Rumor WOW change?

[4Joshua8]

A literal interpretation would also mean we make our own wine for the sacrament, and beer and ale are a-okay.

Personally, I believe this would be a great clarification/policy change. It would lead true seekers to evaluate why they follow the word of wisdom and what it means to them personally, and limit the cultural aspects.

We should not have to be commanded in all things...

A literal interpretation of Section 89 is a beautiful thing...something that fills me with hope. Hard to imagine God giving such explicit and clear instructions without intending for us to take them seriously at all.

As a side note, I believe the reason we got stricter rules is the "law of moses" affect, which means that our people rejected God's wisdom and the simplicity of the revelation and instead required sets of hard-and-fast rules by which to live our lives, because we were unwilling to govern ourselves by principle and wisdom. So, God obliged.

[JohnnyL]

You haven't intelligently debunked a single point I've made, JohnnyL - & I think most people would agree. You are the one who just keeps repeating your opinion without any history or facts that make sense to back it up. Just "obey the leaders/'prophets'" is your mantra. And it's a mantra, not an argument. Keep repeating it to yourself. How about you just let the thread go unless you have some real evidence to present. So far you haven't even demonstrated how the Church was bound to accept the WoW as "upgraded" to a "commandment" when it explicitly states the opposite. Do some research, do some analysis & thinking, friend. I'll summarize it for you, though - your worldview & "faith" boils down to this TBM philosophy = "Follow the Prophets, they all have the keys, they can do whatever & we will bend our knees" - sounds like a cult song to me.

Ah Jesef, does obedience make you furious? Try it once in a while, you might like it.

[I AM]

Allow members to read the WoW as it was intended/written and apply it with using their own agency to receive the blessings promised or not. Scripture says not a commandment. We have done like the Pharisees and placed a commandment around it. Stop requiring any WoW questions to temple recommend. Instead admonish people to live it and trust/empower them to manage their own affairs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so true.
The Word of Wisdom is just that ( a word of wisdom)
This was not a revelation.

it's funny how we can make such a fuss over tea, or even coffee,
while so many Mormons guzzle down Coke or energy drinks, and eat sugar
and artificial everything like it was nothing.
Not to mention the deadly prescription drugs that so many members are so fond of
that you can't even compare anything to how bad they are for you.
I really wonder which is worse.
Yet it's ok, they get their pass to the temple.

lds.org
Section 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833.
As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it.
This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.


This was not a revelation.
Section 89 of the D&C came about because of this - as described below

"The situation that arose to evoke the revelation started with a combination of the efforts of the Kirtland Temperance Society (founded in 1830 and predominantly non Mormon), who were opposed to alcohol, tobacco and eating too much meat; and Smith training men in his ‘School of Elders' every day, meeting in a small smoke filled room above Emma's kitchen, with tobacco juice being spit all over the floor. Emma had the job of cleaning up following the meetings."

"Thus Emma, faced almost daily with “having to clean so filthy a floor” as was left by the men chewing tobacco, spoke to Joseph about the matter. Davis Whitmer's account supports Brigham Young's description. “Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it's suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig' at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom' was the result.
(David Whitmer). (Des Moines Daily News, 16 Oct 1886:20 c. in: Newell & Avery 1994:47, also c: An Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom, Paul H. Peterson - Masters Thesis, [no location provided]; Also: c. in Tanner 1987:406. See also Tanner 1987: Ch. 26 for excellent coverage). (Emphasis added). "

"Section 89 of the D&C is one of many sections written to appear, not just as inspired words but rather, as if it was direct from the mouth of the Lord, as verse 4 includes “…thus saith the Lord unto you…”

also
"The Mormon Church forbids the use of tea, but according to Joseph Smith's Diary, March 11, 1843, Smith was fond of strong tea: “…in the office Joseph said he had tea with his breakfast. his wife asked him if [it] was good. he said if it was a little stronger he should like it better, when Mother Granger remarked, ‘It is so strong, and good, I should think it would answer Both for drink, and food.'”
This was entirely omitted in the History of the Church (see Vol. 5, page 302)."

------------------

Rumor WOW change?
who cares !
everyone just talking about this is so ridiculous .
this is temporal - "all things unto me are spiritual" *** (please see below)

section 89 was just another one of those so called revelations that was never a revelation.
it was " a word of wisdom" and nothing more.

If the church can give a free pass to the temple for a same-sex attraction person, and the like,
and also not care how many dangerous meds you put into your body, that can damage your body more than
any junk food or almost anything that you could possibly put in your mouth,
including all the sugar,and sodas and artificial everything that members are so fond of;
while denying a person the right to the temple because of a cup of coffee then ...... !
what hypocrisy !
what injustice !
so like I said - who cares ! what changes they have or not.

Matthew 23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
***
D&C 101
37 Therefore, care not for the body, neither the life of the body; but care for the soul, and for the life of the soul.

Matthew 10
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


the Lord has said
D&C 29:

34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at ANY TIME have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself;
and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment
gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual;
they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.


Matthew 15
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man.

[EmmaLee]

Perhaps the Brethren will add the commandment of no energy healing to the WoW soon?

Elder Ballard - from his October 2017 General Conference talk -

"In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge and expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support. An official church statement issued one year ago states, “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises-in exchange for money-miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”

The Church handbook counsels, “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.” (21.3.6)

Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing, but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful."

There is a reason why they came out against energy healing. If you read Mormon leaks-as much as I dispise then. One of the main ways in which Denver snuffer gained adherents was through energy healings... At least that is what a stake president reported to salt lake

Agreed. It's just interesting to me how some in this thread who claim the WoW is a commandment just because the apostles say so, have no problem believing in and working in energy healing (and getting paid for it, to boot), even though the apostles say to avoid it and steer clear of it. Goose/gander, pot/kettle, cafeteria Mormons, and all that.

Of course, it's assumed that's what he meant, as he was never clear about it. I don't ever remember him saying "energy healing", correct?
And was it that, or the use of "Christ" in the product?
When more than one apostle actually says "energy healing", then it might mean something.

Okay - so as long as 'only' one PSR says not to do something, we can feel free to ignore it. Cool!

[EmmaLee]

Perhaps the Brethren will add the commandment of no energy healing to the WoW soon?

Elder Ballard - from his October 2017 General Conference talk -

"In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge and expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support. An official church statement issued one year ago states, “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises-in exchange for money-miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”

The Church handbook counsels, “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.” (21.3.6)

Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing, but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful."

Lol modern medicine is all about exchanging money for so called cures etc. modern medicine is the problem. It’s a business. These companies (Pharma) and hospitals make more money the longer you are sick and dependent upon their drugs.

Sounds like Ballard wants us all to keep using this greedy and broken system that is constantly changing and telling us things that are actually harmful and don’t get me started on vaccines and cancer.

I agree with your comments on the modern medical establishment, especially including Big Pharma. I wouldn't try to set a broken bone with essential oils, however - as just one example of when I'm thankful for medical doctors. I, personally, view health from an holistic approach, and I do all I can to avoid going to doctors or taking Big Pharma drugs. Having said that, you seem to have completely missed the point of why I shared that Ballard quote (which wasn't to say anything at all about doctors, etc. - it was to show the hypocrisy of some members, but whatevs).

[JohnnyL]

There is a reason why they came out against energy healing. If you read Mormon leaks-as much as I dispise then. One of the main ways in which Denver snuffer gained adherents was through energy healings... At least that is what a stake president reported to salt lake

Agreed. It's just interesting to me how some in this thread who claim the WoW is a commandment just because the apostles say so, have no problem believing in and working in energy healing (and getting paid for it, to boot), even though the apostles say to avoid it and steer clear of it. Goose/gander, pot/kettle, cafeteria Mormons, and all that.

Of course, it's assumed that's what he meant, as he was never clear about it. I don't ever remember him saying "energy healing", correct?
And was it that, or the use of "Christ" in the product?
When more than one apostle actually says "energy healing", then it might mean something.

Okay - so as long as 'only' one PSR says not to do something, we can feel free to ignore it. Cool!

Did he say "energy healing"? For all I know, he might have been talking about Western medicine...

[EmmaLee]

Agreed. It's just interesting to me how some in this thread who claim the WoW is a commandment just because the apostles say so, have no problem believing in and working in energy healing (and getting paid for it, to boot), even though the apostles say to avoid it and steer clear of it. Goose/gander, pot/kettle, cafeteria Mormons, and all that.

Of course, it's assumed that's what he meant, as he was never clear about it. I don't ever remember him saying "energy healing", correct?
And was it that, or the use of "Christ" in the product?
When more than one apostle actually says "energy healing", then it might mean something.

Okay - so as long as 'only' one PSR says not to do something, we can feel free to ignore it. Cool!

Did he say "energy healing"? For all I know, he might have been talking about Western medicine...

We shouldn't need to be commanded in all things, but some prefer to be.

[JohnnyL]

Of course, it's assumed that's what he meant, as he was never clear about it. I don't ever remember him saying "energy healing", correct?
And was it that, or the use of "Christ" in the product?
When more than one apostle actually says "energy healing", then it might mean something.

Okay - so as long as 'only' one PSR says not to do something, we can feel free to ignore it. Cool!

Did he say "energy healing"? For all I know, he might have been talking about Western medicine...

We shouldn't need to be commanded in all things, but some prefer to be.

So, he didn't. As you'll see later, many were and still are unclear. (Or you can search the internet to see members' opinions as to what it meant to them.)

Do you uphold the words of President Uchtdorf that we should not get on the internet to find answers, and to leave medical conditions to "the experts"/ doctors? He said that recently, too. In General Conference, nonetheless.

Some things are opinion, no matter who they come from.

That's why it IS important to hear it from at least two GA's, especially if neither is the prophet, who is the only one to receive revelation for the Church, correct?

Did I feel the Spirit either time? No, I didn't. The words felt empty, hollow.

That's okay, because Elder Ballard contradicted himself, by his own words. Here, from https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-b ... s?lang=eng :

“My calling and life experiences allow me to respond to certain types of questions,” he said. “There are other types of questions that require an expert in a specific subject matter. That is exactly what I do when I need an answer to such questions. I seek help from others, including those with degrees and expertise in such fields.”

Sharing that he worries sometimes “that members expect too much from Church leaders and teachings—expecting them to be experts in subjects well beyond their duties and responsibilities,” Elder Ballard reminded listeners of his role as an Apostle—to invite others to come unto Christ.

“If you have a question that requires an expert, please take the time to find a thoughtful and qualified expert to help you,” he said. “There are many on this campus and elsewhere who have the degrees and expertise to respond and give some insight to most of these types of questions.”

I'm sure if I were to ask him some basic questions about EH, he wouldn't have a clue. There are likely hundreds of expert energy healers in Utah he could easily have consulted with, if he had wanted to.

Other members were confused: perhaps it was MLM, essential oils (doTerra, Young Living, etc.), herbal supplements (Utah leads the nation in those companies), etc.: https://wheatandtares.org/2017/10/04/th ... surprised/

Of course, one stake president's opinion (same site), even if informed, is not enough to be considered an expert. In addition to EH though, people taken in by DS were ALSO reported to be/do:

taught in the LDS Church Educational System or worked at church-owned Brigham Young University. They served in temples... Some devotees delved into holistic healing, piled up excessive food storage or launched apocalyptic preparations.

So if you want to include energy healing, I guess we can include seminary and institute instructors, BYU workers, those giving temple service, and those with an actual two-year food storage or perhaps owners of more than one gun/ family member. With proof that none of those things actually contributed to their leaving the fold.

[JohnnyL]

By the way, what if I had a letter from an apostle saying EH is okay?

[EmmaLee]

This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

[JohnnyL]

This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

[EmmaLee]

This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

[Fiannan]

I knew a guy who was a weightlifter, but occasionally smoked to relieve his nerves. Not a good thing. However, one time he was outside a mall smoking a cigarette and an obese kid came up to him and said, "Smoking isn't good for you."

Now that is irony.

[EmmaLee]

This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

And just so we're clear - I personally have no desire to partake of coffee, tea, beer, etc. I've never even tasted coffee or beer, because the smell alone is gross to me. I have tasted a few different types of tea (herbal and iced), and did not like them at all, so much so, that any benefits from consuming herbal teas is outweighed by my dislike for the taste. So, sorry if you think this is about me wanting to drink coffee, tea, and beer - as even if the Church came out today and said, "Have at it!" I still would not drink them.

As others have mentioned - the majority of the Word of Wisdom is dietary/food related - which most LDS seem to completely ignore - so even if the WoW is a commandment, most LDS treat it like a buffet (the irony...), picking and choosing the parts of it that they want to 'obey' and ignoring and 'disobeying' the parts that they don't. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. (I have no desire to smoke either, lest my jest be misinterpreted by Pharisees. Lungs are not meant to have smoke of any kind inhaled into them.)

[JK4Woods]

Imagine sacrament meeting with people bringing their starbucks latte's.

Since I don't see people with their Diet Coke right now I don't think this will be an issue.

How do you know diet coke isn't in their cool stainless steel bottles that are so common at Church now?

Our Bishopric installed an under counter fridge in the clerks office, and it was stocked with diet coke. Frequently offered to those waiting to see the Bishop. (He was Bishop for 7 years, and is now 1st Councillor in the Stake presidency).

[thestock]

Imagine sacrament meeting with people bringing their starbucks latte's.

Since I don't see people with their Diet Coke right now I don't think this will be an issue.

How do you know diet coke isn't in their cool stainless steel bottles that are so common at Church now?

Our Bishopric installed an under counter fridge in the clerks office, and it was stocked with diet coke. Frequently offered to those waiting to see the Bishop. (He was Bishop for 7 years, and is now 1st Councillor in the Stake presidency).

Should throw some Mountain Dews in there, as well...

[Arganoil]

If the church wants to have any success in the future in China they really have to rethink tea in the WoW.

[JohnnyL]

If the church wants to have any success in the future in China they really have to rethink tea in the WoW.

That could be said for a lot of commandments for a lot of countries with traditions (like coffee for Americans).
If the bar need be lowered, that's up to God. But I don't believe it will be.
The Church has done okay in lots of countries, notwithstanding the WoW. It could add more, say, no more kava.
The Church has already had success in China/ with Chinese. It's been happening for years.

[JohnnyL]

This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

I wrote out a big response, but in short: not much; no; no.

[EmmaLee]

This was never about EH vs. medical establishment. Again, some members need to be commanded in all things, jots and tittles. To each their own. The scriptures, the Prophet of this dispensation, the Holy Ghost - these have told us/tell us how to get back to God. Everything else is noise, IMO. Peace out.

Of course it wasn't. It wasn't really much about how some people oppose a whole bunch of prophets and apostles over a commandment, but take the unclear and contradicted opinion of one apostle as a clear commandment, either.

"All things, jots and tittles"--yes, that's what the thread is about. No coffee, tea, beer. That's pretty jotted and tittled, but many have a very clear problem with that.

How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

I wrote out a big response, but in short: not much; no; no.

Me either.

[Mindfields]

Since no new revelation from the Lord has been received to supersede the original revelation then we ought to just take the original as given. Good advice, not commandment. How are we not like the Pharisee's when we make God's commandments, advice in this case, more strict than he gave it. God revealed the WOW exactly as he intended. We shouldn't try to "make them better" by going beyond what he reveals.

I don't care that the saints at the time voted to make it a commandment. That was for them alone. I was not there to vote for or against so I am not obliged to follow that agreement. It God revealed it to now be a commandment and it was voted upon by the church and then added to the scriptures then I would be required to treat it as a commandment.

[Silver Pie]

How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

JohnnyL is actually quite health conscious.

[Silver Pie]

I was not there to vote for or against so I am not obliged to follow that agreement.

This is where I lean. I had no say in changing it from a word of wisdom to a word of command. Am I right? I don't know.

[JohnnyL]

I was not there to vote for or against so I am not obliged to follow that agreement.

This is where I lean. I had no say in changing it from a word of wisdom to a word of command. Am I right? I don't know.

Yeah, but when's the last time you, or any of us, voted on anything about "commandments"?

[EmmaLee]

How much meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, etc. in any form) have you eaten this week, Johnny? Have you had anything hot to drink? Consumed anything with caffeine?

JohnnyL is actually quite health conscious.

Oh, I didn't know you personally knew JohnnyL in real life. Perhaps you missed the other pertinent comments earlier in this thread - otherwise, you would have known the context of why I asked him that. Nothing to do with health; more of hypocrisy - him preaching to everyone that they must follow every word the apostles say, and that the WoW (no coffee, tea, beer, wine, etc.) is a commandment - except when it's something HE doesn't want to hear or do - then all of a sudden, what the apostles say doesn't matter and isn't a commandment. Cafeteria Mormonry at its finest.