When is rebellion the answer?

[Primary Outcast]

Much good has come from rebellions throughout history that freed the oppressed, however revolutions are not the pattern that is set forth in the Book of Mormon and I can't think of any in the Bible. From what I remember the Lord's people usually receive an inheritance of land, or they escape oppressive governments, or they submit to oppressive governments, or the Lord fights the battle for the people.

D&C 134:5

We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly

This scriptures seems to say that we should sustain and uphold the government as long as our inherent and inalienable rights are being protected.

My question is, what is worth fighting for? At what point, if ever, are we justified in saying enough is enough? The practice of abortions violates inalienable rights, would it be Christian to burn abortion clinics to the ground? What about defending yourself with force from an unlawful arrest?

The Nephites were constantly defending themselves, Will the LDS ever be required to take up arms? Personally I don't think rebellion is the answer, and the Lord will fight His battles and our battles, and the saints will never battle anyone in these last days, but it's fun to think about

[inho]

What about defending yourself with force from an unlawful arrest?

If we follow the pattern in Book of Daniel (three men in the fiery furnace; Daniel in the lion's den), we learn that civil disobedience is acceptable. However, neither Sadrak, Mesak and Abednego nor Daniel tried to defend themselves when they were unlawfully arrested.

[jsk]

So long as We the People have the right to vote and change those who govern us, rebellion is not the answer.

Of course, that brings up another question...does our right to vote and change our leadership really exist or is it an illusion? If you are familiar with “Tragedy and Hope” by Carroll Quigley you will understand what I’m getting at here.

[mes5464]

So long as We the People have the right to vote and change those who govern us, rebellion is not the answer.

Of course, that brings up another question...does our right to vote and change our leadership really exist or is it an illusion? If you are familiar with “Tragedy and Hope” by Carroll Quigley you will understand what I’m getting at here.

Disagree

[mes5464]

This is what you fight for:

Alma 48:10,24
10 And thus he was preparing to asupport their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of bChristians.

...

24 Nevertheless, they could not suffer to lay down their lives, that their awives and their children should be bmassacred by the barbarous ccruelty of those who were once their brethren, yea, and had ddissented from their church, and had left them and had gone to destroy them by joining the Lamanites.


Alma 43:9,45
9 And now the design of the Nephites was to support their lands, and their houses, and their awives, and their children, that they might preserve them from the hands of their enemies; and also that they might preserve their brights and their privileges, yea, and also their cliberty, that they might worship God according to their desires.

...

45 Nevertheless, the Nephites were inspired by a abetter cause, for they were not bfighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their cliberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

Alma 53:17
17 And they entered into a covenant to fight for the liberty of the Nephites, yea, to protect the land unto the laying down of their lives; yea, even they covenanted that they never would give up their liberty, but they would fight in all cases to protect the Nephites and themselves from bondage.

[gkearney]

however revolutions are not the pattern that is set forth in the Book of Mormon and I can't think of any in the Bible.

There is the Maccabean Rebellion. In the First and Second Books of the Maccabees, the Maccabean Rebellion is described as a response to cultural oppression. Of course you're going to need to find a Catholic edition of the Bible to read about it in scripture.

[Primary Outcast]

This is what you fight for:

Alma 48:10,24
10 And thus he was preparing to asupport their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of bChristians.

...

24 Nevertheless, they could not suffer to lay down their lives, that their awives and their children should be bmassacred by the barbarous ccruelty of those who were once their brethren, yea, and had ddissented from their church, and had left them and had gone to destroy them by joining the Lamanites.


Alma 43:9,45
9 And now the design of the Nephites was to support their lands, and their houses, and their awives, and their children, that they might preserve them from the hands of their enemies; and also that they might preserve their brights and their privileges, yea, and also their cliberty, that they might worship God according to their desires.

...

45 Nevertheless, the Nephites were inspired by a abetter cause, for they were not bfighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their cliberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

Alma 53:17
17 And they entered into a covenant to fight for the liberty of the Nephites, yea, to protect the land unto the laying down of their lives; yea, even they covenanted that they never would give up their liberty, but they would fight in all cases to protect the Nephites and themselves from bondage.

These verses are spot on and add a lot of clarity. 4 out of 5 verses talk about defending their children. In our country millions of children are "massacred by the barbarous cruelty of those who were once [our] brethren" through the abortion process.

Alma 43:9, 45 makes it clear that fighting for rights to worship is justified. This is currently under attack and has been taken from some people already by way of ACA and gay marriage.

Alma 53:17 says they fought to prevent bondage. Many people here are in bondage by way of the welfare programs and taxes.

Today's Christians as a whole aren't in the same situation as the Nephites, but there are definitely some people in our country right now going through these exact circumstances.

The line is getting blurry.

[lundbaek]

I don't believe we should assume the Lord will fight our battles without our doing all we can ourselves to protect our freedoms/liberty. And IMNSHO Latter-day Saints generally are not doing anywhere near the things that latter-day prophets have told us to do by way of protecting the freedoms/liberty that He intended us to enjoy.

Just voting is not enuf. I could cite numerous occasions when we Latter-day Saints were told by prophets and apostles to get familiar with the principles of the US Constitution as it was meant to be understood, and to learn about things happening that are destroying our freedoms/liberty and a least try to oppose them and turn things around.

[lundbaek]

As follow-up to my immediately above post: So one might ask "How can I get familiar with the principles of the US Constitution, especially as it was meant to be understood, how can I learn about things that are destroying our freedoms/liberty, and how can I oppose them and turn things around ?" My answer to those questions is to suggest you get the Lord involved in your efforts. From my experiences in this I believe I can safely say that the Lord will guide you in your efforts; perhaps not in the same directions as He has led me, but in ways that will best suit your circumstances, abilities and interests

[Jamescm]

When it comes to resisting or not resisting unlawful arrest, what exactly defines an "arrest"? If those in government have obtained their seats through conspiracy and wickedness and who do not maintain our unalienable rights, does any arrest under their laws render us arrested, or are we prisoners instead? If CPS breaks into your home on an unsubstantiated anonymous tip, finds everything claimed was false, and takes your children anyway, and you know you'll be stuck months later in legal limbo over their ever-changing goals and back-covering doublespeak without getting them back, is it appropriate to use force to preserve your children?

The children who didn't resist arrest were only under "arrest" because of a foreign invader who stole them away form their nation. If those in the Church began to be arrested for being in the Church, knowing that giving in will not end the crimes committed against us, would a consistent and violent effort to resist maximize the number of arresters who would stop and think twice about committing their crime, helping save their souls? Can the blood of police and soldiers committing wrongful arrests help discourage further wrongful arrests, preserving the innocent?

What about the Church's stance on it? Does it even matter? The Church excommunicated a German man during World War II for not supporting the German government during the war, then posthumously restored his membership and ordinance status-after Germany fell and any tolerance toward the Nazi flavor of communism became grossly unpopular, of course. American revolutionaries are revered in the Church, but they also won their fight. Those in the Church who attempted to stop the BLM's evils without injuring a single person were disavowed by Church PR if I remember correctly, and Elder Oaks spoke ill of a woman's decision not to legally validate homosexual "marriage"-something pushed illegally through by unelected judicial fiat based on something not in the constitution, without having had even a chance to fulfill a two weeks' notice resignation letter. Would she have been instead celebrated by Elder Oaks if it were the catalyst that started a pushback which restored and preserved marriage?

We saints have the greatest responsibility of all peoples to recognize and preserve righteous government, because we of all peoples have the greatest measures for learning and understanding righteous government. Yet I also feel great pressure and no leeway nor forgiveness in making the "right" decision, for fear of my placing my very life on the line for true but unpopular principles being decried by those who should most earnestly support me and my efforts.

Say President Trump abuses power to preserve a freedom that the current congress is trying to take away, blood erupts on city streets for it, and the military I work for wants to arm me and send me to violently quell one or the other side. If I go with the demands put on me, am I absolved? I don't buy that. If I resist the demands and abandon my post either through indecision or because I believe the side I'm meant to oppress is the morally correct one based on Church principles, will I be censured for not doing my legal duty? Will my final ecclesiastic status depend on how the war ends?

For every righteous "pacifist" in scriptural history, there is a righteous warrior. For every time a people fled from or submitted to unrighteous government, there is a time a people-at the command or permission of God-fought unrighteous government by the shedding of blood.

Church leaders declared that the Church shall no longer flee and that we would fight the American government seeking to harass us if necessary, yet in every little way today the Church seems to espouse the easier but evil-encouraging route of submission to the very secret combinations it spent decades telling us to fight and resist.

This is one question I don't have an answer to.

[True]

.

[True]

Church leaders declared that the Church shall no longer flee and that we would fight the American government seeking to harass us if necessary, yet in every little way today the Church seems to espouse the easier but evil-encouraging route of submission to the very secret combinations it spent decades telling us to fight and resist.

This is one question I don't have an answer to.

The result of all of the fiery sermons from the pulpit like this was the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Seriously, go read the Journal of Discourses right before the massacre. As a Lee of the John D. Lee’s, I would rather die obeying my conscience than follow what I thought was my duty because of a highly charged political situation.

[Primary Outcast]

Here's a possible scenario within the next 5 years...

CPS gets a report that bigotry and hatred (aka tradition families) is being taught in the homes of your neighbors so they come and take the kids to safety. Then they take your sister's kids. They take more kids every day. What do you do when they knock on your door? What if they never come to your door, Is it ok as long as they are only taking other people's kids?

[Juliet]

If someone takes away your freedom more than three times, you can defend yourself. If you choose not to, then you will receive many more blessings.

I read someone say that when someone is harmed the universe makes it up to them with a greater gift. So, when you hurt someone, the only person who really gets hurt is you, and the person you hurt will kind of benefit, in a way.

The problem is that so much of what happens to us we allow and agree too. For example the birth certificate is a contract that gives the state rights to your children. Of course, you have to have a birth certificate to be a part of society to get a job and to survive. These legal contracts are taken very seriously and so, we are destroyed by a lack of knowledge. Most people allowed these changes to occur without seeing harm in it. These parasitic social plays should have never been allowed to begin with. By the time we see it's harm, it's too late. The parasite is so integrated with society that anything done to destroy it will also destroy the host.

It would take Divine Intervention such as God sending Moses to free the Israelites to restore our freedom.

Most people want their freedom but they also support the parasitic entities that steal freedom. You can't have it both ways.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Those who take up the sword, shall die by the sword! If one thinks they can take on Babylon, they are dilutional at best!

All those who will not take up the sword must flee unto Zion for safety. Our hope is in Zion, and if we will not consecrate all our possessions, marrying the widows and orphans (old Maids) and seek first the kingdom with all of our hearts, we shall not be worth of Zion, and it shall never come.

So, what can you do when an apostate church has rejected the New and Everlasting Covenant, having been taken over by the children of the adversary? One must flee from the wickedness unto the mountains of Adonai and separate yourselves from those who make friends of mammon and embrace the idolatrys of the world.

If that is more than you can bear, you will never be worthy of the kingdom!

[harakim]

I have thought a lot about the scenario of the government taking my kids. I have thought that might be a line. I don't know where the lines are but I think they will be crossed in the next ten years. If I'm not ready to know what to do beforehand, then I will be doomed to succumb to them.