Mormon 8:38 and apostasy

[Mark]

I appreciate the tone of this most recent interchange above. Thanks to those involved.
You could help me gain greater understanding of your points if you would go one step further and answer a couple other questions.
As I read your posts, a couple of thoughts come to mind. The statement from the Lord that the "church was under condemnation" was given in the 84th section of the DC. After that time, God said "God is not pleased with some in the church.", "the lord commands the church to gather", "prepare the church for the redemption of Zion", "scriptures are published to build up the church", "Presidency is upheld by the confidence, faith and prayers of the church", "the Twelve build up and regulate the church in all nations", "duty of the President of the High Priesthood to preside over the whole church", and I could go on and on.
It seems that even thought the whole church was put under condemnation, they were not put away, it remained The Church of Jesus Christ.
So we then have the transition from Joseph to Brigham as the "President of the High Priesthood.
Do you think the keys remained active and viable in the Church of Jesus Christ with Brigham at the head?
And, if you do, did they continue after that?

I would make an observation about your comments. They seem to imply that "The Church" is made up of the whole of its members, or that The Church as an organization, with keys and priesthood, has fallen. Which of these is true, or if you don't agree with either, what is the reality in that regard according to your opinion.

To give you better insight into my thoughts, I’ll give you
Some background info.

Among the Presidents that followed Joseph’s death, it appears that the “transfiguration” of Brigham Young did not happen, at least the sources saying such a thing happened would never be accepted by any legitimate historian if we were discussing any other topic. The “succession crisis” boiled down to the remaining leaders reasoning among themselves util they settled with Brigham as the President once more.

Continuing on the succession over the years, it doesn’t appear every President was set apart for their calling. For years their belief was apparently that they were already set apart when they became Apostles and it would be redundant to do so upon becoming President of the Church. Then a couple of them were set apart, apparently they thought it necessary, but then another one wasn’t set apart again.( I can give more details if you want, I’m just giving you the general idea) .

In addition to that, they did not know who would become the next President. It most certainly was not the “most senior Apostle”. The rule they abided by changed many times. The brethren had debates about it, they comment about the topic in their journals, there was no revelation telling them to just go with the Senior Apostle. Eventually they decided on that and it became the precedent .( After John Taylor I believe). I’m not sure if you want sources or
Not, I just don’t want to derail the thread into something else .

Now, given all that, I need to make it clear that I think God does not always operate in black and white . I think he can give anybody power anytime anywhere.
I don’t think it would really matter if they didn’t set someone apart if God truly did call a man and bless him to be his Prophet.

The thing that might annoy some people is that I really haven’t come to any solid conclusion.
I think that the polygamy they practiced was an abomination that did not please God, it’s my opinion that they have operated largely without the type of Revelation that I used to think they receive(and what most members assume as well).

I don’t know if they were all called of God, I don’t know if a portion of them were called of God. I hope they were.

I think it’s probable that even in the event that God was displeased with all of them that the keys could have carried on, allowing them to still push the church forward. That would mean that even if all of the church Presidents weren’t “true Prophets” in the sense that Joseph was a prophet, they still had the proper keys to operate.

This probably sounds like nonsense to you, but as I have never come to a conclusion on what I believe has happened with keys, I can only offer you the things going through my mind on the topic.

If I go down the other route, and assume that all is dandy, they were all called of God and the keys absolutely remain no question, then I’m left to ponder on why we have an extremely watered down version of the Gospel we see in the scriptures and in Joseph’s time. This path delves into other paths like Priesthood power, manifestations of the Holy Ghost, revelations and the lack thereof. Again, I don’t want to derail the thread, but to me it’s obvious that these things are lacking in our church(in my own life as well, with the exception of some periods in my life).

Hence why I don’t really know how to give a straight answer to your question. I hope this wall of text gives you insight .

I guess again, it depends on what “fallen” means. Condemned but not cast off and burned?
Whether or not you believe the church is no longer under condemnation, we know there was at least a period where the church was under condemnation. Was the church “fallen” during that time? What was it’s status? I don’t know.

Truth be told, this topic isn’t extraordinarily important to me. I’ve spent most of my past 2 years reading and rereading the same verses in the Book of Mormon, studying a single topic(The Doctrine of Christ) and it’s really the only topic I’m passionate about because it’s the only topic I can say I DO KNOW, everything else I have received no answers or explanations from God . My Anchor is Christ, and the answer to everything we are discussing wouldn’t rattle my anchor in any way, hence why I just don’t have a passion for it.

Edit: List of scriptures I referenced that I prefer to spend time on.

a. Mosiah 4:2-12,
b. Mosiah 5:1-9
c. Alma 36:1-26
d. Helaman 5:35-45
e. 3 Nephi 11:31-40
f. 3 Nephi 19: 8-30
g. Enos 1:2-12
h. 2 Nephi 31:5-21
i. 2 Nephi 32:1-7
j. Moroni 7:35-48
k. Moroni 10:8-33
l. 1 Nephi 2:16
m. Alma 5:6-49
n. Alma 18:41 - Alma 19:1-29
o. Alma 22:14-23
p. Moses 6:64-68
q. Acts 2:1-5

I follow somewhat along Stahura's way of thinking. It wasn't until about a year ago I began to really read the scriptures, not only read them, but prayed for understanding as I've read them, moreover humbling myself and striving for a broken heart and contrite spirit while I read them. As I have read and begun to believe in the scriptures I have noticed some things don't line up. The words really are delicious and sweet. They are filling to the soul! As an aside, when I speak my goal isn't to draw people away from the President of the Church or to have people lose their testimony. I have the view that if it draws you closer to the Savior do it! As Stahura said, the Doctrine of Christ is the MOST important thing and for me, I've noticed that too often it's teachings are woefully absent or misunderstood in local wards and areas - and I have along with the other scriptures he mentioined, teaches us how we are to live our lives. It teaches us what we are supposed to do and it taught me what I haven't done. My words are only to warn us to repent. I still attend my meetings, I still testify of Christ and hold callings. I don't run around telling people not to listen to the President of the Church, but I do teach them the words of Christ, for they are sweet.

I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created. We as a people are living in iniquity. There is no way around that. We have become like unto the Jews of old where we beleive that the ordinances themselves save us. I don't condemn anyone for these views, I had them my entire life until recently. Truly reading the doctrine of Christ teaches us there is so much more. Baptism is more than just the ordinance, it requires an actual chagne of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost is not something that is automatically given just because someone lays their hands on your head - there is much more required. All these truths are found in the scriptures. Almost every single book in the Book of Mormon teaches us how to seek God. They give examples. The scriptures are plain, but until I submitted to the Lord in all things(a requirement found in the doctrine of CHrist) I was blind to the plainness of the scriptures and the scales of darkness have slowly fallen from my mind. Even now I struggle because of traditions of men. I am constantly wanting to seek out men to learn about God, rather than me realizing that if I want to learn about God, I can ask Him directly. That is what is so powerful about the scriptures, that is what is so powerful about the Doctrine of Christ, we are to do ALL things the Spirit tells us to do, we must constantly submit and give up everything we want and let go of preconceived notions and then the Lord guides us as we ask. Every question I have when I seek after man's interpretation - the thought of "have ye inquired of the Lord" often comes to mind. If I haven't how iniquitous am I? I am like Laman and Lemuel. Anyways, like I said, I don't want to drive anyone from the church or make them lose their faith in Christ, I want them to make Christ the center of their lives and if they do, they will rejoice and find peace even in the midst of turmoil. He is mighty to save and only asks that we come unto Him, not to others. Others are merely meant to teach us to come unto Him - in all things.

"I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created"

This is where you appear to be going totally contrary to myriads of revelation both written and spoken that testify the essential Priesthood keys will in fact continue unabated to be held by the presiding President of the High Priesthood and those presiding Quorums of the church so designated until that time when Adam will return to bestow those rightful presiding keys back to the Savior in preparation for His millenial reign. The church will continue to to be beneficiaries of those Priesthood keys uninterrupted until that time. Many members will fall but those Priesthood keys will remain intact with those holding those necessary Priesthood offices. Am I understanding you correctly that you feel the Lord is telling you otherwise?

[John Tavner]

I appreciate the tone of this most recent interchange above. Thanks to those involved.
You could help me gain greater understanding of your points if you would go one step further and answer a couple other questions.
As I read your posts, a couple of thoughts come to mind. The statement from the Lord that the "church was under condemnation" was given in the 84th section of the DC. After that time, God said "God is not pleased with some in the church.", "the lord commands the church to gather", "prepare the church for the redemption of Zion", "scriptures are published to build up the church", "Presidency is upheld by the confidence, faith and prayers of the church", "the Twelve build up and regulate the church in all nations", "duty of the President of the High Priesthood to preside over the whole church", and I could go on and on.
It seems that even thought the whole church was put under condemnation, they were not put away, it remained The Church of Jesus Christ.
So we then have the transition from Joseph to Brigham as the "President of the High Priesthood.
Do you think the keys remained active and viable in the Church of Jesus Christ with Brigham at the head?
And, if you do, did they continue after that?

I would make an observation about your comments. They seem to imply that "The Church" is made up of the whole of its members, or that The Church as an organization, with keys and priesthood, has fallen. Which of these is true, or if you don't agree with either, what is the reality in that regard according to your opinion.

To give you better insight into my thoughts, I’ll give you
Some background info.

Among the Presidents that followed Joseph’s death, it appears that the “transfiguration” of Brigham Young did not happen, at least the sources saying such a thing happened would never be accepted by any legitimate historian if we were discussing any other topic. The “succession crisis” boiled down to the remaining leaders reasoning among themselves util they settled with Brigham as the President once more.

Continuing on the succession over the years, it doesn’t appear every President was set apart for their calling. For years their belief was apparently that they were already set apart when they became Apostles and it would be redundant to do so upon becoming President of the Church. Then a couple of them were set apart, apparently they thought it necessary, but then another one wasn’t set apart again.( I can give more details if you want, I’m just giving you the general idea) .

In addition to that, they did not know who would become the next President. It most certainly was not the “most senior Apostle”. The rule they abided by changed many times. The brethren had debates about it, they comment about the topic in their journals, there was no revelation telling them to just go with the Senior Apostle. Eventually they decided on that and it became the precedent .( After John Taylor I believe). I’m not sure if you want sources or
Not, I just don’t want to derail the thread into something else .

Now, given all that, I need to make it clear that I think God does not always operate in black and white . I think he can give anybody power anytime anywhere.
I don’t think it would really matter if they didn’t set someone apart if God truly did call a man and bless him to be his Prophet.

The thing that might annoy some people is that I really haven’t come to any solid conclusion.
I think that the polygamy they practiced was an abomination that did not please God, it’s my opinion that they have operated largely without the type of Revelation that I used to think they receive(and what most members assume as well).

I don’t know if they were all called of God, I don’t know if a portion of them were called of God. I hope they were.

I think it’s probable that even in the event that God was displeased with all of them that the keys could have carried on, allowing them to still push the church forward. That would mean that even if all of the church Presidents weren’t “true Prophets” in the sense that Joseph was a prophet, they still had the proper keys to operate.

This probably sounds like nonsense to you, but as I have never come to a conclusion on what I believe has happened with keys, I can only offer you the things going through my mind on the topic.

If I go down the other route, and assume that all is dandy, they were all called of God and the keys absolutely remain no question, then I’m left to ponder on why we have an extremely watered down version of the Gospel we see in the scriptures and in Joseph’s time. This path delves into other paths like Priesthood power, manifestations of the Holy Ghost, revelations and the lack thereof. Again, I don’t want to derail the thread, but to me it’s obvious that these things are lacking in our church(in my own life as well, with the exception of some periods in my life).

Hence why I don’t really know how to give a straight answer to your question. I hope this wall of text gives you insight .

I guess again, it depends on what “fallen” means. Condemned but not cast off and burned?
Whether or not you believe the church is no longer under condemnation, we know there was at least a period where the church was under condemnation. Was the church “fallen” during that time? What was it’s status? I don’t know.

Truth be told, this topic isn’t extraordinarily important to me. I’ve spent most of my past 2 years reading and rereading the same verses in the Book of Mormon, studying a single topic(The Doctrine of Christ) and it’s really the only topic I’m passionate about because it’s the only topic I can say I DO KNOW, everything else I have received no answers or explanations from God . My Anchor is Christ, and the answer to everything we are discussing wouldn’t rattle my anchor in any way, hence why I just don’t have a passion for it.

Edit: List of scriptures I referenced that I prefer to spend time on.

a. Mosiah 4:2-12,
b. Mosiah 5:1-9
c. Alma 36:1-26
d. Helaman 5:35-45
e. 3 Nephi 11:31-40
f. 3 Nephi 19: 8-30
g. Enos 1:2-12
h. 2 Nephi 31:5-21
i. 2 Nephi 32:1-7
j. Moroni 7:35-48
k. Moroni 10:8-33
l. 1 Nephi 2:16
m. Alma 5:6-49
n. Alma 18:41 - Alma 19:1-29
o. Alma 22:14-23
p. Moses 6:64-68
q. Acts 2:1-5

I follow somewhat along Stahura's way of thinking. It wasn't until about a year ago I began to really read the scriptures, not only read them, but prayed for understanding as I've read them, moreover humbling myself and striving for a broken heart and contrite spirit while I read them. As I have read and begun to believe in the scriptures I have noticed some things don't line up. The words really are delicious and sweet. They are filling to the soul! As an aside, when I speak my goal isn't to draw people away from the President of the Church or to have people lose their testimony. I have the view that if it draws you closer to the Savior do it! As Stahura said, the Doctrine of Christ is the MOST important thing and for me, I've noticed that too often it's teachings are woefully absent or misunderstood in local wards and areas - and I have along with the other scriptures he mentioined, teaches us how we are to live our lives. It teaches us what we are supposed to do and it taught me what I haven't done. My words are only to warn us to repent. I still attend my meetings, I still testify of Christ and hold callings. I don't run around telling people not to listen to the President of the Church, but I do teach them the words of Christ, for they are sweet.

I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created. We as a people are living in iniquity. There is no way around that. We have become like unto the Jews of old where we beleive that the ordinances themselves save us. I don't condemn anyone for these views, I had them my entire life until recently. Truly reading the doctrine of Christ teaches us there is so much more. Baptism is more than just the ordinance, it requires an actual chagne of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost is not something that is automatically given just because someone lays their hands on your head - there is much more required. All these truths are found in the scriptures. Almost every single book in the Book of Mormon teaches us how to seek God. They give examples. The scriptures are plain, but until I submitted to the Lord in all things(a requirement found in the doctrine of CHrist) I was blind to the plainness of the scriptures and the scales of darkness have slowly fallen from my mind. Even now I struggle because of traditions of men. I am constantly wanting to seek out men to learn about God, rather than me realizing that if I want to learn about God, I can ask Him directly. That is what is so powerful about the scriptures, that is what is so powerful about the Doctrine of Christ, we are to do ALL things the Spirit tells us to do, we must constantly submit and give up everything we want and let go of preconceived notions and then the Lord guides us as we ask. Every question I have when I seek after man's interpretation - the thought of "have ye inquired of the Lord" often comes to mind. If I haven't how iniquitous am I? I am like Laman and Lemuel. Anyways, like I said, I don't want to drive anyone from the church or make them lose their faith in Christ, I want them to make Christ the center of their lives and if they do, they will rejoice and find peace even in the midst of turmoil. He is mighty to save and only asks that we come unto Him, not to others. Others are merely meant to teach us to come unto Him - in all things.

"I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created"

This is where you appear to be going totally contrary to myriads of revelation both written and spoken that testify the essential Priesthood keys will in fact continue unabated to be held by the presiding President of the High Priesthood and those presiding Quorums of the church so designated until that time when Adam will return to bestow those rightful presiding keys back to the Savior in preparation for His millenial reign. The church will continue to to be beneficiaries of those Priesthood keys uninterrupted until that time. Many members will fall but those Priesthood keys will remain intact with those holding those necessary Priesthood offices. Am I understanding you correctly that you feel the Lord is telling you otherwise?

I think you are misquoting D&C 13 where it states that :1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. Moreover, I said nothing about keys being removed from the earth did I? I stated that the church organization as it now stands will not exist. It can not. You can pray and ponder over what that means, and you can disbelieve it, but you will find that it comes to pass. We are just now seeing the first fruits of that and it will increse exponentially over this year and the next and the one after that - eat your vitamin pills. Additionally, even if you still don't want to believe that, despite the fact that the scriptures literally tell us that over and over again, you can believe the rest, because the rest of what I speak is also truth. My mouth is shut on this topic for now. In th end it doesn't matter what I believe, or even know to be true. All that matters is that you and I turn our hearts towards CHrist and learn His doctrine. So curse me, scream at me, call me foul names and tell me I am apostate. All I ask and beg you and all of us to do is to put Christ first, to cast off the yoke of sin and put upon us the yoke of Christ. Turn our hearts towards him. Think of Him first thing in the morning, and give praise unto Him at night. Keep a prayer in our hearts during all our labors keeping our eye single to His glory so that we might be filled with light. Ask for grace to love Him more than we love our material possessions or even people around us. Ask that we might reject the idols to whom we so often worship, that we might no longer trust in the arm of Flesh, but seek His will in all things (a part of the the doctrine of Christ). That is what is important. He will guide you as long as you are willing to cling to the Iron Rod, which is the word of God, which as Nephi describes is the tongue of angels, which is the word's of Christ, which is the Holy Ghost. Do all things that the Holy Ghost tells us and we will rejoice and partake of that fruit that is desirable above all other fruit. Good luck.

[Mark]

To give you better insight into my thoughts, I’ll give you
Some background info.

Among the Presidents that followed Joseph’s death, it appears that the “transfiguration” of Brigham Young did not happen, at least the sources saying such a thing happened would never be accepted by any legitimate historian if we were discussing any other topic. The “succession crisis” boiled down to the remaining leaders reasoning among themselves util they settled with Brigham as the President once more.

Continuing on the succession over the years, it doesn’t appear every President was set apart for their calling. For years their belief was apparently that they were already set apart when they became Apostles and it would be redundant to do so upon becoming President of the Church. Then a couple of them were set apart, apparently they thought it necessary, but then another one wasn’t set apart again.( I can give more details if you want, I’m just giving you the general idea) .

In addition to that, they did not know who would become the next President. It most certainly was not the “most senior Apostle”. The rule they abided by changed many times. The brethren had debates about it, they comment about the topic in their journals, there was no revelation telling them to just go with the Senior Apostle. Eventually they decided on that and it became the precedent .( After John Taylor I believe). I’m not sure if you want sources or
Not, I just don’t want to derail the thread into something else .

Now, given all that, I need to make it clear that I think God does not always operate in black and white . I think he can give anybody power anytime anywhere.
I don’t think it would really matter if they didn’t set someone apart if God truly did call a man and bless him to be his Prophet.

The thing that might annoy some people is that I really haven’t come to any solid conclusion.
I think that the polygamy they practiced was an abomination that did not please God, it’s my opinion that they have operated largely without the type of Revelation that I used to think they receive(and what most members assume as well).

I don’t know if they were all called of God, I don’t know if a portion of them were called of God. I hope they were.

I think it’s probable that even in the event that God was displeased with all of them that the keys could have carried on, allowing them to still push the church forward. That would mean that even if all of the church Presidents weren’t “true Prophets” in the sense that Joseph was a prophet, they still had the proper keys to operate.

This probably sounds like nonsense to you, but as I have never come to a conclusion on what I believe has happened with keys, I can only offer you the things going through my mind on the topic.

If I go down the other route, and assume that all is dandy, they were all called of God and the keys absolutely remain no question, then I’m left to ponder on why we have an extremely watered down version of the Gospel we see in the scriptures and in Joseph’s time. This path delves into other paths like Priesthood power, manifestations of the Holy Ghost, revelations and the lack thereof. Again, I don’t want to derail the thread, but to me it’s obvious that these things are lacking in our church(in my own life as well, with the exception of some periods in my life).

Hence why I don’t really know how to give a straight answer to your question. I hope this wall of text gives you insight .

I guess again, it depends on what “fallen” means. Condemned but not cast off and burned?
Whether or not you believe the church is no longer under condemnation, we know there was at least a period where the church was under condemnation. Was the church “fallen” during that time? What was it’s status? I don’t know.

Truth be told, this topic isn’t extraordinarily important to me. I’ve spent most of my past 2 years reading and rereading the same verses in the Book of Mormon, studying a single topic(The Doctrine of Christ) and it’s really the only topic I’m passionate about because it’s the only topic I can say I DO KNOW, everything else I have received no answers or explanations from God . My Anchor is Christ, and the answer to everything we are discussing wouldn’t rattle my anchor in any way, hence why I just don’t have a passion for it.

Edit: List of scriptures I referenced that I prefer to spend time on.

a. Mosiah 4:2-12,
b. Mosiah 5:1-9
c. Alma 36:1-26
d. Helaman 5:35-45
e. 3 Nephi 11:31-40
f. 3 Nephi 19: 8-30
g. Enos 1:2-12
h. 2 Nephi 31:5-21
i. 2 Nephi 32:1-7
j. Moroni 7:35-48
k. Moroni 10:8-33
l. 1 Nephi 2:16
m. Alma 5:6-49
n. Alma 18:41 - Alma 19:1-29
o. Alma 22:14-23
p. Moses 6:64-68
q. Acts 2:1-5

I follow somewhat along Stahura's way of thinking. It wasn't until about a year ago I began to really read the scriptures, not only read them, but prayed for understanding as I've read them, moreover humbling myself and striving for a broken heart and contrite spirit while I read them. As I have read and begun to believe in the scriptures I have noticed some things don't line up. The words really are delicious and sweet. They are filling to the soul! As an aside, when I speak my goal isn't to draw people away from the President of the Church or to have people lose their testimony. I have the view that if it draws you closer to the Savior do it! As Stahura said, the Doctrine of Christ is the MOST important thing and for me, I've noticed that too often it's teachings are woefully absent or misunderstood in local wards and areas - and I have along with the other scriptures he mentioined, teaches us how we are to live our lives. It teaches us what we are supposed to do and it taught me what I haven't done. My words are only to warn us to repent. I still attend my meetings, I still testify of Christ and hold callings. I don't run around telling people not to listen to the President of the Church, but I do teach them the words of Christ, for they are sweet.

I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created. We as a people are living in iniquity. There is no way around that. We have become like unto the Jews of old where we beleive that the ordinances themselves save us. I don't condemn anyone for these views, I had them my entire life until recently. Truly reading the doctrine of Christ teaches us there is so much more. Baptism is more than just the ordinance, it requires an actual chagne of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost is not something that is automatically given just because someone lays their hands on your head - there is much more required. All these truths are found in the scriptures. Almost every single book in the Book of Mormon teaches us how to seek God. They give examples. The scriptures are plain, but until I submitted to the Lord in all things(a requirement found in the doctrine of CHrist) I was blind to the plainness of the scriptures and the scales of darkness have slowly fallen from my mind. Even now I struggle because of traditions of men. I am constantly wanting to seek out men to learn about God, rather than me realizing that if I want to learn about God, I can ask Him directly. That is what is so powerful about the scriptures, that is what is so powerful about the Doctrine of Christ, we are to do ALL things the Spirit tells us to do, we must constantly submit and give up everything we want and let go of preconceived notions and then the Lord guides us as we ask. Every question I have when I seek after man's interpretation - the thought of "have ye inquired of the Lord" often comes to mind. If I haven't how iniquitous am I? I am like Laman and Lemuel. Anyways, like I said, I don't want to drive anyone from the church or make them lose their faith in Christ, I want them to make Christ the center of their lives and if they do, they will rejoice and find peace even in the midst of turmoil. He is mighty to save and only asks that we come unto Him, not to others. Others are merely meant to teach us to come unto Him - in all things.

"I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created"

This is where you appear to be going totally contrary to myriads of revelation both written and spoken that testify the essential Priesthood keys will in fact continue unabated to be held by the presiding President of the High Priesthood and those presiding Quorums of the church so designated until that time when Adam will return to bestow those rightful presiding keys back to the Savior in preparation for His millenial reign. The church will continue to to be beneficiaries of those Priesthood keys uninterrupted until that time. Many members will fall but those Priesthood keys will remain intact with those holding those necessary Priesthood offices. Am I understanding you correctly that you feel the Lord is telling you otherwise?

I think you are misquoting D&C 13 where it states that :1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. Moreover, I said nothing about keys being removed from the earth did I? I stated that the church organization as it now stands will not exist. It can not. You can pray and ponder over what that means, and you can disbelieve it, but you will find that it comes to pass. We are just now seeing the first fruits of that and it will increse exponentially over this year and the next and the one after that - eat your vitamin pills. Additionally, even if you still don't want to believe that, despite the fact that the scriptures literally tell us that over and over again, you can believe the rest, because the rest of what I speak is also truth. My mouth is shut on this topic for now. In th end it doesn't matter what I believe, or even know to be true. All that matters is that you and I turn our hearts towards CHrist and learn His doctrine. So curse me, scream at me, call me foul names and tell me I am apostate. All I ask and beg you and all of us to do is to put Christ first, to cast off the yoke of sin and put upon us the yoke of Christ. Turn our hearts towards him. Think of Him first thing in the morning, and give praise unto Him at night. Keep a prayer in our hearts during all our labors keeping our eye single to His glory so that we might be filled with light. Ask for grace to love Him more than we love our material possessions or even people around us. Ask that we might reject the idols to whom we so often worship, that we might no longer trust in the arm of Flesh, but seek His will in all things (a part of the the doctrine of Christ). That is what is important. He will guide you as long as you are willing to cling to the Iron Rod, which is the word of God, which as Nephi describes is the tongue of angels, which is the word's of Christ, which is the Holy Ghost. Do all things that the Holy Ghost tells us and we will rejoice and partake of that fruit that is desirable above all other fruit. Good luck.

Calm down mate. I'm not cursing you, screaming at you, calling you foul names, or condemning you to hell. Just trying to figure out your angle on this. You obviously don't want to expound so whatever. Time will tell if whatever you are referring to comes to pass. Only you will know that.

[John Tavner]

I follow somewhat along Stahura's way of thinking. It wasn't until about a year ago I began to really read the scriptures, not only read them, but prayed for understanding as I've read them, moreover humbling myself and striving for a broken heart and contrite spirit while I read them. As I have read and begun to believe in the scriptures I have noticed some things don't line up. The words really are delicious and sweet. They are filling to the soul! As an aside, when I speak my goal isn't to draw people away from the President of the Church or to have people lose their testimony. I have the view that if it draws you closer to the Savior do it! As Stahura said, the Doctrine of Christ is the MOST important thing and for me, I've noticed that too often it's teachings are woefully absent or misunderstood in local wards and areas - and I have along with the other scriptures he mentioined, teaches us how we are to live our lives. It teaches us what we are supposed to do and it taught me what I haven't done. My words are only to warn us to repent. I still attend my meetings, I still testify of Christ and hold callings. I don't run around telling people not to listen to the President of the Church, but I do teach them the words of Christ, for they are sweet.

I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created. We as a people are living in iniquity. There is no way around that. We have become like unto the Jews of old where we beleive that the ordinances themselves save us. I don't condemn anyone for these views, I had them my entire life until recently. Truly reading the doctrine of Christ teaches us there is so much more. Baptism is more than just the ordinance, it requires an actual chagne of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost is not something that is automatically given just because someone lays their hands on your head - there is much more required. All these truths are found in the scriptures. Almost every single book in the Book of Mormon teaches us how to seek God. They give examples. The scriptures are plain, but until I submitted to the Lord in all things(a requirement found in the doctrine of CHrist) I was blind to the plainness of the scriptures and the scales of darkness have slowly fallen from my mind. Even now I struggle because of traditions of men. I am constantly wanting to seek out men to learn about God, rather than me realizing that if I want to learn about God, I can ask Him directly. That is what is so powerful about the scriptures, that is what is so powerful about the Doctrine of Christ, we are to do ALL things the Spirit tells us to do, we must constantly submit and give up everything we want and let go of preconceived notions and then the Lord guides us as we ask. Every question I have when I seek after man's interpretation - the thought of "have ye inquired of the Lord" often comes to mind. If I haven't how iniquitous am I? I am like Laman and Lemuel. Anyways, like I said, I don't want to drive anyone from the church or make them lose their faith in Christ, I want them to make Christ the center of their lives and if they do, they will rejoice and find peace even in the midst of turmoil. He is mighty to save and only asks that we come unto Him, not to others. Others are merely meant to teach us to come unto Him - in all things.

"I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created"

This is where you appear to be going totally contrary to myriads of revelation both written and spoken that testify the essential Priesthood keys will in fact continue unabated to be held by the presiding President of the High Priesthood and those presiding Quorums of the church so designated until that time when Adam will return to bestow those rightful presiding keys back to the Savior in preparation for His millenial reign. The church will continue to to be beneficiaries of those Priesthood keys uninterrupted until that time. Many members will fall but those Priesthood keys will remain intact with those holding those necessary Priesthood offices. Am I understanding you correctly that you feel the Lord is telling you otherwise?

I think you are misquoting D&C 13 where it states that :1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. Moreover, I said nothing about keys being removed from the earth did I? I stated that the church organization as it now stands will not exist. It can not. You can pray and ponder over what that means, and you can disbelieve it, but you will find that it comes to pass. We are just now seeing the first fruits of that and it will increse exponentially over this year and the next and the one after that - eat your vitamin pills. Additionally, even if you still don't want to believe that, despite the fact that the scriptures literally tell us that over and over again, you can believe the rest, because the rest of what I speak is also truth. My mouth is shut on this topic for now. In th end it doesn't matter what I believe, or even know to be true. All that matters is that you and I turn our hearts towards CHrist and learn His doctrine. So curse me, scream at me, call me foul names and tell me I am apostate. All I ask and beg you and all of us to do is to put Christ first, to cast off the yoke of sin and put upon us the yoke of Christ. Turn our hearts towards him. Think of Him first thing in the morning, and give praise unto Him at night. Keep a prayer in our hearts during all our labors keeping our eye single to His glory so that we might be filled with light. Ask for grace to love Him more than we love our material possessions or even people around us. Ask that we might reject the idols to whom we so often worship, that we might no longer trust in the arm of Flesh, but seek His will in all things (a part of the the doctrine of Christ). That is what is important. He will guide you as long as you are willing to cling to the Iron Rod, which is the word of God, which as Nephi describes is the tongue of angels, which is the word's of Christ, which is the Holy Ghost. Do all things that the Holy Ghost tells us and we will rejoice and partake of that fruit that is desirable above all other fruit. Good luck.

Calm down mate. I'm not cursing you, screaming at you, calling you foul names, or condemning you to hell. Just trying to figure out your angle on this. You obviously don't want to expound so whatever. Time will tell if whatever you are referring to comes to pass. Only you will know that.

Oh, you really misunderstood my tone if you thought I was angry. I am not riled up or frustrated in the slightest - a little passionate yes, but for the doctrine of Christ. I can't expound more because I'm not allowed to. If I came off as angry or like a self-martyr it was the exact opposite tone I wanted to express. I apologize if it brought you consternation or to feel angry or frustrated at me for appearing to be that way. I suppose that is just the weakness in writing. I was just stating that you could do those things and it wouldn't matter to me, all I care about is that you/we seek Christ first not what happens to me or what you say about me. I really sincerely hold you no ill will and only seek your eternal welfare. God bless.

[Mark]

"I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created"

This is where you appear to be going totally contrary to myriads of revelation both written and spoken that testify the essential Priesthood keys will in fact continue unabated to be held by the presiding President of the High Priesthood and those presiding Quorums of the church so designated until that time when Adam will return to bestow those rightful presiding keys back to the Savior in preparation for His millenial reign. The church will continue to to be beneficiaries of those Priesthood keys uninterrupted until that time. Many members will fall but those Priesthood keys will remain intact with those holding those necessary Priesthood offices. Am I understanding you correctly that you feel the Lord is telling you otherwise?

I think you are misquoting D&C 13 where it states that :1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. Moreover, I said nothing about keys being removed from the earth did I? I stated that the church organization as it now stands will not exist. It can not. You can pray and ponder over what that means, and you can disbelieve it, but you will find that it comes to pass. We are just now seeing the first fruits of that and it will increse exponentially over this year and the next and the one after that - eat your vitamin pills. Additionally, even if you still don't want to believe that, despite the fact that the scriptures literally tell us that over and over again, you can believe the rest, because the rest of what I speak is also truth. My mouth is shut on this topic for now. In th end it doesn't matter what I believe, or even know to be true. All that matters is that you and I turn our hearts towards CHrist and learn His doctrine. So curse me, scream at me, call me foul names and tell me I am apostate. All I ask and beg you and all of us to do is to put Christ first, to cast off the yoke of sin and put upon us the yoke of Christ. Turn our hearts towards him. Think of Him first thing in the morning, and give praise unto Him at night. Keep a prayer in our hearts during all our labors keeping our eye single to His glory so that we might be filled with light. Ask for grace to love Him more than we love our material possessions or even people around us. Ask that we might reject the idols to whom we so often worship, that we might no longer trust in the arm of Flesh, but seek His will in all things (a part of the the doctrine of Christ). That is what is important. He will guide you as long as you are willing to cling to the Iron Rod, which is the word of God, which as Nephi describes is the tongue of angels, which is the word's of Christ, which is the Holy Ghost. Do all things that the Holy Ghost tells us and we will rejoice and partake of that fruit that is desirable above all other fruit. Good luck.

Calm down mate. I'm not cursing you, screaming at you, calling you foul names, or condemning you to hell. Just trying to figure out your angle on this. You obviously don't want to expound so whatever. Time will tell if whatever you are referring to comes to pass. Only you will know that.

Oh, you really misunderstood my tone if you thought I was angry. I am not riled up or frustrated in the slightest - a little passionate yes, but for the doctrine of Christ. I can't expound more because I'm not allowed to. If I came off as angry or like a self-martyr it was the exact opposite tone I wanted to express. I apologize if it brought you consternation or to feel angry or frustrated at me for appearing to be that way. I suppose that is just the weakness in writing. I was just stating that you could do those things and it wouldn't matter to me, all I care about is that you/we seek Christ first not what happens to me or what you say about me. I really sincerely hold you no ill will and only seek your eternal welfare. God bless.

No big deal. Just didn't want to ruin your weekend. I surely do agree with you about developing our relationship with the Savior. Cheers mate.

[I AM]

Our exclusive Priesthood rights to end.

The Lord told Joseph Smith that His Restored Priesthood would
"remain through you and your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began."
D&C 86:10
He also said we held our Priesthood jointly with those who held Dispensation Keys before us.
D&C 112: 30 -33
30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

31 Which power you hold, in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation;

32 For verily I say unto you, the keys of the dispensation, which ye have received, have come down from the fathers, and last of all, being sent down from heaven unto you.

To Joseph Smith was given the keys of this dispensation, BUT NEVER
did he receive the presiding "keys of this ministry" of the Gospel or
"keys of the kingdom of God" of ALL dispensations from
A.D.30 to Christ's Second Coming.
These keys are held by Peter, James, and John.
Futhermore inasmuch as Peter and James have passed through
and beyond the invisible veil, it places John – the Davidic servant,
as the only one holding these certain presiding keys in the flesh.

D&C 7

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

D&C 27

12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;

13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;

Our exclusive right to this Priesthood will therefore terminate at the return of
The lord’s end-time servant.
John the beloved - the Davidic king - the marred servant
and others.

[cab]

I appreciate the tone of this most recent interchange above. Thanks to those involved.
You could help me gain greater understanding of your points if you would go one step further and answer a couple other questions.
As I read your posts, a couple of thoughts come to mind. The statement from the Lord that the "church was under condemnation" was given in the 84th section of the DC. After that time, God said "God is not pleased with some in the church.", "the lord commands the church to gather", "prepare the church for the redemption of Zion", "scriptures are published to build up the church", "Presidency is upheld by the confidence, faith and prayers of the church", "the Twelve build up and regulate the church in all nations", "duty of the President of the High Priesthood to preside over the whole church", and I could go on and on.
It seems that even thought the whole church was put under condemnation, they were not put away, it remained The Church of Jesus Christ.
So we then have the transition from Joseph to Brigham as the "President of the High Priesthood.
Do you think the keys remained active and viable in the Church of Jesus Christ with Brigham at the head?
And, if you do, did they continue after that?

I would make an observation about your comments. They seem to imply that "The Church" is made up of the whole of its members, or that The Church as an organization, with keys and priesthood, has fallen. Which of these is true, or if you don't agree with either, what is the reality in that regard according to your opinion.

To give you better insight into my thoughts, I’ll give you
Some background info.

Among the Presidents that followed Joseph’s death, it appears that the “transfiguration” of Brigham Young did not happen, at least the sources saying such a thing happened would never be accepted by any legitimate historian if we were discussing any other topic. The “succession crisis” boiled down to the remaining leaders reasoning among themselves util they settled with Brigham as the President once more.

Continuing on the succession over the years, it doesn’t appear every President was set apart for their calling. For years their belief was apparently that they were already set apart when they became Apostles and it would be redundant to do so upon becoming President of the Church. Then a couple of them were set apart, apparently they thought it necessary, but then another one wasn’t set apart again.( I can give more details if you want, I’m just giving you the general idea) .

In addition to that, they did not know who would become the next President. It most certainly was not the “most senior Apostle”. The rule they abided by changed many times. The brethren had debates about it, they comment about the topic in their journals, there was no revelation telling them to just go with the Senior Apostle. Eventually they decided on that and it became the precedent .( After John Taylor I believe). I’m not sure if you want sources or
Not, I just don’t want to derail the thread into something else .

Now, given all that, I need to make it clear that I think God does not always operate in black and white . I think he can give anybody power anytime anywhere.
I don’t think it would really matter if they didn’t set someone apart if God truly did call a man and bless him to be his Prophet.

The thing that might annoy some people is that I really haven’t come to any solid conclusion.
I think that the polygamy they practiced was an abomination that did not please God, it’s my opinion that they have operated largely without the type of Revelation that I used to think they receive(and what most members assume as well).

I don’t know if they were all called of God, I don’t know if a portion of them were called of God. I hope they were.

I think it’s probable that even in the event that God was displeased with all of them that the keys could have carried on, allowing them to still push the church forward. That would mean that even if all of the church Presidents weren’t “true Prophets” in the sense that Joseph was a prophet, they still had the proper keys to operate.

This probably sounds like nonsense to you, but as I have never come to a conclusion on what I believe has happened with keys, I can only offer you the things going through my mind on the topic.

If I go down the other route, and assume that all is dandy, they were all called of God and the keys absolutely remain no question, then I’m left to ponder on why we have an extremely watered down version of the Gospel we see in the scriptures and in Joseph’s time. This path delves into other paths like Priesthood power, manifestations of the Holy Ghost, revelations and the lack thereof. Again, I don’t want to derail the thread, but to me it’s obvious that these things are lacking in our church(in my own life as well, with the exception of some periods in my life).

Hence why I don’t really know how to give a straight answer to your question. I hope this wall of text gives you insight .

I guess again, it depends on what “fallen” means. Condemned but not cast off and burned?
Whether or not you believe the church is no longer under condemnation, we know there was at least a period where the church was under condemnation. Was the church “fallen” during that time? What was it’s status? I don’t know.

Truth be told, this topic isn’t extraordinarily important to me. I’ve spent most of my past 2 years reading and rereading the same verses in the Book of Mormon, studying a single topic(The Doctrine of Christ) and it’s really the only topic I’m passionate about because it’s the only topic I can say I DO KNOW, everything else I have received no answers or explanations from God . My Anchor is Christ, and the answer to everything we are discussing wouldn’t rattle my anchor in any way, hence why I just don’t have a passion for it.

Edit: List of scriptures I referenced that I prefer to spend time on.

a. Mosiah 4:2-12,
b. Mosiah 5:1-9
c. Alma 36:1-26
d. Helaman 5:35-45
e. 3 Nephi 11:31-40
f. 3 Nephi 19: 8-30
g. Enos 1:2-12
h. 2 Nephi 31:5-21
i. 2 Nephi 32:1-7
j. Moroni 7:35-48
k. Moroni 10:8-33
l. 1 Nephi 2:16
m. Alma 5:6-49
n. Alma 18:41 - Alma 19:1-29
o. Alma 22:14-23
p. Moses 6:64-68
q. Acts 2:1-5

I follow somewhat along Stahura's way of thinking. It wasn't until about a year ago I began to really read the scriptures, not only read them, but prayed for understanding as I've read them, moreover humbling myself and striving for a broken heart and contrite spirit while I read them. As I have read and begun to believe in the scriptures I have noticed some things don't line up. The words really are delicious and sweet. They are filling to the soul! As an aside, when I speak my goal isn't to draw people away from the President of the Church or to have people lose their testimony. I have the view that if it draws you closer to the Savior do it! As Stahura said, the Doctrine of Christ is the MOST important thing and for me, I've noticed that too often it's teachings are woefully absent or misunderstood in local wards and areas - and I have along with the other scriptures he mentioined, teaches us how we are to live our lives. It teaches us what we are supposed to do and it taught me what I haven't done. My words are only to warn us to repent. I still attend my meetings, I still testify of Christ and hold callings. I don't run around telling people not to listen to the President of the Church, but I do teach them the words of Christ, for they are sweet.

I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created. We as a people are living in iniquity. There is no way around that. We have become like unto the Jews of old where we beleive that the ordinances themselves save us. I don't condemn anyone for these views, I had them my entire life until recently. Truly reading the doctrine of Christ teaches us there is so much more. Baptism is more than just the ordinance, it requires an actual chagne of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost is not something that is automatically given just because someone lays their hands on your head - there is much more required. All these truths are found in the scriptures. Almost every single book in the Book of Mormon teaches us how to seek God. They give examples. The scriptures are plain, but until I submitted to the Lord in all things(a requirement found in the doctrine of CHrist) I was blind to the plainness of the scriptures and the scales of darkness have slowly fallen from my mind. Even now I struggle because of traditions of men. I am constantly wanting to seek out men to learn about God, rather than me realizing that if I want to learn about God, I can ask Him directly. That is what is so powerful about the scriptures, that is what is so powerful about the Doctrine of Christ, we are to do ALL things the Spirit tells us to do, we must constantly submit and give up everything we want and let go of preconceived notions and then the Lord guides us as we ask. Every question I have when I seek after man's interpretation - the thought of "have ye inquired of the Lord" often comes to mind. If I haven't how iniquitous am I? I am like Laman and Lemuel. Anyways, like I said, I don't want to drive anyone from the church or make them lose their faith in Christ, I want them to make Christ the center of their lives and if they do, they will rejoice and find peace even in the midst of turmoil. He is mighty to save and only asks that we come unto Him, not to others. Others are merely meant to teach us to come unto Him - in all things.

I would simply like to echo some of the points that have been made here - with my own story. About 3 years ago, a major change began in my life, turning me to Christ. I'm in my mid forties and for the previous 10-15 years, had been very casual in my church service and even prayer and scripture study. To be completely honest, part of what held me back was my never feeling truly released and forgiven for my past transgressions... So I just kind of wallowed... Then, somehow I guess the Savior decided to grant me a deliverance. The shame, guilt, and temptation that so constantly was a part of my daily life were gone almost overnight and I began, for the first time in 20 years, to seek the Lord in earnest, full of gratitude for the burden that had been lifted. The scriptures began to come alive! My prayers had meaning again!

As part of this awakening, I've been drawn to similar scriptures as Stahura listed above. I've been completely blown away how time and time again in the Book of Mormon we read of individuals and groups of people being born of Christ, receiving the mighty change of heart, being baptized with fire, having His name and law written upon their hearts, being redeemed, born again, and entering into his rest. In fact, the Book of Mormon is more of a born again Christian volume of scripture than is the New Testament! It has become clear to me, that Nephi was correct in 2 Nephi 31 and 32, about the gate we must enter... It is receiving not just a baptism by water, but a baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost. And then, it is truly the Holy Ghost that will lead us by the words of Christ that have been placed upon our heart! Alma the Younger says to "marvel not that we must be born again"... Lamoni and his people were born of God.... Alma the Elder talks of the mighty change of heart... Story after story talks of this great miracle offered to those who exercise true faith in Christ.

Simply put, I have discovered something through personal experience and through deep study of the scriptures. We in the church often feel that coming to Christ is a life long process of doing our very best, and then hopefully, someday, most like after we die, we can be found worthy of all the promises made in scriptures... That is not the case... Being born of God and spiritually begotten of Christ is an event! It can happen to us, just like it happened to all these people we read about! It truly is a spiritual baptism that happens just as quickly and as tangibly as a water baptism. It the the "quickening" that even Father Adam speaks of in Moses 6:65-66. It is "receiving the Holy Ghost" that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery experienced as documented in the Joseph Smith History 1:73-74 (in the back of the Doctrine and Covenants)... It is what most every one of Jesus' parables are talking about!

Now, what of the "process".... There still is a process, OH YES, but it is very different than what many suppose. The process is simply our turning our hearts and minds to the Savior sufficiently that he can work this mighty miracle in our lives. Read 3 Nephi 9:13-22. This is the Lord detailing His doctrine (the doctrine of Christ) to the Nephites who were barely worthy enough to escape destruction in 34AD... These were the Church members! He basically says, "Ok, good for you... You were worthy enough to not be destroyed of the face of the earth... NOW, will you FINALLY come unto ME and I may heal you and TRULY CONVERT YOU?" .... and how is this to be done??? He answers this a few verses later... We must approach him with a TRULY broken heart and a TRULY contrite spirit.

I would submit to any of you, my brothers and sisters, that if this miracle hasn't happened yet in your life, it is simply because your offering of "a broken heart and a contrite spirit" is not YET acceptable to Him... But it can be. As soon as you fully submit to Him, fully humble yourself before Him, and stop accepting substitutes... When you do this, you will be born of Him. He will baptize you with fire as he promised. This is know!

Now, as for the Church, and where we stand today... I will repeat what Joseph Smith said 2 years prior to his death . He stood in front of a large group of Sisters and read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 14. He compared the apostacy and corruption of the Israel of Ezekiel's time to the Latter Day Saints. He said "the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men... that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds..." If you want to read this account, it's in both the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 237-238, and also in the Joseph Smith papers. READ EZEKIEL 14 and pray on this chapter!!!

I will tell you that I strongly, strongly suspect that the precept that "the president of the Church [cannot] lead you astray" is a false precept. This promise was never given by the Lord to any people, nor do I believe it was given to us. Just because this statement was given by Wilford Woodruff, it does not mean it was given by the Lord. Yet, it has given thousands and thousands of Latter Day Saints much hope and peace, but also provided a false sense of "carnal security" (2 Nephi 28:21). It has become a core doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over. But does this make it true?

As individuals, and as a Gentile church, I believe we have agency to come to Him or to "walk in darkness at noonday" and reject the oracles of God and cleave unto the lesser law of carnal ordinances (which I believe we have done). I believe this is exactly what Jesus was speaking of in 3 Nephi 16:10. Can we not see that the Church has itself become an idol in our minds and hearts that has taken the place of the Savior himself? Imagine if all the testimonies born in Church about "THE CHURCH" or "THE PROPHET" were replaced by burning and bright testimonies of the Savior Jesus Christ and how we are "alive in Christ" and "spiritually begotten of Him" and have "no more desire to do evil" because we have "taken His name upon ourselves" and "if it were possible we could prophesy of all things!"

Just my 2 cents... And my personal experience. May the Lord bless you all with greater light and knowledge in Him! And no, I am not disgruntled, nor a former member. I teach Elder's Quorum and was previously Executive Secretary.....

[lemuel]

There appears to be 2 opposing groups who proclaim the other side is wrong. Who is ready to stake their Eternal Salvation on a belief that scriptures do not mean what they say. They were WRITTEN for the common man." Learned scholars need not apply" may be written on the cover of the next edition.
I TOO CAME ACROSS IT JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AS WE HAVE READ FOR YEARS THAT CERTAIN PARTS SHALL REMAIN HIDDEN UTIL LATER . It IS NOW nearly 50 years later for me and I just discovered at a couple of years ago. ONE reading was enough to wake me up. Perhaps the Lord makes things easier after we turn 80.

I tip my hat to you just for figuring out how this new-fangled internet thing works.

[James Paul]

It is interesting to me to revisit this site and find a response to my last, boring to most, post.
I was 40 years old when I finished my 3 year in depth investigation of the True Church. During that time, I learned that what I had thought for some time, was people lying about their family life, as they described their childhood and later experiences, was in reality actually the way some people experienced growing up.
This still bothers me as my 3 LDS sons , I fear have suffered for the lack I had as a child. I could easily have said, "having been born of goodly parents",,,,,,,, As I never smoked or drank but saw little use for the church I spent my 19 formative years with.
By age 40, I was shocked to learn about repentance, baptism with authority, revelation, prophecy and healing powers.
The year following my baptism was the Bi Centennial year for the Declaration of Independence, which brought forth much unity in the US as everyone was involved in some sort of celebration. I soon had a quick reply when asked what we were doing for the celebration." We are having a BABY, what are you doing?"
I will never forget giving that son his blessing on July 4th, 1976 as he was dressed in White with a large Red and also a Blue ribbon around his chest.
That seems to have been the start of the decline of faith in Founder's form of govt and also the rise of satan's attacks on the church. The Roe V Wade was not yet an item of conversation, and the church had no stance on abortion as it had been against the law in all states.but soon became a war of good versus evil.
It was a couple of years later that my wife and I walked the sidewalks in Salt Lake City carrying petitions to place the right to life, on the ballot expecting to cause an end to the fussing.
I have sen so much decline in morality and all manner of ungodly conduct that I began to see the latter day Aints grow in numbers. (CONT)

[James Paul]

My internet connection keeps me from posting much of the time>
Since the Roe V Wade became a focal point I did a lot of studying of LDS Church history as it used to be easy to find on LDS sites even for an old coot who got a used 486 computer and got on the web when he was 62..
SO many times I read how Prophets had pleaded with MEMBERS Not to follow the path (Of satan actually) as they turned their backs on Church schools and sent their kids to the gentile schools, which later became the govt schools of indoctrination. The Book which was written by Phyllis Schafley as the govt had investigated the school systems and then kept the results hidden from the public, so she published with her own money what the hearings exposed.
She titled the Book, Child Abuse in the Classroom which was NOT found in the Salt Lake libraries but an interconnection had been created and they pulled a copy from the Mesa Arizona library for me to read.
So many other foolish refusals to follow prophets changed the way US Senators were chosen in 1913, the repeal of prohibition and the list is Endless. A good example is how Reed Smoot lost his seat in the US Senate after 1913.. Reed was the man who faced off in the newspapers to stop the League of Nations from becoming what the UN has been since shortly after the death of FDR.
Today we see what has happened when the church bowed under pressure from IRS and govt to CHANGE and accept the new rules to keep tax exemption for members with missionaries.
The common chant in Utah is,"We just have to follow the prophet."
My response is WHEN do you intend to START?
We do so many things changing now that President Nelson is in charge. I am hearing a tiny amount of weeping and wailing and teeth being replaced by false ones.
Mincing and tinkling seems to be dong well.

[Chip]

James,

Could you elaborate on what you mean in the last three sentences, please. I want to understand better what you are saying.

We do so many things changing now that President Nelson is in charge. I am hearing a tiny amount of weeping and wailing and teeth being replaced by false ones.
Mincing and tinkling seems to be dong well.

[James Paul]

Have you been following what he has had to say for the last year? MANY things he says will CHANGE, yet a lot of folks seem to be choosing sides to decide if he is right or not. Well this IS THE LAST DAYS and no nonsense will be allowed by the Lord.