Mormon 8:38 and apostasy

[justme]

I have seen Mormon 8:38 mentioned several times in recent threads with the interpretation that it is speaking of our restored church. With a lifetime of reading the Book of Mormon that interpretation never occurred to me. Nor does it seem right now that I reread it.

Some lines of discussion goes as follows. Member A has strong feelings about subject X. They say that the Church will never change on subject X. If you asked what would they think if the Church did change, they refer to Mormon 8:38 and say that the Church and its leaders are wrong, not them.

I think this is a dangerous path regardless of what subject X is. We don't know everything about every subject yet but we are promised that many things will yet be revealed. Is it not safer to wait for such revelations and spiritual confirmation rather than to say NEVER now.

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

[Col. Flagg]

City Creek.
$32 billion in the stock market.
3% of the landmass of Florida.
Real estate projects.
Big business.

'nough said.

[investigator]

Would you like to here it directly from one of the Quorum of the 12?

Elder L. Tom Perry stated the following.

“Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifs, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.) “ L Tom Perry October 1992 General Conference.

[justme]

Would you like to here it directly from one of the Quorum of the 12?

Elder L. Tom Perry stated the following.

“Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifs, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.


“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.) “ L Tom Perry October 1992 General Conference.

But still I ask is this about our church itself going into apostasy or with individuals within it and in other churches?

[investigator]

Would you like to here it directly from one of the Quorum of the 12?

Elder L. Tom Perry stated the following.

“Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifs, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.


“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.) “ L Tom Perry October 1992 General Conference.

But still I ask is this about our church itself going into apostasy or with individuals within it and in other churches?

your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

[LucianAMD]

Would you like to here it directly from one of the Quorum of the 12?

Elder L. Tom Perry stated the following.

“Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:
“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifs, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.


“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.) “ L Tom Perry October 1992 General Conference.

But still I ask is this about our church itself going into apostasy or with individuals within it and in other churches?

The LDS church is in apostasy. You only have to read the scriptures and the teachings of Jesus and then contrast to the things the church does to see it.

[justme]

Nice to know where you stand. As for me I stand with the Lord and with his church.

[I AM]

I have posted this before.
also here is more on this to consider
http://www.mormon8-38.com/

If the holy church spoken of in Mormon 8:38
is not our church, then what church is it ?
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Please read ALL of Mormon Chapter 8
-------------------------------------------------
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Moroni is speaking to us today.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea,
even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

I think we need to look at verses 23 and 26
23 "even from the dust will they cry"
26 "for out of the earth shall they come"
"and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead."
These verses sound like to me they are referring to
none other than the book these are in,
and the person who is speaking to us Moroni the son of Mormon
who's it (the book) is named after,
the coming forth of the "The Book of Mormon".
And even if they are not;
ALL the scriptures after that,
verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

Mormon 8:
26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

( if "and your churches, yea, even every one) doesn't include our church,
then English has become useless)

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

I believe these verses are talking about everyone in this "choice land"
of America and especially for the church and it's members.
Interesting why the word "teachers" is used in the same verse
just before he says "who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? "
What other holy church of God is in the world today ?
I believe the only holy church of God this could be is none other than
our church today.
-------------------------------------------------

What time period was Christ talking about in these scriptures below ?

Matthew 24
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the END OF THE WORLD?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 AND YE SHALL HEAR OF WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


Now doesn't verse 6 in Matthew 24
6 AND YE SHALL HEAR OF WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET.
sound like this verse below ?:
Mormon 8:
30 And there shall also be HEARD OF WARS, RUMORS OF WARS, and earthquakes in divers places.


Many have speculated that Mormon was talking about a different time.
These scriptures are talking about the LAST DAYS - NOW !
NOT Joseph Smiths time or some other time in the past.

READ ! Mormon 8 verses 27 to the end.
They are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

READ !

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.
28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities;
and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

----------------------------------------------------------
comment
Mormon chapter eight is directed squarely at the reader. I think it’s safe to say that there are very few other than the Latter Day Saints who read the Book of Mormon. Moroni’s words are not idle comments and prophecies for those who would not read the book. He reveals that he has seen our day and that we walk in pride and arrogance. “Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.” (Mormon 8:34-35) He didn’t identify any group when he started chapter 8 because he’s talking to you the reader of the record. None other. This is unambiguous. He calls you “YOU.” He may have seen YOU in this vision. Wake up!
----------------------------------------------------
Someone made this comment some time ago.

Mormons today dwindle in unbelief. There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people and therefore unavoidably in the right way. So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days, we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves. Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom. Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted warning those who will never read the book.
------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

Elder L. Tom Perry
General Conference Oct. 1992
Using Mormon Chapter 8 to teach us about pride and wealth.
These are some quotes from his talk.

We sense that the only thing Moroni is living for is to complete the record, as he writes, “Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.” (Morm. 8:4.)

All he has is the faith that the Lord will preserve him long enough to complete the record and that someday it will be found by one chosen of the Lord. He realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the members of the Church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world? The evidence is so strong regarding the blessings which accrue to those who trust in and follow the ways the Lord has prescribed for us.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From another magazine, Business Week, we read: “Utah at its best. Of the 50 states, Utah has the highest literacy rate, the youngest population, the highest percent of high school graduates, the highest percent of persons with college education, the ninth highest percent of college graduates, a state’s population with the highest average number of years of school completed, the highest birth rate, the lowest death rate, the fourth longest life expectancy, one of the three lowest cancer rates, one of the lowest heart disease rates, the lowest consumption of alcohol, the lowest consumption of tobacco, the shortest average hospital stays, the healthiest population, … [and] the best-run state government.” (Business Week, 16 Dec. 1991, p. 118J.)

Notice both what is being said and not being said in these articles. They are honoring collective accomplishments, not individual achievements. It is noteworthy of what the citizens of Utah have been able to do together. As communities, they have become a beacon to the world. As a people, they have demonstrated an ability to overcome much of the divisiveness of special interests, uncontrolled individualism, and selfishness.
---------------------------------
"How I wish I could feel comfortable with all this special attention we are receiving. In the midst of this favorable publicity, we see so many members seeking worldly pursuits contrary to the words of the Lord’s prophets through the ages."

"Many of us are more concerned about our fine apparel, the size of our homes, and our cars and their gadgets than we are about the needs of the poor and the needy. We also have seen the threat of legalized abortion, gambling, pornography, and challenges to public prayer undermining the values that bind us together as a community of Saints."
---------------------------------------------------------
"Clearly, the members of the Church face tremendous challenges in the latter days. We must not only resist, but mount a counteroffensive against the temptations of the world and its teachings, if we are to preserve our uniqueness."

[Mark]

I have posted this before.
also here is more on this to consider
http://www.mormon8-38.com/

If the holy church spoken of in Mormon 8:38
is not our church, then what church is it ?
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Please read ALL of Mormon Chapter 8
-------------------------------------------------
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Moroni is speaking to us today.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea,
even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

I think we need to look at verses 23 and 26
23 "even from the dust will they cry"
26 "for out of the earth shall they come"
"and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead."
These verses sound like to me they are referring to
none other than the book these are in,
and the person who is speaking to us Moroni the son of Mormon
who's it (the book) is named after,
the coming forth of the "The Book of Mormon".
And even if they are not;
ALL the scriptures after that,
verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

Mormon 8:
26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

( if "and your churches, yea, even every one) doesn't include our church,
then English has become useless)

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

I believe these verses are talking about everyone in this "choice land"
of America and especially for the church and it's members.
Interesting why the word "teachers" is used in the same verse
just before he says "who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? "
What other holy church of God is in the world today ?
I believe the only holy church of God this could be is none other than
our church today.
-------------------------------------------------

What time period was Christ talking about in these scriptures below ?

Matthew 24
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the END OF THE WORLD?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 AND YE SHALL HEAR OF WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


Now doesn't verse 6 in Matthew 24
6 AND YE SHALL HEAR OF WARS AND RUMOURS OF WARS:
see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,
BUT THE END IS NOT YET.
sound like this verse below ?:
Mormon 8:
30 And there shall also be HEARD OF WARS, RUMORS OF WARS, and earthquakes in divers places.


Many have speculated that Mormon was talking about a different time.
These scriptures are talking about the LAST DAYS - NOW !
NOT Joseph Smiths time or some other time in the past.

READ ! Mormon 8 verses 27 to the end.
They are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

READ !

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.
28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities;
and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

----------------------------------------------------------
comment
Mormon chapter eight is directed squarely at the reader. I think it’s safe to say that there are very few other than the Latter Day Saints who read the Book of Mormon. Moroni’s words are not idle comments and prophecies for those who would not read the book. He reveals that he has seen our day and that we walk in pride and arrogance. “Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.” (Mormon 8:34-35) He didn’t identify any group when he started chapter 8 because he’s talking to you the reader of the record. None other. This is unambiguous. He calls you “YOU.” He may have seen YOU in this vision. Wake up!
----------------------------------------------------
Someone made this comment some time ago.

Mormons today dwindle in unbelief. There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people and therefore unavoidably in the right way. So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days, we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves. Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom. Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted warning those who will never read the book.
------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng

Elder L. Tom Perry
General Conference Oct. 1992
Using Mormon Chapter 8 to teach us about pride and wealth.
These are some quotes from his talk.

We sense that the only thing Moroni is living for is to complete the record, as he writes, “Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.” (Morm. 8:4.)

All he has is the faith that the Lord will preserve him long enough to complete the record and that someday it will be found by one chosen of the Lord. He realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the members of the Church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world? The evidence is so strong regarding the blessings which accrue to those who trust in and follow the ways the Lord has prescribed for us.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From another magazine, Business Week, we read: “Utah at its best. Of the 50 states, Utah has the highest literacy rate, the youngest population, the highest percent of high school graduates, the highest percent of persons with college education, the ninth highest percent of college graduates, a state’s population with the highest average number of years of school completed, the highest birth rate, the lowest death rate, the fourth longest life expectancy, one of the three lowest cancer rates, one of the lowest heart disease rates, the lowest consumption of alcohol, the lowest consumption of tobacco, the shortest average hospital stays, the healthiest population, … [and] the best-run state government.” (Business Week, 16 Dec. 1991, p. 118J.)

Notice both what is being said and not being said in these articles. They are honoring collective accomplishments, not individual achievements. It is noteworthy of what the citizens of Utah have been able to do together. As communities, they have become a beacon to the world. As a people, they have demonstrated an ability to overcome much of the divisiveness of special interests, uncontrolled individualism, and selfishness.
---------------------------------
"How I wish I could feel comfortable with all this special attention we are receiving. In the midst of this favorable publicity, we see so many members seeking worldly pursuits contrary to the words of the Lord’s prophets through the ages."

"Many of us are more concerned about our fine apparel, the size of our homes, and our cars and their gadgets than we are about the needs of the poor and the needy. We also have seen the threat of legalized abortion, gambling, pornography, and challenges to public prayer undermining the values that bind us together as a community of Saints."
---------------------------------------------------------
"Clearly, the members of the Church face tremendous challenges in the latter days. We must not only resist, but mount a counteroffensive against the temptations of the world and its teachings, if we are to preserve our uniqueness."

As hard as you try to twist the scriptures to fit your own negative paradigm of the restored church it falls flat every time for those who actually do have testimonies of said restored church currently directed by the Savior through living Prophets. This is just getting old and annoyingly redundant. It has been discussed multiple times on this forum.

Mormon was speaking of the time that the Book of Mormon would come forth out of the earth. He said so explicetely in verse 26. Think Joseph Smith and the golden plates. The Lord had just condemned all the churches in Joseph's day as having gone astray and broken the everlasting covenant in the first vision. Think great apostasy. The Priesthood had been taken from the earth. Think John the Baptist and Peter James and John. All the churches at that day taught that revelation had ceased and miracles were done away with. The scriptures had been misinterpreted and withheld and the ordinances had been corrupted. Think Catholic Church.

That is the day and time that Moroni was referring to. It is so plain to see that even my small grandchildren can grasp it. Why do you and others continue to try and lead people astray by creating fear and doubt that we don't have a living Prophet who receives direct revelation to guide us as members of the restored church and that the Lord is really in charge of His latter day kingdom? Sounds like you are one of those fighting against the Saints of God. Go read Nephi and Moroni and then rethink what you are doing here. It will not suit you and your co-horts here well if you continue to try and lead people away from the church and their sacred temple and baptismal covenants. Just a friendly tip to consider.

[Arenera]

As hard as you try to twist the scriptures to fit your own negative paradigm of the restored church it falls flat every time for those who actually do have testimonies of said restored church currently directed by the Savior through living Prophets. This is just getting old and annoyingly redundant. It has been discussed multiple times on this forum.

Mormon was speaking of the time that the Book of Mormon would come forth out of the earth. He said so explicetely in verse 26. Think Joseph Smith and the golden plates. The Lord had just condemned all the churches in Joseph's day as having gone astray and broken the everlasting covenant in the first vision. Think great apostasy. The Priesthood had been taken from the earth. Think John the Baptist and Peter James and John. All the churches at that day taught that revelation had ceased and miracles were done away with. The scriptures had been misinterpreted and withheld and the ordinances had been corrupted. Think Catholic Church.

That is the day and time that Moroni was referring to. It is so plain to see that even my small grandchildren can grasp it. Why do you and others continue to try and lead people astray by creating fear and doubt that we don't have a living Prophet who receives direct revelation to guide us as members of the restored church and that the Lord is really in charge of His latter day kingdom? Sounds like you are one of those fighting against the Saints of God. Go read Nephi and Moroni and then rethink what you are doing here. It will not suit you and your co-horts here well if you continue to try and lead people away from the church and their sacred temple and baptismal covenants. Just a friendly tip to consider.

Without question this applies to the time of Joseph Smith. Scriptures can also apply to other time periods, like the Isaiah scriptures.

I can see where some people have polluted the Church in our day, like sneaking wolves working against our Leaders.

[Thinker]

“There must needs be opposition in all things” - including the church. I love the amazing sense of community and encouragement in being better people. There are 2 main harmful evils that have crept into the church. One is cult-mentality - like considering leaders infallible and looking more to them than to Christ. The other is how finances are handled.

Financial corruption (which contribute to debt, bankruptcy, poverty and related suffering) is undeniable. Changing scripture from what it states (increase) to mean “income” to get more money, is not of Christ. The reason God commanded tithe be based on increase is shown in the following example:

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
  Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor. Christ was about alleviating poverty and suffering - not causing more.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some elaborate malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

[Mark]

“There must needs be opposition in all things” - including the church. I love the amazing sense of community and encouragement in being better people. There are 2 main harmful evils that have crept into the church. One is cult-mentality - like considering leaders infallible and looking more to them than to Christ. The other is how finances are handled.

Financial corruption (which contribute to debt, bankruptcy, poverty and related suffering) is undeniable. Changing scripture from what it states (increase) to mean “income” to get more money, is not of Christ. The reason God commanded tithe be based on increase is shown in the following example:

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
  Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor. Christ was about alleviating poverty and suffering - not causing more.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some elaborate malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

OCD alert! How many times are you going to repost this same post Sister? I bet the Remnant board would love to see it. They just love this kind of stuff..

[Thinker]

...Maybe these inconvenient facts need to be repeated until people get it and respond as God would have them. Mark, how many times did you repeat yourself on your mission? How many times have you heard the same thing in church? When you LIKE what is being said - repetition might be affirming. When you don’t like what is being said - even if true - it feels uncomfortable, like you don’t want to know or be reminded of certain truths. Some truths are hard to take. But our spiritual maturity and capacity to love effectively depend on our abilities to respond to truth - wherever it’s found.



You know what it comes down to? Praise of the world. Money in itself is not good or evil - but a tool - and when used to help those in need, as Christ repeatedly asked, it can bring about much good. When used to manipulate, over-charge for worthiness and refuse to share with those for whom it’s intended, while secretly hoarding or spending it based on worldly values - they are missing the mark & need to turn back to God.

• “O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?”

[ElizaRSkousen]

Nice to know where you stand. As for me I stand with the Lord and with his church.

You can stand with the lord and his church and still know it needs to be set in order.

[justme]

Nice to know where you stand. As for me I stand with the Lord and with his church.

You can stand with the lord and his church and still know it needs to be set in order.

Yes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.

Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.

[ElizaRSkousen]

Nice to know where you stand. As for me I stand with the Lord and with his church.

You can stand with the lord and his church and still know it needs to be set in order.

Yes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.

Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.

Yes

I don’t know what you mean by fall away, you and I probably have different ‘lines’ for that. I do believe we are in an apostasy. I don’t believe we are bad enough to be destroyed yet.

As for the Joseph Smith quote, I think he meant that for those people, not us.

Sometimes the majority can be wrong

[justme]

Nice to know where you stand. As for me I stand with the Lord and with his church.

You can stand with the lord and his church and still know it needs to be set in order.

Yes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.

Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.

Yes

I don’t know what you mean by fall away, you and I probably have different ‘lines’ for that. I do believe we are in an apostasy. I don’t believe we are bad enough to be destroyed yet.

As for the Joseph Smith quote, I think he meant that for those people, not us.

Sometimes the majority can be wrong

I agree that falling away is a very ambiguous term. I do not believe we are in apostasy if by we you mean the institutional church and general membership.

And I agree sometime the majority can be wrong.

[ElizaRSkousen]

You can stand with the lord and his church and still know it needs to be set in order.

Yes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.

Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.

Yes

I don’t know what you mean by fall away, you and I probably have different ‘lines’ for that. I do believe we are in an apostasy. I don’t believe we are bad enough to be destroyed yet.

As for the Joseph Smith quote, I think he meant that for those people, not us.

Sometimes the majority can be wrong

I agree that falling away is a very ambiguous term. I do not believe we are in apostasy if by we you mean the institutional church and general membership.

And I agree sometime the majority can be wrong.

I do mean the institutional church and general membership.

[justme]

Yes I totally agree. The Church is not perfect. The leaders are not perfect nor are the people. We can and should strive to do better ourselves until eventually we are perfect. We can strive to help the Church become perfect. And I stand committed to do that. This is what I think it means to sustain the leaders. We can understand and forgive ourselves, each other, and our leaders for our shortcomings. These have happened in the past and will happen in the future. We can share our best efforts and ideas.

Some of us may fall away to some extent, whatever that may mean. Some leaders may fall away. But I have faith that the overall institutional church will not completely fall away. I think that is what is meant by the counsel from Joseph Smith to follow the majority of the brethren.

Yes

I don’t know what you mean by fall away, you and I probably have different ‘lines’ for that. I do believe we are in an apostasy. I don’t believe we are bad enough to be destroyed yet.

As for the Joseph Smith quote, I think he meant that for those people, not us.

Sometimes the majority can be wrong

I agree that falling away is a very ambiguous term. I do not believe we are in apostasy if by we you mean the institutional church and general membership.

And I agree sometime the majority can be wrong.

I do mean the institutional church and general membership.

Then I respectfully disagree.

However it may come down to the dividing line between the terms imperfection and apostasy. Could you provide some examples of what you mean by apostasy?

[ElizaRSkousen]

Yes

I don’t know what you mean by fall away, you and I probably have different ‘lines’ for that. I do believe we are in an apostasy. I don’t believe we are bad enough to be destroyed yet.

As for the Joseph Smith quote, I think he meant that for those people, not us.

Sometimes the majority can be wrong

I agree that falling away is a very ambiguous term. I do not believe we are in apostasy if by we you mean the institutional church and general membership.

And I agree sometime the majority can be wrong.

I do mean the institutional church and general membership.

Then I respectfully disagree.

However it may come down to the dividing line between the terms imperfection and apostasy. Could you provide some examples of what you mean by apostasy?

I mean we have deviated (or never accepted in the first place) from the standards given through the scriptures and through Joseph.

[justme]

I agree that falling away is a very ambiguous term. I do not believe we are in apostasy if by we you mean the institutional church and general membership.

And I agree sometime the majority can be wrong.

I do mean the institutional church and general membership.

Then I respectfully disagree.

However it may come down to the dividing line between the terms imperfection and apostasy. Could you provide some examples of what you mean by apostasy?

I mean we have deviated (or never accepted in the first place) from the standards given through the scriptures and through Joseph.

interesting. Any concrete examples?

[ElizaRSkousen]

I do mean the institutional church and general membership.

Then I respectfully disagree.

However it may come down to the dividing line between the terms imperfection and apostasy. Could you provide some examples of what you mean by apostasy?

I mean we have deviated (or never accepted in the first place) from the standards given through the scriptures and through Joseph.

interesting. Any concrete examples?

Sure.

Birth control
Tithing
Pathriarchal order

[Durzan]

I swear... if he mentions anything about tithing, the law of consecration, or the word of wisdom, I'm gonna go bang my head against the wall out of exasperation.

Edit: darn it... got ninja'd by her.

[ElizaRSkousen]

I swear... if he mentions anything about tithing, the law of consecration, or the word of wisdom, I'm gonna go bang my head against the wall out of exasperation.

Edit: darn it... got ninja'd by him.

I’m a she

Edit:
You are probably equally exasperating

[Durzan]

I swear... if he mentions anything about tithing, the law of consecration, or the word of wisdom, I'm gonna go bang my head against the wall out of exasperation.

Edit: darn it... got ninja'd by him.

I’m a she

Sorry, my apologies.

Fixed.

Edit: You are probably equally exasperating

Trust me, my dear... you have no idea.