Mormon 8:38 and apostasy

[topcat]

Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?

GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.

If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).

Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.

You are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.

Yes, Justme is literally fulfilling scripture. And the scripture that comes to mind is:

2 Nephi 28:

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

And Justme is in "good" company:

President Hinckley explained more about his role as prophet for the church in a 1997 interview with the San Francisco Chronicle:

Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?

A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received.

To clarify. JohnnyL was the commenter I was responding to, not Justme.

I fixed it. Thanks.

[JohnnyL]

Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?

GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.

If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).

Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.

You are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.

Yes, JohnnyL is literally fulfilling scripture. And the scripture that comes to mind is:

2 Nephi 28:

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

And JohnnyL is in "good" company:

President Hinckley explained more about his role as prophet for the church in a 1997 interview with the San Francisco Chronicle:

Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?

A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received.

Here, topcat, don't forget this:

Right, so some people want more rules, more commandments, more doctrine, so they can "feel good and safe" that the prophets really are prophets. Yet, when they are given (WoW changes to commandment, for example), the some people reject them.
What some people really need is a testimony--not "proof" that the prophets really are prophets.

That's an important part.

What did Alma say about the word of God and who gets more of it?

[JohnnyL]

Nice to know where you stand. As for me I stand with the Lord and with his church.

You can stand with the lord and his church and still know it needs to be set in order.

Yes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.

Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.

If the leaders are not perfect, that means they can lead us astray. Agreed?

Please name one example of a leader who has been held accountable, and publicly reprimanded or corrected or reproved for the error taught or done.

This type of correction never (I don't think this is an overstatement or exaggeration at all) happens at the top of the church, and I've never seen it happen at the stake president or bishop level and I've been a member for 30 years.

Therefore if no corrections are being made, then that means the institution is way off course, i.e., apostate. It means that all leaders have each other's backs. It means that they are going along to get along. It means that all leaders' eyes are on the institution, and not the Lord. In a nutshell, it means what Mormon 8:38 says: the holy church of God has become polluted.

Black swan mistake. You are assuming, incorrectly, that since you don't see it, it's not happening. In addition, you seem to equate "not being perfect" with a need for public correction, or else the Church is "way off course".
Please keep in mind what JS said about that.

The GA's (well, especially the apostles) are generally quite aware of their human weakness and weaknesses themselves.

I know (mostly personal experiences) of bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, temple presidents, area authorities, Seventies, and apostles being corrected, reproved, and/or reprimanded. Most have been official, but some have been through other means. True, very, very few have been made public. Maybe you've never been corrected or reproved in your calling, but many others have (personal experiences ), and I've done it more than a few times, too.
As JS showed, reproving without correction/ counsel, is not the right way to do things, if possible. (Near the end at http://www.ldsliving.com/Joseph-Smith-s ... ss/s/85417 )

Remember that the Lord corrects, reproves, and reprimands also. (Who corrected JS?)

Let's look at DC 3 and 10. What happened when JS was wrong and disobeyed, many times? Was the Church led astray? Was it destroyed?
Why do you believe that "imperfection"="Church led astray"?

Here, some quotes https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... leaders.3F :

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained:
An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be.[14]

Dallin H. Oaks explained how the Lord allows all His children to grow through struggling with problems:
Revelations from God . . . are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit. That is part of the experience we must have in mortality. Fortunately, we are never out of our Savior's sight, and if our judgment leads us to actions beyond the limits of what is permissible and if we are listening, . . . the Lord will restrain us by the promptings of his Spirit.[15]

The Lord will not help his children avoid all stumbling and error; He will protect them from permanent harm to His work, as Boyd K. Packer taught:
Even with the best of intentions, [Church government] does not always work the way it should. Human nature may express itself on occasion, but not to the permanent injury of the work.[16]

A lot of other good quotes there that you might enjoy.

[topcat]

You can stand with the lord and his church and still know it needs to be set in order.

Yes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.

Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.

If the leaders are not perfect, that means they can lead us astray. Agreed?

Please name one example of a leader who has been held accountable, and publicly reprimanded or corrected or reproved for the error taught or done.

This type of correction never (I don't think this is an overstatement or exaggeration at all) happens at the top of the church, and I've never seen it happen at the stake president or bishop level and I've been a member for 30 years.

Therefore if no corrections are being made, then that means the institution is way off course, i.e., apostate. It means that all leaders have each other's backs. It means that they are going along to get along. It means that all leaders' eyes are on the institution, and not the Lord. In a nutshell, it means what Mormon 8:38 says: the holy church of God has become polluted.

Black swan mistake. You are assuming, incorrectly, that since you don't see it, it's not happening. In addition, you seem to equate "not being perfect" with a need for public correction, or else the Church is "way off course".
Please keep in mind what JS said about that.

The GA's (well, especially the apostles) are generally quite aware of their human weakness and weaknesses themselves.

I know (mostly personal experiences) of bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, temple presidents, area authorities, Seventies, and apostles being corrected, reproved, and/or reprimanded. Most have been official, but some have been through other means. True, very, very few have been made public. Maybe you've never been corrected or reproved in your calling, but many others have (personal experiences ), and I've done it more than a few times, too.
As JS showed, reproving without correction/ counsel, is not the right way to do things, if possible. (Near the end at http://www.ldsliving.com/Joseph-Smith-s ... ss/s/85417 )

Remember that the Lord corrects, reproves, and reprimands also. (Who corrected JS?)

Let's look at DC 3 and 10. What happened when JS was wrong and disobeyed, many times? Was the Church led astray? Was it destroyed?
Why do you believe that "imperfection"="Church led astray"?

Here, some quotes https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... leaders.3F :

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained:
An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be.[14]

Dallin H. Oaks explained how the Lord allows all His children to grow through struggling with problems:
Revelations from God . . . are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit. That is part of the experience we must have in mortality. Fortunately, we are never out of our Savior's sight, and if our judgment leads us to actions beyond the limits of what is permissible and if we are listening, . . . the Lord will restrain us by the promptings of his Spirit.[15]

The Lord will not help his children avoid all stumbling and error; He will protect them from permanent harm to His work, as Boyd K. Packer taught:
Even with the best of intentions, [Church government] does not always work the way it should. Human nature may express itself on occasion, but not to the permanent injury of the work.[16]

A lot of other good quotes there that you might enjoy.

Oh, to be sure, "corrections" happen all the time. A visiting GA will reprimand a stake president for allowing a deacon to pass sacrament with a non-white shirt or a priest to officiate with facial hair. Or maybe his OCD compels him to change the hymn on a program. The correction ALWAYS flows from the top down and NEVER bottom up.

I'm not equating ""not being perfect" with a need for public correction." The Brethren have zero problem with admitting they're not perfect.

I'm talking about doctrinal errors, and exclusively about doctrinal errors.

Name a false teaching taught by the Twelve which has been publicly corrected please. Can't do it? Ask yourself why you can't name examples.

As an apologist, you weakly argue, "that since you don't see [public corrections of false doctrine being taught], [doesn't mean the correction is] not happening." That's a true statement on its face. Of course, just because you can't see Jesus doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Or just because you can't see the real penny in my closed hand doesn't mean it's not there.

But how are the saints supposed to benefit from your alleged "private correction"? If the correction is never acknowledged publicly, then the error keeps getting quoted and repeated and essentially metastasizes, doesn't it?

One very good example comes to mind. As an apostle, Ezra Taft Benson (who happens to be my favorite of all time, aside from Joseph) gave a talk, riddled with dangerous errors, in 1980 which is STILL found at www.lds.org. Read it here at https://www.lds.org/study/liahona/1981/ ... t?lang=eng

Pres Kimball was alarmed at the speech, and requested Benson to meet with the Twelve to explain himself, at which time Kimball reprimanded Benson for the errors he taught.

The obvious danger and negligence in not publicly correctly is that the false teachings are perpetuated and become sort of "canonized", if you will, in the body of the Church. Such perpetuation actually OFFICIALLY occurred in 2010's General Conference where Elder Claudio R.M. Costa repeats the false, heretical teachings, with the main underlying false assumption being that we have a living "Joseph Smith" type of prophet in the Quorum of the Twelve now. However, keep in mind that even Pres Kimball was not pleased with the content of the talk. The conclusion is that private doctrinal corrections may take place, but how valuable is that correction if nobody in the body of the Church is aware of the error and keeps repeating it?!

It seems self-explanatory, to me, that "private" corrections are completely ineffective and useless, and even cowardly, esp with our teaching in the BoM that it's better to possibly hurt the pride of one man by publicly correcting a false teaching, than to let the entire people dwindle and perish in unbelief (1 Nephi 4:13). Seriously, let's get our priorities right.

Or maybe, just maybe, the priorities are perfectly correct and sensible, if the apostles' main goal is to preserve the institution and the institution's reputation!!!!

If that is the goal, then it makes total sense why public corrections never take place. Truth is not the most important thing, but it's the reputation of the institution that must take priority. Tradition over Truth! Not the other way around.

And lest we forget what the BoM warns about the dangers of tradition, consider Alma 3:8 which says that "incorrect traditions [will] prove [our] destruction."

[JohnnyL]

Yes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.

Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.

If the leaders are not perfect, that means they can lead us astray. Agreed?

Please name one example of a leader who has been held accountable, and publicly reprimanded or corrected or reproved for the error taught or done.

This type of correction never (I don't think this is an overstatement or exaggeration at all) happens at the top of the church, and I've never seen it happen at the stake president or bishop level and I've been a member for 30 years.

Therefore if no corrections are being made, then that means the institution is way off course, i.e., apostate. It means that all leaders have each other's backs. It means that they are going along to get along. It means that all leaders' eyes are on the institution, and not the Lord. In a nutshell, it means what Mormon 8:38 says: the holy church of God has become polluted.

Black swan mistake. You are assuming, incorrectly, that since you don't see it, it's not happening. In addition, you seem to equate "not being perfect" with a need for public correction, or else the Church is "way off course".
Please keep in mind what JS said about that.

The GA's (well, especially the apostles) are generally quite aware of their human weakness and weaknesses themselves.

I know (mostly personal experiences) of bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, temple presidents, area authorities, Seventies, and apostles being corrected, reproved, and/or reprimanded. Most have been official, but some have been through other means. True, very, very few have been made public. Maybe you've never been corrected or reproved in your calling, but many others have (personal experiences ), and I've done it more than a few times, too.
As JS showed, reproving without correction/ counsel, is not the right way to do things, if possible. (Near the end at http://www.ldsliving.com/Joseph-Smith-s ... ss/s/85417 )

Remember that the Lord corrects, reproves, and reprimands also. (Who corrected JS?)

Let's look at DC 3 and 10. What happened when JS was wrong and disobeyed, many times? Was the Church led astray? Was it destroyed?
Why do you believe that "imperfection"="Church led astray"?

Here, some quotes https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... leaders.3F :

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained:
An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be.[14]

Dallin H. Oaks explained how the Lord allows all His children to grow through struggling with problems:
Revelations from God . . . are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit. That is part of the experience we must have in mortality. Fortunately, we are never out of our Savior's sight, and if our judgment leads us to actions beyond the limits of what is permissible and if we are listening, . . . the Lord will restrain us by the promptings of his Spirit.[15]

The Lord will not help his children avoid all stumbling and error; He will protect them from permanent harm to His work, as Boyd K. Packer taught:
Even with the best of intentions, [Church government] does not always work the way it should. Human nature may express itself on occasion, but not to the permanent injury of the work.[16]

A lot of other good quotes there that you might enjoy.

Oh, to be sure, "corrections" happen all the time. A visiting GA will reprimand a stake president for allowing a deacon to pass sacrament with a non-white shirt or a priest to officiate with facial hair. Or maybe his OCD compels him to change the hymn on a program. The correction ALWAYS flows from the top down and NEVER bottom up.

I'm not equating ""not being perfect" with a need for public correction." The Brethren have zero problem with admitting they're not perfect.

I'm talking about doctrinal errors, and exclusively about doctrinal errors.

Name a false teaching taught by the Twelve which has been publicly corrected please. Can't do it? Ask yourself why you can't name examples.

As an apologist, you weakly argue, "that since you don't see [public corrections of false doctrine being taught], [doesn't mean the correction is] not happening." That's a true statement on its face. Of course, just because you can't see Jesus doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Or just because you can't see the real penny in my closed hand doesn't mean it's not there.

But how are the saints supposed to benefit from your alleged "private correction"? If the correction is never acknowledged publicly, then the error keeps getting quoted and repeated and essentially metastasizes, doesn't it?

One very good example comes to mind. As an apostle, Ezra Taft Benson (who happens to be my favorite of all time, aside from Joseph) gave a talk, riddled with dangerous errors, in 1980 which is STILL found at www.lds.org. Read it here at https://www.lds.org/study/liahona/1981/ ... t?lang=eng

Pres Kimball was alarmed at the speech, and requested Benson to meet with the Twelve to explain himself, at which time Kimball reprimanded Benson for the errors he taught.

The obvious danger and negligence in not publicly correctly is that the false teachings are perpetuated and become sort of "canonized", if you will, in the body of the Church. Such perpetuation actually OFFICIALLY occurred in 2010's General Conference where Elder Claudio R.M. Costa repeats the false, heretical teachings, with the main underlying false assumption being that we have a living "Joseph Smith" type of prophet in the Quorum of the Twelve now. However, keep in mind that even Pres Kimball was not pleased with the content of the talk. The conclusion is that private doctrinal corrections may take place, but how valuable is that correction if nobody in the body of the Church is aware of the error and keeps repeating it?!

It seems self-explanatory, to me, that "private" corrections are completely ineffective and useless, and even cowardly, esp with our teaching in the BoM that it's better to possibly hurt the pride of one man by publicly correcting a false teaching, than to let the entire people dwindle and perish in unbelief (1 Nephi 4:13). Seriously, let's get our priorities right.

Or maybe, just maybe, the priorities are perfectly correct and sensible, if the apostles' main goal is to preserve the institution and the institution's reputation!!!!

If that is the goal, then it makes total sense why public corrections never take place. Truth is not the most important thing, but it's the reputation of the institution that must take priority. Tradition over Truth! Not the other way around.

And lest we forget what the BoM warns about the dangers of tradition, consider Alma 3:8 which says that "incorrect traditions [will] prove [our] destruction."

Yes, I've seen those corrections, too. However, I know of many instances (many personal) where correction has gone from bottom up--bishopric counselors to bishops, members to stake presidents regarding bishops, bishopric counselors to area 70's, even members to apostles. And now that we have the internet, wow, there's no limit (even to correcting God, lol).

A few errors do get held on to, but most don't. Church history has many people being reprimanded, the JoD has many, DaC has many, church archives have many. Can you list all the errors that should have been corrected, but haven't been? (Joseph Fielding Smith, hated by many lukewarm LDS, had an entire book that had corrections.)

Do you wish for contention? Did JS teach something about people needing to be led to truth, in love? How much would a public chastising help that goal?

How many times did Jesus publicly chastize his apostles, in front of the believers? non-believers? others? Do you believe that the lack of Jesus publicly chastising hurt the church members? When the brother of Jared spoke incorrectly about Jesus Christ's finger, how did Jesus correct him?

Well, YOU are aware of that anecdote, and you're not a GA, right? But then: what "false, heretical" errors did Pres. Kimball reprimand? Or did he do so because he was prophet at the time, and didn't want anyone to think he was more?

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

[I AM]

Hmm... WoW has *MULTIPLE* PROPHETS/PRESIDENTS and apostles saying it's a commandment; "but it's not".
ONE apostle gave this interpretation, so "it's definitely true".
Seems like a strong case of confirmation bias.

Mormon is NOT talking about the LDS Church.
When JS translated the BoM, there was no "LDS Church".

-------------

I think we need to wake up my friend.

"When JS translated the BoM, there was no "LDS Church".
so what does that have to do with it ?

You don't think then that they could see our day - now ? ( *** continue below)
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

"Mormon chapter eight is directed squarely at the reader. I think it’s safe to say that there are very few other than the Latter Day Saints who read the Book of Mormon. Moroni’s words are not idle comments and prophecies for those who would not read the book. He reveals that he has seen our day and that we walk in pride and arrogance. “Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.” (Mormon 8:34-35) He didn’t identify any group when he started chapter 8 because he’s talking to you the reader of the record. None other. This is unambiguous. He calls you “YOU.” He may have seen YOU in this vision. Wake up!"

WHY did we even receive this book anyway - that came directly to us - Mormons -
named after The Book of Mormon?
(which just happens to be the book we are talking about IN The Book of Mormon)
WHY ? !
I guess just to go preach to everyone else about it, but not think that anything could possibly
apply to us in it. ya right !

"The LDS people have a tendency, when reading the BOM, to look at those things spoken of regarding the “Gentiles” in two ways. One is that all of those things that are of a flattering nature are attributable to the LDS people and that those things which are of a negative nature and perceived as a call to repentance are meant for those other people who are the evil “Gentiles”. This to me is disingenuous."

***
and they knew the Lord would bring their book to us to read
about their peoples fallen history, and to warn US - (the church now and all
the Gentiles in this :"choice land" - this Godless fallen land of the U.S..)
to not make the same mistakes as they did, when they lost the gospel
and the Lord brought it to us - the Gentiles.
They tried to warn us of our own impending doom, but we, like them
were just to proud and didn't want to listen and think that these warnings
that were given could possibly be for us - the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
When actually, these warnings are directed right at the church just as much
and more than anyone else.

So now, we will do as they did, and loose the gospel back to them.
3 Nephi 16:11
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel,
and I will bring my gospel unto them.

12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles SHALL NOT have POWER over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
-----------------------------------------------------------

as far as thinking that it's not talking about our day - now;
tell me how these scriptures could apply to any other time but ours - NOW !

also you might want to take a look at this.
http://www.mormon8-38.com/
http://yblds.com/

I think we need to look at verses 23 and 26
23 "even from the dust will they cry"
26 "for out of the earth shall they come"
"and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead."
These verses sound like to me they are referring to
none other than the book these are in,
and the person who is speaking to us
who's it (the book) is named after,
the coming forth of the "The Book of Mormon".
And even if they are not; ALL the scriptures after that,
verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

What time period was Christ talking about in these scriptures below ?

Matthew 24
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the END OF THE WORLD?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 AND YE SHALL HEAR OF WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Now doesn't verse 6 in Matthew 24
6 AND YE SHALL HEAR OF WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET.

sound like this verse below ?:
Mormon 8:
30 And there shall also be HEARD OF WARS, RUMORS OF WARS, and earthquakes in divers places.

These verses are definitely talking about the end-times - the last days - our time now !

verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

Mormon 8:
26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
( if "and your churches, yea, even every one) doesn't include our church, then English has become useless)

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

"Mormons today dwindle in unbelief. There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people and therefore unavoidably in the right way.
So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days, we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves. Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom. Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.
You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted warning those who will never read the book."

I believe these verses are talking about everyone in this "choice land"
of America and especially for the church and it's members.
Interesting why the word "teachers" is used in the same verse
just before he says "who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? "
What other holy church of God is in the world today ?
I believe the only holy church of God this could be is none other than
our church today.

[John Tavner]

Regardless of whether you don't agree with I Am's interpretation of Mormon 8. I will be a second witness and testify that we are all wicked. There is no way we can look at ourselves and say we are righteous. Babylon has infiltrated us so utterly and completely that it is impossible to define us as a "peculiar" people anymore. We worship the work of our hands more than we worship God. If you don't believe me ask yourself or ask others how often they think of God more than they think of any other aspect of life. Are our hearts constantly turned towards the Lord, or towards money. I am a wicked man too, but am striving to repent and cry unto him all the day long - it is a process to change mindset. I will tell you that if we don't repent we will suffer, the writing is on the wall. Now is the day of our repentance and judgment is coming. So you don't have to believe I Am's interpretations, but as a second witness, I would say you/we should believe the call to repent and turn our hearts to the Lord once more and throw off Babylon and again Be in the world but not of it, otherwise those flaxen cords will be so tight around us that we will find we are wrapped in chains at the final day, this I promise.

[topcat]

If the leaders are not perfect, that means they can lead us astray. Agreed?

Please name one example of a leader who has been held accountable, and publicly reprimanded or corrected or reproved for the error taught or done.

This type of correction never (I don't think this is an overstatement or exaggeration at all) happens at the top of the church, and I've never seen it happen at the stake president or bishop level and I've been a member for 30 years.

Therefore if no corrections are being made, then that means the institution is way off course, i.e., apostate. It means that all leaders have each other's backs. It means that they are going along to get along. It means that all leaders' eyes are on the institution, and not the Lord. In a nutshell, it means what Mormon 8:38 says: the holy church of God has become polluted.

Black swan mistake. You are assuming, incorrectly, that since you don't see it, it's not happening. In addition, you seem to equate "not being perfect" with a need for public correction, or else the Church is "way off course".
Please keep in mind what JS said about that.

The GA's (well, especially the apostles) are generally quite aware of their human weakness and weaknesses themselves.

I know (mostly personal experiences) of bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, temple presidents, area authorities, Seventies, and apostles being corrected, reproved, and/or reprimanded. Most have been official, but some have been through other means. True, very, very few have been made public. Maybe you've never been corrected or reproved in your calling, but many others have (personal experiences ), and I've done it more than a few times, too.
As JS showed, reproving without correction/ counsel, is not the right way to do things, if possible. (Near the end at http://www.ldsliving.com/Joseph-Smith-s ... ss/s/85417 )

Remember that the Lord corrects, reproves, and reprimands also. (Who corrected JS?)

Let's look at DC 3 and 10. What happened when JS was wrong and disobeyed, many times? Was the Church led astray? Was it destroyed?
Why do you believe that "imperfection"="Church led astray"?

Here, some quotes https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... leaders.3F :

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained:
An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be.[14]

Dallin H. Oaks explained how the Lord allows all His children to grow through struggling with problems:
Revelations from God . . . are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit. That is part of the experience we must have in mortality. Fortunately, we are never out of our Savior's sight, and if our judgment leads us to actions beyond the limits of what is permissible and if we are listening, . . . the Lord will restrain us by the promptings of his Spirit.[15]

The Lord will not help his children avoid all stumbling and error; He will protect them from permanent harm to His work, as Boyd K. Packer taught:
Even with the best of intentions, [Church government] does not always work the way it should. Human nature may express itself on occasion, but not to the permanent injury of the work.[16]

A lot of other good quotes there that you might enjoy.

Oh, to be sure, "corrections" happen all the time. A visiting GA will reprimand a stake president for allowing a deacon to pass sacrament with a non-white shirt or a priest to officiate with facial hair. Or maybe his OCD compels him to change the hymn on a program. The correction ALWAYS flows from the top down and NEVER bottom up.

I'm not equating ""not being perfect" with a need for public correction." The Brethren have zero problem with admitting they're not perfect.

I'm talking about doctrinal errors, and exclusively about doctrinal errors.

Name a false teaching taught by the Twelve which has been publicly corrected please. Can't do it? Ask yourself why you can't name examples.

As an apologist, you weakly argue, "that since you don't see [public corrections of false doctrine being taught], [doesn't mean the correction is] not happening." That's a true statement on its face. Of course, just because you can't see Jesus doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Or just because you can't see the real penny in my closed hand doesn't mean it's not there.

But how are the saints supposed to benefit from your alleged "private correction"? If the correction is never acknowledged publicly, then the error keeps getting quoted and repeated and essentially metastasizes, doesn't it?

One very good example comes to mind. As an apostle, Ezra Taft Benson (who happens to be my favorite of all time, aside from Joseph) gave a talk, riddled with dangerous errors, in 1980 which is STILL found at www.lds.org. Read it here at https://www.lds.org/study/liahona/1981/ ... t?lang=eng

Pres Kimball was alarmed at the speech, and requested Benson to meet with the Twelve to explain himself, at which time Kimball reprimanded Benson for the errors he taught.

The obvious danger and negligence in not publicly correctly is that the false teachings are perpetuated and become sort of "canonized", if you will, in the body of the Church. Such perpetuation actually OFFICIALLY occurred in 2010's General Conference where Elder Claudio R.M. Costa repeats the false, heretical teachings, with the main underlying false assumption being that we have a living "Joseph Smith" type of prophet in the Quorum of the Twelve now. However, keep in mind that even Pres Kimball was not pleased with the content of the talk. The conclusion is that private doctrinal corrections may take place, but how valuable is that correction if nobody in the body of the Church is aware of the error and keeps repeating it?!

It seems self-explanatory, to me, that "private" corrections are completely ineffective and useless, and even cowardly, esp with our teaching in the BoM that it's better to possibly hurt the pride of one man by publicly correcting a false teaching, than to let the entire people dwindle and perish in unbelief (1 Nephi 4:13). Seriously, let's get our priorities right.

Or maybe, just maybe, the priorities are perfectly correct and sensible, if the apostles' main goal is to preserve the institution and the institution's reputation!!!!

If that is the goal, then it makes total sense why public corrections never take place. Truth is not the most important thing, but it's the reputation of the institution that must take priority. Tradition over Truth! Not the other way around.

And lest we forget what the BoM warns about the dangers of tradition, consider Alma 3:8 which says that "incorrect traditions [will] prove [our] destruction."

Yes, I've seen those corrections, too. However, I know of many instances (many personal) where correction has gone from bottom up--bishopric counselors to bishops, members to stake presidents regarding bishops, bishopric counselors to area 70's, even members to apostles. And now that we have the internet, wow, there's no limit (even to correcting God, lol).

A few errors do get held on to, but most don't. Church history has many people being reprimanded, the JoD has many, DaC has many, church archives have many. Can you list all the errors that should have been corrected, but haven't been? (Joseph Fielding Smith, hated by many lukewarm LDS, had an entire book that had corrections.)

Do you wish for contention? Did JS teach something about people needing to be led to truth, in love? How much would a public chastising help that goal?

How many times did Jesus publicly chastize his apostles, in front of the believers? non-believers? others? Do you believe that the lack of Jesus publicly chastising hurt the church members? When the brother of Jared spoke incorrectly about Jesus Christ's finger, how did Jesus correct him?

Well, YOU are aware of that anecdote, and you're not a GA, right? But then: what "false, heretical" errors did Pres. Kimball reprimand? Or did he do so because he was prophet at the time, and didn't want anyone to think he was more?

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

You:

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

I am saying to the Church/ the Brethren truth is not as important as the institution. So I apparently disagree with you on this critical point. And no, Joseph didn't value the institution over truth. Where'd you get that notion?

You:

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

The major point is incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation.

[I AM]

so what "holy church of God" is it that he was talking about in Mormon 8:38 ?
which one ?

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

and why does he differentiate - first saying in verse 36

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

( if "and your churches, yea, even every one) doesn't include our church, then English has become useless)

and then after, he says in verse 38

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

[I AM]

I'm not sure how many forum participants have rubbed elbows with General Authorities, aside from them standing at a pulpit, and me sitting in the audience. The half dozen I have associated with have been regular people, when "off duty". Subject to all of the plights we ourselves find ourselves in from time to time. I think apostasy is such a strong word for the describing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as drifting away from the ambitious beginnings during Joseph Smith's time.

Like kids need a bunch of reminders to brush their teeth, and tie their shoes, and later as teenagers to do their chores and practice whatever they are trying to get good at, the Early Restored Church needed a lot of corrective guidance from a loving Heavenly Father to get it pointed in the right direction.

We as adults, know what we are supposed to be doing, and don't really need a lot of input in the basics. We are expected to keep steaming along and be fruitful by our own labors.

Consequently, I wonder how much REAL REVELATION is coming down from Heaven to our General Authorities. During most of my 42 years since joining the Church while stationed in Korea, I have recognized a few bright spots of new Revealed information as presented. I don't expect the GA's to be continually getting a direct revelatory experience on a daily basis, (or even on an annual basis). Everyone knows what we should be doing. If we aren't doing what we are supposed to, then the General Leadership keeps trying to phrase things in a different way to catch our attention and hopefully help us regain traction in doing whats right and correct.

That is not to say the GA's don't get impressions and minor inspiration when they ask for it. I'm just saying I'm not surprised we haven't had great big REVELATIONS on a frequent basis. (Big REVELATIONS of the sort to add a section to the D&C).

President Nelson is intimidating that big changes are just over the horizon. Seem to me he is one who is looking down range, and is not content to maintain the status quo.

Our job is to follow the Prophet, and if he is found to be barking up the wrong tree (Real Estate Investments, etc. etc). Then the sin be upon his head. He is our leader and it is our duty to at least try and implement into our own lives what is being directed to us from over the pulpit.

-----------------
"Our job is to follow the Prophet" !
good luck with that, because the prophet didn't die for you,
Jesus did, for you, and for the prophet.
And "we haven't had great big REVELATIONS of the sort to add a section to the D&C"as you say,
because the church is not receiving revelation.


you've been deceived my friend, like many members, and can't see beyond the prophet.
The prophet is just a man, and only a man.
Jesus Christ is God the father.
it's like comparing a grain of sand to the Sun.

It's everyone's job to follow Jesus Christ - and have a relationship with Him - and have His spirit with them.
not the prophet - trusting in the "arm of flesh."

I've heard too many members just say, "I follow the prophet".
What does that really mean anyway?
They think that if they follow the prophet, they're saved some how ?,
like saying - "I'm good, I'm fine now, I don't need to do anything else."

Isn't it about time we stop living on borrowed light
If you follow the prophet or the GA's of the church
expecting to be saved, you will be lost.
You can not follow someone into heaven.

Following the prophet can't save you.
Going to church won't save you.

Following the prophet, is not following the Lord.
A prophet is still a man, and not the Lord.
All our focus, faith, trust and hope should be in Jesus Christ - our Savior and NOT in ANY MAN.
Why don't they say - I will follow the lord, and have Him as my guide,
have "His spirit to be with me".
To be saved, there is no middle man, except Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6

Feast upon the words of Christ.
We need to put our faith in Christ
It's CHRIST'S gospel and we need to look to him
and have his spirit with us to guide and direct us.
He's the one that died for us and the ONLY one that can save us.

"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ,
we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ,
and we write according to our prophecies,
that our children may know to what source
they may look for a remission of their sins."
2 Nephi 25:26

"Wherefore, ye must press forward
with a steadfastness in Christ,
having a perfect brightness of hope,
and a love of God and of all men.
Wherefore, if ye shall press forward,
feasting upon the word of Christ,
and endure to the end, behold,
thus saith the Father:
Ye shall have eternal life."
2 Nephi 31:20

[JohnnyL]

Regardless of whether you don't agree with I Am's interpretation of Mormon 8. I will be a second witness and testify that we are all wicked. There is no way we can look at ourselves and say we are righteous. Babylon has infiltrated us so utterly and completely that it is impossible to define us as a "peculiar" people anymore. We worship the work of our hands more than we worship God. If you don't believe me ask yourself or ask others how often they think of God more than they think of any other aspect of life. Are our hearts constantly turned towards the Lord, or towards money. I am a wicked man too, but am striving to repent and cry unto him all the day long - it is a process to change mindset. I will tell you that if we don't repent we will suffer, the writing is on the wall. Now is the day of our repentance and judgment is coming. So you don't have to believe I Am's interpretations, but as a second witness, I would say you/we should believe the call to repent and turn our hearts to the Lord once more and throw off Babylon and again Be in the world but not of it, otherwise those flaxen cords will be so tight around us that we will find we are wrapped in chains at the final day, this I promise.

And where do you stand, John Tavner? What will you repent of? It's ironic how those who oppose the work and word of the Lord, are those proclaiming so loudly that the Church--HIS church, and HIS anointed--need to repent, so much more than those opposing it. How do you explain that to God, when you pray to Him? How do you explain that to Jesus Christ, when you ask Him to forgive ... Who do you ask Jesus Christ to forgive, John Tavner? And for what sins?

[JohnnyL]

Black swan mistake. You are assuming, incorrectly, that since you don't see it, it's not happening. In addition, you seem to equate "not being perfect" with a need for public correction, or else the Church is "way off course".
Please keep in mind what JS said about that.

The GA's (well, especially the apostles) are generally quite aware of their human weakness and weaknesses themselves.

I know (mostly personal experiences) of bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, temple presidents, area authorities, Seventies, and apostles being corrected, reproved, and/or reprimanded. Most have been official, but some have been through other means. True, very, very few have been made public. Maybe you've never been corrected or reproved in your calling, but many others have (personal experiences ), and I've done it more than a few times, too.
As JS showed, reproving without correction/ counsel, is not the right way to do things, if possible. (Near the end at http://www.ldsliving.com/Joseph-Smith-s ... ss/s/85417 )

Remember that the Lord corrects, reproves, and reprimands also. (Who corrected JS?)

Let's look at DC 3 and 10. What happened when JS was wrong and disobeyed, many times? Was the Church led astray? Was it destroyed?
Why do you believe that "imperfection"="Church led astray"?

Here, some quotes https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... leaders.3F :

A lot of other good quotes there that you might enjoy.

Oh, to be sure, "corrections" happen all the time. A visiting GA will reprimand a stake president for allowing a deacon to pass sacrament with a non-white shirt or a priest to officiate with facial hair. Or maybe his OCD compels him to change the hymn on a program. The correction ALWAYS flows from the top down and NEVER bottom up.

I'm not equating ""not being perfect" with a need for public correction." The Brethren have zero problem with admitting they're not perfect.

I'm talking about doctrinal errors, and exclusively about doctrinal errors.

Name a false teaching taught by the Twelve which has been publicly corrected please. Can't do it? Ask yourself why you can't name examples.

As an apologist, you weakly argue, "that since you don't see [public corrections of false doctrine being taught], [doesn't mean the correction is] not happening." That's a true statement on its face. Of course, just because you can't see Jesus doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Or just because you can't see the real penny in my closed hand doesn't mean it's not there.

But how are the saints supposed to benefit from your alleged "private correction"? If the correction is never acknowledged publicly, then the error keeps getting quoted and repeated and essentially metastasizes, doesn't it?

One very good example comes to mind. As an apostle, Ezra Taft Benson (who happens to be my favorite of all time, aside from Joseph) gave a talk, riddled with dangerous errors, in 1980 which is STILL found at www.lds.org. Read it here at https://www.lds.org/study/liahona/1981/ ... t?lang=eng

Pres Kimball was alarmed at the speech, and requested Benson to meet with the Twelve to explain himself, at which time Kimball reprimanded Benson for the errors he taught.

The obvious danger and negligence in not publicly correctly is that the false teachings are perpetuated and become sort of "canonized", if you will, in the body of the Church. Such perpetuation actually OFFICIALLY occurred in 2010's General Conference where Elder Claudio R.M. Costa repeats the false, heretical teachings, with the main underlying false assumption being that we have a living "Joseph Smith" type of prophet in the Quorum of the Twelve now. However, keep in mind that even Pres Kimball was not pleased with the content of the talk. The conclusion is that private doctrinal corrections may take place, but how valuable is that correction if nobody in the body of the Church is aware of the error and keeps repeating it?!

It seems self-explanatory, to me, that "private" corrections are completely ineffective and useless, and even cowardly, esp with our teaching in the BoM that it's better to possibly hurt the pride of one man by publicly correcting a false teaching, than to let the entire people dwindle and perish in unbelief (1 Nephi 4:13). Seriously, let's get our priorities right.

Or maybe, just maybe, the priorities are perfectly correct and sensible, if the apostles' main goal is to preserve the institution and the institution's reputation!!!!

If that is the goal, then it makes total sense why public corrections never take place. Truth is not the most important thing, but it's the reputation of the institution that must take priority. Tradition over Truth! Not the other way around.

And lest we forget what the BoM warns about the dangers of tradition, consider Alma 3:8 which says that "incorrect traditions [will] prove [our] destruction."

Yes, I've seen those corrections, too. However, I know of many instances (many personal) where correction has gone from bottom up--bishopric counselors to bishops, members to stake presidents regarding bishops, bishopric counselors to area 70's, even members to apostles. And now that we have the internet, wow, there's no limit (even to correcting God, lol).

A few errors do get held on to, but most don't. Church history has many people being reprimanded, the JoD has many, DaC has many, church archives have many. Can you list all the errors that should have been corrected, but haven't been? (Joseph Fielding Smith, hated by many lukewarm LDS, had an entire book that had corrections.)

Do you wish for contention? Did JS teach something about people needing to be led to truth, in love? How much would a public chastising help that goal?

How many times did Jesus publicly chastize his apostles, in front of the believers? non-believers? others? Do you believe that the lack of Jesus publicly chastising hurt the church members? When the brother of Jared spoke incorrectly about Jesus Christ's finger, how did Jesus correct him?

Well, YOU are aware of that anecdote, and you're not a GA, right? But then: what "false, heretical" errors did Pres. Kimball reprimand? Or did he do so because he was prophet at the time, and didn't want anyone to think he was more?

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

You:

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

I am saying to the Church/ the Brethren truth is not as important as the institution. So I apparently disagree with you on this critical point. And no, Joseph didn't value the institution over truth. Where'd you get that notion?

You:

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

The major point is incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation.

Yes, incorrect traditions CAN, as in MIGHT, as in NOT ALL--so the important question about that is, which ones?

Actually, we agree on that point. Just not for the same reasons, or in the same "context".
I'll give you a day or two to think about which famous quote (hint: glass) by JS shows that he valued the institution over truth. He had one or more additional thoughts showing that, too. And to find a recent conference talk or two by an apostle (hint: Ballard) or two that show that, too.
When you do find them, the next question is, WHY? Why is the institution more important than truth? (The apostle's talk on that explains it clearly.)

[topcat]

Oh, to be sure, "corrections" happen all the time. A visiting GA will reprimand a stake president for allowing a deacon to pass sacrament with a non-white shirt or a priest to officiate with facial hair. Or maybe his OCD compels him to change the hymn on a program. The correction ALWAYS flows from the top down and NEVER bottom up.

I'm not equating ""not being perfect" with a need for public correction." The Brethren have zero problem with admitting they're not perfect.

I'm talking about doctrinal errors, and exclusively about doctrinal errors.

Name a false teaching taught by the Twelve which has been publicly corrected please. Can't do it? Ask yourself why you can't name examples.

As an apologist, you weakly argue, "that since you don't see [public corrections of false doctrine being taught], [doesn't mean the correction is] not happening." That's a true statement on its face. Of course, just because you can't see Jesus doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Or just because you can't see the real penny in my closed hand doesn't mean it's not there.

But how are the saints supposed to benefit from your alleged "private correction"? If the correction is never acknowledged publicly, then the error keeps getting quoted and repeated and essentially metastasizes, doesn't it?

One very good example comes to mind. As an apostle, Ezra Taft Benson (who happens to be my favorite of all time, aside from Joseph) gave a talk, riddled with dangerous errors, in 1980 which is STILL found at www.lds.org. Read it here at https://www.lds.org/study/liahona/1981/ ... t?lang=eng

Pres Kimball was alarmed at the speech, and requested Benson to meet with the Twelve to explain himself, at which time Kimball reprimanded Benson for the errors he taught.

The obvious danger and negligence in not publicly correctly is that the false teachings are perpetuated and become sort of "canonized", if you will, in the body of the Church. Such perpetuation actually OFFICIALLY occurred in 2010's General Conference where Elder Claudio R.M. Costa repeats the false, heretical teachings, with the main underlying false assumption being that we have a living "Joseph Smith" type of prophet in the Quorum of the Twelve now. However, keep in mind that even Pres Kimball was not pleased with the content of the talk. The conclusion is that private doctrinal corrections may take place, but how valuable is that correction if nobody in the body of the Church is aware of the error and keeps repeating it?!

It seems self-explanatory, to me, that "private" corrections are completely ineffective and useless, and even cowardly, esp with our teaching in the BoM that it's better to possibly hurt the pride of one man by publicly correcting a false teaching, than to let the entire people dwindle and perish in unbelief (1 Nephi 4:13). Seriously, let's get our priorities right.

Or maybe, just maybe, the priorities are perfectly correct and sensible, if the apostles' main goal is to preserve the institution and the institution's reputation!!!!

If that is the goal, then it makes total sense why public corrections never take place. Truth is not the most important thing, but it's the reputation of the institution that must take priority. Tradition over Truth! Not the other way around.

And lest we forget what the BoM warns about the dangers of tradition, consider Alma 3:8 which says that "incorrect traditions [will] prove [our] destruction."

Yes, I've seen those corrections, too. However, I know of many instances (many personal) where correction has gone from bottom up--bishopric counselors to bishops, members to stake presidents regarding bishops, bishopric counselors to area 70's, even members to apostles. And now that we have the internet, wow, there's no limit (even to correcting God, lol).

A few errors do get held on to, but most don't. Church history has many people being reprimanded, the JoD has many, DaC has many, church archives have many. Can you list all the errors that should have been corrected, but haven't been? (Joseph Fielding Smith, hated by many lukewarm LDS, had an entire book that had corrections.)

Do you wish for contention? Did JS teach something about people needing to be led to truth, in love? How much would a public chastising help that goal?

How many times did Jesus publicly chastize his apostles, in front of the believers? non-believers? others? Do you believe that the lack of Jesus publicly chastising hurt the church members? When the brother of Jared spoke incorrectly about Jesus Christ's finger, how did Jesus correct him?

Well, YOU are aware of that anecdote, and you're not a GA, right? But then: what "false, heretical" errors did Pres. Kimball reprimand? Or did he do so because he was prophet at the time, and didn't want anyone to think he was more?

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

You:

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

I am saying to the Church/ the Brethren truth is not as important as the institution. So I apparently disagree with you on this critical point. And no, Joseph didn't value the institution over truth. Where'd you get that notion?

You:

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

The major point is incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation.

Yes, incorrect traditions CAN, as in MIGHT, as in NOT ALL--so the important question about that is, which ones?

Actually, we agree on that point. Just not for the same reasons, or in the same "context".
I'll give you a day or two to think about which famous quote (hint: glass) by JS shows that he valued the institution over truth. He had one or more additional thoughts showing that, too. And to find a recent conference talk or two by an apostle (hint: Ballard) or two that show that, too.
When you do find them, the next question is, WHY? Why is the institution more important than truth? (The apostle's talk on that explains it clearly.)

We agree on what point....can you please state what we agree on?

I assume you mean this famous quote which I'm very fond of:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].”

This quote has nothing to say about Joseph valuing the institution over truth. I don't think such a quote exists. Good luck on producing one.

I can expose some mainstream LDS sacred cows (traditions) which will likely cause (it already appears it has caused) you to "fly to pieces like glass". Do you want to take the red pill? Or the blue pill?

"This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill: the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill: you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes." - Morpheus, The Matrix

[John Tavner]

Regardless of whether you don't agree with I Am's interpretation of Mormon 8. I will be a second witness and testify that we are all wicked. There is no way we can look at ourselves and say we are righteous. Babylon has infiltrated us so utterly and completely that it is impossible to define us as a "peculiar" people anymore. We worship the work of our hands more than we worship God. If you don't believe me ask yourself or ask others how often they think of God more than they think of any other aspect of life. Are our hearts constantly turned towards the Lord, or towards money. I am a wicked man too, but am striving to repent and cry unto him all the day long - it is a process to change mindset. I will tell you that if we don't repent we will suffer, the writing is on the wall. Now is the day of our repentance and judgment is coming. So you don't have to believe I Am's interpretations, but as a second witness, I would say you/we should believe the call to repent and turn our hearts to the Lord once more and throw off Babylon and again Be in the world but not of it, otherwise those flaxen cords will be so tight around us that we will find we are wrapped in chains at the final day, this I promise.

And where do you stand, John Tavner? What will you repent of? It's ironic how those who oppose the work and word of the Lord, are those proclaiming so loudly that the Church--HIS church, and HIS anointed--need to repent, so much more than those opposing it. How do you explain that to God, when you pray to Him? How do you explain that to Jesus Christ, when you ask Him to forgive ... Who do you ask Jesus Christ to forgive, John Tavner? And for what sins?

Helaman 13:
24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.

28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.

29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?

What is the point of scripture if we do not apply it to our own day? Do you honestly believe scripture was written just so we could judge them and think that we are so much better by sitting on our rameumptoms and thanking God that we are so much better than our brethren? Would to God that isn't so. They are meant as a guide to teach of our day, to warn us so that we might repent and come unto Christ. You ask what I seek forgiveness for? Not two days past I felt extreme pain in my soul for sins that I helped cause others to commit though sins I had already repented of in the past. That pains me horribly. I know in whom I have trusted however, Christ Jesus, He is mighty to save. You see, for me I now feel pain not only for my own sins and desire welfare of my own soul, but what might I have done to cause others to stumble. I pray they will forgive me in the latter day and I know that whatever happens the the Lord's judgments are just and I will proclaim his name Holy Holy whatever happens. I am in the process of repenting by turning my heart to God. Almost every day and even multiple times a day I pray and ask for His grace to help me to Love Him with all my heart, might, mind, and strength; I seek and pray for the gift of charity becaues as Moroni stated it is the greatest of all gifts and all other gifts shail fail, but Charity never faileth; I ask for grace that I might have charity; I ask for the gift of revelation; I ask for the gift of prophecy; I ask for the gift of faith in God and in Christ; I ask the Lord to forgive me when I get angry and for Him to take that anger from my heart; I pray for them that despitefully use me; I ask the Lord to forgive them if they ahve wronged me, and if I have wronged them I ask the Lord to show me how and then how might fix it; I ask the Lord to bless those that I am angry with, that they might find peace and love and that He will shower whatever good blessings he has in store for them upon their heads. I ask that my heart be turned wholly toward Him. At night I strive to give gratitude with all my heart for all the blessings I have received from Him; at times my heart hurts because I can't express the love and gratitude I feel for Him for all that He has given me even though I am an unprofitable servant. I express gratitude for His tender mercies in everything He has given me because everything I am and everything that I do is because of Him. I seek and ask for the discerning of Spirits. I aks the Lord to help me give up my love for babylon so that I might leave and turn my heart wholly toward Him; I ask the Lord for the desire to give my whole life to Him. THen when I have the desire so that my intent is pure, I give my will to Him and seek to submit at all times to all things that He seeth fit to inflict upon me.

Do I fail at times, Yes, but I quickly or I strive to quickly return to His presence, because I love haveing the Spirit with me Always, it is such a comfort. Feeling His peace is joyful, when It is absent, then I ache. So that is who I am. I am not here to condemn, merely to express truth. THe truth is that we must all repent and leave Babylon. We are not a peculiar people. We love our tv shows more than God, we love our cars more than God, we love our work more than God, we love our homes more than God, we love video games more than God. We, in gneral do not seek Him on a daily basis. He is the last thing on our mind, often literally as we only think about Him when we pray to go to sleep at night. How can we claim to be a righteous people when this is who we are? How can we claim to be righteous when we are no differnt than our baptist, methodist, or even morally right agnostic friend? We can't. Ordinances to not save if our hearts are not right. Baptism doesn't help us if our heart is not right. The scriptures, esecially the Book of Mormon is exceedingly plain in this. I am not angry at anyone for this because until recently I was blind. I hope though that somehow, someway I might be an instrument in the Lord's hands in waking someone up so that they might seek the Lord a bit more and turn their heart towards Him rather than mammon.

For those that do seek the Lord with full purpose of heart, the Spirit will guide them in all things which to do and the atonement truly will lift them up and change them into a new person. HOwever, one must learn to cast off false traditions in order to truly follow the Spirit, for it will show unto us ALL things that we should do. I suppose the real question is do we believe the scriptures and if we do, have we read them. So feel free to accuse, because I know my heart is right as it can be before the Lord and these words will be a testimony in the last day In short, I suppose I should say this Repent Ye, Repent Ye all ye people of the earth for the time of the Lord is at hand. I will continue to repent, I ask you to do the same- for his message is the same to all Come unto me and unto any who comes unto Him He denies not.

[JohnnyL]

Yes, I've seen those corrections, too. However, I know of many instances (many personal) where correction has gone from bottom up--bishopric counselors to bishops, members to stake presidents regarding bishops, bishopric counselors to area 70's, even members to apostles. And now that we have the internet, wow, there's no limit (even to correcting God, lol).

A few errors do get held on to, but most don't. Church history has many people being reprimanded, the JoD has many, DaC has many, church archives have many. Can you list all the errors that should have been corrected, but haven't been? (Joseph Fielding Smith, hated by many lukewarm LDS, had an entire book that had corrections.)

Do you wish for contention? Did JS teach something about people needing to be led to truth, in love? How much would a public chastising help that goal?

How many times did Jesus publicly chastize his apostles, in front of the believers? non-believers? others? Do you believe that the lack of Jesus publicly chastising hurt the church members? When the brother of Jared spoke incorrectly about Jesus Christ's finger, how did Jesus correct him?

Well, YOU are aware of that anecdote, and you're not a GA, right? But then: what "false, heretical" errors did Pres. Kimball reprimand? Or did he do so because he was prophet at the time, and didn't want anyone to think he was more?

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

You:

I agree that truth is not the most important thing. Even JS would agree with you on that, right? Didn't JS value the institution over truth? Yes, he did. Why?

I am saying to the Church/ the Brethren truth is not as important as the institution. So I apparently disagree with you on this critical point. And no, Joseph didn't value the institution over truth. Where'd you get that notion?

You:

Incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation--but also have almost no effect at all.

The major point is incorrect traditions can hinder us from salvation.

Yes, incorrect traditions CAN, as in MIGHT, as in NOT ALL--so the important question about that is, which ones?

Actually, we agree on that point. Just not for the same reasons, or in the same "context".
I'll give you a day or two to think about which famous quote (hint: glass) by JS shows that he valued the institution over truth. He had one or more additional thoughts showing that, too. And to find a recent conference talk or two by an apostle (hint: Ballard) or two that show that, too.
When you do find them, the next question is, WHY? Why is the institution more important than truth? (The apostle's talk on that explains it clearly.)

We agree on what point....can you please state what we agree on?

I assume you mean this famous quote which I'm very fond of:

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen [see D&C 121:40].”

This quote has nothing to say about Joseph valuing the institution over truth. I don't think such a quote exists. Good luck on producing one.

I can expose some mainstream LDS sacred cows (traditions) which will likely cause (it already appears it has caused) you to "fly to pieces like glass". Do you want to take the red pill? Or the blue pill?

"This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill: the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill: you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes." - Morpheus, The Matrix

Which is why you need to find President Ballard's talk. Keep digging. When you find it, JS's quote will make much more sense.

Any other answers to the questions I've asked?

Do you wish for contention? Did JS teach something about people needing to be led to truth, in love? How much would a public chastising help that goal?

How many times did Jesus publicly chastize his apostles, in front of the believers? non-believers? others? Do you believe that the lack of Jesus publicly chastising hurt the church members? When the brother of Jared spoke incorrectly about Jesus Christ's finger, how did Jesus correct him?

Well, YOU are aware of that anecdote, and you're not a GA, right? But then: what "false, heretical" errors did Pres. Kimball reprimand? Or did he do so because he was prophet at the time, and didn't want anyone to think he was more?

I can expose some mainstream LDS sacred cows (traditions) which will likely cause (it already appears it has caused) you to "fly to pieces like glass". Do you want to take the red pill? Or the blue pill?

Ha ha.

[JohnnyL]

Regardless of whether you don't agree with I Am's interpretation of Mormon 8. I will be a second witness and testify that we are all wicked. There is no way we can look at ourselves and say we are righteous. Babylon has infiltrated us so utterly and completely that it is impossible to define us as a "peculiar" people anymore. We worship the work of our hands more than we worship God. If you don't believe me ask yourself or ask others how often they think of God more than they think of any other aspect of life. Are our hearts constantly turned towards the Lord, or towards money. I am a wicked man too, but am striving to repent and cry unto him all the day long - it is a process to change mindset. I will tell you that if we don't repent we will suffer, the writing is on the wall. Now is the day of our repentance and judgment is coming. So you don't have to believe I Am's interpretations, but as a second witness, I would say you/we should believe the call to repent and turn our hearts to the Lord once more and throw off Babylon and again Be in the world but not of it, otherwise those flaxen cords will be so tight around us that we will find we are wrapped in chains at the final day, this I promise.

And where do you stand, John Tavner? What will you repent of? It's ironic how those who oppose the work and word of the Lord, are those proclaiming so loudly that the Church--HIS church, and HIS anointed--need to repent, so much more than those opposing it. How do you explain that to God, when you pray to Him? How do you explain that to Jesus Christ, when you ask Him to forgive ... Who do you ask Jesus Christ to forgive, John Tavner? And for what sins?

Helaman 13:
24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.

28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.

29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?

What is the point of scripture if we do not apply it to our own day? Do you honestly believe scripture was written just so we could judge them and think that we are so much better by sitting on our rameumptoms and thanking God that we are so much better than our brethren? Would to God that isn't so. They are meant as a guide to teach of our day, to warn us so that we might repent and come unto Christ. You ask what I seek forgiveness for? Not two days past I felt extreme pain in my soul for sins that I helped cause others to commit though sins I had already repented of in the past. That pains me horribly. I know in whom I have trusted however, Christ Jesus, He is mighty to save. You see, for me I now feel pain not only for my own sins and desire welfare of my own soul, but what might I have done to cause others to stumble. I pray they will forgive me in the latter day and I know that whatever happens the the Lord's judgments are just and I will proclaim his name Holy Holy whatever happens. I am in the process of repenting by turning my heart to God. Almost every day and even multiple times a day I pray and ask for His grace to help me to Love Him with all my heart, might, mind, and strength; I seek and pray for the gift of charity becaues as Moroni stated it is the greatest of all gifts and all other gifts shail fail, but Charity never faileth; I ask for grace that I might have charity; I ask for the gift of revelation; I ask for the gift of prophecy; I ask for the gift of faith in God and in Christ; I ask the Lord to forgive me when I get angry and for Him to take that anger from my heart; I pray for them that despitefully use me; I ask the Lord to forgive them if they ahve wronged me, and if I have wronged them I ask the Lord to show me how and then how might fix it; I ask the Lord to bless those that I am angry with, that they might find peace and love and that He will shower whatever good blessings he has in store for them upon their heads. I ask that my heart be turned wholly toward Him. At night I strive to give gratitude with all my heart for all the blessings I have received from Him; at times my heart hurts because I can't express the love and gratitude I feel for Him for all that He has given me even though I am an unprofitable servant. I express gratitude for His tender mercies in everything He has given me because everything I am and everything that I do is because of Him. I seek and ask for the discerning of Spirits. I aks the Lord to help me give up my love for babylon so that I might leave and turn my heart wholly toward Him; I ask the Lord for the desire to give my whole life to Him. THen when I have the desire so that my intent is pure, I give my will to Him and seek to submit at all times to all things that He seeth fit to inflict upon me.

Do I fail at times, Yes, but I quickly or I strive to quickly return to His presence, because I love haveing the Spirit with me Always, it is such a comfort. Feeling His peace is joyful, when It is absent, then I ache. So that is who I am. I am not here to condemn, merely to express truth. THe truth is that we must all repent and leave Babylon. We are not a peculiar people. We love our tv shows more than God, we love our cars more than God, we love our work more than God, we love our homes more than God, we love video games more than God. We, in gneral do not seek Him on a daily basis. He is the last thing on our mind, often literally as we only think about Him when we pray to go to sleep at night. How can we claim to be a righteous people when this is who we are? How can we claim to be righteous when we are no differnt than our baptist, methodist, or even morally right agnostic friend? We can't. Ordinances to not save if our hearts are not right. Baptism doesn't help us if our heart is not right. The scriptures, esecially the Book of Mormon is exceedingly plain in this. I am not angry at anyone for this because until recently I was blind. I hope though that somehow, someway I might be an instrument in the Lord's hands in waking someone up so that they might seek the Lord a bit more and turn their heart towards Him rather than mammon.

For those that do seek the Lord with full purpose of heart, the Spirit will guide them in all things which to do and the atonement truly will lift them up and change them into a new person. HOwever, one must learn to cast off false traditions in order to truly follow the Spirit, for it will show unto us ALL things that we should do. I suppose the real question is do we believe the scriptures and if we do, have we read them. So feel free to accuse, because I know my heart is right as it can be before the Lord and these words will be a testimony in the last day In short, I suppose I should say this Repent Ye, Repent Ye all ye people of the earth for the time of the Lord is at hand. I will continue to repent, I ask you to do the same- for his message is the same to all Come unto me and unto any who comes unto Him He denies not.

You kind of missed the entire point of my post there...

I'll say the church was not in Mormon 8:38; when I hear another apostle say it, I'll consider it.
Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there is no sin in the Church. Anyone who says otherwise is naively ignorant, at best. And has no clue about all the prophecies and scriptures (especially DC) talked about for years in the Church, including GC. So let's skip the games.

Please return to the OP.
Do you believe, as many others on this thread do, that the CoJCoL-dS is in apostasy, yes or no?
Do you believe that Mormon 8:39 supports that claim of the Church being in apostasy, yes or no?
Do you believe that the LDS leaders have been called of God?

To equate "there is sin in the members of the Church" = "the Church is in apostasy" is horribly skewed, and shows that the person who does so, is a person in apostasy.

[John Tavner]

Regardless of whether you don't agree with I Am's interpretation of Mormon 8. I will be a second witness and testify that we are all wicked. There is no way we can look at ourselves and say we are righteous. Babylon has infiltrated us so utterly and completely that it is impossible to define us as a "peculiar" people anymore. We worship the work of our hands more than we worship God. If you don't believe me ask yourself or ask others how often they think of God more than they think of any other aspect of life. Are our hearts constantly turned towards the Lord, or towards money. I am a wicked man too, but am striving to repent and cry unto him all the day long - it is a process to change mindset. I will tell you that if we don't repent we will suffer, the writing is on the wall. Now is the day of our repentance and judgment is coming. So you don't have to believe I Am's interpretations, but as a second witness, I would say you/we should believe the call to repent and turn our hearts to the Lord once more and throw off Babylon and again Be in the world but not of it, otherwise those flaxen cords will be so tight around us that we will find we are wrapped in chains at the final day, this I promise.

And where do you stand, John Tavner? What will you repent of? It's ironic how those who oppose the work and word of the Lord, are those proclaiming so loudly that the Church--HIS church, and HIS anointed--need to repent, so much more than those opposing it. How do you explain that to God, when you pray to Him? How do you explain that to Jesus Christ, when you ask Him to forgive ... Who do you ask Jesus Christ to forgive, John Tavner? And for what sins?

Helaman 13:
24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.

27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.

28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.

29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?

What is the point of scripture if we do not apply it to our own day? Do you honestly believe scripture was written just so we could judge them and think that we are so much better by sitting on our rameumptoms and thanking God that we are so much better than our brethren? Would to God that isn't so. They are meant as a guide to teach of our day, to warn us so that we might repent and come unto Christ. You ask what I seek forgiveness for? Not two days past I felt extreme pain in my soul for sins that I helped cause others to commit though sins I had already repented of in the past. That pains me horribly. I know in whom I have trusted however, Christ Jesus, He is mighty to save. You see, for me I now feel pain not only for my own sins and desire welfare of my own soul, but what might I have done to cause others to stumble. I pray they will forgive me in the latter day and I know that whatever happens the the Lord's judgments are just and I will proclaim his name Holy Holy whatever happens. I am in the process of repenting by turning my heart to God. Almost every day and even multiple times a day I pray and ask for His grace to help me to Love Him with all my heart, might, mind, and strength; I seek and pray for the gift of charity becaues as Moroni stated it is the greatest of all gifts and all other gifts shail fail, but Charity never faileth; I ask for grace that I might have charity; I ask for the gift of revelation; I ask for the gift of prophecy; I ask for the gift of faith in God and in Christ; I ask the Lord to forgive me when I get angry and for Him to take that anger from my heart; I pray for them that despitefully use me; I ask the Lord to forgive them if they ahve wronged me, and if I have wronged them I ask the Lord to show me how and then how might fix it; I ask the Lord to bless those that I am angry with, that they might find peace and love and that He will shower whatever good blessings he has in store for them upon their heads. I ask that my heart be turned wholly toward Him. At night I strive to give gratitude with all my heart for all the blessings I have received from Him; at times my heart hurts because I can't express the love and gratitude I feel for Him for all that He has given me even though I am an unprofitable servant. I express gratitude for His tender mercies in everything He has given me because everything I am and everything that I do is because of Him. I seek and ask for the discerning of Spirits. I aks the Lord to help me give up my love for babylon so that I might leave and turn my heart wholly toward Him; I ask the Lord for the desire to give my whole life to Him. THen when I have the desire so that my intent is pure, I give my will to Him and seek to submit at all times to all things that He seeth fit to inflict upon me.

Do I fail at times, Yes, but I quickly or I strive to quickly return to His presence, because I love haveing the Spirit with me Always, it is such a comfort. Feeling His peace is joyful, when It is absent, then I ache. So that is who I am. I am not here to condemn, merely to express truth. THe truth is that we must all repent and leave Babylon. We are not a peculiar people. We love our tv shows more than God, we love our cars more than God, we love our work more than God, we love our homes more than God, we love video games more than God. We, in gneral do not seek Him on a daily basis. He is the last thing on our mind, often literally as we only think about Him when we pray to go to sleep at night. How can we claim to be a righteous people when this is who we are? How can we claim to be righteous when we are no differnt than our baptist, methodist, or even morally right agnostic friend? We can't. Ordinances to not save if our hearts are not right. Baptism doesn't help us if our heart is not right. The scriptures, esecially the Book of Mormon is exceedingly plain in this. I am not angry at anyone for this because until recently I was blind. I hope though that somehow, someway I might be an instrument in the Lord's hands in waking someone up so that they might seek the Lord a bit more and turn their heart towards Him rather than mammon.

For those that do seek the Lord with full purpose of heart, the Spirit will guide them in all things which to do and the atonement truly will lift them up and change them into a new person. HOwever, one must learn to cast off false traditions in order to truly follow the Spirit, for it will show unto us ALL things that we should do. I suppose the real question is do we believe the scriptures and if we do, have we read them. So feel free to accuse, because I know my heart is right as it can be before the Lord and these words will be a testimony in the last day In short, I suppose I should say this Repent Ye, Repent Ye all ye people of the earth for the time of the Lord is at hand. I will continue to repent, I ask you to do the same- for his message is the same to all Come unto me and unto any who comes unto Him He denies not.

You kind of missed the entire point of my post there...

I'll say the church was not in Mormon 8:38; when I hear another apostle say it, I'll consider it.
Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there is no sin in the Church. Anyone who says otherwise is naively ignorant, at best. And has no clue about all the prophecies and scriptures (especially DC) talked about for years in the Church, including GC. So let's skip the games.

Please return to the OP.
Do you believe, as many others on this thread do, that the CoJCoL-dS is in apostasy, yes or no?
Do you believe that Mormon 8:39 supports that claim of the Church being in apostasy, yes or no?
Do you believe that the LDS leaders have been called of God?

To equate "there is sin in the members of the Church" = "the Church is in apostasy" is horribly skewed, and shows that the person who does so, is a person in apostasy.

I believe the scriptures which state there are two churches only. The Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil. Given that not all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are members of the the Church of the the Lamb of God, I can't say that the church is the Church of the Lamb of God - therefore it is not His church. It is a church of members who merely proclaim to be members of His church crying Lord Lord, have we not cast out devils in thy name, and healed the sick? He will say unto many of us "Depart ye from me, ye never knew me." TCoJCoLDS was placed under condemnation in the 1800's and that has never been lifted. Furthermore, Joseph Smith repeatedly told the church they needed to repent before He died because of the great whoredoms that were occurring during Nauvoo. To claim this is His church, when we don't truly carry His name and to claim we are members of His church when we don't have His name written in our Hearts is blasphemy and heresy. We are the hypocrites. We can make it His church, if we all turn our hearts toward Him and stop relying upon our traditions and pharisaical acts to save us. When we learn it is only by and through the name of Jesus Christ and truly taking upon ourself His name, and then do so, then we will be saved and called members of His church and maintain membership as long as we endure to the end by submitting to every revelation that coms out of His mouth given to each one of us personally by the Holy Ghost. For the Holy Ghost will teach us all things that we should do.

Alma 4
6 And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.

7 Now this was the cause of much affliction to Alma, yea, and to many of the people whom Alma had consecrated to be teachers, and priests, and elders over the church; yea, many of them were sorely grieved for the wickedness which they saw had begun to be among their people.
8 For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began to be lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and to set their hearts upon riches and upon the vain things of the world, that they began to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure.

9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.

10 And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.

Notice at no point is the church called "His church." We have the authority by laying on of hands to act, but we certainly don't have the power. I have said all I can say on this matter. You can dismiss these words, but it will be to your condemnation. Seek the Lord in all things and He shall lead thee right. In case you were wondering I am also a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but sometimes I fail to live up to the Church of hte Lamb of God. Moreover, when all members are sinning to the extent we are, and worshiping the work of our own hands and the idols out that rather than God there is no better definition than apostasy. 1828 defintion of apostasy: An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion. We have deserted God and worship Idols almost every single one of us. Repent means to turn our hearts back and feel sorrow for what we have done. Thus we are in apostasy and need to repent.

[Zathura]

I'll say the church was not in Mormon 8:38; when I hear another apostle say it, I'll consider it.

I take issue with attitude. I find it likely that you would still doubt and wait for ANOTHER Apostle to agree with him after that. In addition to that, I simply don't understand why you would wait for a man to tell your what the correct interpretation of a scripture is unless that instruction was received in the same way D&C sections were. That's fine though, these are just my musings. . .

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there is no sin in the Church. Anyone who says otherwise is naively ignorant, at best. And has no clue about all the prophecies and scriptures (especially DC) talked about for years in the Church, including GC. So let's skip the games.

Please return to the OP.
Do you believe, as many others on this thread do, that the CoJCoL-dS is in apostasy, yes or no?
Do you believe that Mormon 8:39 supports that claim of the Church being in apostasy, yes or no?
Do you believe that the LDS leaders have been called of God?


To equate "there is sin in the members of the Church" = "the Church is in apostasy" is horribly skewed, and shows that the person who does so, is a person in apostasy.

I may just not be paying attention enough, but I don't see people equating those two things.
I guess it might help to know what you think apostasy is?

I don't personally think Priesthood and the Holy Ghost has been taken from the earth. I do think that some pretty grave mistakes and cover ups have occurred and that the people have been misguided in some ways, and the result is a belief in some traditions of man, misunderstanding of deeply important gospel doctrines like repentence, the Holy Ghost, forgiveness, leadership, priesthood and and overall sense of "all is well in Zion"

As a result, YES, I do believe Mormon 8 applies to the Church. I do believe that because of the above, pride has taken hold in the hearts of leaders and teachers of our church(I don't pretend to know WHO, but this includes the body of the church, I'm not singling GA's out), that our(the world collectively) churches, yay EVERY ONE(verse 36) have become polluted, that we love our money and apparel more than we love the sick and afflicted(verse 37)

I don't know if LDS leaders have been called of God. Maybe some of them? Maybe all of them? I've never received such an answer although there's no lack of effort in seeking one.

And where do you stand, John Tavner? What will you repent of? It's ironic how those who oppose the work and word of the Lord, are those proclaiming so loudly that the Church--HIS church, and HIS anointed--need to repent, so much more than those opposing it. How do you explain that to God, when you pray to Him? How do you explain that to Jesus Christ, when you ask Him to forgive ... Who do you ask Jesus Christ to forgive, John Tavner? And for what sins?

Posts like this are perplexing to me, I see them usually from Mark and co, but rarely do I see WHO they are talking about.

Who is "Those who oppose the work and word of the Lord". Is that Denver Snuffer? Is that John Tavner? Is that Stahura?
Is it anybody who questions policy changes? Who are these people you speak of?

I tried to look at John's post as objectively as I can, and I don't see how you can take issue with that post.

I can try to answer part of your question. Why would I think the Lord's Church and His anointed need to repent "so much more than those who oppose the church?"( I don't actually go around saying they need to repent, but for the sake of the argument let's pretend I am)

Because there are already plenty of people calling out those relatively few who oppose the church(I don't know who that is for you), why would my voice matter? I personally think it's more important to try and help the millions of people that have a false sense of security and those who may be assisting in spreading this false sense of security(even if they do this without realizing it)

EDIT: INB4 the posts I typically receive from my friends here saying "Oh Stahura you're so much better than everyone, step off of your pedastal!" We are all doing our best, I have come to believe something and I want to do something about it g that I believe would help my brothers and sisters in the Church. That's it. You can go about it your own way , I'll go about it my way.

[Rand]

I appreciate the tone of this most recent interchange above. Thanks to those involved.
You could help me gain greater understanding of your points if you would go one step further and answer a couple other questions.
As I read your posts, a couple of thoughts come to mind. The statement from the Lord that the "church was under condemnation" was given in the 84th section of the DC. After that time, God said "God is not pleased with some in the church.", "the lord commands the church to gather", "prepare the church for the redemption of Zion", "scriptures are published to build up the church", "Presidency is upheld by the confidence, faith and prayers of the church", "the Twelve build up and regulate the church in all nations", "duty of the President of the High Priesthood to preside over the whole church", and I could go on and on.
It seems that even thought the whole church was put under condemnation, they were not put away, it remained The Church of Jesus Christ.
So we then have the transition from Joseph to Brigham as the "President of the High Priesthood.
Do you think the keys remained active and viable in the Church of Jesus Christ with Brigham at the head?
And, if you do, did they continue after that?

I would make an observation about your comments. They seem to imply that "The Church" is made up of the whole of its members, or that The Church as an organization, with keys and priesthood, has fallen. Which of these is true, or if you don't agree with either, what is the reality in that regard according to your opinion.

[I AM]

Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.
“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted,
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted,
in consequence of their transgressions;

6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

oops - there's that word again "polluted"

D&C 105:
2 "Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer."

For this the Lord said that Zion would have to "wait for a little season"
D&C 105:
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should
wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

D&C 103

8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.

9 For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;

10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

11 But verily I say unto you, I have decreed that your brethren which have been scattered shall return to the lands of their inheritances, and shall build up the waste places of Zion.

12 For after much tribulation, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, cometh the blessing.

13 Behold, this is the blessing which I have promised after your tribulations, and the tribulations of your brethren—your redemption, and the redemption of your brethren, even their restoration to the land of Zion, to be established, no more to be thrown down.

14 Nevertheless, if they pollute their inheritances they shall be thrown down; for I will not spare them if they pollute their inheritances.


http://www.mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm

http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm
http://www.equip.org/article/unexplaini ... an-blacks/

"No prophet since Joseph Smith has really prophesied, acted as a seer or provided any significant revelation, except things like reversing Joseph Smith's polygamy revelations or reversing Brigham Young's (and succeeding prophets') ban on blacks receiving the priesthood. If we, as Latter-day Saints, believe Joseph Smith restored the gospel and was the first in a long line of prophets, then why have prophets since then not exhibited all of the same gifts that Joseph demonstrated and that the current Church teaches that existing prophets should have?"

"Brigham Young was quoted by three separate witnesses, as saying that “in the last days, the leaders of this Church will lead the members down to the brink of hell”. From all accounts that I have read, revelation ceased in the Church, immediately following the publication of the Manifesto in 1890, which ended plural marriage. Wilford Woodruff and the members of the Church turned their backs on the Lord. Therefore, the Lord has turned away from the Church – in affect, ending the “day of the gentiles”.

[I AM]

I copied this off the internet some years ago.

Signs that All is not well in Zion

In response to the thought: Joseph Smith was a true prophet, therefore the current church is true:

1 Thus saith the Lord, verily, verily I say unto you my son [Joseph Smith], thy sins are forgiven thee, according to thy petition, for thy prayers and the prayers of thy brethren have come up into my ears.
2 Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you; which kingdom is coming forth for the last time.
3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;
4 Nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church.
5 And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

Joseph still retains the keys. There's more to keys than appears at first glance. Such as the "the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and priesthood, and gifts of the priesthood" (D&C 124:95, describing keys promised to Hyrum when he was ordained a Patriarch). The Quorum of the 12 were given keys to preach the gospel, but these are different from those Joseph still holds. Neither Joseph, nor those who received the oracles from God (messages and revelations which Joseph had received) were promised that they could not fall. Where are we promised that a prophet cannot lead us astray? That directly contradicts Kings 13, and the many warnings to Joseph, Oliver & Sidney (all prophets) that they should be wary "lest they fall."

But moving on, what's an Oracle?

This is important to know, since "Many of the misunderstandings and differences of opinion in scriptural considerations result from a lack of definition of words and terminology, far more than in difference of opinion." ( The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg 136)

"Where there is a prophet, a priest, or a righteous man unto whom God gives his oracles, there is the kingdom of God; and where the oracles are not, there the kingdom of God is not." (Documentary History of the Church, Volume V, pg 257)

Without hearing the revelations word-for-word, how are we supposed to get that witness?

"If we do not get revelations," the prophet Joseph cautioned back in 1843, "we do not have the oracles of God. And if they do not have the oracles of God, they are not the people of God." (DHC, Supra)

In another revelation, the Lord tells Joseph that one of the purposes of the temple would be "for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations..." (D&C 124:39)

In religious contemplation, an oracle was never a human being. An oracle is a message that comes from "the divine other" which is spoken by the mouth of a human being. The Interpreter's Bible Dictionary traces oracle to the Hebrew word for "say," literally "speech, utterance, pronouncement." Oracle, in turn, comes to us from the same latin root as the words "oral" and "oratory" by way of the sanskrit asya, meaning "mouth."

The Oxford English Dictionary tells us that oracles are variously defined as "divine utterances" or "divine communications." In one or two places in the bible, the Urim and Thummim is referred to as an oracle, and oracle has been used to define the place in the ancient Jewish temple where divine utterances were received by the high priest. But an oracle is properly the "oratory" coming from the Divine, speaking through a medium such as the Urim and Thummim, or speaking through a prophet. Never is an oracle defined as the person receiving the divine utterance. That appears to have been a later etymological interpretation.

To all my fellow LDS, is the word of the Lord scarce in our days? Has anyone stepped forward claiming to speak for the Lord? Joseph did, and the Lord claimed those words as His own. Anyone else? When has a man, since Joseph, given us a "revelation" the way King Benjamin, Nephi, Alma, and so many others do in the Book of Mormon, saying "an angel came to me and said to say this..." Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore they speak the words of Christ (2 Ne. 32:1-3).

Is the word of the Lord "scarce" in our days, as it was in the days when the Lord called Samuel the boy prophet (don't forget that Eli was an authorized High Priest, with the Ark of the Covenant and hundreds of years of history, authority and tradition on his side) or in the Book of Mormon before King Benjamin was sent forth by the angel with a direct message? Is that how the Lord works? That is the only way He works according to the Book of Mormon.

Alma says it quite plainly:
"Now is the time to repent, for the day of salvation draweth nigh;
22 Yea, and the voice of the Lord, by the mouth of angels, doth declare it unto all nations; yea, doth declare it, that they may have glad tidings of great joy; yea, and he doth sound these glad tidings among all his people, yea, even to them that are scattered abroad upon the face of the earth; wherefore they have come unto us.
23 And they are made known unto us in plain terms, that we may understand, that we cannot err; and this because of our being wanderers in a strange land; therefore, we are thus highly favored, for we have these glad tidings declared unto us in all parts of our vineyard.
24 For behold, angels are declaring it unto many at this time in our land; and this is for the purpose of preparing the hearts of the children of men to receive his word at the time of his coming in his glory.
25 And now we only wait to hear the joyful news declared unto us by the mouth of angels, of his coming; for the time cometh, we know not how soon. Would to God that it might be in my day; but let it be sooner or later, in it I will rejoice.
26 And it shall be made known unto just and holy men, by the mouth of angels, at the time of his coming, that the words of our fathers may be fulfilled, according to that which they have spoken concerning him, which was according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them.
27 And now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words, and cast off your sins, and not procrastinate the day of your repentance"

Because the Lord sent Joseph by His own voice and the voice of angels, does that mean the Lord doesn't work that way anymore? If not, what does that mean?
Mormon, who saw our day, explains quite clearly what it means if we are not hearing "oracles," or plain-speak revelations from the Lord:

29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.
30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.
31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.
32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.
...
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. For no man can be saved..."

If we hear of no angels, we are not being led by God. We are not able to fully repent, and we do not see Him.

Some of us have seen Him.
We have been ministered to by angels, and by the Lord himself.

The Lord does not work in secret or in the dark. He does not reveal a "revelation" by secretly putting it in a handbook that .2% of members can read, then clarify that "revelation" by sending a PR release, then an apostle to explain, then finally, weeks later, to have it declared revelation in a university fireside. The Lord's course is an eternal round. He does not change, nor vary to the right nor the Left.
* my note - he is speaking about same sex marriage that supposedly was a revelation

IF it was a revelation, then where is the revelation? Where is the revelation in the Two "Official Declarations" in the back of our D&C? Where is the text from the Lord? Why does He work in plainness to the Nephites, but not to us? Do we not need it? In this day and age of sin, iniquity and mass media, where is His voice!?!

Those in Salt Lake have declared nothing. They speak with their lips, but they do not claim the power of Godliness. They deny it, in fact, and suggest that we should not seek to see the Lord, or to receive messengers from our Father. Adam (in the temple) refused religion (and the corresponding philosophies of men), and would only be taught by angels sent with a direct message from God. We know they only taught what they were given, because we are privy to God's words!

This has all been prophesied, by the Lord, in 3 Nephi 15-16, 20-21 and 26 (also 2 Ne 27-29, Mormon 8 and Ether 4). The Lord told us that the Gentiles (we are Gentiles according to D&C 109:60) would "reject the fulness of my Gospel."

Here is the quote from the Lord, who is quoting the Father by the way (see, the temple pattern matches that given in the Book of Mormon):

3 Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall reject my gospel. Can you reject a gift not offered you? Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has had the fulness of the gospel revealed to them, so only we can reject it?

At one time, the LDS Church lost the “fulless of the Priesthood.” In D&C 124 the Lord commands the people to build a temple:

D&C 124:28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

We rejected the fulness not once, but at least twice, but the Lord in His mercy has given us time to repent:

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received--

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written--

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion. (D&C 84).

I prophesy, using only the words of the scriptures, that "a scourge and judgment" will be "poured out upon the children of Zion." Where will it begin?

D&C 112:
Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

How can you know the Master if you've never seen Him? Or don't know His voice? How can you know His voice if His "servants" don't speak His words? Are they still His servants if they don't speak His words? How do you know they speak His words?

There's only one way. From the recent BYU-produced Interpreter article "To See and Hear":

Jeremiah warned the people of Jerusalem of the message of false prophets when he declared:

Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord. They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. (Jeremiah 23:16-17)

Jeremiah will give a clear-cut criterion for a true prophet sent by the Lord when he says, “For who hath stood in the counsel of the lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? Who hath marked his word, and heard it?” (Jeremiah 23:18). Hence, a prophet is specifically identified as one who “hath stood in the counsel of the lord, and hath perceived and heard [God’s] word” (Jeremiah 23:18). Although this English rendering captures the main concept, it lacks many of the nuances of the Hebrew text. In Jeremiah 23:18, “perceived” is the King James translation for the Hebrew verb ra’ah, which means, in its most basic sense, “to see.”

[Zathura]

I appreciate the tone of this most recent interchange above. Thanks to those involved.
You could help me gain greater understanding of your points if you would go one step further and answer a couple other questions.
As I read your posts, a couple of thoughts come to mind. The statement from the Lord that the "church was under condemnation" was given in the 84th section of the DC. After that time, God said "God is not pleased with some in the church.", "the lord commands the church to gather", "prepare the church for the redemption of Zion", "scriptures are published to build up the church", "Presidency is upheld by the confidence, faith and prayers of the church", "the Twelve build up and regulate the church in all nations", "duty of the President of the High Priesthood to preside over the whole church", and I could go on and on.
It seems that even thought the whole church was put under condemnation, they were not put away, it remained The Church of Jesus Christ.
So we then have the transition from Joseph to Brigham as the "President of the High Priesthood.
Do you think the keys remained active and viable in the Church of Jesus Christ with Brigham at the head?
And, if you do, did they continue after that?

I would make an observation about your comments. They seem to imply that "The Church" is made up of the whole of its members, or that The Church as an organization, with keys and priesthood, has fallen. Which of these is true, or if you don't agree with either, what is the reality in that regard according to your opinion.

To give you better insight into my thoughts, I’ll give you
Some background info.

Among the Presidents that followed Joseph’s death, it appears that the “transfiguration” of Brigham Young did not happen, at least the sources saying such a thing happened would never be accepted by any legitimate historian if we were discussing any other topic. The “succession crisis” boiled down to the remaining leaders reasoning among themselves util they settled with Brigham as the President once more.

Continuing on the succession over the years, it doesn’t appear every President was set apart for their calling. For years their belief was apparently that they were already set apart when they became Apostles and it would be redundant to do so upon becoming President of the Church. Then a couple of them were set apart, apparently they thought it necessary, but then another one wasn’t set apart again.( I can give more details if you want, I’m just giving you the general idea) .

In addition to that, they did not know who would become the next President. It most certainly was not the “most senior Apostle”. The rule they abided by changed many times. The brethren had debates about it, they comment about the topic in their journals, there was no revelation telling them to just go with the Senior Apostle. Eventually they decided on that and it became the precedent .( After John Taylor I believe). I’m not sure if you want sources or
Not, I just don’t want to derail the thread into something else .

Now, given all that, I need to make it clear that I think God does not always operate in black and white . I think he can give anybody power anytime anywhere.
I don’t think it would really matter if they didn’t set someone apart if God truly did call a man and bless him to be his Prophet.

The thing that might annoy some people is that I really haven’t come to any solid conclusion.
I think that the polygamy they practiced was an abomination that did not please God, it’s my opinion that they have operated largely without the type of Revelation that I used to think they receive(and what most members assume as well).

I don’t know if they were all called of God, I don’t know if a portion of them were called of God. I hope they were.

I think it’s probable that even in the event that God was displeased with all of them that the keys could have carried on, allowing them to still push the church forward. That would mean that even if all of the church Presidents weren’t “true Prophets” in the sense that Joseph was a prophet, they still had the proper keys to operate.

This probably sounds like nonsense to you, but as I have never come to a conclusion on what I believe has happened with keys, I can only offer you the things going through my mind on the topic.

If I go down the other route, and assume that all is dandy, they were all called of God and the keys absolutely remain no question, then I’m left to ponder on why we have an extremely watered down version of the Gospel we see in the scriptures and in Joseph’s time. This path delves into other paths like Priesthood power, manifestations of the Holy Ghost, revelations and the lack thereof. Again, I don’t want to derail the thread, but to me it’s obvious that these things are lacking in our church(in my own life as well, with the exception of some periods in my life).

Hence why I don’t really know how to give a straight answer to your question. I hope this wall of text gives you insight .

I guess again, it depends on what “fallen” means. Condemned but not cast off and burned?
Whether or not you believe the church is no longer under condemnation, we know there was at least a period where the church was under condemnation. Was the church “fallen” during that time? What was it’s status? I don’t know.

Truth be told, this topic isn’t extraordinarily important to me. I’ve spent most of my past 2 years reading and rereading the same verses in the Book of Mormon, studying a single topic(The Doctrine of Christ) and it’s really the only topic I’m passionate about because it’s the only topic I can say I DO KNOW, everything else I have received no answers or explanations from God . My Anchor is Christ, and the answer to everything we are discussing wouldn’t rattle my anchor in any way, hence why I just don’t have a passion for it.

Edit: List of scriptures I referenced that I prefer to spend time on.

a. Mosiah 4:2-12,
b. Mosiah 5:1-9
c. Alma 36:1-26
d. Helaman 5:35-45
e. 3 Nephi 11:31-40
f. 3 Nephi 19: 8-30
g. Enos 1:2-12
h. 2 Nephi 31:5-21
i. 2 Nephi 32:1-7
j. Moroni 7:35-48
k. Moroni 10:8-33
l. 1 Nephi 2:16
m. Alma 5:6-49
n. Alma 18:41 - Alma 19:1-29
o. Alma 22:14-23
p. Moses 6:64-68
q. Acts 2:1-5

[James Paul]

...Maybe these inconvenient facts need to be repeated until people get it and respond as God would have them. Mark, how many times did you repeat yourself on your mission? How many times have you heard the same thing in church? When you LIKE what is being said - repetition might be affirming. When you don’t like what is being said - even if true - it feels uncomfortable, like you don’t want to know or be reminded of certain truths. Some truths are hard to take. But our spiritual maturity and capacity to love effectively depend on our abilities to respond to truth - wherever it’s found.



You know what it comes down to? Praise of the world. Money in itself is not good or evil - but a tool - and when used to help those in need, as Christ repeatedly asked, it can bring about much good. When used to manipulate, over-charge for worthiness and refuse to share with those for whom it’s intended, while secretly hoarding or spending it based on worldly values - they are missing the mark & need to turn back to God.

• “O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?”

There appears to be 2 opposing groups who proclaim the other side is wrong. Who is ready to stake their Eternal Salvation on a belief that scriptures do not mean what they say. They were WRITTEN for the common man." Learned scholars need not apply" may be written on the cover of the next edition.
I TOO CAME ACROSS IT JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AS WE HAVE READ FOR YEARS THAT CERTAIN PARTS SHALL REMAIN HIDDEN UTIL LATER . It IS NOW nearly 50 years later for me and I just discovered at a couple of years ago. ONE reading was enough to wake me up. Perhaps the Lord makes things easier after we turn 80.

[Rand]

I appreciate the tone of this most recent interchange above. Thanks to those involved.
You could help me gain greater understanding of your points if you would go one step further and answer a couple other questions.
As I read your posts, a couple of thoughts come to mind. The statement from the Lord that the "church was under condemnation" was given in the 84th section of the DC. After that time, God said "God is not pleased with some in the church.", "the lord commands the church to gather", "prepare the church for the redemption of Zion", "scriptures are published to build up the church", "Presidency is upheld by the confidence, faith and prayers of the church", "the Twelve build up and regulate the church in all nations", "duty of the President of the High Priesthood to preside over the whole church", and I could go on and on.
It seems that even thought the whole church was put under condemnation, they were not put away, it remained The Church of Jesus Christ.
So we then have the transition from Joseph to Brigham as the "President of the High Priesthood.
Do you think the keys remained active and viable in the Church of Jesus Christ with Brigham at the head?
And, if you do, did they continue after that?

I would make an observation about your comments. They seem to imply that "The Church" is made up of the whole of its members, or that The Church as an organization, with keys and priesthood, has fallen. Which of these is true, or if you don't agree with either, what is the reality in that regard according to your opinion.

To give you better insight into my thoughts, I’ll give you
Some background info.

Among the Presidents that followed Joseph’s death, it appears that the “transfiguration” of Brigham Young did not happen, at least the sources saying such a thing happened would never be accepted by any legitimate historian if we were discussing any other topic. The “succession crisis” boiled down to the remaining leaders reasoning among themselves util they settled with Brigham as the President once more.

Continuing on the succession over the years, it doesn’t appear every President was set apart for their calling. For years their belief was apparently that they were already set apart when they became Apostles and it would be redundant to do so upon becoming President of the Church. Then a couple of them were set apart, apparently they thought it necessary, but then another one wasn’t set apart again.( I can give more details if you want, I’m just giving you the general idea) .

In addition to that, they did not know who would become the next President. It most certainly was not the “most senior Apostle”. The rule they abided by changed many times. The brethren had debates about it, they comment about the topic in their journals, there was no revelation telling them to just go with the Senior Apostle. Eventually they decided on that and it became the precedent .( After John Taylor I believe). I’m not sure if you want sources or
Not, I just don’t want to derail the thread into something else .

Now, given all that, I need to make it clear that I think God does not always operate in black and white . I think he can give anybody power anytime anywhere.
I don’t think it would really matter if they didn’t set someone apart if God truly did call a man and bless him to be his Prophet.

The thing that might annoy some people is that I really haven’t come to any solid conclusion.
I think that the polygamy they practiced was an abomination that did not please God, it’s my opinion that they have operated largely without the type of Revelation that I used to think they receive(and what most members assume as well).

I don’t know if they were all called of God, I don’t know if a portion of them were called of God. I hope they were.

I think it’s probable that even in the event that God was displeased with all of them that the keys could have carried on, allowing them to still push the church forward. That would mean that even if all of the church Presidents weren’t “true Prophets” in the sense that Joseph was a prophet, they still had the proper keys to operate.

This probably sounds like nonsense to you, but as I have never come to a conclusion on what I believe has happened with keys, I can only offer you the things going through my mind on the topic.

If I go down the other route, and assume that all is dandy, they were all called of God and the keys absolutely remain no question, then I’m left to ponder on why we have an extremely watered down version of the Gospel we see in the scriptures and in Joseph’s time. This path delves into other paths like Priesthood power, manifestations of the Holy Ghost, revelations and the lack thereof. Again, I don’t want to derail the thread, but to me it’s obvious that these things are lacking in our church(in my own life as well, with the exception of some periods in my life).

Hence why I don’t really know how to give a straight answer to your question. I hope this wall of text gives you insight .

I guess again, it depends on what “fallen” means. Condemned but not cast off and burned?
Whether or not you believe the church is no longer under condemnation, we know there was at least a period where the church was under condemnation. Was the church “fallen” during that time? What was it’s status? I don’t know.

Truth be told, this topic isn’t extraordinarily important to me. I’ve spent most of my past 2 years reading and rereading the same verses in the Book of Mormon, studying a single topic(The Doctrine of Christ) and it’s really the only topic I’m passionate about because it’s the only topic I can say I DO KNOW, everything else I have received no answers or explanations from God . My Anchor is Christ, and the answer to everything we are discussing wouldn’t rattle my anchor in any way, hence why I just don’t have a passion for it.

Edit: List of scriptures I referenced that I prefer to spend time on.

a. Mosiah 4:2-12,
b. Mosiah 5:1-9
c. Alma 36:1-26
d. Helaman 5:35-45
e. 3 Nephi 11:31-40
f. 3 Nephi 19: 8-30
g. Enos 1:2-12
h. 2 Nephi 31:5-21
i. 2 Nephi 32:1-7
j. Moroni 7:35-48
k. Moroni 10:8-33
l. 1 Nephi 2:16
m. Alma 5:6-49
n. Alma 18:41 - Alma 19:1-29
o. Alma 22:14-23
p. Moses 6:64-68
q. Acts 2:1-5

You are on an interesting journey. Thank you for your thorough answer. It is so interesting how all of us are challenged in one way or the other, some of us by what we have and some of us by what we don't have.

My father lived out the last years of his life enduring in faith to the end, with no witness of the spirit that he was on the right track at all. But, at the very end, meaning the last few days, God allowed him a number of tender mercies that confirmed he had done well. I so admire that kind of faith. So, in the same way, I appreciate your journey.
It helps me see more clearly the basis of your comments, and thus understand better what you are saying. Thank you.

It would seem to me that you have the gift to know that Jesus is the Christ, but not the gift to know that his prophet is a prophet. I know I have been blessed with the knowledge that the current prophet and each prophet of this dispensation have been prophets, but I have had to earn the one you have been blessed with.

I think many on this forum have testimonies that both Jesus is the Christ, and that the President of the Church is his prophet, and get very defensive when some proclaim Christ, but disregard or seem to criticize the man they believe to be his living prophet.

Can I suggest that if you want to ponder on the pattern the Savior set that is manifest in the Church today, look at how Christ presented himself to his disciples in the Americas. They all got the personal introduction and visit with him, but then they had to approach him through his chosen servants. I believe this to be an important part of coming unto him.

I will spend some time on the scriptures you have listed. I have never singled out that topic. Thanks for sharing.

[John Tavner]

I appreciate the tone of this most recent interchange above. Thanks to those involved.
You could help me gain greater understanding of your points if you would go one step further and answer a couple other questions.
As I read your posts, a couple of thoughts come to mind. The statement from the Lord that the "church was under condemnation" was given in the 84th section of the DC. After that time, God said "God is not pleased with some in the church.", "the lord commands the church to gather", "prepare the church for the redemption of Zion", "scriptures are published to build up the church", "Presidency is upheld by the confidence, faith and prayers of the church", "the Twelve build up and regulate the church in all nations", "duty of the President of the High Priesthood to preside over the whole church", and I could go on and on.
It seems that even thought the whole church was put under condemnation, they were not put away, it remained The Church of Jesus Christ.
So we then have the transition from Joseph to Brigham as the "President of the High Priesthood.
Do you think the keys remained active and viable in the Church of Jesus Christ with Brigham at the head?
And, if you do, did they continue after that?

I would make an observation about your comments. They seem to imply that "The Church" is made up of the whole of its members, or that The Church as an organization, with keys and priesthood, has fallen. Which of these is true, or if you don't agree with either, what is the reality in that regard according to your opinion.

To give you better insight into my thoughts, I’ll give you
Some background info.

Among the Presidents that followed Joseph’s death, it appears that the “transfiguration” of Brigham Young did not happen, at least the sources saying such a thing happened would never be accepted by any legitimate historian if we were discussing any other topic. The “succession crisis” boiled down to the remaining leaders reasoning among themselves util they settled with Brigham as the President once more.

Continuing on the succession over the years, it doesn’t appear every President was set apart for their calling. For years their belief was apparently that they were already set apart when they became Apostles and it would be redundant to do so upon becoming President of the Church. Then a couple of them were set apart, apparently they thought it necessary, but then another one wasn’t set apart again.( I can give more details if you want, I’m just giving you the general idea) .

In addition to that, they did not know who would become the next President. It most certainly was not the “most senior Apostle”. The rule they abided by changed many times. The brethren had debates about it, they comment about the topic in their journals, there was no revelation telling them to just go with the Senior Apostle. Eventually they decided on that and it became the precedent .( After John Taylor I believe). I’m not sure if you want sources or
Not, I just don’t want to derail the thread into something else .

Now, given all that, I need to make it clear that I think God does not always operate in black and white . I think he can give anybody power anytime anywhere.
I don’t think it would really matter if they didn’t set someone apart if God truly did call a man and bless him to be his Prophet.

The thing that might annoy some people is that I really haven’t come to any solid conclusion.
I think that the polygamy they practiced was an abomination that did not please God, it’s my opinion that they have operated largely without the type of Revelation that I used to think they receive(and what most members assume as well).

I don’t know if they were all called of God, I don’t know if a portion of them were called of God. I hope they were.

I think it’s probable that even in the event that God was displeased with all of them that the keys could have carried on, allowing them to still push the church forward. That would mean that even if all of the church Presidents weren’t “true Prophets” in the sense that Joseph was a prophet, they still had the proper keys to operate.

This probably sounds like nonsense to you, but as I have never come to a conclusion on what I believe has happened with keys, I can only offer you the things going through my mind on the topic.

If I go down the other route, and assume that all is dandy, they were all called of God and the keys absolutely remain no question, then I’m left to ponder on why we have an extremely watered down version of the Gospel we see in the scriptures and in Joseph’s time. This path delves into other paths like Priesthood power, manifestations of the Holy Ghost, revelations and the lack thereof. Again, I don’t want to derail the thread, but to me it’s obvious that these things are lacking in our church(in my own life as well, with the exception of some periods in my life).

Hence why I don’t really know how to give a straight answer to your question. I hope this wall of text gives you insight .

I guess again, it depends on what “fallen” means. Condemned but not cast off and burned?
Whether or not you believe the church is no longer under condemnation, we know there was at least a period where the church was under condemnation. Was the church “fallen” during that time? What was it’s status? I don’t know.

Truth be told, this topic isn’t extraordinarily important to me. I’ve spent most of my past 2 years reading and rereading the same verses in the Book of Mormon, studying a single topic(The Doctrine of Christ) and it’s really the only topic I’m passionate about because it’s the only topic I can say I DO KNOW, everything else I have received no answers or explanations from God . My Anchor is Christ, and the answer to everything we are discussing wouldn’t rattle my anchor in any way, hence why I just don’t have a passion for it.

Edit: List of scriptures I referenced that I prefer to spend time on.

a. Mosiah 4:2-12,
b. Mosiah 5:1-9
c. Alma 36:1-26
d. Helaman 5:35-45
e. 3 Nephi 11:31-40
f. 3 Nephi 19: 8-30
g. Enos 1:2-12
h. 2 Nephi 31:5-21
i. 2 Nephi 32:1-7
j. Moroni 7:35-48
k. Moroni 10:8-33
l. 1 Nephi 2:16
m. Alma 5:6-49
n. Alma 18:41 - Alma 19:1-29
o. Alma 22:14-23
p. Moses 6:64-68
q. Acts 2:1-5

I follow somewhat along Stahura's way of thinking. It wasn't until about a year ago I began to really read the scriptures, not only read them, but prayed for understanding as I've read them, moreover humbling myself and striving for a broken heart and contrite spirit while I read them. As I have read and begun to believe in the scriptures I have noticed some things don't line up. The words really are delicious and sweet. They are filling to the soul! As an aside, when I speak my goal isn't to draw people away from the President of the Church or to have people lose their testimony. I have the view that if it draws you closer to the Savior do it! As Stahura said, the Doctrine of Christ is the MOST important thing and for me, I've noticed that too often it's teachings are woefully absent or misunderstood in local wards and areas - and I have along with the other scriptures he mentioined, teaches us how we are to live our lives. It teaches us what we are supposed to do and it taught me what I haven't done. My words are only to warn us to repent. I still attend my meetings, I still testify of Christ and hold callings. I don't run around telling people not to listen to the President of the Church, but I do teach them the words of Christ, for they are sweet.

I have, through much fasting and prayer, received through the Lord an answer that the church organization as we know it will collapse. It must in order for Zion to be created. We as a people are living in iniquity. There is no way around that. We have become like unto the Jews of old where we beleive that the ordinances themselves save us. I don't condemn anyone for these views, I had them my entire life until recently. Truly reading the doctrine of Christ teaches us there is so much more. Baptism is more than just the ordinance, it requires an actual chagne of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost is not something that is automatically given just because someone lays their hands on your head - there is much more required. All these truths are found in the scriptures. Almost every single book in the Book of Mormon teaches us how to seek God. They give examples. The scriptures are plain, but until I submitted to the Lord in all things(a requirement found in the doctrine of CHrist) I was blind to the plainness of the scriptures and the scales of darkness have slowly fallen from my mind. Even now I struggle because of traditions of men. I am constantly wanting to seek out men to learn about God, rather than me realizing that if I want to learn about God, I can ask Him directly. That is what is so powerful about the scriptures, that is what is so powerful about the Doctrine of Christ, we are to do ALL things the Spirit tells us to do, we must constantly submit and give up everything we want and let go of preconceived notions and then the Lord guides us as we ask. Every question I have when I seek after man's interpretation - the thought of "have ye inquired of the Lord" often comes to mind. If I haven't how iniquitous am I? I am like Laman and Lemuel. Anyways, like I said, I don't want to drive anyone from the church or make them lose their faith in Christ, I want them to make Christ the center of their lives and if they do, they will rejoice and find peace even in the midst of turmoil. He is mighty to save and only asks that we come unto Him, not to others. Others are merely meant to teach us to come unto Him - in all things.