EXPERIMENT/POLL: Denver Snuffer - Get/got a YES or NO answer to a specific question?

[Jesef]

Based on a discussion in another thread about getting answers from God & recognizing the manifestations & meaning of revelations by the power of the Holy Ghost, I decided to start an experiment in the form of this poll.

Most of you know or have heard of Denver Snuffer - he's taught & wrote much & claimed many things. The claim that I'm asking you all to help me test (confirm/deny) is his first real claim asking people to DO something which basically amounts to leaving the Church. In Mesa, Arizona, in 2014, at his 10th/final talk of his "40 Years in Mormonism" series, which he delivered each talk at different cities up & down the Idaho/Utah/Arizona "Mormon Corridor" - he said the following:

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... ration.pdf

…
If you are converted to everything said in this meeting today, and in all nine of the preceding sessions of this one talk, and you do not take action, then you do not have faith. But if you do take action, then you will receive the reward from your faith.

You need to be baptized and offer baptism to others because the LDS Church no longer preaches the doctrine of Christ, and have added to it the commandments of men.
…
I was also asked, "What do we do to get started?" I mentioned conferences. You can call conferences in your home, anytime, anyplace. All you need is to have a minimum to sustain that will sign and say that they are sustaining as part of the fellowship. In terms of those who are already ordained? You can function as a priest in the LDS Church, it is just if you are going to function under this system with others in a fellowship, among this community with these people, have a conference, and get sustained first. You do not need to be re-ordained, if you were ordained before April 2014. If you were ordained after April 2014 you should get ordained again among this community. So, there are two categories: If ordained before April 2014, get sustained by the required number in a fellowship before you perform any priestly function, including baptism and the Sacrament. If ordained after April 2014 do the same thing, but have someone ordain you again. Keep a record of that, as already explained.
…
There is a coming time of distress. Those who believe Christ’s doctrine will need to have the baptism you will minister to survive the judgments to come. This is the only way they can face Him when He comes again.

Another requirement is a record of the names of those you baptize. You do not record their email addresses, vital statistics, phone numbers, or any contact information. Only names. Therefore, after you have complied to have power to baptize, and taught them the Doctrine of Christ and they have repented, and are being baptized, their name must be recorded. You choose recorders in your fellowships, and a recorder to compile the names from all the various fellowships. Someone has to keep the names in a record. Faithfully record the name every time there is a baptism. There will be various recorders in various locations. The various recorders need to submit them to a single central record keeper on an annual basis. Have the recorders from the various fellowships identify themselves. I can give them some further direction, but there should be annually complied, a single volume, that will be deposited in a temple. Ultimately there will be a temple built.

What do you think? Would you expect God to answer such a question? Is it important enough? How would you recognize the answer as coming from God? Remember, in most cases, this is RE-baptism - most of us have already been baptized before - so this is a specific additional requirement with specific instructions tied to unverifiable (except spiritually) claims, which may or may not be true. The truth of the claims makes all the difference in whether or not the requirement is actually valid. Do you agree? It's not just a generic: "does a person need to be baptized (generically, to be saved, etc.)?" In fact, it would be somewhat similar to a person who was previously baptized in another Christian faith being taught by LDS missionaries & considering baptism by our Church's priesthood authority.

I'm asking as many of you as are willing to seek an answer from God, for yourself, and to share it by answering the poll & commenting if you would like to. Here is the question or something essentially similar: "Do I need to be re-baptized per Denver’s instructions delivered in Mesa, Arizona in 2014 at his 10th talk?” The actual instructions can be found on pages 16-17 of that pdf/talk.

Here's my thinking: If the answer is “no”, then pretty much the rest of his message can be discarded/ignored as it all builds on top of that foundation (the covenant he claims he’s been given through him, fellowships, etc, etc). He teaches that this rebaptism by one having authority, again according to instructions he has laid out, must be received to be acceptable to Christ at His coming. It’s a yes or no for each person. How does that logic sit with you? Also, it is a claim with specific context. For example, let’s say you’ve already been baptized in the (LDS) Church - if Denver’s claim is true, then that is insufficient now. Getting some kind of confirmation on Denver’s generic teachings on the necessity of baptism which are generically the same as mainstream LDS is not going to validate this need for re-baptism. So it’s specific, not generic. Just my thought. Please participate & please share. If you've already prayed in the past, you can vote & share according to that or you could repeat the experiment (you should get the same answer, right?). I believe God will answer us repeatedly, in mercy, due to the high level of uncertainty of our mortal environment. I have gotten an answer in the past but will repeat the experiment & share my results. In any case, the results should be interesting & should spark some discussion about how we all get inspiration/revelation.

[kittycat51]

What about another choice; that of I didn't need to pray in the first place because I know in my heart Denver is off his rocker.

[Jesef]

What about another choice; that of I didn't need to pray in the first place because I know in my heart Denver is off his rocker.

That's basically not participating, which is fine. But I would suggest: pray & see if you get an answer that confirms your assumption. That would contribute definitively to the experiment. Assuming your bias is correct is, well, just biased - even if you are correct, it's pretty closed-minded (biased), right? Say more if you think differently - I respect your position, though, basically "no need to consider it".

[Finrock]

I was initially introduced to Denver Snuffer's claims after reading a post where someone mentions him. For a very long time I ignored Denver Snuffer and his writings. I had many people accused me of being a Denver Snuffer follower and/or a believer because I posted things that apparently were being taught by Denver. Like I said at the time I had only heard of Denver Snuffer but had not read any of his material. Because of the accusations I made it a point not to read his material so that I could maintain internal integrity when I said that I was not being influenced by Denver but was only saying things that had been taught/shown to me by the Spirit. Eventually, however, I did start reading his blog and finally I picked up a couple of his books, "Second Comforter" was one of them. When I first started reading Denver, Denver was still firmly a member of the Church (that is what he professed, at least, in public and in his writings). However, as I didn't want to be lead astray, to be tricked, to be manipulated, etc. I prayed as I do as a matter of regular practice, that God would direct me and lead me and keep me from being tricked. I prayed for wisdom and for inspiration. I did not pray and ask God at the time if I should be baptized because at the time that wasn't something Denver was teaching. For over a year I read Denver's blog on a regular basis. I even went back and caught myself up by reading past blogs and material, as far back as the website at the time allowed me. There were several things that Denver said that rang true to me, as in the Spirit confirmed to me that they are good and true principles. I appreciated many of his insights, even if I didn't necessarily feel a confirmation as to their absolute value. I would say that I felt initially that Denver was teaching some really cool things. However, as I continued to read and as time continued to progress, I started picking up on these hints that indicated that Denver Snuffer is setting himself up as some special messenger. I felt uncomfortable with his subtle innuendo that attacked the character and the integrity of Church leaders AND at the same time, the innuendo built Denver up. I believe I was able to recognize the sings of vainglory because I myself at one point have suffered with this weakness. It was something that I had identified in myself and so I believe this allowed me to sense it and to see it in Denver. I also attribute this sensitivity to Denver's subtle deceptions to the Holy Spirit as I knew I had asked to be lead and to be guided. I still kept reading Denver's posts, but, this time it was more out of curiosity and because his movement was starting to make waves and started to get the attention of more and more people.

My impressions came as thoughts and as feelings. There were times as I was reading Denver that mental alarm bells went off. For me its kinda like this mental error buzzer. It causes me to pause. It feels out of place. Then, as I pondered during this moment, I would get a thought in my mind, almost like an explanation for the unease, "This is self-serving" or "This idea is elitist" or "You used to feel this way and God showed you it was wrong".

Another thing that helped me to know that Denver was off were other revelations that I had received from the Holy Spirit, independent of anyone's influence outside of God's influence, that I knew were correct, yet, Denver was teaching the exact opposite. One example here is this idea that God is not exclusive. That God is greater than any particular sociocentric paradigm, etc.

So, by the time Denver came around to apostatizing from the Church and starting his own religion, I had already been warned and told by God that Denver's movement is motivated by the vainglory of Denver Snuffer. This is not to say that I don't appreciate some of the contributions of Denver Snuffer and there are many positive principles that his sect is trying to accomplish. I don't condemn and feel any dislike, animosity, or negative feelings towards Denver or anyone who believes in him. I also feel that on a grand scale, God has all things in control and we all have our individual journeys and it isn't for me to say who needs what, when, and where. So, I've never specifically asked if I needed to be rebaptized in to Denver's religion. I knew that it wasn't for me before that question ever came up.

-Finrock

[MMbelieve]

What about another choice; that of I didn't need to pray in the first place because I know in my heart Denver is off his rocker.

I agree, this is how i felt and thought as well.

Is it God answering a prayer that i didnt have to pray, discernment, holy ghost warning me to not entertain this man...? Eitherway, my decision was to stay away and that exactly what I have done.

There does need to be another option available, at least to account for those who would never ask if they should join Denver as they already know that would be wrong.

[MMbelieve]

What about another choice; that of I didn't need to pray in the first place because I know in my heart Denver is off his rocker.

That's basically not participating, which is fine. But I would suggest: pray & see if you get an answer that confirms your assumption. That would contribute definitively to the experiment. Assuming your bias is correct is, well, just biased - even if you are correct, it's pretty closed-minded (biased), right? Say more if you think differently - I respect your position, though, basically "no need to consider it".

Im in the same boat as Kittycat51 so i hope you dont mind me responding here.

I assume you might say the same to me so I would have to respond with a few thoughts for consideration.

Discernment can tell you if something is right or wrong.

The Holy Ghost can warn you to stay away from something or someone or someplace without a proper prayer.
Its not being closed minded to not pray about something that you have already had revealed to you as wrong. Its actually not a very wise idea to have something already told to you then ignore it and pray for the answer you already received. Hope that makes sense.

Perhaps this experiment is only for those who didnt receive a warning against etertaining Denver? In that case, i would encourage people to pray about if they should follow him or not.

[Finrock]

What about another choice; that of I didn't need to pray in the first place because I know in my heart Denver is off his rocker.

That's basically not participating, which is fine. But I would suggest: pray & see if you get an answer that confirms your assumption. That would contribute definitively to the experiment. Assuming your bias is correct is, well, just biased - even if you are correct, it's pretty closed-minded (biased), right? Say more if you think differently - I respect your position, though, basically "no need to consider it".

Im in the same boat as Kittycat51 so i hope you dont mind me responding here.

I assume you might say the same to me so I would have to respond with a few thoughts for consideration.

Discernment can tell you if something is right or wrong.

The Holy Ghost can warn you to stay away from something or someone or someplace without a proper prayer.
Its not being closed minded to not pray about something that you have already had revealed to you as wrong. Its actually not a very wise idea to have something already told to you then ignore it and pray for the answer you already received. Hope that makes sense.

Perhaps this experiment is only for those who didnt receive a warning against etertaining Denver? In that case, i would encourage people to pray about if they should follow him or not.

You're explaining away bias as if it doesn't apply to you or as if you are exempt from having to take in to account your sociocentric bias when evaluating data. We all have biases, so, that is normal. What is not normal are individuals who recognize their bias AND who are then willing to do something to mitigate their bias so they can evaluate information fairly, thoroughly, and honestly.

My question to you is, what have you done to eliminate your bias?

If you've done nothing, then you are just being closed-minded and going with your sociocentric bias. Without some action on our part to take in to account our biases, we are unlikely to be able to discern the difference between Spirit and our bias.

-Finrock

[MMbelieve]

What about another choice; that of I didn't need to pray in the first place because I know in my heart Denver is off his rocker.

That's basically not participating, which is fine. But I would suggest: pray & see if you get an answer that confirms your assumption. That would contribute definitively to the experiment. Assuming your bias is correct is, well, just biased - even if you are correct, it's pretty closed-minded (biased), right? Say more if you think differently - I respect your position, though, basically "no need to consider it".

Im in the same boat as Kittycat51 so i hope you dont mind me responding here.

I assume you might say the same to me so I would have to respond with a few thoughts for consideration.

Discernment can tell you if something is right or wrong.

The Holy Ghost can warn you to stay away from something or someone or someplace without a proper prayer.
Its not being closed minded to not pray about something that you have already had revealed to you as wrong. Its actually not a very wise idea to have something already told to you then ignore it and pray for the answer you already received. Hope that makes sense.

Perhaps this experiment is only for those who didnt receive a warning against etertaining Denver? In that case, i would encourage people to pray about if they should follow him or not.

You're explaining away bias as if it doesn't apply to you or as if you are exempt from having to take in to account your sociocentric bias when evaluating data. We all have biases, so, that is normal. What is not normal are individuals who recognize their bias AND who are then willing to do something to mitigate their bias so they can evaluate information fairly, thoroughly, and honestly.

My question to you is, what have you done to eliminate your bias?

If you've done nothing, then you are just being closed-minded and going with your sociocentric bias. Without some action on our part to take in to account our biases, we are unlikely to be able to discern the difference between Spirit and our bias.

-Finrock

I dont intend to be annoying by asking a question in response to your question but here it is...
Do you understand how the GIFT of discernment works?

Explain to me, if you would, the potential bias one might have in this specific “experiment” in the OP.

Also, are you interested in how i came to my conclusion or interested in trying to change my mind, challenge my thoughts? Something else?

My vote was for this one:
NO: God answered me in a way I recognize that I definitely should NOT accept Denver Snuffer's authoritative claim

[Finrock]

That's basically not participating, which is fine. But I would suggest: pray & see if you get an answer that confirms your assumption. That would contribute definitively to the experiment. Assuming your bias is correct is, well, just biased - even if you are correct, it's pretty closed-minded (biased), right? Say more if you think differently - I respect your position, though, basically "no need to consider it".

Im in the same boat as Kittycat51 so i hope you dont mind me responding here.

I assume you might say the same to me so I would have to respond with a few thoughts for consideration.

Discernment can tell you if something is right or wrong.

The Holy Ghost can warn you to stay away from something or someone or someplace without a proper prayer.
Its not being closed minded to not pray about something that you have already had revealed to you as wrong. Its actually not a very wise idea to have something already told to you then ignore it and pray for the answer you already received. Hope that makes sense.

Perhaps this experiment is only for those who didnt receive a warning against etertaining Denver? In that case, i would encourage people to pray about if they should follow him or not.

You're explaining away bias as if it doesn't apply to you or as if you are exempt from having to take in to account your sociocentric bias when evaluating data. We all have biases, so, that is normal. What is not normal are individuals who recognize their bias AND who are then willing to do something to mitigate their bias so they can evaluate information fairly, thoroughly, and honestly.

My question to you is, what have you done to eliminate your bias?

If you've done nothing, then you are just being closed-minded and going with your sociocentric bias. Without some action on our part to take in to account our biases, we are unlikely to be able to discern the difference between Spirit and our bias.

-Finrock

I dont intend to be annoying by asking a question in response to your question but here it is...
Do you understand how the GIFT of discernment works?

Explain to me, if you would, the potential bias one might have in this specific “experiment” in the OP.

Also, are you interested in how i came to my conclusion or interested in trying to change my mind, challenge my thoughts? Something else?

My vote was for this one:
NO: God answered me in a way I recognize that I definitely should NOT accept Denver Snuffer's authoritative claim

You're free to answer my question or not. I won't be offended either way. It might be best if you just view the question as a thought exercise, a rhetorical question, something you can ask yourself when you are feeling introspective, etc. so that the thread doesn't get derailed.

What I've stated is true. What you do with this information is up to you.

If you are really interested, then I would be willing to have a conversation about bias (maybe in a new thread) and how it manifests itself, what it does, and why its important for us to recognize it and do something about it. And, to be clear, my comments were referring not to the experiment, but, to any situation where we are evaluating information/data/ideas, especially in situations where ideas are seemingly in opposition to our ego- or sociocentric views or paradigm.

As far as your question is concerned: yes. I can only guess as to why you ask that question, but, the gift of discernment doesn't negate our need to be rational, ethical, fair-minded, and morally good.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Based on a discussion in another thread about getting answers from God & recognizing the manifestations & meaning of revelations by the power of the Holy Ghost, I decided to start an experiment in the form of this poll.

Most of you know or have heard of Denver Snuffer - he's taught & wrote much & claimed many things. The claim that I'm asking you all to help me test (confirm/deny) is his first real claim asking people to DO something which basically amounts to leaving the Church. In Mesa, Arizona, in 2014, at his 10th/final talk of his "40 Years in Mormonism" series, which he delivered each talk at different cities up & down the Idaho/Utah/Arizona "Mormon Corridor" - he said the following:

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... ration.pdf

…
If you are converted to everything said in this meeting today, and in all nine of the preceding sessions of this one talk, and you do not take action, then you do not have faith. But if you do take action, then you will receive the reward from your faith.

You need to be baptized and offer baptism to others because the LDS Church no longer preaches the doctrine of Christ, and have added to it the commandments of men.
…
I was also asked, "What do we do to get started?" I mentioned conferences. You can call conferences in your home, anytime, anyplace. All you need is to have a minimum to sustain that will sign and say that they are sustaining as part of the fellowship. In terms of those who are already ordained? You can function as a priest in the LDS Church, it is just if you are going to function under this system with others in a fellowship, among this community with these people, have a conference, and get sustained first. You do not need to be re-ordained, if you were ordained before April 2014. If you were ordained after April 2014 you should get ordained again among this community. So, there are two categories: If ordained before April 2014, get sustained by the required number in a fellowship before you perform any priestly function, including baptism and the Sacrament. If ordained after April 2014 do the same thing, but have someone ordain you again. Keep a record of that, as already explained.
…
There is a coming time of distress. Those who believe Christ’s doctrine will need to have the baptism you will minister to survive the judgments to come. This is the only way they can face Him when He comes again.

Another requirement is a record of the names of those you baptize. You do not record their email addresses, vital statistics, phone numbers, or any contact information. Only names. Therefore, after you have complied to have power to baptize, and taught them the Doctrine of Christ and they have repented, and are being baptized, their name must be recorded. You choose recorders in your fellowships, and a recorder to compile the names from all the various fellowships. Someone has to keep the names in a record. Faithfully record the name every time there is a baptism. There will be various recorders in various locations. The various recorders need to submit them to a single central record keeper on an annual basis. Have the recorders from the various fellowships identify themselves. I can give them some further direction, but there should be annually complied, a single volume, that will be deposited in a temple. Ultimately there will be a temple built.

What do you think? Would you expect God to answer such a question? Is it important enough? How would you recognize the answer as coming from God? Remember, in most cases, this is RE-baptism - most of us have already been baptized before - so this is a specific additional requirement with specific instructions tied to unverifiable (except spiritually) claims, which may or may not be true. The truth of the claims makes all the difference in whether or not the requirement is actually valid. Do you agree? It's not just a generic: "does a person need to be baptized (generically, to be saved, etc.)?" In fact, it would be somewhat similar to a person who was previously baptized in another Christian faith being taught by LDS missionaries & considering baptism by our Church's priesthood authority.

I'm asking as many of you as are willing to seek an answer from God, for yourself, and to share it by answering the poll & commenting if you would like to. Here is the question or something essentially similar: "Do I need to be re-baptized per Denver’s instructions delivered in Mesa, Arizona in 2014 at his 10th talk?” The actual instructions can be found on pages 16-17 of that pdf/talk.

Here's my thinking: If the answer is “no”, then pretty much the rest of his message can be discarded/ignored as it all builds on top of that foundation (the covenant he claims he’s been given through him, fellowships, etc, etc). He teaches that this rebaptism by one having authority, again according to instructions he has laid out, must be received to be acceptable to Christ at His coming. It’s a yes or no for each person. How does that logic sit with you? Also, it is a claim with specific context. For example, let’s say you’ve already been baptized in the (LDS) Church - if Denver’s claim is true, then that is insufficient now. Getting some kind of confirmation on Denver’s generic teachings on the necessity of baptism which are generically the same as mainstream LDS is not going to validate this need for re-baptism. So it’s specific, not generic. Just my thought. Please participate & please share. If you've already prayed in the past, you can vote & share according to that or you could repeat the experiment (you should get the same answer, right?). I believe God will answer us repeatedly, in mercy, due to the high level of uncertainty of our mortal environment. I have gotten an answer in the past but will repeat the experiment & share my results. In any case, the results should be interesting & should spark some discussion about how we all get inspiration/revelation.

FYI. When I refreshed the page just now the Poll had reset itself in reference to me, even though I had already voted. I saw that you had a new response so maybe that reset the poll? In any case, because I could vote again, I voted again. My point is that its possible that I double voted for the same option, which could skew the results.

-Finrock

[Jesef]

I've added a 4th option above which is:

NO WAY! NOT WILLING TO EVEN ASK! I ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER! (maybe by inspiration or the Holy Ghost or warning to stay away or contradicts too many of my past answers, etc. - please share anyway)

I also added the option of people being able to change their votes. I'm going to call this 4th option the "confirmation bias" option because it basically presupposes an answer. The very definition of confirmation bias is only being open to information or evidence which supports/confirms/agrees-with your strongly held beliefs (you bias).

Please consider participating in the experiment even if you think you already know the answer or have an answer. The question is very specific & for many of our brothers & sisters who are leaving our fold to follow Snuffer, it is pretty life-changing & significant (disruptive). So the NO answers, if anybody gets one, are as important as the YES answers (in fact, that spawns a new discussion). But not being willing to ask is like saying you don't believe God will answer. Are you AFRAID to ask? That would be kinda bad also since FEAR is really the opposite of FAITH/LOVE. We should be confident enough in getting NO answers from God as we are YES, otherwise we are just confirming our biases all the time. See?

[Jesef]

Based on a discussion in another thread about getting answers from God & recognizing the manifestations & meaning of revelations by the power of the Holy Ghost, I decided to start an experiment in the form of this poll.

Most of you know or have heard of Denver Snuffer - he's taught & wrote much & claimed many things. The claim that I'm asking you all to help me test (confirm/deny) is his first real claim asking people to DO something which basically amounts to leaving the Church. In Mesa, Arizona, in 2014, at his 10th/final talk of his "40 Years in Mormonism" series, which he delivered each talk at different cities up & down the Idaho/Utah/Arizona "Mormon Corridor" - he said the following:

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... ration.pdf

…
If you are converted to everything said in this meeting today, and in all nine of the preceding sessions of this one talk, and you do not take action, then you do not have faith. But if you do take action, then you will receive the reward from your faith.

You need to be baptized and offer baptism to others because the LDS Church no longer preaches the doctrine of Christ, and have added to it the commandments of men.
…
I was also asked, "What do we do to get started?" I mentioned conferences. You can call conferences in your home, anytime, anyplace. All you need is to have a minimum to sustain that will sign and say that they are sustaining as part of the fellowship. In terms of those who are already ordained? You can function as a priest in the LDS Church, it is just if you are going to function under this system with others in a fellowship, among this community with these people, have a conference, and get sustained first. You do not need to be re-ordained, if you were ordained before April 2014. If you were ordained after April 2014 you should get ordained again among this community. So, there are two categories: If ordained before April 2014, get sustained by the required number in a fellowship before you perform any priestly function, including baptism and the Sacrament. If ordained after April 2014 do the same thing, but have someone ordain you again. Keep a record of that, as already explained.
…
There is a coming time of distress. Those who believe Christ’s doctrine will need to have the baptism you will minister to survive the judgments to come. This is the only way they can face Him when He comes again.

Another requirement is a record of the names of those you baptize. You do not record their email addresses, vital statistics, phone numbers, or any contact information. Only names. Therefore, after you have complied to have power to baptize, and taught them the Doctrine of Christ and they have repented, and are being baptized, their name must be recorded. You choose recorders in your fellowships, and a recorder to compile the names from all the various fellowships. Someone has to keep the names in a record. Faithfully record the name every time there is a baptism. There will be various recorders in various locations. The various recorders need to submit them to a single central record keeper on an annual basis. Have the recorders from the various fellowships identify themselves. I can give them some further direction, but there should be annually complied, a single volume, that will be deposited in a temple. Ultimately there will be a temple built.

What do you think? Would you expect God to answer such a question? Is it important enough? How would you recognize the answer as coming from God? Remember, in most cases, this is RE-baptism - most of us have already been baptized before - so this is a specific additional requirement with specific instructions tied to unverifiable (except spiritually) claims, which may or may not be true. The truth of the claims makes all the difference in whether or not the requirement is actually valid. Do you agree? It's not just a generic: "does a person need to be baptized (generically, to be saved, etc.)?" In fact, it would be somewhat similar to a person who was previously baptized in another Christian faith being taught by LDS missionaries & considering baptism by our Church's priesthood authority.

I'm asking as many of you as are willing to seek an answer from God, for yourself, and to share it by answering the poll & commenting if you would like to. Here is the question or something essentially similar: "Do I need to be re-baptized per Denver’s instructions delivered in Mesa, Arizona in 2014 at his 10th talk?” The actual instructions can be found on pages 16-17 of that pdf/talk.

Here's my thinking: If the answer is “no”, then pretty much the rest of his message can be discarded/ignored as it all builds on top of that foundation (the covenant he claims he’s been given through him, fellowships, etc, etc). He teaches that this rebaptism by one having authority, again according to instructions he has laid out, must be received to be acceptable to Christ at His coming. It’s a yes or no for each person. How does that logic sit with you? Also, it is a claim with specific context. For example, let’s say you’ve already been baptized in the (LDS) Church - if Denver’s claim is true, then that is insufficient now. Getting some kind of confirmation on Denver’s generic teachings on the necessity of baptism which are generically the same as mainstream LDS is not going to validate this need for re-baptism. So it’s specific, not generic. Just my thought. Please participate & please share. If you've already prayed in the past, you can vote & share according to that or you could repeat the experiment (you should get the same answer, right?). I believe God will answer us repeatedly, in mercy, due to the high level of uncertainty of our mortal environment. I have gotten an answer in the past but will repeat the experiment & share my results. In any case, the results should be interesting & should spark some discussion about how we all get inspiration/revelation.

FYI. When I refreshed the page just now the Poll had reset itself in reference to me, even though I had already voted. I saw that you had a new response so maybe that reset the poll? In any case, because I could vote again, I voted again. My point is that its possible that I double voted for the same option, which could skew the results.

-Finrock

Thanks, Finrock. I added the 4th option & the option to change one's vote. Are you voting based on your past accumulated inspiration & revelation you described or did you specifically ask about the invitation to be re-baptized according to Denver's claimed authoritative instructions? I'm curious if you would be willing to do the latter, for specific experimental results.

[Finrock]

Based on a discussion in another thread about getting answers from God & recognizing the manifestations & meaning of revelations by the power of the Holy Ghost, I decided to start an experiment in the form of this poll.

Most of you know or have heard of Denver Snuffer - he's taught & wrote much & claimed many things. The claim that I'm asking you all to help me test (confirm/deny) is his first real claim asking people to DO something which basically amounts to leaving the Church. In Mesa, Arizona, in 2014, at his 10th/final talk of his "40 Years in Mormonism" series, which he delivered each talk at different cities up & down the Idaho/Utah/Arizona "Mormon Corridor" - he said the following:

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... ration.pdf

…
If you are converted to everything said in this meeting today, and in all nine of the preceding sessions of this one talk, and you do not take action, then you do not have faith. But if you do take action, then you will receive the reward from your faith.

You need to be baptized and offer baptism to others because the LDS Church no longer preaches the doctrine of Christ, and have added to it the commandments of men.
…
I was also asked, "What do we do to get started?" I mentioned conferences. You can call conferences in your home, anytime, anyplace. All you need is to have a minimum to sustain that will sign and say that they are sustaining as part of the fellowship. In terms of those who are already ordained? You can function as a priest in the LDS Church, it is just if you are going to function under this system with others in a fellowship, among this community with these people, have a conference, and get sustained first. You do not need to be re-ordained, if you were ordained before April 2014. If you were ordained after April 2014 you should get ordained again among this community. So, there are two categories: If ordained before April 2014, get sustained by the required number in a fellowship before you perform any priestly function, including baptism and the Sacrament. If ordained after April 2014 do the same thing, but have someone ordain you again. Keep a record of that, as already explained.
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There is a coming time of distress. Those who believe Christ’s doctrine will need to have the baptism you will minister to survive the judgments to come. This is the only way they can face Him when He comes again.

Another requirement is a record of the names of those you baptize. You do not record their email addresses, vital statistics, phone numbers, or any contact information. Only names. Therefore, after you have complied to have power to baptize, and taught them the Doctrine of Christ and they have repented, and are being baptized, their name must be recorded. You choose recorders in your fellowships, and a recorder to compile the names from all the various fellowships. Someone has to keep the names in a record. Faithfully record the name every time there is a baptism. There will be various recorders in various locations. The various recorders need to submit them to a single central record keeper on an annual basis. Have the recorders from the various fellowships identify themselves. I can give them some further direction, but there should be annually complied, a single volume, that will be deposited in a temple. Ultimately there will be a temple built.

What do you think? Would you expect God to answer such a question? Is it important enough? How would you recognize the answer as coming from God? Remember, in most cases, this is RE-baptism - most of us have already been baptized before - so this is a specific additional requirement with specific instructions tied to unverifiable (except spiritually) claims, which may or may not be true. The truth of the claims makes all the difference in whether or not the requirement is actually valid. Do you agree? It's not just a generic: "does a person need to be baptized (generically, to be saved, etc.)?" In fact, it would be somewhat similar to a person who was previously baptized in another Christian faith being taught by LDS missionaries & considering baptism by our Church's priesthood authority.

I'm asking as many of you as are willing to seek an answer from God, for yourself, and to share it by answering the poll & commenting if you would like to. Here is the question or something essentially similar: "Do I need to be re-baptized per Denver’s instructions delivered in Mesa, Arizona in 2014 at his 10th talk?” The actual instructions can be found on pages 16-17 of that pdf/talk.

Here's my thinking: If the answer is “no”, then pretty much the rest of his message can be discarded/ignored as it all builds on top of that foundation (the covenant he claims he’s been given through him, fellowships, etc, etc). He teaches that this rebaptism by one having authority, again according to instructions he has laid out, must be received to be acceptable to Christ at His coming. It’s a yes or no for each person. How does that logic sit with you? Also, it is a claim with specific context. For example, let’s say you’ve already been baptized in the (LDS) Church - if Denver’s claim is true, then that is insufficient now. Getting some kind of confirmation on Denver’s generic teachings on the necessity of baptism which are generically the same as mainstream LDS is not going to validate this need for re-baptism. So it’s specific, not generic. Just my thought. Please participate & please share. If you've already prayed in the past, you can vote & share according to that or you could repeat the experiment (you should get the same answer, right?). I believe God will answer us repeatedly, in mercy, due to the high level of uncertainty of our mortal environment. I have gotten an answer in the past but will repeat the experiment & share my results. In any case, the results should be interesting & should spark some discussion about how we all get inspiration/revelation.

FYI. When I refreshed the page just now the Poll had reset itself in reference to me, even though I had already voted. I saw that you had a new response so maybe that reset the poll? In any case, because I could vote again, I voted again. My point is that its possible that I double voted for the same option, which could skew the results.

-Finrock

Thanks, Finrock. I added the 4th option & the option to change one's vote. Are you voting based on your past accumulated inspiration & revelation you described or did you specifically ask about the invitation to be re-baptized according to Denver's claimed authoritative instructions? I'm curious if you would be willing to do the latter, for specific experimental results.

I specifically asked to be inspired by the Holy Ghost as I investigated Denver Snuffer's words. I prayerfully approached new ideas he presented. I ask God, specifically, to know if a few ideas he stated were true. Initially I felt Denver Snuffer was inspired and I still believe many of the things he teaches are inspired (I also think many things spoken by Muhammad to be inspired and many other people/individuals that I don't "follow"). I did not approach Denver Snuffer as if he were an apostate or even a danger in any way. If anything I probably had a slight bias in his favor due to some of the quotes I've read from him in other places. But, in the end, I received what I believe was specific inspiration, direction, and guidance in response to my specific prayers at the time. Like I said, at the time Denver was a faithful member but towards the end of my investigation, I had my suspicions based on the impressions and feelings that I had as I investigated his material, that Denver was setting himself up. By the time the 10 lectures came out, it became more and more clear to me what his designs were, again, based on the inspiration I believe I received when I investigated Denver. His 10th lecture turned out to be a vindication to me of what I had felt much earlier on, before he was public about his apostasy from the Church and his feelings towards the Church leadership.

I'm not opposed to asking God specifically, as sincerely as I possibly can, if I should accept Denver's claims as true.

-Finrock

[Jesef]

I have several "mediums" of communication which God uses with me. I am seeking an answer via as many of them as God is willing to answer.

Two of them so far have been definitively NO answers.

One is simple prayer/meditation and listening for an answer, in spirit. The Spirit has a way of manifesting its power to me which I would call spiritual energy. It feels a little bit like spiritual electricity. I've learned over the years that it is probably some kind of spiritual energy movement between parts of the spiritual body (other cultures call them "chakras" - maybe), like the mind/head & heart/chest is a frequently used circuit. Sometimes it feels like a wave of energy sweeping over my whole being. It's very reliable & always lead me to do good, to be humble, to repent, to do right. In my experience it has not been counterfeited or led me astray or deceived me.

In this case I asked the question positively: "Do I need to be re-baptized per Denver’s instructions delivered in Mesa, Arizona in 2014 at his 10th talk?” Answer: NO
And then I asked the reverse: "Do I NOT need to be re-baptized per Denver’s instructions delivered in Mesa, Arizona in 2014 at his 10th talk?” Answer: YES (or Correct)

I have another medium of communication which some might consider somewhat controversial but I believe it falls right in line with Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, & our Church history. It is a device which I have consecrated in the name of the Lord to reveal truth & good to me. It can give YES, NO, & OTHER (sometimes means "it depends" or "it doesn't matter" or "not good to reveal") answers. It is like a urim & thummim or seer stone - Joseph had his seer stone or "peep stone" long before the Restoration & he used it for a good portion of the Book of Mormon translation; Oliver Cowdery was a water "witch" or water-finder & he had the gift of using a rod, yew or peach branch shaped like a wishbone, which would vibrate when he was close to underground water - he could also use it to get revelatory answers & God acknowledged this gift in the original version of D&C 8 here: “this is not all for thou hast another the gift of working with the sprout Behold it hath told you things Behold there is no other power save God that can cause this thing of Nature to work in your hands for it is the work of God & therefore whatsoever ye shall ask to tell you by that means that will he grant unto you that ye shall know remember that without faith ye can do nothing” in the original D&C 8, later changed to the more palatable “gift of Aaron”, found here: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... 9-b-dc-8/2 compared to https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 3?lang=eng. The answers are extremely consistent & they have proven consistent with medium #1 (prayer/meditation). So I repeated the experiment my consecrated device:

First, I asked the question positively: "Do I need to be re-baptized per Denver’s instructions delivered in Mesa, Arizona in 2014 at his 10th talk?” Answer: NO
And then I asked the reverse: "Do I NOT need to be re-baptized per Denver’s instructions delivered in Mesa, Arizona in 2014 at his 10th talk?” Answer: YES (or Correct)

The third medium of communication of personal revelation which God frequently uses with me are powerful, vivid, even lucid dreams. I will try to engage this method over the next few nights & report the result.

[mirkwood]

The gift of discernment and the whisperings of the Holy Ghost told me DS is an apostate. I didn't need to ask.

[Jesef]

I understand why some of you have chosen option 4 - it wasn't a specific question type of answer. It was beneath you or wasn't worth your time or it was so obviously an apostate deception/detour that you didn't need to.

But, consider the experiment RIGHT NOW as an opportunity to get a YES or NO from God. Are you willing to try that? If you are correct in your assumption or your discernment, then you may very well get a NO & it will be a good learning experience.

As you can see from my own experiment & results so far, I am not afraid to ask the question both ways (phrased positively & negatively) & I get to experience both types of answers in response. God is not offended by our inquiries - we live in a world of uncertainty & the spiritual is largely unverifiable by anything but spiritual means.

Just to be clear, the answers I've received disconfirm/deny Denver's claim & invitation to be re-baptized (at least for me, I can only answer for myself).

[mirkwood]

But, consider the experiment RIGHT NOW as an opportunity to get a YES or NO from God. Are you willing to try that? If you are correct in your assumption or your discernment, then you may very well get a NO & it will be a good learning experience.

The YES/NO answer was given. I don't need to ask.

[John Tavner]

But, consider the experiment RIGHT NOW as an opportunity to get a YES or NO from God. Are you willing to try that? If you are correct in your assumption or your discernment, then you may very well get a NO & it will be a good learning experience.

The YES/NO answer was given. I don't need to ask.

While I respect that the Spirit can speak to all of us, I think it is wise sometimes to confirm that the prompting truly came from God rather from a: some other spirit or b. our own biases. That being said I respect if it really was the Spirit telling you, but I often think we fail to confirm with God our thoughts or throughts given to us.

To be very clear, I do not follow Snuffer or believe much of what he says, though I believe him to speak some truth. For me it isn't worth it to try and disseminate that truth from error (unless I am prompted otherwise).

Edit: let me give an example. I once felt prompted to speak with a friend about an issue. I confirmed that with the Lord - in prayer I felt my initial impressions was wrong. I was confused. I worked it out and realized that it was wrong because I had too much of my own personal emotion invested. ONce I was able to divest myself of the message and was right before God and myself and shared the message in love, then I felt like it was correct and the message was slightely tweaked. That doesn not mean to say that we shouldn't trust promptings, it just shows us taht until we align our hearts with God the message with be slightely skewed and we might not get or share everything we need to.

[Jesef]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that 50% of those who have voted so far seem unwilling to even try the experiment or to ask. Although I think some of them are really "NO" answers based on inspiration & discernment - they just didn't feel the need or desire to formally ask the question & try the specific question experiment (to even get a formal NO). The point of the experiment is to ASK, even if you believe you already have an answer or know the answer. I'm curious how those of you who have voted for option #4 can call it anything but "confirmation bias". It seems like not being willing to ask is based on FEAR (that's the opposite of FAITH, folks): the fear that you will get an answer you don't like or want, or that you are somehow offending God or wasting Their time by asking a stupid question. Is it a "disloyal" question? This is a very interesting reaction to an experiment of asking the Lord a specific question. I think it's also interesting that the Moroni 10:3-5 "promise" instructs to ask "if these things are NOT true..." (the negative phrasing) rather than "if these things are true..." (the positive phrasing) - I've asked the experimental question both ways (detailed in previous post).

Confirmation bias only accepts supportive information & it either ignores or denies anything unsupportive. When disconfirming information or evidence is encountered it produces discomfort known as "cognitive dissonance" & the confirmation bias's default reaction to that information or evidence is to discount it or ignore it altogether. Cognitive dissonance is a major reason for so many of our membership going through faith crises today, because there is SO MUCH information now easily available which contradicts the idealistic & simplistic narrative, like of Church History, for example. The Church is definitely reacting to this, too - in a good way mostly - by becoming more transparent & forthright, correcting the narrative to reflect reality.

[mirkwood]

Your assumption is that people who received answers are not already familiar with when an answer is really from God. I don't need to tempt God when I already have an answer.

[Jesef]

So you believe asking God a question you believe They have already given you an answer is “tempting” the Lord (kind of like the 116 pages)?

[MMbelieve]

Your assumption is that people who received answers are not already familiar with when an answer is really from God. I don't need to tempt God when I already have an answer.

I agree and thanks for stating this.
The idea behind the thread is a good idea, to receive confirmation of our “thoughts” on any particular matter is good.

However, once you have something confirmed to you continuing to ask is foolish and shows a lack of faith.

[MMbelieve]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that 50% of those who have voted so far seem unwilling to even try the experiment or to ask. Although I think some of them are really "NO" answers based on inspiration & discernment - they just didn't feel the need or desire to formally ask the question & try the specific question experiment (to even get a formal NO). The point of the experiment is to ASK, even if you believe you already have an answer or know the answer. I'm curious how those of you who have voted for option #4 can call it anything but "confirmation bias". It seems like not being willing to ask is based on FEAR (that's the opposite of FAITH, folks): the fear that you will get an answer you don't like or want, or that you are somehow offending God or wasting Their time by asking a stupid question. Is it a "disloyal" question? This is a very interesting reaction to an experiment of asking the Lord a specific question. I think it's also interesting that the Moroni 10:3-5 "promise" instructs to ask "if these things are NOT true..." (the negative phrasing) rather than "if these things are true..." (the positive phrasing) - I've asked the experimental question both ways (detailed in previous post).

Confirmation bias only accepts supportive information & it either ignores or denies anything unsupportive. When disconfirming information or evidence is encountered it produces discomfort known as "cognitive dissonance" & the confirmation bias's default reaction to that information or evidence is to discount it or ignore it altogether. Cognitive dissonance is a major reason for so many of our membership going through faith crises today, because there is SO MUCH information now easily available which contradicts the idealistic & simplistic narrative, like of Church History, for example. The Church is definitely reacting to this, too - in a good way mostly - by becoming more transparent & forthright, correcting the narrative to reflect reality.

As you have shared your specific methods for receiving answers know that not everyone experiments the same as you do.
I do not have a magic 8 ball type of device that gives me answers from God to questions I ask. I do not have to find different mediums to test if I get the same or different answer.

I get the feeling your actually doing a much different experiment that your letting on here. It sounds like your testing mediums of spiritual communications rather than spiritual communication itself. You possibly doing so to try to cover all bases of weeding out any “bias”....possibly doubts (to be more exact) that you have.

In reality, this post is becoming pointless. I would ask you to look into your motive here and seewhy YOU need it and stop placing your thoughts onto others. Its quite possible for a person to reason a topic, such as Denver, and receive inspiration if hes right or wrong or should listen or not listen to him without having to double or triple down on the “receiving”.

Sounds like an issue of faith and doubting yourself. Not everyone doubts when they receive of the spirit. Some have learned to know if its their own thoughts or spirit promptings.

You really ought to stop judging so much and saying everyone who voted no is scared or biased or whatever else. Seems to me, your not really getting it.

[Finrock]

Your assumption is that people who received answers are not already familiar with when an answer is really from God. I don't need to tempt God when I already have an answer.

I agree and thanks for stating this.
The idea behind the thread is a good idea, to receive confirmation of our “thoughts” on any particular matter is good.

However, once you have something confirmed to you continuing to ask is foolish and shows a lack of faith.

Can you define how its foolish without referencing your unfounded assumption? Also, can you explain how it shows a lack of faith?

-Finrock

[MMbelieve]

Your assumption is that people who received answers are not already familiar with when an answer is really from God. I don't need to tempt God when I already have an answer.

I agree and thanks for stating this.
The idea behind the thread is a good idea, to receive confirmation of our “thoughts” on any particular matter is good.

However, once you have something confirmed to you continuing to ask is foolish and shows a lack of faith.

Can you define how its foolish without referencing your unfounded assumption? Also, can you explain how it shows a lack of faith?

-Finrock

I highly doubt I can satisfy your requirements in any answer I attempt to give.

How is it not foolish or a lack of faith to ask after you got an answer?

The point of getting an answer is that you no longer have a question.
I really dont get why its more complicated than that.

I know that God can confirm his answers but my statement was once its been confirmed, why do you still then have a need to ask?