Poll: LDS church is true, but everyone is false?

[Primary Outcast]

I'm amazed about the amount of backlash I see on this forum regarding President Nelson or past presidents. I believe that the current prophet is the Mouth of God, and when it comes to religion, administration, doctrine, money, etc I don't have to worry about following and believing his words.

There are many in this forum that have other opinions and I am curious about the beliefs of others here and to see how common different beliefs are.

How is it possible to pay tithing and go to the temple but not believe in current prophets? How can the church be true but the prophet is false?

[Sunain]

Remember this is an open forum, so you get a lot of non-members, members without a testimony of the church as well ex-members posting here. I have also noticed the vast increase in the number of people not sustaining the prophet and 12 as well with these inspired changes and it is deeply troubling. I'm concerned that the Utah and surrounding states haven't been as battle hardened as the rest of the worldwide saints have been in their testimony of the church. The sifting is real and we can see it happening in His church even now. The amount of anti-church and anti-religious propaganda in traditional media and social media is increasing which is why I am glad to see that the prophet is really trying to get the members to do more personal study to increase their knowledge and testimony of His church and the scriptures. Everyone can have their opinion, but the Lord has His say and it is found plainly in the scriptures.

[Durzan]

The Church is true and the Q15 are prophets, but at times I find it hard to tell exactly what is going on up there. All I know is that things are not as they seem within the church, and things are not as we would hope. The church is in very real danger right now.

[Rose Garden]

I say "other" because I think the phrase "the church is true" is ambiguous and vague. What does it mean? Does it mean that it's the only church being directed by Jesus Christ on earth? Does it mean all of the people of the church are true disciples of Jesus Christ? Does it mean everything taught in the church is true? Does it mean the structure of the church is the true structure of God's church? There are so many possible interpretations in that statement. I would say, if you are going to make a claim, say what you actually mean. (Majored in English, so....)

[Trucker]

I don't think it's helpful to make buckets of possibilities for things like this. It leads to assumptions about people and why they do what they do and think like they do. If we set up the possibilities, then we start eliminating some and the get a false sense of understanding the situation because there's only one or two options left. It's a fragile perspective that can cause the whole thing to shatter. It reminds me of the end of Logan's Run when the computer can't process that statement that "There is no sanctuary" because everything is built on the assumption that there is, and so it just explodes.

There's a lot of "all or nothing" in the church which generally is not healthy I don't think. The main reason actually is because if there's something that "does not compute" then people have a tendency to reject the whole thing. If it's all or nothing, once there's one thing that seems amiss, it all must be wrong. Some people may actually never finds anything amiss, and feel pretty confident that the problem with other people is that they aren't just accepting everything as fine. But when that person runs into something they might find amiss, they can often have a really hard time dealing with it. And until then, they might be very judgmental or dismissive of other people's concerns.

But that doesn't mean that anyone who has a problem is right. It's healthy to be able to ignore and filter out stuff and people we don't like. We don't have to deal with every squeaky wheel. We don't have to make everyone agree with us or see it our way.

It would be a massive headache to try to explain everything that's happened in the church as being perfect, without error, according to the Lord's will, etc. I think it's healthier to focus on our experiences now and not try to apologize for other people in the past, especially since they aren't here to defend themselves. I don't know what Brigham Young said in St. Joseph Utah in 1872 (or whatever) and I don't feel obligated to defend it or even accept it, if it's not part of my religious experience today. I think it's very freeing. And I don't have to categorize it or place it into a pre-defined bucket.

So for today, if someone doesn't seem right, we don't have to categorize it. We can just discuss the merits of it. We don't have to fit it into a predefined bucket to figure out whether it's ok or not.

[Alaris]

I also voted for other. There is this tunnel vision mentality among our church that we are true and everyone else is false. Before you drop your herbal tea, the church is true, and President Nelson holds the keys we claim he does. However, consider these scriptures:

D&C 133:26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
..
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim[that's us], my servants.


2 Nephi 29:10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

There are other prophets out there - other tribes - who are a part of Israel and the Kingdom of God. Finally, consider the covenant in the temple that includes the name of our church. The wording of that covenant also includes the fact this covenant is applicable to what I am saying here, without going into too much detail.

Edit: Oh yeah, here's a good one as well that Moroni quoted to Joseph Smith incidentally. This scripture indicates the re-joining of Ephraim [us] to Judah.

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

This prophecy may not necessarily mean the Jews will become mormons ladies and gentleman. There is a reason they've been practicing the lesser law all this time imho. The temple in Jerusalem may not be an Ephraim temple. The levites will be cleansed to offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness (Malachi 3.)

[kittycat51]

“Let me say that we appreciate the truth in all churches and the good which they do. We say to the people, in effect, you bring with you all the good that you have, and then let us see if we can add to it. That is the spirit of this work...” ~ President Gordon B Hinckley

[Thinker]

As Meli mentioned, what is meant by “true”?
I believe there is truly a Mormon church - it truly exists.
And as Trucker mentioned, it’s not all or nothing.
How much of the doctrine is historically true - probably little.
How much of the doctrine is spiritually true - I’d say 75%. (25% false - depending on which time period of the church).

How much of the cultural practices are true - have integrity and Christlike? That depends on the wards, city, country etc, but maybe 1 - 20%. Maybe more if you judge based on the herd mentality some inherited, and have good hearts and do as well as they can with what they’ve been told. Generally, it seems that a relatively few do the most service... and of those, if they discovered you didn’t worship church leaders as required, they may reveal darker sides. So it’s tough to say. Only God knows our hearts.

[Thinker]

How can the church be true but the prophet is false?

What if truth was how you treated yourself and others? What if what you said, read, which services you attended or not, what money you blindly donated, testimony, etc didn’t matter. All that mattered was how well you loved. And by love, I mean loving based on truth - striving for what’s best and good for yourself and others - humbly, through trial and error - active faith.

What would be true then?

[Davka]

I also voted for other. There is this tunnel vision mentality among our church that we are true and everyone else is false. Before you drop your herbal tea, the church is true, and President Nelson holds the keys we claim he does. However, consider these scriptures:

D&C 133:26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
..
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim[that's us], my servants.


2 Nephi 29:10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

There are other prophets out there - other tribes - who are a part of Israel and the Kingdom of God. Finally, consider the covenant in the temple that includes the name of our church. The wording of that covenant also includes the fact this covenant is applicable to what I am saying here, without going into too much detail.

Edit: Oh yeah, here's a good one as well that Moroni quoted to Joseph Smith incidentally. This scripture indicates the re-joining of Ephraim [us] to Judah.

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

This prophecy may not necessarily mean the Jews will become mormons ladies and gentleman. There is a reason they've been practicing the lesser law all this time imho. The temple in Jerusalem may not be an Ephraim temple. The levites will be cleansed to offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness (Malachi 3.)

I was actually drinking an herbal tea when I read this. Hahaha!

[simpleton]

Luke 19:

45And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; 46Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

47And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him, 48And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.

Mark 11:


15And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. 18And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine..

John 2:
13And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

The murderers of Christ ( Pharisees and Saducees) controlled/ruled the Temple and the people. And they had been ruling for some time. Yet Jesus still called it "My House" and also " My Fathers house" , Inspite of the wickedness therein....

So as to the question of this OP, its happened before, why couldn't it happen today....

[ParticleMan]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (note the capitalization, D&C 115:4) is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30).

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

This might be helpful:
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-a ... ing-church

[Thinker]

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

How do you know if someone is truly serving God?
Isn’t talk cheap - “faith without works dead”?
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some fancy malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

The Church is true and the Q15 are prophets, but at times I find it hard to tell exactly what is going on up there. All I know is that things are not as they seem within the church, and things are not as we would hope. The church is in very real danger right now.

I agree mostly. I think saying "the Church is true" is our way of Mormon virtue signaling... We collectively don't even know what that means other than that the person who says it is "in the boat". Our children mindlessly recite this at sacrament meeting and when we become adults that phrase is in our subconscious deep, like a warm soft blanket. When we hear people say it it is comforting.

I agree the Church is in danger. It's not in danger in that it will collapse or go out of existence. It's historical and exclusivity claims are on life support. As the cracks in these foundational beliefs become obvious to almost everyone, it creates a lot of uncertainty, and changes the entire culture of the Church.

[JohnnyL]

Yes, the Church is in danger. Well, not really.

Those who profess to be members and disciples, but don't follow His anointed and appointed, are in danger.

Yes, they are mortal, fallible men. I've personally witnessed that, more than once. They are not experts on all things.
They are also PROPHETS, a lesson the Spirit literally physically taught me to honor and respect.
Unfortunately?, it takes true humility--the opposite of pride--to do that.

"True and living"--I imagine the "living" part is that it's the only church that is "alive" through being attached to the vine/ roots, and the Spirit.

[Thinker]

The Church is true and the Q15 are prophets, but at times I find it hard to tell exactly what is going on up there. All I know is that things are not as they seem within the church, and things are not as we would hope. The church is in very real danger right now.

I agree mostly. I think saying "the Church is true" is our way of Mormon virtue signaling... We collectively don't even know what that means other than that the person who says it is "in the boat". Our children mindlessly recite this at sacrament meeting and when we become adults that phrase is in our subconscious deep, like a warm soft blanket. When we hear people say it it is comforting.

I agree the Church is in danger. It's not in danger in that it will collapse or go out of existence. It's historical and exclusivity claims are on life support. As the cracks in these foundational beliefs become obvious to almost everyone, it creates a lot of uncertainty, and changes the entire culture of the Church.

I hope & pray that members of the church will more fervently seek spiritual strength by seeing Mormonism and Christianity by the spirit (no more letter) of the law. And I hope they will grow up - in the sense of not looking to parental-like authority with how to think. The church - as far as members go - is good, but I fear too many’s goodness is dependent on orders from above. And trusting in the flesh isn’t a good idea.

It seems that the church leaders have realized that the religious arm of their corporate empire is not as lucrative as others and are gradually shrinking that arm - less time in church, no more religious home/visiting teaching, realigning mission boundaries to include more, closing down 12 missions (https://www.thechurchnews.com/global/20 ... yO78swmUWY). Since temple worship/genealogy bring in more money - they may continue to grow, but it seems much of the le$$ financially profitable parts are being diminished.

[Primary Outcast]

Thanks to everyone that participated in the poll. I am surprised by the results thus far. From what I've seen on this forum I was expecting to see my votes for options 2, 3, and 4, but it is also interesting that in an LDS forum less than 60% of the voters believe that Christ's church was restored & the 15 are prophets as they claim to be. I think that the "Other" votes probably fit into one of the 2, 3, or 4 categories to some degree.

I am not looking for a debate, but better understanding. There are at least a half dozen accounts of people saying that the church will never fall into apostasy and that the majority of the 12 will never lead the church astray.
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng

I know that we can't put our trust in man. Too many people of high standing in the church have apostatized. But at the same time, we've been promised that we can trust the majority of the 12.

In my limited understanding either the church was true and is true (restored and lead by Christ), or it was never true to begin with. I can't comprehend a middle ground. I am curious to know more about the views of people who fit into the option #2 category. How do you reconcile this argument?

[Serragon]

Thanks to everyone that participated in the poll. I am surprised by the results thus far. From what I've seen on this forum I was expecting to see my votes for options 2, 3, and 4, but it is also interesting that in an LDS forum less than 60% of the voters believe that Christ's church was restored & the 15 are prophets as they claim to be. I think that the "Other" votes probably fit into one of the 2, 3, or 4 categories to some degree.

I am not looking for a debate, but better understanding. There are at least a half dozen accounts of people saying that the church will never fall into apostasy and that the majority of the 12 will never lead the church astray.
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng

I know that we can't put our trust in man. Too many people of high standing in the church have apostatized. But at the same time, we've been promised that we can trust the majority of the 12.

In my limited understanding either the church was true and is true (restored and lead by Christ), or it was never true to begin with. I can't comprehend a middle ground. I am curious to know more about the views of people who fit into the option #2 category. How do you reconcile this argument?

The purity (truth) of the Church at its founding is no guarantee of its purity later.

We recognize that the Church established by Moses was true, but we do not recognize the purity of it during Christ's life.
We recognize that the church established by Peter was true, but we do not recognize the purity of Catholicism.

In addition, the majority of the 12 have not always endorsed the good. Some examples:

We now know that the I'm a Mormon program was offensive to God, yet endorsed by all of the apostles and first presidency.
We now know that blacks being unable to obtain the priesthood was never a doctrine of God, yet was endorsed and taught as doctrine by over a century of apostles.
The majority of the apostles did not support Joseph Smith during the Kirtland Bank Crisis and wished to remove him as prophet.

So is the Church "true"? In the sense that it is still ordained and supported by God, yes. Is it pure as it should be? No. Are the apostles and first presidency prophets? I believe them to be acceptable to God and see no reason why they should not be prophets. But like any of us in any office or calling in the Gospel, whether they actually have the faith to be prophets in the mold of Joseph or Moses is up to them. I fully sustain them in their calling, but by their fruits we should judge them.

[Col. Flagg]

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

How do you know if someone is truly serving God?
Isn’t talk cheap - “faith without works dead”?
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some fancy malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

These illustrations are an indictment.

[Niyr]

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

How do you know if someone is truly serving God?
Isn’t talk cheap - “faith without works dead”?
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some fancy malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

These illustrations are an indictment.

Not really. Many of those countries confiscate food and other goods that are donated.

[tdj]

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

How do you know if someone is truly serving God?
Isn’t talk cheap - “faith without works dead”?
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some fancy malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

Wow, that picture isn't something we are used to seeing in this country for sure. and many others as a matter of fact. I wasn't really sure how to answer the poll question, so I just pushed the "other" key. None of the other options really conveyed what I felt. I believe that these men can and are used by God for his purpose. And I have no reason really to doubt that they are sincere workers for God and his plan for the church.

But I've been all over Christendom in my adult life searching for a church to call home. This one is it for me. How real or how Godlike the top leaders are is really irelevent as far as I'm concerned. The reason I decided to join is not because I heard members and authorities say that this was the one true church and the one restored to the Earth. Because frankly, I've heard that time and time again from other churches I tried out. Pentecostals swear they are the one, Catholics just KNOW it's them, Baptists are the same way although they will make concession that a non baptist can still go to heaven as long as they trust in Jesus as their personal lord and Savior.

As far as the picture of the elders opening up a mall, and the picture of the starving children goes. Jesus said it himself when the woman used costly oil to wipe his feet instead of giving it to the poor and needy, that the poor will always be with you but this woman is honoring me, so leave her alone. I'm paraphrasing of course. How does building a mall honor the Lord? Honestly, no idea. None. The temples are a different story.

All I KNOW is that i will answer for not serving others. If I run across two children like that and do not try to help, then I'll have to answer for that and not the prophet or apostles. If THEY meet someone like that on the street and just walk away, then prophet/apostle or not they will also be held accountable.

Just BE the kind of person you think the prophet and apostles should be.

[tdj]

In essence, I understand "true" to refer to priesthood authority, and "living" to mean continuing revelation to and direction through the Lord's servants.

How do you know if someone is truly serving God?
Isn’t talk cheap - “faith without works dead”?
By their fruits ye shall know them.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some fancy malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving.

Grand ribon-cutting opening by for another mall built using the name of Jesus Christ...






Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...

Wow, that picture isn't something we are used to seeing in this country for sure. and many others as a matter of fact. I wasn't really sure how to answer the poll question, so I just pushed the "other" key. None of the other options really conveyed what I felt. I believe that these men can and are used by God for his purpose. And I have no reason really to doubt that they are sincere workers for God and his plan for the church.

But I've been all over Christendom in my adult life searching for a church to call home. This one is it for me. How real or how Godlike the top leaders are is really irelevent as far as I'm concerned. The reason I decided to join is not because I heard members and authorities say that this was the one true church and the one restored to the Earth. Because frankly, I've heard that time and time again from other churches I tried out. Pentecostals swear they are the one, Catholics just KNOW it's them, Baptists are the same way although they will make concession that a non baptist can still go to heaven as long as they trust in Jesus as their personal lord and Savior.

As far as the picture of the elders opening up a mall, and the picture of the starving children goes. Jesus said it himself when the woman used costly oil to wipe his feet instead of giving it to the poor and needy, that the poor will always be with you but this woman is honoring me, so leave her alone. I'm paraphrasing of course. How does building a mall honor the Lord? Honestly, I have no idea. None. The temples are a different story.

All I KNOW is that i will answer for not serving others. If I run across two children like that and do not try to help, then I'll have to answer for that and not the prophet or apostles. If THEY meet someone like that on the street and just walk away, then prophet/apostle or not they will also be held accountable.

Just BE the kind of person you think the prophet and apostles should be.

[I AM]

can you even open your mind just a little bit for a moment and imagine this.

That something was pure and true, and then, as most all things do,
became polluted and corrupt.

isn't this, what has happened in the past, and has happened to us as well.

The problem is with members like you, is you're so focused on the
part of the book where you play the star, that your pride and arrogance blinds you
to WHOLE STORY of what happens to you (the church) ,and want the end of the story
to be like you want it to be, and NOT how it really is.
You don't read the whole book - our scriptures, to find out the whole story and why.

WHY do we even have the Book of Mormon - A book that is the foundation of our religion.
a record of people who God blessed
and gave some light to - the gospel of Jesus Christ; and they prospered,
but then became proud and fell into apostasy and lost the light they where given.

We've been given their book - "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" and the fulness
of the gospel - this "book of warning" so not to make the same mistakes
they did. But we have made the same mistakes, and have become proud, as they did,
and have fallen into apostasy, just as they did. The scriptures foretell this.
The scriptures tried to warn us, but we did not, and will not heed their words;
so now we will pay the consequences, just as they did.
IT'S ALL IN THE SCRIPTURES, but members, because of their pride, don't want
to even see it, let alone believe it.

[I AM]

we've accepted the blessings - the restored gospel,
but have we considered the warnings ? No - we have not !

"If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon, should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles” that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? "


Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy, made the following observation:

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

"Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch,
“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments.
This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . .

The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred, because the only thing which will cause the destruction of His Church is the wickedness of its members."

"Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. For example in Chapter 2 herein, we noted the Lord’s prophecy that only one half of that small group he calls “virgins” will avoid being deceived and destroyed. Let us consider other scriptures which discuss this problem."

PROPHECIES REGARDING APOSTASY IN THESE LATTER DAYS

The Book of Mormon contains many predictions of a falling away among the “Gentiles” in the latter days. While the non-Jewish, non-Lamanite members of Christ’s Church may not call themselves Gentiles, the Book of Mormon prophets did. This is clearly shown by the title page of the Nephite scripture which states in the following passage that this book will come forth “by way of the Gentile:”

Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—… (See also D&C 20:9)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them,
the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

Some of the predictions clearly refer to members of Christ’s Church. Consider, for example, the following statement which is found among Nephi’s comments regarding latter-day conditions:

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

Even one who considers himself a “humble follower of Christ” is here warned that he will err “in many instances” because he is “taught by the precepts of men.”

Christ levelled His own charge that iniquity would prevail among Gentile members of His Church in the last days in these words:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations… (3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent, He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)


There are two other instances of record wherein the Lord told the Nephites that unless the Gentiles repented, they would be trodden down and torn in pieces. (3 Nephi 20:16, 21:12-14) Mormon, who had witnessed the Lamanites exterminate his own people, used almost the same words as did Christ in the quotations referred to above, in predicting the destruction of the unrepentant Gentiles by a remnant of the house of Jacob:

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver. (Mormon 5:22, 24)

Then we have the following words of Moroni which state that the Gentiles would become so wicked that unless they repented they would be destroyed:

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. (Ether 2:11)

It should be emphasized that the above quoted statements are not merely warnings against iniquity but they are prophecies also.
In the clearest of language, they predict that the Gentiles will become so wicked that unless repentance occurs we will be destroyed. Or, as the last scripture quoted states it, our iniquities will become so great that if we “continue” in them, we will be swept off as were our predecessors."

[Primary Outcast]

Thanks for clarifying this paradigm to me. It makes sense. I don't agree with it for several reasons, but I can see where you are coming from, and I can tell that neither of us will change our views which is why I don't think its fruitful to debate the issue. I appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. And of course we are all looking in a mirror dimly...