6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.

Alma 46:23-24,27 : 23 Moroni said unto them: Behold, we are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; yea, we are a remnant of the seed of Joseph, whose coat was rent by his brethren into many pieces; yea, and now behold, let us remember to keep the commandments of God, or our garments shall be rent by our brethren, and we be cast into prison, or be sold, or be slain.

1 Nephi 5:14,16 14 And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob, who was sold into Egypt, and who was preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he might preserve his father, Jacob, and all his household from perishing with famine.

3 Nephi 5:21,23 21 Surely he hath blessed the house of Jacob, and hath been merciful unto the seed of Joseph.

2 Nephi 4:1,3 1 And now, I, Nephi, speak concerning the prophecies of which my father hath spoken, concerning Joseph, who was carried into Egypt.

Alma 10:3 3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.

Jacob 2:25 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

3 Nephi 15:12 12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.

3 Nephi 10:17 17 Behold, our father Jacob also testified concerning a remnant of the seed of Joseph. And behold, are not we a remnant of the seed of Joseph? And these things which testify of us, are they not written upon the plates of brass which our father Lehi brought out of Jerusalem?

1 Nephi 6:2 2 For it sufficeth me to say that we are descendants of Joseph.

2 Nephi 25:21 21 Wherefore, for this cause hath the Lord God promised unto me that these things which I write shall be kept and preserved, and handed down unto my seed, from generation to generation, that the promise may be fulfilled unto Joseph, that his seed should never perish as long as the earth should stand.

There is a prophecy about the 'seed' of Joseph/Manasseh proclaiming that his seed would escape over the wall, like a vine . . . . i.e., be relocated outside of Israel proper. I would have to dig to find it. In the Torah, or ancillary writings, I'm not sure.

And their are other passages from the book indicating they still identified w/the Jews, as well.

[oneClimbs]

It was a speculation first put forward by Dr. Hugh Nibley, as I recall. An inference he came to based on Lehi's wealth, his ability to quickly mount an expedition, etc. I could find the reference w/some digging.

You could be right about that. Dr. Nibley sounds like someone that could have put forward that idea. It's not a bad theory but I'd like to hear some more solid points and perhaps some alternate ideas as to what kinds of people would have had access to wealth and knowledge of the Egyptian language. Maybe he was involved in the government somehow, he did know Laban and was even related to him and Laban hung out with the Elders of the people so maybe they were involved in that together.

Being in the government may have required diplomatic skills and knowledge of neighboring civilizations and perhaps languages. Or as The Rebbe suggested, maybe he was a rabbi; it would be interesting to know more about the professions of that era and where Lehi could have fit.

[larsenb]

Here are some passages from the Book of Mormon, where the 'Lord' talks about the Jews and the role they have played in preserving the word of God:

2 Nephi 24: 3-6:

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

This Chapter 29 has much more to say on this topic, as well.

[larsenb]

It was a speculation first put forward by Dr. Hugh Nibley, as I recall. An inference he came to based on Lehi's wealth, his ability to quickly mount an expedition, etc. I could find the reference w/some digging.

You could be right about that. Dr. Nibley sounds like someone that could have put forward that idea. It's not a bad theory but I'd like to hear some more solid points and perhaps some alternate ideas as to what kinds of people would have had access to wealth and knowledge of the Egyptian language. Maybe he was involved in the government somehow, he did know Laban and was even related to him and Laban hung out with the Elders of the people so maybe they were involved in that together.

Being in the government may have required diplomatic skills and knowledge of neighboring civilizations and perhaps languages. Or as The Rebbe suggested, maybe he was a rabbi; it would be interesting to know more about the professions of that era and where Lehi could have fit.

This was a thesis coming from Nibley. Again, w/time, I could find the exact reference. Nibley also expounds a lot on Laban, of whom, the evidence indicates he was at the very least an important military leader in Jerusalem. Nibley brings in the Lachish Letters to support his ideas about Laban, and which paint the same picture about the atmosphere of Jerusalem and surrounds as the Book of Mormon.

Nibley also speculates that Lehi moved in the same circles as Jeremiah and undoubtedly knew him, probably based on these passages from the Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 7:14 14 For behold, the Spirit of the Lord ceaseth soon to strive with them; for behold, they have rejected the prophets, and Jeremiah have they cast into prison. And they have sought to take away the life of my father, insomuch that they have driven him out of the land.

and

1 Nephi 5:13 13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.

[marc]

I couldn't sleep and I gotta be at work soon, but first some thoughts. Rebbe, another thing that may be noteworthy, considering the Book of Mormon scriptures provided thus far supporting Lehi's lineage being through Joseph. We know that Joseph was sold into Egypt. This surely played a role in Joseph's posterity becoming immersed in Egyptian culture, language, etc, particularly for the affluent Josephites. Lehi discovers after recovering from the brass plates that Laban was also a descendant of Joseph and why it fell to Laban to be the record keeper. Consider the following passage:

1 Kings 19:13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

It's ironic to me that the Jews didn't believe many of the prophets and killed them, yet preserved their words in writing. Why would they not destroy the writings as well? Isaiah was said to have been sawn in half, yet we have his writings. Jeremiah was rejected, cast into a pit, etc and yet we have his writings. Even the brass plates were kept current by Laban's scribe(s) who included Jeremiah's prophecies:

1 Nephi 5:10 And after they had given thanks unto the God of Israel, my father, Lehi, took the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, and he did search them from the beginning.
11 And he beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses, which gave an account of the creation of the world, and also of Adam and Eve, who were our first parents;
12 And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah;
13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.
14 And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob, who was sold into Egypt, and who was preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he might preserve his father, Jacob, and all his household from perishing with famine.

Therefore, while many or most Jews at Jerusalem at the time were not familiar with Egyptian culture, language, etc, some few indeed were. I find it odd that Lehi would have named his middle sons after what seem like Egyptian names: Nephi and Sam (NOT Samuel). I find it curiouser that while Lehi's eldest sons are given traditional names, Laman and Lemuel, his middle sons appear Egyptian to me. Incidentally, you will eventually read that Lehi bore two more sons in the wilderness and named them Jacob and Joseph. I find it fascinating that there appears to be three stages of influence in Lehi's life, which are represented by the names he chose for his sons, Jacob and Joseph for obvious reasons. Of course, this is all my own personal observation after some serious consideration.

[oneClimbs]

I couldn't sleep and I gotta be at work soon, but first some thoughts. Rebbe, another thing that may be noteworthy, considering the Book of Mormon scriptures provided thus far supporting Lehi's lineage being through Joseph. We know that Joseph was sold into Egypt. This surely played a role in Joseph's posterity becoming immersed in Egyptian culture, language, etc, particularly for the affluent Josephites. Lehi discovers after recovering from the brass plates that Laban was also a descendant of Joseph and why it fell to Laban to be the record keeper. Consider the following passage:

1 Kings 19:13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

It's ironic to me that the Jews didn't believe many of the prophets and killed them, yet preserved their words in writing. Why would they not destroy the writings as well? Isaiah was said to have been sawn in half, yet we have his writings. Jeremiah was rejected, cast into a pit, etc and yet we have his writings. Even the brass plates were kept current by Laban's scribe(s) who included Jeremiah's prophecies:

1 Nephi 5:10 And after they had given thanks unto the God of Israel, my father, Lehi, took the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, and he did search them from the beginning.
11 And he beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses, which gave an account of the creation of the world, and also of Adam and Eve, who were our first parents;
12 And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah;
13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.
14 And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob, who was sold into Egypt, and who was preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he might preserve his father, Jacob, and all his household from perishing with famine.

Therefore, while many or most Jews at Jerusalem at the time were not familiar with Egyptian culture, language, etc, some few indeed were. I find it odd that Lehi would have named his middle sons after what seem like Egyptian names: Nephi and Sam (NOT Samuel). I find it curiouser that while Lehi's eldest sons are given traditional names, Laman and Lemuel, his middle sons appear Egyptian to me. Incidentally, you will eventually read that Lehi bore two more sons in the wilderness and named them Jacob and Joseph. I find it fascinating that there appears to be three stages of influence in Lehi's life, which are represented by the names he chose for his sons, Jacob and Joseph for obvious reasons. Of course, this is all my own personal observation after some serious consideration.

These are very insightful comments and you have a good point about Joseph’s connection to Egypt. I wonder what part that might have played in Lehi learning the Egyptian language.

I think that you may be onto something when you suggested that the people would seek to destroy the writings of the prophets as well. We read that these brass plates were kept in the treasury and not in a synagogue. This may have been for their protection and I think it’s possible that they may have hidden so that they would not be destroyed under Josiah reforms. And Lehi secured them to further protect them from the impending Babylonian invasion.

Maybe one of the reasons the brass plates were written in Egyptian was to protect or encode their content from other Jews who perhaps wouldn’t have been able to read Egyptian, discover what they were and destroy them.

In the book of Mormon you’re going to see a couple of preexilic prophets referenced whose writings were contained in the brass plates. Their names were Zenos, Neum, and Zenock. Maybe the writings of these and other prophets may have been seen as herertical but their writings were tucked away under lock and key by some concerned or inspired individual. If they contained some of Jermiah’s words that means that they were updated recently but we do not know by who.

Zenos is quoted most, particularly his “allegory of the olive tree” which is the longest chapter in the Book of Mormon: Jacob 5. Israel is compared to an olive tree and there is a lot of grafting and transplanting going on with the Lord of the vineyard and his servants.

Your observation about the names of Lehi’s sons potentially representing three periods of his life is very intriguing and not something I noticed before. I think you are on to something with that, and now that you pointed it out I’m going to have to pay attention.

Perhaps he bore Nephi and Sam after what may have been an extended time living in or near Egypt? That would explain him learning the language.

[oneClimbs]

Two good reads when considering the names. Looks like your theory has some weight.

https://nephicode.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... n.html?m=1

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscr ... 7&index=25

[larsenb]

Two good reads when considering the names. Looks like your theory has some weight.

https://nephicode.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... n.html?m=1

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscr ... 7&index=25

You read Nibley, then forget about it until you go back and reread, and once again realize what ground-breaking, brilliant work he did (regarding the last link; and the first was referencing much of what he did w/out attribution).

Incidentally for Mormon Blog Spot to put: "Lehi Never Saw MesoAmerica" heading this article doesn't speak very well for the proprietor of the site.

[marc]

Two good reads when considering the names. Looks like your theory has some weight.

https://nephicode.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... n.html?m=1

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscr ... 7&index=25

Fascinating commentaries. Thank you for sharing them.

[marc]

Rebbe, I am curious if the following passage is in any way significant or curious to you. Here Nephi lectures his brothers, who are in constant need of reminding of God's ways and laws and commandments:

1 Nephi 17:23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, spake unto them, saying: Do ye believe that our fathers, who were the children of Israel, would have been led away out of the hands of the Egyptians if they had not hearkened unto the words of the Lord?

24 Yea, do ye suppose that they would have been led out of bondage, if the Lord had not commanded Moses that he should lead them out of bondage?

25 Now ye know that the children of Israel were in bondage; and ye know that they were laden with tasks, which were grievous to be borne; wherefore, ye know that it must needs be a good thing for them, that they should be brought out of bondage.

26 Now ye know that Moses was commanded of the Lord to do that great work; and ye know that by his word the waters of the Red Sea were divided hither and thither, and they passed through on dry ground.

27 But ye know that the Egyptians were drowned in the Red Sea, who were the armies of Pharaoh.

28 And ye also know that they were fed with manna in the wilderness.

29 Yea, and ye also know that Moses, by his word according to the power of God which was in him, smote the rock, and there came forth water, that the children of Israel might quench their thirst.

30 And notwithstanding they being led, the Lord their God, their Redeemer, going before them, leading them by day and giving light unto them by night, and doing all things for them which were expedient for man to receive, they hardened their hearts and blinded their minds, and reviled against Moses and against the true and living God.

31 And it came to pass that according to his word he did destroy them; and according to his word he did lead them; and according to his word he did do all things for them; and there was not any thing done save it were by his word.

32 And after they had crossed the river Jordan he did make them mighty unto the driving out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction.

33 And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

34 Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

35 Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But behold, this people had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it.

36 Behold, the Lord hath created the earth that it should be inhabited; and he hath created his children that they should possess it.

37 And he raiseth up a righteous nation, and destroyeth the nations of the wicked.

38 And he leadeth away the righteous into precious lands, and the wicked he destroyeth, and curseth the land unto them for their sakes.

39 He ruleth high in the heavens, for it is his throne, and this earth is his footstool.

40 And he loveth those who will have him to be their God. Behold, he loved our fathers, and he covenanted with them, yea, even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and he remembered the covenants which he had made; wherefore, he did bring them out of the land of Egypt.

41 And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished.

42 And they did harden their hearts from time to time, and they did revile against Moses, and also against God; nevertheless, ye know that they were led forth by his matchless power into the land of promise.

[marc]

Rebbe, another curious thing in the Book of Mormon is when people go "up to Jerusalem" or "down to" this land or that land.

1 Nephi 3:4 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brothers should go unto the house of Laban, and seek the records, and bring them down hither into the wilderness...
9 And I, Nephi, and my brethren took our journey in the wilderness, with our tents, to go up to the land of Jerusalem.
10 And it came to pass that when we had gone up to the land of Jerusalem, I and my brethren did consult one with another.

Mosiah 9:3 And yet, I being over-zealous to inherit the land of our fathers, collected as many as were desirous to go up to possess the land, and started again on our journey into the wilderness to go up to the land; but we were smitten with famine and sore afflictions; for we were slow to remember the Lord our God.

When Nephi and his family settled the new land, they seemed to gravitate to higher ground--to ascend to a place they could call home. This is fascinating to me and it is found throughout the Book of Mormon.

[Alaris]

Excruciating detail doesn't bother me in the least

That is so, eh? From your mouth to G-d's ear!

Ok...let's take this slowly, bite by precious bite.

We must ask ourselves...What, precisely, was the role of the anointing oil and the scent that was created? This is important to understand if we are to understand the process of anointing itself and how and why it differed from Aharon and his sons.

In Jewish tradition, smell is exceedingly important for many diverse reasons. We know, for example, that smell is important to the Almighty, blessed be He, and that undergirding of importance then translated to Temple rituals and sacrifices.

Remember when you gather at your bubbe's home for a family meal? How does it smell? It smells good, yes, but it also smells of comfort and family and belonging. It smells right. Just as the aroma of cooking delicious food signifies an upcoming meal, other scents signify their associated meanings and expressions. These smells permit individuals to make order for themselves in lifecycle of life. In additions to the modern beneficence of smell, ancient Israel created, under the Almighty's instruction, a rich religious context. The Law (and when I say the Law, I am referring to the Law of Moshe) consisted of very strict purity laws by which one could easily become defiled. The Scriptures are replete with this happening! We Jews have a difficulty in listening and in quieting our stubborn wills!

(In fact, those who were to participate in certain key times...Yom Kippur, for example...had "dress rehearsals" as well as those who would stand in when the High Priest was unable to perform his duties due to illness or becoming ritually impure. The fate of the whole nation depended on it!)

Many of these impurities emanated a scent that would create a sense of foreboding, thus signaling that some befouled and impure area was nearby. In this way, the role of scent was twofold...

Firstly, it aided one in avoiding a situation in which they could become impure (This was always to be avoided!)...

Secondly, the scent identified the nature of the area in which they stood or were approaching. In detail, both points are quite distinct. In reality, they are one in the same as the nature of an area either defiles or it does not. Bad smells, for the children of Israel, became indicative of impure areas, being associated with disease and death and defilement. (See Sh'mot 7, 8, 16, and Isaiah 3, Amos 4, etc. for more.)

On the other hand, pleasant smells and aromas became associated with health and life and vitality, thus indicating places of neutral or, more importantly, positive purity. Scent was the first indicator (aha!) as to whether one was heading into a ritually unclean space, and also a warning to those about to enter a place rendered too holy for them--one in which they would become the defiling presence, such as the tabernacle.

Everything which the Almighty has done, blessed be He, throughout the history of our people has been building to the point at which he could establish and build a personal relationship with us. G-d (as I'm sure you know!) loves His people. He desires to be close to us. He desires to dwell among us.

In order to accomplish this, however, He must needs establish a sacred space that is set apart from the rest of the world. He had to further create a distinction between the sacred and the profane. He starts this in Sh'mot when he gave us the Ten Commandments.

(On a side note, I have a tiny quiz for you. What would you say, for a Jewish person, is the most holy of all holy days or feasts?)

Some individuals, for the right price (of course!), would obtain perfumes and oils and subsequently rub, or anoint, them into their skin, thus masking their natural scent (this, back then, was probably a very good thing!) and granting a new scent. (See 2 Sam., Amos 6, Mic. 6, Ruth 3, etc.) While many well-off Israelites enjoyed this luxury, so, too, did the priests. The priests, however, were the only Israelites permitted to use the "holy anointing oil" on penalty of exile by the Almighty, blessed be He. This oil bears the L-rd's scent. In order to be so designated, there was a strict, divinely mandated recipe that had to be followed and was mandated by HaShem through Moshe...

"Take unto yourself choice spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much aromatic cinnamon, 250 shekels sweet cane, and 500 shekels cassia--all according to the sanctuary shekel--and a win of oil olive." -Sh'mot 30:23-34

Suffice it to say...such a pungent and sacred smell would attract the rich and the poor alike. As such, the L-rd unequivocally forbade the duplication or use of this oil for any purpose outside that which was explicitly stated by Him. Any who were anointed with this sacred anointing oil are anointed with the scent of the L-rd. This scent (and here is the key) would, to some degree, transmit a level of the status and personality of the L-rd to whoever, or whatever, was being anointed. Thus, he, she, or it, would be rendered sacred. Remember, when Aharon is anointed in Vayikra 8, it says, "And Moshe poured some of the anointing oil upon Aharon's head, and anointed him in order to make him holy."

Whoever, or whatever, is anointed will similarly function as a deliverer for the people since the priests performed, through their varied sacrificial duties, an "atoning role [which was] necessary for both forgiveness and purification."

Since the holy anointing oil represented the scent, personality, and status of the Almighty, blessed be He, every drop upon an individual's skin brought that individual closer to the L-rd. They became partakers of a degree of the L-rd's holiness, placing them on a holier sphere than the unanointed congregation of Israel.

This was somewhat different for the sons of Aharon. Both Aharon as well as his sons were anointed through a sprinkling of a mixture of the blood (from the sacrifice) and holy anointing oil upon them. While Aharon was anointed in a similar way, he had the subtle but important distinction of having an unspecified amount of the holy oil poured upon his head (it would have been at least twice that of his sons), thereby rendering him still set apart, but occupying a space of even greater holiness.

Fantastic insights, thank you! I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately. The high priest required certain odors to protect him from the Lord on Yom Kippur. That is super intriguing to me. How does odor protect or endanger someone.

Two coincidences yesterday. I interviewed a gentleman at work yesterday who brought a service dog. I later Googled service dog as I was curious what they're used for as this guy appeared very healthy. Epilepsy and diabetes were both listed as functions of a service dog. How do you train a dog to assist with diabetes? A smell?

Second coincidence was a four minute NDE video I watched on YouTube. The woman spent a long time describing the peculiar smell! If her account is accurate then even our spirits can smell!

Does a sinner smell differently to G-d? Certainly he has a better sense of smell than a bloodhound.

[larsenb]

. . . . . . . Maybe one of the reasons the brass plates were written in Egyptian was to protect or encode their content from other Jews who perhaps wouldn’t have been able to read Egyptian, discover what they were and destroy them. . . . . . .

These passages imply that one of the reasons Egyptian was used in their writings and on the plates was to conserve space:

Mormon 9:32-33 32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

Hieratic certainly was a shorthand to Hieroglyphic writing. Demotic (and maybe Merotic) was certainly a shorthand to Hieratic. So undoubtedly, the Nephite 'reformed Egyptian' was akin to and maybe derived from one of these.

[oneClimbs]

Does a sinner smell differently to G-d? Certainly he has a better sense of smell than a bloodhound.

This topic has taken an interesting turn, eh? I'm enjoying this discussion quite a bit. One of the things that has been on my mind is a quote from Hugh Nibley:

"Here we have “I detect, I perceive, I note.” (He’s blind, you see.) “the odor, the spirit, the smell of Joseph, if you do not think me out of my head from old age and a bit barmy.” It talks about the spirit that is in it, the east wind that has brought it, etc. And this is a very important thing: “When they placed it upon the face of Jacob, he smelled also the smell of the Garden of Eden. For behold there is not in all the earth another garment that has that smell in it.” This is a unique thing; this is the garment. “For there is not in any other garment on earth of the winds of the garden of Eden, unless it is in this one garment.” So you can see why the brethren were so jealous; it was the garment of the priesthood. The commentator says he recognized that it was Joseph’s garment by feeling it first because it had three marks in it." Hugh Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, vol. 3, 51-52

Here are a few scriptures to throw in the mix.

"And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed:" Genesis 27:27

"And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." Genesis 8:20-21

"And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours." Leviticus 26:31

"And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty." Isaiah 3:24

"I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies." Amos 5:21

"Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart; Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul." D&C 59:18-19

"Therefore, if this is the case, I would that ye should go in and see my husband, for he has been laid upon his bed for the space of two days and two nights; and some say that he is not dead, but others say that he is dead and that he stinketh, and that he ought to be placed in the sepulchre; but as for myself, to me he doth not stink." Alma 19:5

It is interesting to note that in order to smell, we must breath in, even the breath of life as it were. We inhale and carried to our senses are certain scents from the world around us, they are in the wind, with the breath and in us become one. It is similar to the other senses such as taste, you take something into yourself and there is a sense there to detect and discern what is entering. Same with sound, the vibrations travel, come in contact with our auditory equipment and we discern information that we can then make decisions about. When God created the earth, he spake, he sent out those vibrations and creation responded. Man was created last and God is still waiting for us to complete his creation by our obedience.

Our senses can teach us symbolically about ideas that come into our mind. Do God's ideas have a sweet smell to our minds or a stink? Do the sins of the world stink to us or do they smell sweet?

[Alaris]

Does a sinner smell differently to G-d? Certainly he has a better sense of smell than a bloodhound.

This topic has taken an interesting turn, eh? I'm enjoying this discussion quite a bit. One of the things that has been on my mind is a quote from Hugh Nibley:

"Here we have “I detect, I perceive, I note.” (He’s blind, you see.) “the odor, the spirit, the smell of Joseph, if you do not think me out of my head from old age and a bit barmy.” It talks about the spirit that is in it, the east wind that has brought it, etc. And this is a very important thing: “When they placed it upon the face of Jacob, he smelled also the smell of the Garden of Eden. For behold there is not in all the earth another garment that has that smell in it.” This is a unique thing; this is the garment. “For there is not in any other garment on earth of the winds of the garden of Eden, unless it is in this one garment.” So you can see why the brethren were so jealous; it was the garment of the priesthood. The commentator says he recognized that it was Joseph’s garment by feeling it first because it had three marks in it." Hugh Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, vol. 3, 51-52

Here are a few scriptures to throw in the mix.

"And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed:" Genesis 27:27

"And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." Genesis 8:20-21

"And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours." Leviticus 26:31

"And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty." Isaiah 3:24

"I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies." Amos 5:21

"Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart; Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul." D&C 59:18-19

"Therefore, if this is the case, I would that ye should go in and see my husband, for he has been laid upon his bed for the space of two days and two nights; and some say that he is not dead, but others say that he is dead and that he stinketh, and that he ought to be placed in the sepulchre; but as for myself, to me he doth not stink." Alma 19:5

It is interesting to note that in order to smell, we must breath in, even the breath of life as it were. We inhale and carried to our senses are certain scents from the world around us, they are in the wind, with the breath and in us become one. It is similar to the other senses such as taste, you take something into yourself and there is a sense there to detect and discern what is entering. Same with sound, the vibrations travel, come in contact with our auditory equipment and we discern information that we can then make decisions about. When God created the earth, he spake, he sent out those vibrations and creation responded. Man was created last and God is still waiting for us to complete his creation by our obedience.

Our senses can teach us symbolically about ideas that come into our mind. Do God's ideas have a sweet smell to our minds or a stink? Do the sins of the world stink to us or do they smell sweet?

Great post! I wonder if smells that trigger memories come into play. Imagine if the right aroma triggered premortal memories!

[oneClimbs]

These passages imply that one of the reasons Egyptian was used in their writings and on the plates was to conserve space:

Mormon 9:32-33 32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

I think that explains why the Nephites used an altered form of Egyptian on their records, but would that same reasoning explain why the brass plates were in Egyptian? Perhaps there was another reason why they were in Egyptian other than saving space. The Nephite record was in gold which is a more precious metal and Mormon didn't seem to be in a position where he could acquire more. He was working against time and limited space. That may not have been an issue with the brass plates so that's why I suggested one reason is to protect the content from others especially if those that were a danger to the record were not particularly literate in Egyptian. I'm not saying that IS the reason, just playing with ideas here. You're right though, space was certainly the determining factor with the gold plates.

Hieratic certainly was a shorthand to Hieroglyphic writing. Demotic (and maybe Merotic) was certainly a shorthand to Hieratic. So undoubtedly, the Nephite 'reformed Egyptian' was akin to and maybe derived from one of these.

I think so as well.