LDS Freedom Forum

A literal interpretation would also mean we make our own wine for the sacrament, and beer and ale are a-okay.

Personally, I believe this would be a great clarification/policy change. It would lead true seekers to evaluate why they follow the word of wisdom and what it means to them personally, and limit the cultural aspects.

We should not have to be commanded in all things...

Jesef wrote: ↑February 17th, 2019, 9:36 pm You haven't intelligently debunked a single point I've made, JohnnyL - & I think most people would agree. You are the one who just keeps repeating your opinion without any history or facts that make sense to back it up. Just "obey the leaders/'prophets'" is your mantra. And it's a mantra, not an argument. Keep repeating it to yourself. How about you just let the thread go unless you have some real evidence to present. So far you haven't even demonstrated how the Church was bound to accept the WoW as "upgraded" to a "commandment" when it explicitly states the opposite. Do some research, do some analysis & thinking, friend. I'll summarize it for you, though - your worldview & "faith" boils down to this TBM philosophy = "Follow the Prophets, they all have the keys, they can do whatever & we will bend our knees" - sounds like a cult song to me.

I AM wrote: ↑January 27th, 2019, 11:46 am

thestock wrote: ↑January 26th, 2019, 9:37 pm Allow members to read the WoW as it was intended/written and apply it with using their own agency to receive the blessings promised or not. Scripture says not a commandment. We have done like the Pharisees and placed a commandment around it. Stop requiring any WoW questions to temple recommend. Instead admonish people to live it and trust/empower them to manage their own affairs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so true.
The Word of Wisdom is just that ( a word of wisdom)
This was not a revelation.

it's funny how we can make such a fuss over tea, or even coffee,
while so many Mormons guzzle down Coke or energy drinks, and eat sugar
and artificial everything like it was nothing.
Not to mention the deadly prescription drugs that so many members are so fond of
that you can't even compare anything to how bad they are for you.
I really wonder which is worse.
Yet it's ok, they get their pass to the temple.

lds.org
Section 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833.
As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it.
This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.


This was not a revelation.
Section 89 of the D&C came about because of this - as described below

"The situation that arose to evoke the revelation started with a combination of the efforts of the Kirtland Temperance Society (founded in 1830 and predominantly non Mormon), who were opposed to alcohol, tobacco and eating too much meat; and Smith training men in his ‘School of Elders' every day, meeting in a small smoke filled room above Emma's kitchen, with tobacco juice being spit all over the floor. Emma had the job of cleaning up following the meetings."

"Thus Emma, faced almost daily with “having to clean so filthy a floor” as was left by the men chewing tobacco, spoke to Joseph about the matter. Davis Whitmer's account supports Brigham Young's description. “Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it's suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig' at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom' was the result.
(David Whitmer). (Des Moines Daily News, 16 Oct 1886:20 c. in: Newell & Avery 1994:47, also c: An Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom, Paul H. Peterson - Masters Thesis, [no location provided]; Also: c. in Tanner 1987:406. See also Tanner 1987: Ch. 26 for excellent coverage). (Emphasis added). "

"Section 89 of the D&C is one of many sections written to appear, not just as inspired words but rather, as if it was direct from the mouth of the Lord, as verse 4 includes “…thus saith the Lord unto you…”

also
"The Mormon Church forbids the use of tea, but according to Joseph Smith's Diary, March 11, 1843, Smith was fond of strong tea: “…in the office Joseph said he had tea with his breakfast. his wife asked him if [it] was good. he said if it was a little stronger he should like it better, when Mother Granger remarked, ‘It is so strong, and good, I should think it would answer Both for drink, and food.'”
This was entirely omitted in the History of the Church (see Vol. 5, page 302)."

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 17th, 2019, 8:40 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 31st, 2019, 6:55 pm

mgridle1 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2019, 6:44 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 31st, 2019, 5:39 pm Perhaps the Brethren will add the commandment of no energy healing to the WoW soon?

Elder Ballard - from his October 2017 General Conference talk -

"In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge and expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support. An official church statement issued one year ago states, “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises-in exchange for money-miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”

The Church handbook counsels, “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.” (21.3.6)

Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing, but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful."

There is a reason why they came out against energy healing. If you read Mormon leaks-as much as I dispise then. One of the main ways in which Denver snuffer gained adherents was through energy healings... At least that is what a stake president reported to salt lake

Agreed. It's just interesting to me how some in this thread who claim the WoW is a commandment just because the apostles say so, have no problem believing in and working in energy healing (and getting paid for it, to boot), even though the apostles say to avoid it and steer clear of it. Goose/gander, pot/kettle, cafeteria Mormons, and all that.

Of course, it's assumed that's what he meant, as he was never clear about it. I don't ever remember him saying "energy healing", correct?
And was it that, or the use of "Christ" in the product?
When more than one apostle actually says "energy healing", then it might mean something.

sandman45 wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 10:04 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 31st, 2019, 5:39 pm Perhaps the Brethren will add the commandment of no energy healing to the WoW soon?

Elder Ballard - from his October 2017 General Conference talk -

"In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge and expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support. An official church statement issued one year ago states, “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises-in exchange for money-miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”

The Church handbook counsels, “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.” (21.3.6)

Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing, but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful."

Lol modern medicine is all about exchanging money for so called cures etc. modern medicine is the problem. It’s a business. These companies (Pharma) and hospitals make more money the longer you are sick and dependent upon their drugs.

Sounds like Ballard wants us all to keep using this greedy and broken system that is constantly changing and telling us things that are actually harmful and don’t get me started on vaccines and cancer.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2019, 10:38 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 17th, 2019, 8:40 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 31st, 2019, 6:55 pm

mgridle1 wrote: ↑January 31st, 2019, 6:44 pm
There is a reason why they came out against energy healing. If you read Mormon leaks-as much as I dispise then. One of the main ways in which Denver snuffer gained adherents was through energy healings... At least that is what a stake president reported to salt lake

Agreed. It's just interesting to me how some in this thread who claim the WoW is a commandment just because the apostles say so, have no problem believing in and working in energy healing (and getting paid for it, to boot), even though the apostles say to avoid it and steer clear of it. Goose/gander, pot/kettle, cafeteria Mormons, and all that.

Of course, it's assumed that's what he meant, as he was never clear about it. I don't ever remember him saying "energy healing", correct?
And was it that, or the use of "Christ" in the product?
When more than one apostle actually says "energy healing", then it might mean something.

Okay - so as long as 'only' one PSR says not to do something, we can feel free to ignore it. Cool!

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2019, 5:22 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2019, 10:38 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 17th, 2019, 8:40 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 31st, 2019, 6:55 pm

Agreed. It's just interesting to me how some in this thread who claim the WoW is a commandment just because the apostles say so, have no problem believing in and working in energy healing (and getting paid for it, to boot), even though the apostles say to avoid it and steer clear of it. Goose/gander, pot/kettle, cafeteria Mormons, and all that.

Of course, it's assumed that's what he meant, as he was never clear about it. I don't ever remember him saying "energy healing", correct?
And was it that, or the use of "Christ" in the product?
When more than one apostle actually says "energy healing", then it might mean something.

Okay - so as long as 'only' one PSR says not to do something, we can feel free to ignore it. Cool!

Did he say "energy healing"? For all I know, he might have been talking about Western medicine...

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2019, 5:24 pm

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2019, 5:22 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2019, 10:38 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 17th, 2019, 8:40 pm
Of course, it's assumed that's what he meant, as he was never clear about it. I don't ever remember him saying "energy healing", correct?
And was it that, or the use of "Christ" in the product?
When more than one apostle actually says "energy healing", then it might mean something.

Okay - so as long as 'only' one PSR says not to do something, we can feel free to ignore it. Cool!

Did he say "energy healing"? For all I know, he might have been talking about Western medicine...

We shouldn't need to be commanded in all things, but some prefer to be.

“My calling and life experiences allow me to respond to certain types of questions,” he said. “There are other types of questions that require an expert in a specific subject matter. That is exactly what I do when I need an answer to such questions. I seek help from others, including those with degrees and expertise in such fields.”

Sharing that he worries sometimes “that members expect too much from Church leaders and teachings—expecting them to be experts in subjects well beyond their duties and responsibilities,” Elder Ballard reminded listeners of his role as an Apostle—to invite others to come unto Christ.

“If you have a question that requires an expert, please take the time to find a thoughtful and qualified expert to help you,” he said. “There are many on this campus and elsewhere who have the degrees and expertise to respond and give some insight to most of these types of questions.”

taught in the LDS Church Educational System or worked at church-owned Brigham Young University. They served in temples... Some devotees delved into holistic healing, piled up excessive food storage or launched apocalyptic preparations.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 24th, 2019, 9:26 pm This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 28th, 2019, 9:37 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 24th, 2019, 9:26 pm This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 28th, 2019, 9:37 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 24th, 2019, 9:26 pm This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

Vision wrote: ↑January 26th, 2019, 9:52 pm

Yahtzee wrote: ↑January 26th, 2019, 9:46 pm

Vision wrote: ↑January 26th, 2019, 9:38 pm Imagine sacrament meeting with people bringing their starbucks latte's.

Since I don't see people with their Diet Coke right now I don't think this will be an issue.

How do you know diet coke isn't in their cool stainless steel bottles that are so common at Church now?

JK4Woods wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 1:39 pm

Vision wrote: ↑January 26th, 2019, 9:52 pm

Yahtzee wrote: ↑January 26th, 2019, 9:46 pm

Vision wrote: ↑January 26th, 2019, 9:38 pm Imagine sacrament meeting with people bringing their starbucks latte's.

Since I don't see people with their Diet Coke right now I don't think this will be an issue.

How do you know diet coke isn't in their cool stainless steel bottles that are so common at Church now?

Our Bishopric installed an under counter fridge in the clerks office, and it was stocked with diet coke. Frequently offered to those waiting to see the Bishop. (He was Bishop for 7 years, and is now 1st Councillor in the Stake presidency).

Arganoil wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 3:10 pm If the church wants to have any success in the future in China they really have to rethink tea in the WoW.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 8:23 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 28th, 2019, 9:37 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 24th, 2019, 9:26 pm This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

JohnnyL wrote: ↑March 5th, 2019, 11:02 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 8:23 am

JohnnyL wrote: ↑February 28th, 2019, 9:37 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 24th, 2019, 9:26 pm This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

I wrote out a big response, but in short: not much; no; no.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 8:23 am How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

Mindfields wrote: ↑March 5th, 2019, 2:08 pmI was not there to vote for or against so I am not obliged to follow that agreement.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑March 5th, 2019, 6:02 pm

Mindfields wrote: ↑March 5th, 2019, 2:08 pmI was not there to vote for or against so I am not obliged to follow that agreement.

This is where I lean. I had no say in changing it from a word of wisdom to a word of command. Am I right? I don't know.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑March 5th, 2019, 6:01 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑March 1st, 2019, 8:23 am How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

JohnnyL is actually quite health conscious.