Your home for discussing politics, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and the principles of liberty.
https://ldsfreedomforum.com/
The Answer To Your Question:[email protected] wrote: ↑February 10th, 2019, 8:06 pm How can a man preside over his home and be the head of the household if his wife is no longer required to heed or "harken" to his council?
Persuasion
Persuasion—encouraging others to believe or do something by reasoning or pleading with them.
Long-Suffering
Long-suffering—patience.
Gentleness and Meekness
Love Unfeigned
Unfeigned—genuine; not faked or pretended.
and...Without Hypocrisy and without Guile
Hypocrisy—pretending to be something you are not.
Guile—deceitful; cunning.
This is how the man can be the head of the household and this is how it has always been done correctly.Reproving Betimes with Sharpness
Reproving—scolding or correcting gently; expressing disapproval.
Betimes—speedily; early; before it is too late.
Sharpness—clarity.
When Moved Upon by the Holy Ghost
Holy moly! That of course would make the whole notion of eternal families totally meaningless. Talk about a crazy, hippie, sex, free-lovin experience!Sarah wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 1:01 pm Yes, and according to our beliefs, there is more than one Heavenly Father in the Universe. We only worship one, but by any logic, he must have peers. Brigham never said that a woman could never have millions of husbands as well. The only logical way to help with all those millions of wives and children is to combine efforts with your brothers!
So men are dependant on women?Alaris wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 2:06 pmAgreed on everything you said in principle, however what you're saying sounds like it could be used as a justification to undermine and poke at a husband as an attempt to get him to stand up and take control.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 1:43 pmTrue, and does a woman swearing to obey her husband GIVE him the headship or does he already posess it and needs to realize this independant of her.
If men really want to rise above the confusion and tactics of the devil then they need to realize who they are. They do not need to have others give them their stewardship. They need to grab it and take it. Not by force but by example and living an honest good life embodying the natural traits of manhood coupled with the enabling power and refinement the priesthood offers.
Its only then that a man will ever truly have his wife and children “follow” him!
For example, my ex wife used to test me all the time to see if I would leave her by making a big stink about this and that to see what my limits are. My mother helped me understand what was happening because she used to do the same thing to my father. My ex wife admitted that's what she was doing as well. They both felt insecure due to their childhoods which led to their need to test their husbands repeatedly.
Meanwhile there's me and my poor dad clueless. Why are you driving me NUTS to just see what my limits are and to see IF I would leave you (spoiler alert in the word "ex") - anyway ... I've seen this happen as well as a justification for attempts to dominate hubbies to see if they'll stand up for themselves and take charge. Sort of a poke and prod. This is also wrong. Men are stupidly simple creatures. If you want to know the circumstances where we'd leave you, ask us. If you want to know the circumstances where I'll get angry at attempts at domination ... well, what are we really getting at? You want me to take charge and fix the dishwasher? I mean, what is this really about?
Haha true that - if you only meant it on principle then we are in complete agreement. I am certainly not saying those principles lead to those bad experiences above, but they certainly can be used as justification.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:11 pmSo men are dependant on women?Alaris wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 2:06 pmAgreed on everything you said in principle, however what you're saying sounds like it could be used as a justification to undermine and poke at a husband as an attempt to get him to stand up and take control.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 1:43 pmTrue, and does a woman swearing to obey her husband GIVE him the headship or does he already posess it and needs to realize this independant of her.
If men really want to rise above the confusion and tactics of the devil then they need to realize who they are. They do not need to have others give them their stewardship. They need to grab it and take it. Not by force but by example and living an honest good life embodying the natural traits of manhood coupled with the enabling power and refinement the priesthood offers.
Its only then that a man will ever truly have his wife and children “follow” him!
For example, my ex wife used to test me all the time to see if I would leave her by making a big stink about this and that to see what my limits are. My mother helped me understand what was happening because she used to do the same thing to my father. My ex wife admitted that's what she was doing as well. They both felt insecure due to their childhoods which led to their need to test their husbands repeatedly.
Meanwhile there's me and my poor dad clueless. Why are you driving me NUTS to just see what my limits are and to see IF I would leave you (spoiler alert in the word "ex") - anyway ... I've seen this happen as well as a justification for attempts to dominate hubbies to see if they'll stand up for themselves and take charge. Sort of a poke and prod. This is also wrong. Men are stupidly simple creatures. If you want to know the circumstances where we'd leave you, ask us. If you want to know the circumstances where I'll get angry at attempts at domination ... well, what are we really getting at? You want me to take charge and fix the dishwasher? I mean, what is this really about?
I feel like every response I try to give, even if just a question, will come out bad.
I didnt mean to spark old memories or bad things. In principle, it makes sense but I can see how it could be considered or taken as a manipulation. I didnt mean it as anything but a principle. Thats the funny thing about women speaking to men versus men speaking to other men, its all too often misunderstood or taken poorly when from women.
Polygamy doesn't have to be practiced the way that the early Church practiced it. Mentally/psychologically healthy adults who choose through their own free will and choice to live in a polygamous relationship is different than what was practiced by the early Church. We can't assume that any/all polygamy is or has to been practiced the way the early Church did it. With the early Church there was religious coercion, brainwashing, pedophilia, etc. Polygamy was "Celestial marriage" and salvation was contingent upon it. There are many other not good things that the early Church members did/believed/practiced in regards to polygamy. But, again, we don't have to believe or assume that if polygamy is something that is practiced in the eternities (and I'm not saying that it is), then it will be like the early Church. There is a way to practice polygamy that resolves/eliminates all of the concerns that you and others have brought up about polygamy.Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:08 pmHoly moly! That of course would make the whole notion of eternal families totally meaningless. Talk about a crazy, hippie, sex free-lovin experience!Sarah wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 1:01 pm Yes, and according to our beliefs, there is more than one Heavenly Father in the Universe. We only worship one, but by any logic, he must have peers. Brigham never said that a woman could never have millions of husbands as well. The only logical way to help with all those millions of wives and children is to combine efforts with your brothers!
How in the world would these spirit children know who to pray to?
Stop trying, there is no logical way or mental gymnastics possible to smooth this out. Modern women may be inclined to try to sanitize polygamy. Several wives, all friends, a big happy family.
Read BY, JT, WW, JFS, LS and others on the subject, that is not what they believed. Women were given as property by God to worthy priesthood holders. The more women you had the more righteous you were.
It's not something that provides women with any sort of value.
I don't know, this sounds a bit prudish. Like sex is a bad thing...Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 1:03 pmYep, it's just one giant celestial orgie. That doesn't sound like we're a bizarre sex-cult!Sarah wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 1:01 pmYes, and according to our beliefs, there is more than one Heavenly Father in the Universe. We only worship one, but by any logic, he must have peers. Brigham never said that a woman could never have millions of husbands as well. The only logical way to help with all those millions of wives and children is to combine efforts with your brothers!Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 11:59 amWell that assume one Heavenly Father and one Heavenly Mother. According to Prophets there are many more than one Heavenly Mother. Brigham professed that he himself would have millions of wives in the eternities. This likely makes meaningful collaboration difficult.
I have had these same thoughts as well.Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:28 pm One of the mysteries of higher existence might be something called soul-merging or soul convergence. Imagine two souls are split from one at inception/creation (from whatever they were before that) - one half is female (Yin) & the other half is male (Yang). Two halves of a whole. They go through a set of experiences individually and then, when they are done, they literally become ONE again - they mesh or merge or converge. God (whole again) would be both Male & Female, not one or the other. We may just have an anthropomorphic model that's easy to visualize for us. Anyway, that would put a real damper on polygamy, which is one male soul to many female souls. It also lends some credence to what is termed "soul mates". Just pure speculation.
I think the "becoming one" with our spouse is much more literal than we currently teach/believe. Same with the becoming one with Christ.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 6:10 pmI have had these same thoughts as well.Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:28 pm One of the mysteries of higher existence might be something called soul-merging or soul convergence. Imagine two souls are split from one at inception/creation (from whatever they were before that) - one half is female (Yin) & the other half is male (Yang). Two halves of a whole. They go through a set of experiences individually and then, when they are done, they literally become ONE again - they mesh or merge or converge. God (whole again) would be both Male & Female, not one or the other. We may just have an anthropomorphic model that's easy to visualize for us. Anyway, that would put a real damper on polygamy, which is one male soul to many female souls. It also lends some credence to what is termed "soul mates". Just pure speculation.
In the movie “the shack” a man is conversing with the godhead. When the man was talking to god he was talking to a woman. The man was confused that god was a woman and she (god) answered him saying something to the effect of...i wanted to speak to you and the place or condition your in now you needed a female to help you so I present myself as such.
If we are, as male and female, two halves of a whole then it does make one wonder if we were once joined. I dont think we were though based on the idea that we came here with certain gifts and talents we obtained in the preexistance as individuals, not a “whole”. But who knows, when the intelligences were gathered in the very beginning, they likely were a whole unit seperated then into each gender to make the plan work and will never be joined again to cause us to truly be worthy as two coming together in perfect harmony.
Our salvations are independant while our exaltation is dependent on a male and female joined together being equally worthy of it. Its interesting to think about and i do believe it can help us be better to our “other half” here on earth.
I completely agree. The pure unselfishness in the bonds of marriage with two becomming one is potentially the most beautiful thing one could experience. Talk about reaching your full potential! However, im not sure anyone can experience this that hasnt been exalted. Im not even sure I can comprehend it or what it really takes to do and looks like, lol. Losing ones identity to merge with another seems to go against our base workings as humans.Serragon wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 6:19 pmI think the "becoming one" with our spouse is much more literal than we currently teach/believe. Same with the becoming one with Christ.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 6:10 pmI have had these same thoughts as well.Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:28 pm One of the mysteries of higher existence might be something called soul-merging or soul convergence. Imagine two souls are split from one at inception/creation (from whatever they were before that) - one half is female (Yin) & the other half is male (Yang). Two halves of a whole. They go through a set of experiences individually and then, when they are done, they literally become ONE again - they mesh or merge or converge. God (whole again) would be both Male & Female, not one or the other. We may just have an anthropomorphic model that's easy to visualize for us. Anyway, that would put a real damper on polygamy, which is one male soul to many female souls. It also lends some credence to what is termed "soul mates". Just pure speculation.
In the movie “the shack” a man is conversing with the godhead. When the man was talking to god he was talking to a woman. The man was confused that god was a woman and she (god) answered him saying something to the effect of...i wanted to speak to you and the place or condition your in now you needed a female to help you so I present myself as such.
If we are, as male and female, two halves of a whole then it does make one wonder if we were once joined. I dont think we were though based on the idea that we came here with certain gifts and talents we obtained in the preexistance as individuals, not a “whole”. But who knows, when the intelligences were gathered in the very beginning, they likely were a whole unit seperated then into each gender to make the plan work and will never be joined again to cause us to truly be worthy as two coming together in perfect harmony.
Our salvations are independant while our exaltation is dependent on a male and female joined together being equally worthy of it. Its interesting to think about and i do believe it can help us be better to our “other half” here on earth.
When you understand the full submission of your will is the requirement for this oneness, it gives one much to ponder.
It also makes it more understandable why so many of the hosts of heaven might reject a plan that required such a sacrifice of their identity.
My understanding is that he rotated through. His wives basically lived in a dormitory and he made the rounds. He probably had a 5-10 pregnant at anyone time. Maybe he slept with a favorite wife more than once a week. Some were probably mad at him. Not sure there was anything morally wrong (relatively speaking...) with him "visiting" more than one at a time. Morality becomes kind of irrelevant at some point in such an arrangement.
Does God need to earn our love and trust?5tev3 wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 2:01 pm Anyone who wishes to be followed needs to deserve it. They need to earn it the same way God earns our love and trust, not by belittling or controlling us but by longsuffering, patience, persuasion, etc. God is not selfish, he weeps over us, he does more for us than we realize or credit him for because we are blind to most of it. He is rejected and looked upon with disdain by the world like an unruly teenager views their parents or worse. .
He who would be the greatest among you , will be the servant of all... we agree (I think!)justme wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 11:17 amI regret that I have but one like to give to this post. I would give it a thousand.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:21 amYour viewing this whole thing as power. Sorry, but your way off.[email protected] wrote: ↑February 10th, 2019, 11:09 pmWell...yes? How can Heavenly Father BE Heavenly Father if his own spouse doesn't obey him and he doesn't care? This is what I'm talking about with authority being undermined by having two co-equal individuals running a home, it makes no sense. Another way to look at it, can a company or business have two CEOs? Can a country have two Kings or two Presidents? No. The way that has always made sense to me is if the home were a company or corporation the mother would be the CEO and the father the Chairman of the Board of Directors. The CEO manages the day to day tasks and empoyees (children so to speak) of the organization but the highest authority is the Chairman of the Board. Just some of my thoughts. Also I don't believe in a matriarcy (neither did Bruce R. McConkie) in fact a patriarchy and matriarchy are mutually exclusive. One of God the other is not. Equality as we understand it today is a modern 20th and 21st century notion derived from cultural marxism as taught in our western academic institutions and reinforced in western literature and media going back to roughly the 1930s. It is not of God but I am convinced this is source of much of the "hurtful feelings" with regard to the pre-2019 Temple Endowment ceremony.
FYI, there is no patriarch without a matriarch.
Heavenly father and Heavenly mother are Gods together, he is no God without her ALSO being a God. He is not a God over her, she already has one of those and will not have 2 Gods. What your not seeing is that once people become truly one and perfected and exalted there is zero need to rule OVER someone else who has obtained this WITH you, not despite of you or because of you.
To insinuate that women are to be eternally ruled over and never be free to think or be or act on her own merit then your asking for a host of problems. Its as bad as saying women are perpetually pregnant for eternity placed in Harems of the “gods”.
I suggest you stop thinking you have an ounce of power over your wife. You are to serve her if you want to be more accurate about it, not rule over her as her father.
An excellent example of how there will be a division of the righteous and the wicked in the End Times. And who is who? Those who change the definitions and call good evil, and evil good! Look at the Liberal Socialist and the Constitutional Conservatives in our country today. You will see the very exact same thing happening there!justme wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 11:20 amI completely disagree. Dangerous post. These changes were made by those who hold the priesthood keys. It represents a new line upon our old line and takes us closer to an understanding of true doctrine. I am grateful for it and look forward to more light and knowledge.Serragon wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:59 am Enlightening posts in this thread. It is becoming clearer to me why the change was made. It seems that many sisters posting in this thread are not interested in true doctrine, but want instead a version that is more palatable to their modern sensibilities. I expect this from the feminists, but am sad to see it from the mainstream.
It seems that the propensity for Eve to be soothed by the tongue of the serpent is no less true today than it was in the garden.
Crazy to think about!Jesef wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 5:28 pm One of the mysteries of higher existence might be something called soul-merging or soul convergence. Imagine two souls are split from one at inception/creation (from whatever they were before that) - one half is female (Yin) & the other half is male (Yang). Two halves of a whole. They go through a set of experiences individually and then, when they are done, they literally become ONE again - they mesh or merge or converge. God (whole again) would be both Male & Female, not one or the other. We may just have an anthropomorphic model that's easy to visualize for us. Anyway, that would put a real damper on polygamy, which is one male soul to many female souls. It also lends some credence to what is termed "soul mates". Just pure speculation.
And then their are those who do not care either way... it does not really matter!Durzan wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 11:32 am*shrug* I simply see it as yet another policy change. It has little doctrinal implications in my book, beyond a possible loss of additional symbolism.justme wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 11:20 amI completely disagree. Dangerous post. These changes were made by those who hold the priesthood keys. It represents a new line upon our old line and takes us closer to an understanding of true doctrine. I am grateful for it and look forward to more light and knowledge.Serragon wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:59 am Enlightening posts in this thread. It is becoming clearer to me why the change was made. It seems that many sisters posting in this thread are not interested in true doctrine, but want instead a version that is more palatable to their modern sensibilities. I expect this from the feminists, but am sad to see it from the mainstream.
It seems that the propensity for Eve to be soothed by the tongue of the serpent is no less true today than it was in the garden.
Not sure who wrote about this idea, but the reason the elements and all things obey Him is because He has demonstrated that he is just. Mercy cannot rob justice, at least not forever. A wife does not need to follow an untrustworthy or unjust man into eternity. That would be unjust, but wives and husbands are called to bear injustices in this life as a test. We are commanded to forgive all men and allow the Lord to do the punishing. The reason an atonement was necessary was because justice had to be fulfilled. We can trust that God is truly just and rewards and punishes accordingly. If we couldn't trust that he was just and fair, he would not be worthy of worshiping or following.mike_rumble wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:03 pmDoes God need to earn our love and trust?5tev3 wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 2:01 pm Anyone who wishes to be followed needs to deserve it. They need to earn it the same way God earns our love and trust, not by belittling or controlling us but by longsuffering, patience, persuasion, etc. God is not selfish, he weeps over us, he does more for us than we realize or credit him for because we are blind to most of it. He is rejected and looked upon with disdain by the world like an unruly teenager views their parents or worse. .
This sounds very odd to me. Maybe I misunderstood?
I thought it took a man and his wife to be god. Your acting like a man obtains this as himself?Kingdom of ZION wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:18 pmHe who would be the greatest among you , will be the servant of all... we agree (I think!)justme wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 11:17 amI regret that I have but one like to give to this post. I would give it a thousand.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:21 amYour viewing this whole thing as power. Sorry, but your way off.[email protected] wrote: ↑February 10th, 2019, 11:09 pm
Well...yes? How can Heavenly Father BE Heavenly Father if his own spouse doesn't obey him and he doesn't care? This is what I'm talking about with authority being undermined by having two co-equal individuals running a home, it makes no sense. Another way to look at it, can a company or business have two CEOs? Can a country have two Kings or two Presidents? No. The way that has always made sense to me is if the home were a company or corporation the mother would be the CEO and the father the Chairman of the Board of Directors. The CEO manages the day to day tasks and empoyees (children so to speak) of the organization but the highest authority is the Chairman of the Board. Just some of my thoughts. Also I don't believe in a matriarcy (neither did Bruce R. McConkie) in fact a patriarchy and matriarchy are mutually exclusive. One of God the other is not. Equality as we understand it today is a modern 20th and 21st century notion derived from cultural marxism as taught in our western academic institutions and reinforced in western literature and media going back to roughly the 1930s. It is not of God but I am convinced this is source of much of the "hurtful feelings" with regard to the pre-2019 Temple Endowment ceremony.
FYI, there is no patriarch without a matriarch.
Heavenly father and Heavenly mother are Gods together, he is no God without her ALSO being a God. He is not a God over her, she already has one of those and will not have 2 Gods. What your not seeing is that once people become truly one and perfected and exalted there is zero need to rule OVER someone else who has obtained this WITH you, not despite of you or because of you.
To insinuate that women are to be eternally ruled over and never be free to think or be or act on her own merit then your asking for a host of problems. Its as bad as saying women are perpetually pregnant for eternity placed in Harems of the “gods”.
I suggest you stop thinking you have an ounce of power over your wife. You are to serve her if you want to be more accurate about it, not rule over her as her father.
But saying they are two God's co-equal, clearly He has never said such to those who profess to had heard Him, and even ever seen Him. Making that assumption is unsupported by any of the records of the words of the Messiah EVER!!!
Sure, go ahead and teach your daughters to expect their future husbands to give themselves to them when they marry, and have a veil made for their Husband's to wear on their wedding day. Because hey it's their turn to wear the pants.
Blessed are those who are persecuted in the cause of right, for theirs is the kingdom of even. The buck stops with G_d... not His wives!!!
Why yes he does, he does this by being god and everything that embodies.mike_rumble wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:03 pmDoes God need to earn our love and trust?5tev3 wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 2:01 pm Anyone who wishes to be followed needs to deserve it. They need to earn it the same way God earns our love and trust, not by belittling or controlling us but by longsuffering, patience, persuasion, etc. God is not selfish, he weeps over us, he does more for us than we realize or credit him for because we are blind to most of it. He is rejected and looked upon with disdain by the world like an unruly teenager views their parents or worse. .
This sounds very odd to me. Maybe I misunderstood?
Actually there is a Law of Opposition. Men being evil by nature (the natural man), an enemy of G_d from the beginning. Women being good by nature. Hence the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. If a women chooses to be evil, she can out do the man hands down, because she has the power of opposition. If a man who is evil by nature chooses to be perfectly good, all things obey him and He is G_d, because of this power of opposition. Priesthood is the training wheels men are given to learn how to use the power in the Priesthood. If a man is wicked, he has no power in the Priesthood. You can say women have it, but their is no way they can use it of their own accord. They can seek Adonai or the Father to administer, and by Faith all things are possible, but they in and of themselves will never posses this power. It takes up to 999 wives to help one man arrive to G_dhood. To say there would be no G_d's without women, is ABSOLUTELY TRUE... beside the need for women to create the bodies! However to say "I thought it took a man and his wife to be god." There is NO G_d's who has only one wife, worlds without end! That Law is the one thing that keeps most women out of being married to a G_d, or even making it to heaven.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 3:40 amI thought it took a man and his wife to be god. Your acting like a man obtains this as himself?Kingdom of ZION wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:18 pmHe who would be the greatest among you , will be the servant of all... we agree (I think!)justme wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 11:17 amI regret that I have but one like to give to this post. I would give it a thousand.MMbelieve wrote: ↑February 11th, 2019, 10:21 am
Your viewing this whole thing as power. Sorry, but your way off.
FYI, there is no patriarch without a matriarch.
Heavenly father and Heavenly mother are Gods together, he is no God without her ALSO being a God. He is not a God over her, she already has one of those and will not have 2 Gods. What your not seeing is that once people become truly one and perfected and exalted there is zero need to rule OVER someone else who has obtained this WITH you, not despite of you or because of you.
To insinuate that women are to be eternally ruled over and never be free to think or be or act on her own merit then your asking for a host of problems. Its as bad as saying women are perpetually pregnant for eternity placed in Harems of the “gods”.
I suggest you stop thinking you have an ounce of power over your wife. You are to serve her if you want to be more accurate about it, not rule over her as her father.
But saying they are two God's co-equal, clearly He has never said such to those who profess to had heard Him, and even ever seen Him. Making that assumption is unsupported by any of the records of the words of the Messiah EVER!!!
Sure, go ahead and teach your daughters to expect their future husbands to give themselves to them when they marry, and have a veil made for their Husband's to wear on their wedding day. Because hey it's their turn to wear the pants.
Blessed are those who are persecuted in the cause of right, for theirs is the kingdom of even. The buck stops with G_d... not His wives!!!
Teach our daughters that they wear the pants and their husband will be veiled....? Where does this crazy idea come from? It seems only men ever mention things like this.
I think you underestimate the influence women have had in the ears of all men from the beginning. No man can do it alone and never has been able to. My husband can represent us in heaven as he does here, but I will not be a casual participant in heaven - considering I am able to be there.
There are save two churches only, the Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil. Not all those in the CoJCoLDS are a part of the church of the Lamb of God, some are a part of the church of the Devil, also, some outside of the colloquial "church" are a part of the Church of the Lamb of God and many are a part of the Church of the Devil.