It was a great relief to meet my husband who thinks the same on almost every topic as I do. We all need that hahaDurzan wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 4:22 pmSorry, my apologies.
Fixed.
Trust me, my dear... you have no idea.Edit: You are probably equally exasperating
Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
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ElizaRSkousen
- captain of 100
- Posts: 746
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
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ElizaRSkousen
- captain of 100
- Posts: 746
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
It is kind of dissapointing that we talk about the same stuff on the forum. I wish it was different but we all think so differently that we can’t get very deep.Durzan wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 4:22 pmSorry, my apologies.
Fixed.
Trust me, my dear... you have no idea.Edit: You are probably equally exasperating
- Durzan
- The Lord's Trusty Maverick
- Posts: 3752
- Location: Standing between the Light and the Darkness.
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Well, honestly... there's only so much you can talk about before you end up running around in circles. And some topics there isn't much to really say about in the first place.ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 4:41 pmIt is kind of dissapointing that we talk about the same stuff on the forum. I wish it was different but we all think so differently that we can’t get very deep.Durzan wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 4:22 pmSorry, my apologies.
Fixed.
Trust me, my dear... you have no idea.Edit: You are probably equally exasperating
My exasperation comes from the fact that there are certain users who those things are all they seem to talk about.
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I AM
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------justme wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:43 pmThen I respectfully disagree.ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:41 pmI do mean the institutional church and general membership.justme wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:39 pmI agree that falling away is a very ambiguous term. I do not believe we are in apostasy if by we you mean the institutional church and general membership.ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:34 pm
Yes
I don’t know what you mean by fall away, you and I probably have different ‘lines’ for that. I do believe we are in an apostasy. I don’t believe we are bad enough to be destroyed yet.
As for the Joseph Smith quote, I think he meant that for those people, not us.
Sometimes the majority can be wrong
And I agree sometime the majority can be wrong.
However it may come down to the dividing line between the terms imperfection and apostasy. Could you provide some examples of what you mean by apostasy?
FORTUNATELY we don't have to just rely on Mormon 8:38
to prove that we are in apostasy.
http://www.mormon8-38.com/
yblds.com
I have posted in the past so many scriptures from Isaiah and The Book of Mormon that show this.
But I'm tired of doing it for everyone that comes along that doesn't study the scriptures and that thinks that "all is well in Zion"; when anyone with eyes can clearly see that it's not.
Go to "advanced search" and put in "apostasy" and search for posts with my name "I AM"
We don't even need all these scriptures that tell of our apostasy and show that we
are no longer a peculiar people, and have worked VERY HARD
(at making a lot of money)
and fitting into Babylon, and have strayed from the "restored gospel" ,
when it was first restored through Joseph Smith from Jesus Christ in it's "PERFECT" state.
All we have to do is to look (and look into) at the changes the church has made in the past 150 years;
especially more recently, in our days now.
Search yourself; these so called "revelations", have been nothing more than decisions made by church leaders, because of the pressures of society - put on them from Babylon,
so we as a church can grow and be accepted in Babylon.
Last edited by I AM on February 8th, 2019, 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Thinker
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- Location: The Universe - wherever that is.
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
It’s estimated that about 70% of people go along with things even when they know they’re incorrect - for social (praise of the world) reasons. I’d guess more than that.


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endlessQuestions
- Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
I've thought about this topic quite a bit, but never in that way. Thanks for giving me something to think about.
- 1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor. Christ was about alleviating
Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they
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endlessQuestions
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Hi IAM, I've noticed a few of your posts lately. Do you see yourself as a Jeremiah or a Lehi, here to warn people that the church has drifted into apostasy? I'm trying to figure out why someone with these beliefs would bang their head on the brick wall called LDS Freedom Forum over and over again.I AM wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 5:33 pm----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------justme wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:43 pmThen I respectfully disagree.ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:41 pmI do mean the institutional church and general membership.
However it may come down to the dividing line between the terms imperfection and apostasy. Could you provide some examples of what you mean by apostasy?
FORTUNATELY we don't have to just rely on Mormon 8:38
to prove that we are in apostasy.
http://www.mormon8-38.com/
yblds.com
I have posted in the past so many scriptures from Isaiah and The Book of Mormon that show this.
But I'm tired of doing it for everyone that comes along that doesn't study the scriptures and that thinks that "all is well in Zion"; when anyone with eyes can clearly see that it's not.
Go to "advanced search" and put in "apostasy" and search for posts with my name "I AM"
We don't even need all these scriptures that tell of our apostasy and show that we
are no longer a peculiar people, and have worked VERY HARD
(at making a lot of money)
and fitting into Babylon, and have strayed from the "restored gospel" ,
when it was first restored through Joseph Smith from Jesus Christ in it's "PERFECT" state.
All we have to do is to look (and look into) at the changes the church has made in the past 150 years;
especially more recently, in our days now.
Search yourself; these so called "revelations", have been nothing more than decisions made by church leaders, because of the pressures of society - put on them from Babylon,
so we as a church can grow and be accepted in Babylon.
Just curious, not judging...
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I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
------------------------------------------endlessismyname wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 8:14 pmHi IAM, I've noticed a few of your posts lately. Do you see yourself as a Jeremiah or a Lehi, here to warn people that the church has drifted into apostasy? I'm trying to figure out why someone with these beliefs would bang their head on the brick wall called LDS Freedom Forum over and over again.I AM wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 5:33 pm----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------justme wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:43 pmThen I respectfully disagree.ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:41 pm
I do mean the institutional church and general membership.
However it may come down to the dividing line between the terms imperfection and apostasy. Could you provide some examples of what you mean by apostasy?
FORTUNATELY we don't have to just rely on Mormon 8:38
to prove that we are in apostasy.
http://www.mormon8-38.com/
yblds.com
I have posted in the past so many scriptures from Isaiah and The Book of Mormon that show this.
But I'm tired of doing it for everyone that comes along that doesn't study the scriptures and that thinks that "all is well in Zion"; when anyone with eyes can clearly see that it's not.
Go to "advanced search" and put in "apostasy" and search for posts with my name "I AM"
We don't even need all these scriptures that tell of our apostasy and show that we
are no longer a peculiar people, and have worked VERY HARD
(at making a lot of money)
and fitting into Babylon, and have strayed from the "restored gospel" ,
when it was first restored through Joseph Smith from Jesus Christ in it's "PERFECT" state.
All we have to do is to look (and look into) at the changes the church has made in the past 150 years;
especially more recently, in our days now.
Search yourself; these so called "revelations", have been nothing more than decisions made by church leaders, because of the pressures of society - put on them from Babylon,
so we as a church can grow and be accepted in Babylon.
Just curious, not judging...
so do I HAVE TO WANT TO BE a "Jeremiah or a Lehi"
to want to know the truth, and when found, tell others about it ?
I'm only quoting what's already there from great prophets in our scriptures.
The warnings and truths are there for ALL to read, but members do not read the scriptures.
A well known LDS writer once wrote a
foreword in a book and said -
"This book might well be entitled
"What you always wanted to know about the Gospel
but were too lazy to find out."
"All answers are in the scriptures, but Latter-day Saints
do not read the scriptures."
Hugh Nibley
READ OUR SCRIPTURES !
All the answers are contained in them.
We should all be watchman and be sounding the alarm.
If a tidal wave was coming and going to wipe out your house
wouldn't you be SCREAMING ! ! !
Isaiah 21
6 Because of this my Lord said to me,
Go and appoint a watchman
who will report what he sees.
7 Let him watch for chariots with teams of horses,
riders on asses and riders on camels.
He must be most vigilant, fully alert.
The prophet’s appointing a “watchman” who reports what he sees implies that some watchmen don’t report what they see, or don’t see at all. Both kinds appear in Isaiah’s end-time scenario: (1) watchmen who see and hear and report it (v 10; Isaiah 52:8; 62:6); and (2) watchmen who are blind and unaware (Isaiah 29:10; 56:10). Because the term “watchman” designates a prophet (Jeremiah 31:6; Ezekiel 3:17), Jehovah’s appointing a prophet who warns of Babylon’s imminent destruction forms the type of his end-time servant who serves as a watchman to Jehovah’s people (Isaiah 41:27; 48:16; 55:4).
8 Then the lookoutb cried,
I have been standing on the watchtower
day in and day out, my Lord;
night after night I have stood guard.
9 Now they come: cavalry and teams of horses!
And he gave the reply,
She has fallen; Babylon has fallen.
All her idol gods he has razed to the ground.
The watchman’s vigilance throughout the warning period pays off as he sees the approaching destruction and sounds the alarm. Babylon’s fall at the hands of the Assyrian power means the collapse of the entire socio-economic structure of Isaiah’s Greater Babylon that involves the manufacture, promotion, and sale of its “idol gods”—the works of men’s hands (Isaiah 2:8, 18, 20; 17:8; 19:1, 3; 27:9; 30:22; 36:18-20; 37:12, 18-19; 42:8, 17; 44:9-20; 45:20; 46:1-2; Jeremiah 51:8, 49; Revelation 14:8; 18:2). Razed to the ground, they prove useless because they save no one in the end (Isaiah 46:6-7).
10 cTo you who know me, who are of my fold,c
I have reported what I heard
from Jehovah of Hosts, the God of Israel.
The prophet’s last warning is reserved for Jehovah’s elect, those “who know me, who are of my fold.” Because the prophet’s disciples are privy to his teachings—“Bind up the testimony; seal the law among my disciples” (Isaiah 8:16)—he informs them of what he sees and hears. They exit Babylon at the time of its destruction in a new exodus to Zion: “Turn away, depart; touch nothing defiled as you leave [Babylon]. Come out of her and be pure, you who bear Jehovah’s vessels. But you shall not leave in haste or go in flight: Jehovah will go before you, the God of Israel behind you” (Isaiah 52:11-12).
11 An oracle concerning Dumah:
Men call to me from Seir,
Watchman, what remains of the night?
Watchman, how much of the night is left?
12 The watchman replies,
Morning comes, though it is still night.
If you would ascertain it,
do so by repenting and coming back.
Some who don’t exit Greater Babylon in the new exodus to Zion, but who nevertheless attempt to survive through that dark time, appeal to Jehovah’s servant how long the “night”—the Day of Judgment—will yet last. Rather than telling what he knows, the servant responds by turning their hearts from him toward their God, suggesting they should spend the current duration of time for what Jehovah intended: “by repenting and coming back.” Then they would know for themselves that the “morning”—the millennial age—is drawing near but that Jehovah’s Day of Judgment hasn’t yet served its purpose.
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JohnnyL
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 9984
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Hmm... WoW has *MULTIPLE* PROPHETS/PRESIDENTS and apostles saying it's a commandment; "but it's not".
ONE apostle gave this interpretation, so "it's definitely true".
Seems like a strong case of confirmation bias.
Mormon is NOT talking about the LDS Church.
When JS translated the BoM, there was no "LDS Church".
ONE apostle gave this interpretation, so "it's definitely true".
Seems like a strong case of confirmation bias.
Mormon is NOT talking about the LDS Church.
When JS translated the BoM, there was no "LDS Church".
Last edited by JohnnyL on February 12th, 2019, 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Jesef
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
This would be a good candidate thread for my proposed Heterodox/Un-Orthodox/Heretic Sub-Forum! Please vote here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50651
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50651
- JK4Woods
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
I'm not sure how many forum participants have rubbed elbows with General Authorities, aside from them standing at a pulpit, and me sitting in the audience. The half dozen I have associated with have been regular people, when "off duty". Subject to all of the plights we ourselves find ourselves in from time to time. I think apostasy is such a strong word for the describing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as drifting away from the ambitious beginnings during Joseph Smith's time.
Like kids need a bunch of reminders to brush their teeth, and tie their shoes, and later as teenagers to do their chores and practice whatever they are trying to get good at, the Early Restored Church needed a lot of corrective guidance from a loving Heavenly Father to get it pointed in the right direction.
We as adults, know what we are supposed to be doing, and don't really need a lot of input in the basics. We are expected to keep steaming along and be fruitful by our own labors.
Consequently, I wonder how much REAL REVELATION is coming down from Heaven to our General Authorities. During most of my 42 years since joining the Church while stationed in Korea, I have recognized a few bright spots of new Revealed information as presented. I don't expect the GA's to be continually getting a direct revelatory experience on a daily basis, (or even on an annual basis). Everyone knows what we should be doing. If we aren't doing what we are supposed to, then the General Leadership keeps trying to phrase things in a different way to catch our attention and hopefully help us regain traction in doing whats right and correct.
That is not to say the GA's don't get impressions and minor inspiration when they ask for it. I'm just saying I'm not surprised we haven't had great big REVELATIONS on a frequent basis. (Big REVELATIONS of the sort to add a section to the D&C).
President Nelson is intimidating that big changes are just over the horizon. Seem to me he is one who is looking down range, and is not content to maintain the status quo.
Our job is to follow the Prophet, and if he is found to be barking up the wrong tree (Real Estate Investments, etc. etc). Then the sin be upon his head. He is our leader and it is our duty to at least try and implement into our own lives what is being directed to us from over the pulpit.
Like kids need a bunch of reminders to brush their teeth, and tie their shoes, and later as teenagers to do their chores and practice whatever they are trying to get good at, the Early Restored Church needed a lot of corrective guidance from a loving Heavenly Father to get it pointed in the right direction.
We as adults, know what we are supposed to be doing, and don't really need a lot of input in the basics. We are expected to keep steaming along and be fruitful by our own labors.
Consequently, I wonder how much REAL REVELATION is coming down from Heaven to our General Authorities. During most of my 42 years since joining the Church while stationed in Korea, I have recognized a few bright spots of new Revealed information as presented. I don't expect the GA's to be continually getting a direct revelatory experience on a daily basis, (or even on an annual basis). Everyone knows what we should be doing. If we aren't doing what we are supposed to, then the General Leadership keeps trying to phrase things in a different way to catch our attention and hopefully help us regain traction in doing whats right and correct.
That is not to say the GA's don't get impressions and minor inspiration when they ask for it. I'm just saying I'm not surprised we haven't had great big REVELATIONS on a frequent basis. (Big REVELATIONS of the sort to add a section to the D&C).
President Nelson is intimidating that big changes are just over the horizon. Seem to me he is one who is looking down range, and is not content to maintain the status quo.
Our job is to follow the Prophet, and if he is found to be barking up the wrong tree (Real Estate Investments, etc. etc). Then the sin be upon his head. He is our leader and it is our duty to at least try and implement into our own lives what is being directed to us from over the pulpit.
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justme
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- Posts: 1971
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
What a wonderful post. It is almost as if you are using common sense to understand the church and its leaders in a real life context. I didn't think common sense was permitted around hereJK4Woods wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 2:57 pm I'm not sure how many forum participants have rubbed elbows with General Authorities, aside from them standing at a pulpit, and me sitting in the audience. The half dozen I have associated with have been regular people, when "off duty". Subject to all of the plights we ourselves find ourselves in from time to time. I think apostasy is such a strong word for the describing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as drifting away from the ambitious beginnings during Joseph Smith's time.
Like kids need a bunch of reminders to brush their teeth, and tie their shoes, and later as teenagers to do their chores and practice whatever they are trying to get good at, the Early Restored Church needed a lot of corrective guidance from a loving Heavenly Father to get it pointed in the right direction.
We as adults, know what we are supposed to be doing, and don't really need a lot of input in the basics. We are expected to keep steaming along and be fruitful by our own labors.
Consequently, I wonder how much REAL REVELATION is coming down from Heaven to our General Authorities. During most of my 42 years since joining the Church while stationed in Korea, I have recognized a few bright spots of new Revealed information as presented. I don't expect the GA's to be continually getting a direct revelatory experience on a daily basis, (or even on an annual basis). Everyone knows what we should be doing. If we aren't doing what we are supposed to, then the General Leadership keeps trying to phrase things in a different way to catch our attention and hopefully help us regain traction in doing whats right and correct.
That is not to say the GA's don't get impressions and minor inspiration when they ask for it. I'm just saying I'm not surprised we haven't had great big REVELATIONS on a frequent basis. (Big REVELATIONS of the sort to add a section to the D&C).
President Nelson is intimidating that big changes are just over the horizon. Seem to me he is one who is looking down range, and is not content to maintain the status quo.
Our job is to follow the Prophet, and if he is found to be barking up the wrong tree (Real Estate Investments, etc. etc). Then the sin be upon his head. He is our leader and it is our duty to at least try and implement into our own lives what is being directed to us from over the pulpit.
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JohnnyL
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 9984
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
- John Tavner
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4327
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
You are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
- investigator
- captain of 100
- Posts: 690
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 8:48 pmYou are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
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JohnnyL
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 9984
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Yes, and?John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 8:48 pmYou are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
- John Tavner
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4327
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Notice I said line, not sentence.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:20 amYes, and?John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 8:48 pmYou are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
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JohnnyL
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 9984
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Right, so some people want more rules, more commandments, more doctrine, so they can "feel good and safe" that the prophets really are prophets. Yet, when they are given (WoW changes to commandment, for example), the some people reject them.investigator wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 5:40 amJohn Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 8:48 pmYou are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
What some people really need is a testimony--not "proof" that the prophets really are prophets.
BTW, I have no idea what you mean by that quote.
Last edited by JohnnyL on February 13th, 2019, 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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JohnnyL
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 9984
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
I'm seeing that the last line is that. Did you have a comment you wanted a response to?John Tavner wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:21 amNotice I said line, not sentence.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:20 amYes, and?John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 8:48 pmYou are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
- John Tavner
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4327
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
This is your last line:JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:25 amI'm seeing that the last line is that. Did you have a comment you wanted a response to?John Tavner wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:21 amNotice I said line, not sentence.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:20 amYes, and?John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 8:48 pm
You are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.
"Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation."
Beyond that, nope, I've said my peace on the matter.
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JohnnyL
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 9984
Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
That's my last paragraph... Oh well.John Tavner wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:27 amThis is your last line:
"Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation."
Beyond that, nope, I've said my peace on the matter.
- John Tavner
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Ahh, well maybe we are looking at it with different devices (computer for me so it doesn't really show up as a paragraph, more a line). Either way, now at least we know what each other was saying.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:30 amThat's my last paragraph... Oh well.John Tavner wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 10:27 amThis is your last line:
"Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation."
Beyond that, nope, I've said my peace on the matter.
- topcat
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
If the leaders are not perfect, that means they can lead us astray. Agreed?justme wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:25 pmYes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑February 8th, 2019, 3:14 pmYou can stand with the lord and his church and still know it needs to be set in order.
Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.
Please name one example of a leader who has been held accountable, and publicly reprimanded or corrected or reproved for the error taught or done.
This type of correction never (I don't think this is an overstatement or exaggeration at all) happens at the top of the church, and I've never seen it happen at the stake president or bishop level and I've been a member for 30 years.
Therefore if no corrections are being made, then that means the institution is way off course, i.e., apostate. It means that all leaders have each other's backs. It means that they are going along to get along. It means that all leaders' eyes are on the institution, and not the Lord. In a nutshell, it means what Mormon 8:38 says: the holy church of God has become polluted.
- topcat
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
Yes, JohnnyL is literally fulfilling scripture. And the scripture that comes to mind is:John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 8:48 pmYou are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
2 Nephi 28:
And JohnnyL is in "good" company:29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
President Hinckley explained more about his role as prophet for the church in a 1997 interview with the San Francisco Chronicle:
Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?
A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received.
Last edited by topcat on February 14th, 2019, 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
- John Tavner
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Re: Mormon 8:38 and apostasy
To clarify. JohnnyL was the commenter I was responding to, not Justme.topcat wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 6:28 amYes, Justme is literally fulfilling scripture. And the scripture that comes to mind is:John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 8:48 pmYou are literally fulfilling scripture by making this comment -especially the last line.JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 12th, 2019, 7:27 pm Well, how much revelation do people get in their own lives? church callings?
GA's need revelation for calling GA's, patriarchs, stake presidents, missionaries, temple presidents, mission presidents, etc. Also, how to manage the church, including buildings, temples, projects, welfare, etc.
If you're expecting them all to be right about everything, keep dreaming.
If you expect me to believe a member over the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and the Presiding Bishopric, nope.
If stake presidents and bishops are doing it right, they are receiving revelation respectively for all stake and ward callings (other than EQ, to a degree).
Most all the revelation now is about running the church. We have enough for everything else. Heck, we had enough before most of the DC. After the harvest, I have no doubt there will be more doctrinal revelation.
2 Nephi 28:
And Justme is in "good" company:29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
President Hinckley explained more about his role as prophet for the church in a 1997 interview with the San Francisco Chronicle:
Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?
A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received.
