LDS Freedom Forum

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 4:39 pm Shalom to you. I am not certain that I fully understand what you mean by ordination of priests, so if you would, let me know so I make sure to answer you to the best of my ability.

I can say this...

The first kohen (or priest) was Aharon (Aaron) the brother of Moshe, of the tribe of Levi. Aharon and his sons were designated as the first priests and Aharon served as the first High Priest. All of his (Aharon) male descendants were chosen by G-d to be priests forever as an eternal covenant. Exodus 40:15..."And it shall be for them an appointment as priests forever, for all generations."

Sorry, I am not at all certain I have adequately answered your question, but I am happy to do my best if you clarify a bit. Thank you kindly for these excellent questions! I am learning a lot about how you think, and I appreciate that very much.

5tev3 wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 9:53 am

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 4:39 pm Shalom to you. I am not certain that I fully understand what you mean by ordination of priests, so if you would, let me know so I make sure to answer you to the best of my ability.

I can say this...

The first kohen (or priest) was Aharon (Aaron) the brother of Moshe, of the tribe of Levi. Aharon and his sons were designated as the first priests and Aharon served as the first High Priest. All of his (Aharon) male descendants were chosen by G-d to be priests forever as an eternal covenant. Exodus 40:15..."And it shall be for them an appointment as priests forever, for all generations."

Sorry, I am not at all certain I have adequately answered your question, but I am happy to do my best if you clarify a bit. Thank you kindly for these excellent questions! I am learning a lot about how you think, and I appreciate that very much.

Thank you for your response, let me see if I can clarify. By ordination, I mean the actual steps that Aaron, his sons, and potentially other priests went through. There was oil involved and certain visible, physical rituals whereby a priest was consecrated to their appointment. If we were watching this process, what would we see and what parts of that process could relate symbolically to things that were done by Jesus in the context of his messianic role in the Christian context?

Thanks for your consideration, I know that this is not a simple question but I appreciate any insights and hope that what I am asking is a little bit more clear.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 9:47 am OK...let me preface all my commentary by telling you in all earnestness that I do not wish to cause offense to you or the beliefs you hold dear. It is not in me to be overtly contentious. Having said, that, let me proceed...

As I make my way through this (in the course of this thread), please correct me if I am mistaken about the Book of Mormon from my understanding.

According to the introduction to the Book of Mormon, there was a group of Israelites who left Jerusalem around 600 BCE and eventually found their way to the present day American continent. Their leader was a man (Jewish?) by the name of Lehi. This Lehi had a son who was tzadik (righteous) called Nephi.

Is this correct so far?

I am wondering specifically about the Jewishness of Lehi and Nephi. A cursory reading would seem to suggest that Nephi, at least, harbored some unkind feelings toward the Jewish people of his time. Would you say this is an accurate statement? I will give a few examples that jumped out at me...

In the first chapter of the first book, Nephi refers to his father's Jewish persecutors using terms such as "wickedness" and "abominations." In the second book, he condemns the Jews' "works of darkness."

Now...having said that...I have a feeling that I am not reading the full context. It is no secret that my people have been disobedient on and off for the whole of our history! We have a funny relationship with G-d. He loves us, He blesses us, we are grateful, we get lazy and (eventually) disobedient, He proclaims punishments, we kvetch, we repent, He forgives, He blesses...and on and on it goes!

At the time of Lehi/Nephi, if I am not mistaken, the prophet would have been Jeremiah. If this is the case, then Nephi's criticizing of the Jews sins at that time has got nothing on Jeremiah. We were not particularly walking in righteousness at that time in our history.

Anyway...that's where I am for now.

Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 10:14 am Thank you for that clarification. I think I see what you mean. Allow me to describe the process as I understand it in the time of Aharon and his sons, and then we can look at what may or may not have taken place in the time of Jesus (Second Temple Judaism), which would have been similar in some ways, but different in others.

Priests basically functioned as intermediaries between the human and the divine. Perhaps one of their greatest responsibilities was to protect Israel from sin and anything impure. In D'varim (Deuteronomy) 33, we see that the priests were to teach the Law...including moral/purity laws and secular or civil laws. They were also to offer incense to the L-rd G-d.

The actual process was a seven-day ritual. It isn't entirely clear what parts of the ritual were performed each of the seven days. There is much debate surrounding this, with which I will not bore you. (I'd prefer your eyes not bleed. )

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 10:14 am There would have been washing, robing, anointing, as well as sacrificing. ALL of this was under the injunction to "make them holy." This is the most important as well as the most pervasive as seen in Sh'mot (Exodus) 29.

Aharon and his sons were washed first to ensure ritual purity. This process is continued today in the synagogue in certain situations (such as Erev Shabbat) with a ceremony known as Netilat Yadayim. After this washing, they would receive elaborate vestments, in the case of Aharon, and simpler plain white linen garments for his sons. After that, Aharon (but not his sons) would be anointed. Again with the idea to "make him holy." (Lev 8.12) Following that, a series of sacrifices were performed on behalf of all the initiates, including a sin offering for the purpose of expiation. Another of the sacrifices was a ram.

During the solemn ritual, some of the blood of the ram would be sprinkled upon Aharon as well as his sons, as well as their vestments.

I can go on or give further detail if you'd like. Is this kind of what you were looking for?

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 9:06 am

marc wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 4:38 am

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:46 pmMay I ask...when you say "Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses," what does this

...in practical terms is that the mortal Messiah kept the law perfectly (He did not do away with the law, but rather accomplished it--He filled it fully). All its penalties against God's sinful people were poured out on Him. Therefore, the Law of Moses is no longer the path to righteousness, but now Jesus Christ is that path.

May I ask...how does this translate into practical terms? More specifically, what do you see this doing to both justification as well as sanctification?

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 9:33 am

True wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 9:13 am I bought a Book of Mormon in Hebrew a long time ago, thinking I might need to give it to someone one day. Do you want it? The binding broke for some reason but it is sitting on my shelf not being read:). PM me if you would like it!

I shall PM you, thank you. Do you read Hebrew, btw?

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 9:06 am May I ask...how does this translate into practical terms? More specifically, what do you see this doing to both justification as well as sanctification?

How do you walk in holiness?

Do you believe that any of the Law of Moshe is still applicable? And what of the other covenants spoken of in Torah...the Abrahamic Covenant, the Noahide Laws, etc? Thank you again and may He who made the heavens and the earth grant you a splendid day of work.

JST Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then, the law was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made in the law given to Moses, who was ordained by the hand of angels to be a mediator of this first covenant, (the law.)
20 Now this mediator was not a mediator of the new covenant; but there is one mediator of the new covenant, who is Christ, as it is written in the law concerning the promises made to Abraham and his seed. Now Christ is the mediator of life; for this is the promise which God made unto Abraham.

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Luke 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 ¶ And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Jeremiah 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

marc wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 2:56 pm

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 9:06 am May I ask...how does this translate into practical terms? More specifically, what do you see this doing to both justification as well as sanctification?

How do you walk in holiness?

Do you believe that any of the Law of Moshe is still applicable? And what of the other covenants spoken of in Torah...the Abrahamic Covenant, the Noahide Laws, etc? Thank you again and may He who made the heavens and the earth grant you a splendid day of work.

I think I understand what you mean. I think it is reasonable to say that he who keeps the law perfectly is just. But who is not a sinner? Therefore, how can anyone be justified by the law? And how are they sanctified? As all are fallen, all must repent and yet who does not sin again? To walk in holiness is to continually repent. Walking in holiness is walking under a cloak of grace provided by the Messiah who is our purchaser. As the Law of Moses was not done away, it is still applicable. Thou shalt not kill, etc. Regarding the first covenant, the one made to Abraham, it still applies.

JST Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then, the law was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made in the law given to Moses, who was ordained by the hand of angels to be a mediator of this first covenant, (the law.)
20 Now this mediator was not a mediator of the new covenant; but there is one mediator of the new covenant, who is Christ, as it is written in the law concerning the promises made to Abraham and his seed. Now Christ is the mediator of life; for this is the promise which God made unto Abraham.

And so it was.

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

and

Luke 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 ¶ And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

With the Old Covenant, the Israelites were required to obey the Lord and keep the Law and in return, He would protect and bless them. The Old Covenant required daily sacrifices of animals as a reminder of people's sins. But with the New Covenant, Jesus Christ made Himself (the unspotted Lamb of God) an offering for sin. This was predicted and prophesied by the prophet Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

As the Old Covenant was written upon stone, the New Covenant becomes written in our hearts. Under the New Covenant, we may receive salvation as a free gift by believing on His name and repenting of sins, confessing to Him that His grace may cover us.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In other words, no matter how many good works we may do in life, whether hundreds or millions, if we even sin once, we are subject to the law and must pay a penalty. Justice makes its claim. But because of the New Covenant, sin is freely forgiven if we repent. Sanctification comes from the reception of the Holy Ghost, or in other words, being baptized with fire.

I hope I understood what you were trying to ask and that my answers make sense. Soon you will read in the Book of Mormon, the prophet Nephi quoting Isaiah extensively. This will make some very interesting discussions, which I look forward to. I am really enjoying our discussion, though it is proving challenging to understand your perspective. Thank you for your patience and willingness to exchange ideas. I am edified by our conversation so far.

It is a tree of life for those who cling to it, and those who uphold it are to be praised. Its ways are pleasant, and all its paths peaceful. Cause us to return to you, L-rd, and we shall return. Renew our days as of old.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 4:19 pmYou make some interesting observations. What would you say is the future of Israel and her people in the great plan of the Almighty?

I agree with you that to walk in holiness is to continually repent. The Hebrew word often translated as repentance (teshuvah) actually means to "return." When we stray, as we all do, it is incumbent upon us to return to G-d's ways and observe His statutes. After we read the Torah each week, upon putting away the Torah scroll, we say these words:

It is a tree of life for those who cling to it, and those who uphold it are to be praised. Its ways are pleasant, and all its paths peaceful. Cause us to return to you, L-rd, and we shall return. Renew our days as of old.

5tev3 wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 10:38 am Excruciating detail doesn't bother me in the least

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 5:20 pm

5tev3 wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 10:38 am Excruciating detail doesn't bother me in the least

That is so, eh? From your mouth to G-d's ear!

Ok...let's take this slowly, bite by precious bite.

We must ask ourselves...What, precisely, was the role of the anointing oil and the scent that was created? This is important to understand if we are to understand the process of anointing itself and how and why it differed from Aharon and his sons.

In Jewish tradition, smell is exceedingly important for many diverse reasons. We know, for example, that smell is important to the Almighty, blessed be He, and that undergirding of importance then translated to Temple rituals and sacrifices.

Remember when you gather at your bubbe's home for a family meal? How does it smell? It smells good, yes, but it also smells of comfort and family and belonging. It smells right. Just as the aroma of cooking delicious food signifies an upcoming meal, other scents signify their associated meanings and expressions. These smells permit individuals to make order for themselves in lifecycle of life. In additions to the modern beneficence of smell, ancient Israel created, under the Almighty's instruction, a rich religious context. The Law (and when I say the Law, I am referring to the Law of Moshe) consisted of very strict purity laws by which one could easily become defiled. The Scriptures are replete with this happening! We Jews have a difficulty in listening and in quieting our stubborn wills!

(In fact, those who were to participate in certain key times...Yom Kippur, for example...had "dress rehearsals" as well as those who would stand in when the High Priest was unable to perform his duties due to illness or becoming ritually impure. The fate of the whole nation depended on it!)

Many of these impurities emanated a scent that would create a sense of foreboding, thus signaling that some befouled and impure area was nearby. In this way, the role of scent was twofold...

Firstly, it aided one in avoiding a situation in which they could become impure (This was always to be avoided!)...

Secondly, the scent identified the nature of the area in which they stood or were approaching. In detail, both points are quite distinct. In reality, they are one in the same as the nature of an area either defiles or it does not. Bad smells, for the children of Israel, became indicative of impure areas, being associated with disease and death and defilement. (See Sh'mot 7, 8, 16, and Isaiah 3, Amos 4, etc. for more.)

On the other hand, pleasant smells and aromas became associated with health and life and vitality, thus indicating places of neutral or, more importantly, positive purity. Scent was the first indicator (aha!) as to whether one was heading into a ritually unclean space, and also a warning to those about to enter a place rendered too holy for them--one in which they would become the defiling presence, such as the tabernacle.

Everything which the Almighty has done, blessed be He, throughout the history of our people has been building to the point at which he could establish and build a personal relationship with us. G-d (as I'm sure you know!) loves His people. He desires to be close to us. He desires to dwell among us.

In order to accomplish this, however, He must needs establish a sacred space that is set apart from the rest of the world. He had to further create a distinction between the sacred and the profane. He starts this in Sh'mot when he gave us the Ten Commandments.

(On a side note, I have a tiny quiz for you. What would you say, for a Jewish person, is the most holy of all holy days or feasts?)

Some individuals, for the right price (of course!), would obtain perfumes and oils and subsequently rub, or anoint, them into their skin, thus masking their natural scent (this, back then, was probably a very good thing!) and granting a new scent. (See 2 Sam., Amos 6, Mic. 6, Ruth 3, etc.) While many well-off Israelites enjoyed this luxury, so, too, did the priests. The priests, however, were the only Israelites permitted to use the "holy anointing oil" on penalty of exile by the Almighty, blessed be He. This oil bears the L-rd's scent. In order to be so designated, there was a strict, divinely mandated recipe that had to be followed and was mandated by HaShem through Moshe...

"Take unto yourself choice spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much aromatic cinnamon, 250 shekels sweet cane, and 500 shekels cassia--all according to the sanctuary shekel--and a win of oil olive." -Sh'mot 30:23-34

Suffice it to say...such a pungent and sacred smell would attract the rich and the poor alike. As such, the L-rd unequivocally forbade the duplication or use of this oil for any purpose outside that which was explicitly stated by Him. Any who were anointed with this sacred anointing oil are anointed with the scent of the L-rd. This scent (and here is the key) would, to some degree, transmit a level of the status and personality of the L-rd to whoever, or whatever, was being anointed. Thus, he, she, or it, would be rendered sacred. Remember, when Aharon is anointed in Vayikra 8, it says, "And Moshe poured some of the anointing oil upon Aharon's head, and anointed him in order to make him holy."

Whoever, or whatever, is anointed will similarly function as a deliverer for the people since the priests performed, through their varied sacrificial duties, an "atoning role [which was] necessary for both forgiveness and purification."

Since the holy anointing oil represented the scent, personality, and status of the Almighty, blessed be He, every drop upon an individual's skin brought that individual closer to the L-rd. They became partakers of a degree of the L-rd's holiness, placing them on a holier sphere than the unanointed congregation of Israel.

This was somewhat different for the sons of Aharon. Both Aharon as well as his sons were anointed through a sprinkling of a mixture of the blood (from the sacrifice) and holy anointing oil upon them. While Aharon was anointed in a similar way, he had the subtle but important distinction of having an unspecified amount of the holy oil poured upon his head (it would have been at least twice that of his sons), thereby rendering him still set apart, but occupying a space of even greater holiness.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 5:54 pm If I may ask...at which point, do you believe, did Lehi (and those who came after) decided to stop being Jewish? Was there an event that made them stop?

A person's jewishness, today, is often determined by the mother. At least in Israel. This was not the case in Biblical times. So, thus, I am wondering when the change happened in the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 33:3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people. For I pray continually for them by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, because of them; and I cry unto my God in faith, and I know that he will hear my cry.

4 And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.

5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

marc wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 6:06 pm

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 5:54 pm If I may ask...at which point, do you believe, did Lehi (and those who came after) decided to stop being Jewish? Was there an event that made them stop?

A person's jewishness, today, is often determined by the mother. At least in Israel. This was not the case in Biblical times. So, thus, I am wondering when the change happened in the Book of Mormon.

They never denied their Jewishness. But you may be referring to something different. Consider some of Nephi's final words in his second book:

2 Nephi 33:3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people. For I pray continually for them by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, because of them; and I cry unto my God in faith, and I know that he will hear my cry.

4 And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.

5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 5:54 pm If I may ask...at which point, do you believe, did Lehi (and those who came after) decided to stop being Jewish? Was there an event that made them stop?

A person's jewishness, today, is often determined by the mother. At least in Israel. This was not the case in Biblical times. So, thus, I am wondering when the change happened in the Book of Mormon.

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 6:19 pmThank you for that. Let me ask this, if I may...

...if you were there, at the death of Lehi or Nephi or any of their children, do you believe in their heart and mind they were dying as Jews or something else?

Were they given Jewish funerals (according to Jewish tradition at that time)?

2 Nephi 4:12 And it came to pass after my father, Lehi, had spoken unto all his household, according to the feelings of his heart and the Spirit of the Lord which was in him, he waxed old. And it came to pass that he died, and was buried.

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 6:19 pm

marc wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 6:06 pm

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 5:54 pm If I may ask...at which point, do you believe, did Lehi (and those who came after) decided to stop being Jewish? Was there an event that made them stop?

A person's jewishness, today, is often determined by the mother. At least in Israel. This was not the case in Biblical times. So, thus, I am wondering when the change happened in the Book of Mormon.

They never denied their Jewishness. But you may be referring to something different. Consider some of Nephi's final words in his second book:

2 Nephi 33:3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people. For I pray continually for them by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, because of them; and I cry unto my God in faith, and I know that he will hear my cry.

4 And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.

5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

Thank you for that. Let me ask this, if I may...

...if you were there, at the death of Lehi or Nephi or any of their children, do you believe in their heart and mind they were dying as Jews or something else?

Were they given Jewish funerals (according to Jewish tradition at that time)?

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 9:22 am Shalom and thank you to all who have welcomed me so warmly.

I was invited to start a thread regarding the Book of Mormon and how it may be seen through a Hebraic lens.

This is, indeed, a daunting task! I have a rudimentary knowledge of the Book of Knowledge, so it may take some time to wrap my mind around all this.

In the meanwhile, I thought I’d start this thread to answer any questions you may have about Hebrew, Judaism, and everything relating to the Book of Mormon from my limited knowledge of what it contains.

I am rabbi in Conservative Judaism, by way of background.

I do look forward to edifying dialogue.

Teancum wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:07 pm Lehi had the training, or knowledge of the writing system of the Egyptians, as well as the Hebrew writing as well as an understanding of the Jews at Jerusalem.

Long story short, it depends on who you ask

I guess it depends upon if you consider their "Jewishness" to be because of how well they kept the laws and commandments of God or whether their "Jewishness" was based upon "traditions" or whether it is based solely upon lineage or upon whether or not others recognized and sanctioned their "Jewishness".

The Rebbe wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:21 pm

Teancum wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:07 pm Lehi had the training, or knowledge of the writing system of the Egyptians, as well as the Hebrew writing as well as an understanding of the Jews at Jerusalem.

This part makes me wonder...why is it said among your people that Lehi had a knowledge of Egyptian (at least the written form)? It was not common at that time for Jews to have this knowledge, so I am curious if it is explained.

Long story short, it depends on who you ask

This sounds very familiar for some reason.

I guess it depends upon if you consider their "Jewishness" to be because of how well they kept the laws and commandments of God or whether their "Jewishness" was based upon "traditions" or whether it is based solely upon lineage or upon whether or not others recognized and sanctioned their "Jewishness".

I just posted on this very thing. Hopefully it makes sense to someone.