LDS Freedom Forum

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 12th, 2019, 11:10 am

Original_Intent wrote: ↑January 12th, 2019, 9:47 am

Juliet wrote: ↑January 11th, 2019, 8:10 pm Wherever you go after this life, if you have peace in your heart, you will probably have a beautiful future. If you are tormented in heart and trying to bury and escape from inner pain in this life, it will probably be worse in the next.

Not necessarily true. There are plenty of evil people who are at peace in their hearts

Not necessarily true either!
How do we know this to be the case?
Wickedness never was happiness! this is an eternal law and truth, how can these evil people have peace in their hearts? If you are an evil person doing evil deeds there are consequences you forfeit your right to have any kind of peace!

Denial allows some who do evil to feel superficial peace. Some say “e-vil” means “energy veil” - ignoring the consequences of their actions. We all have some evil - nobody’s perfect and we all regularly screw up. “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” However, as Scott Peck wrote, real evil is the persistent attempt to shift blame and make others pay. Eventually, such debt will have to be paid. Sometimes it’s in this life - but maybe afterwards.

It’s said that after this life, unresolved issues will be resolved. To those who didn’t try to resolve them in this life and who maybe even resisted (like denial, shifting blame), it feels like demons ripping things off them. To those who tried to resolve issues in life, it feels like angels helping them with whatever they couldn’t do on their own. Same law or process, but vastly different interpretations and experiences, depending on how prepared. This life is the time to repent. As JS taught, (paraphrasing:) hell is self-made.

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 5:33 pm I wouldn't class myself as great and I'm only trying to be good!

In the pre-mortal life, when it came time to act, when all was on the line, you chose Jesus Christ and fought on the side of Jesus Christ. That's pretty great...and noble.

We all have character weaknesses, but, if we desire good and we are intent on bringing about the good in ourselves and in the world, we are agents of Christ, of God/Good.

-Finrock

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 5:33 pm I wouldn't class myself as great and I'm only trying to be good!

And Jesus said to the rich young ruler , -------- "Why do you call ME good when only GOD is good?"

LittleNipper wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 8:49 am

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 5:33 pm I wouldn't class myself as great and I'm only trying to be good!

And Jesus said to the rich young ruler , -------- "Why do you call ME good when only GOD is good?"

Man can have the Light of Christ within him. Man, of himself, is not good. Man, with Christ, is good.

-Finrock

Finrock wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 8:28 am

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 5:33 pm I wouldn't class myself as great and I'm only trying to be good!

In the pre-mortal life, when it came time to act, when all was on the line, you chose Jesus Christ and fought on the side of Jesus Christ. That's pretty great...and noble.

We all have character weaknesses, but, if we desire good and we are intent on bringing about the good in ourselves and in the world, we are agents of Christ, of God/Good.

-Finrock

And what makes you so certain there is a "pre-mortal" life? Do you remember it? Some religions believe in reincarnation. And there are those that say they were queens and noblemen. No one remembers being poor or a "no-body." I feel that Mormon beliefs all hing on once being birthed somewhere out in the cosmos and not simply procreated into this existence. I don't accept such considerations. They all only bring value to the sinner and nothing to GOD. He ceases being the Creator and becomes a cog in a Cosmic process. And that I feel is exactly what Satan wants everyone to believe so he can feel great about himself.

LittleNipper wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 9:01 am

Finrock wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 8:28 am

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 5:33 pm I wouldn't class myself as great and I'm only trying to be good!

In the pre-mortal life, when it came time to act, when all was on the line, you chose Jesus Christ and fought on the side of Jesus Christ. That's pretty great...and noble.

We all have character weaknesses, but, if we desire good and we are intent on bringing about the good in ourselves and in the world, we are agents of Christ, of God/Good.

-Finrock

And what makes you so certain there is a "pre-mortal" life? Do you remember it?

God told me. I don't remember it specifically.

LittleNipper wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 9:01 amSome religions believe in reincarnation. And there are those that say they were queens and noblemen. No one remembers being poor or a "no-body." I feel that Mormon beliefs all hing on once being birthed somewhere out in the cosmos and not simply procreated into this existence. I don't accept such considerations. They all only bring value to the sinner and nothing to GOD. He ceases being the Creator and becomes a cog in a Cosmic process. And that I feel is exactly what Satan wants everyone to believe so he can feel great about himself.

Cool. Thanks for sharing what you believe and your opinions.

-Finrock

LittleNipper wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 9:01 am

Finrock wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 8:28 am

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 5:33 pm I wouldn't class myself as great and I'm only trying to be good!

In the pre-mortal life, when it came time to act, when all was on the line, you chose Jesus Christ and fought on the side of Jesus Christ. That's pretty great...and noble.

We all have character weaknesses, but, if we desire good and we are intent on bringing about the good in ourselves and in the world, we are agents of Christ, of God/Good.

-Finrock

And what makes you so certain there is a "pre-mortal" life? Do you remember it? Some religions believe in reincarnation. And there are those that say they were queens and noblemen. No one remembers being poor or a "no-body." I feel that Mormon beliefs all hing on once being birthed somewhere out in the cosmos and not simply procreated into this existence. I don't accept such considerations. They all only bring value to the sinner and nothing to GOD. He ceases being the Creator and becomes a cog in a Cosmic process. And that I feel is exactly what Satan wants everyone to believe so he can feel great about himself.

As above so below...
Pre- and post-earth existence makes sense in a couple ways.

Who are we, in essence? Not our bodies, not even our brains, but our consciousnesses. And we come from God (Galatians 3:25, Romans 8:16-17) and we return to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7) the bible says. Moses had a spiritual revelation that God is consciousness - I AM THAT I AM. Christ taught, “The kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.”

Consciousness is energy and energy doesn’t zap into or out of existence but changes form. The bible confirms this: 1 Corrinthians 15:51-57

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Complete Jewish Bible
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!
52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed.
53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality.
54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin; and sin draws its power from the Torah;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah!

I really don't see anything here to indicate that any individual always existed. Yes, I do firmly feel that everyone born will continue to exist but that in no way means we've always have existed. You see my view of GOD is that HE is the Creator the Originator. Not a Creator among many. GOD created Time and Matter and Space. GOD created the the chemical makeup of the Universe. The GOD I believe in is not just a manipulator of processes and compounds that have always existed. And this is where I feel Mormonism begins diverting from Judaeo/Christianity. In the beginning GOD created SPACE and MATTER. All the controlling aspects of chemistry, mathematics , time, etc., all originate from HIS mind and with HIS power.

You don't know & it seems like you're ignoring the possibility of multi-dimensionality, too. What, are you assuming that the physical universe is all there is & we are just physical? What about the spirit within us, the spirit that continues to exist after the body dies? You're making the assumption that the spirit came into existence with the breath of life of the body, but why would that spirit continue to exist/live by itself, apart from the body it was created with? When was the spirit created? It obviously has a separate entity/existence (which I equate with consciousness) and can exist apart from & after the body dies, so why not before or even well before, etc.? You don't know. The Bible isn't clear cut on the subject. You're just adopting an interpretation that supports your "created" model. Guess what? We agree that the body was created. So what if the spirit was "born"? Arguing beliefs/interpretations is such a waste of time. We have people with spiritual confirmations of everything contradictory you can imagine, but theirs is RIGHT!

LittleNipper wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 11:04 am I really don't see anything here to indicate that any individual always existed. Yes, I do firmly feel that everyone born will continue to exist but that in no way means we've always have existed. You see my view of GOD is that HE is the Creator the Originator. Not a Creator among many.

You can be the original and still be original among many. Not saying that I understand what existence will be like after this mortal life, just saying, logically there is no issue.

GOD created Time and Matter and Space. GOD created the the chemical makeup of the Universe. The GOD I believe in is not just a manipulator of processes and compounds that have always existed. And this is where I feel Mormonism begins diverting from Judaeo/Christianity. In the beginning GOD created SPACE and MATTER. All the controlling aspects of chemistry, mathematics , time, etc., all originate from HIS mind and with HIS power.

Christianity doesn't hang on the speculation about how God created the universe. The test of a true Christian is not do they believe/accept some dogma or creed. Many people profess belief in a creed, but in their hearts they are "ravening wolves", for instance.

I don't know the details. I believe that God is the creator. Are there things that are co-eternal? I believe that there are. Are there things that God created, originated? I believe so. Did God cause this universe to come in to existence? Yes. Are there other universes? Maybe, possibly. Its not impossible.

God created, or is, the order that we see in the universe. He is all, in all.

Your particular paradigm is one perspective, but, your paradigm doesn't constitute the definitive, uncontested truth. Rationally, logically, the situation isn't as bipolar as you seem to indicate. There is room for God to be the creator, the originator, AND for there to be some things that are co-eternal, uncreated, as it were.

But, is this detail really a defining feature of a Christian, of a disciple of Jesus Christ? When God judges a man, is He going to judge him based on what creation myth/story/fantasy/speculation/interpretation he believes in or is God going to judge a man based on how well he kept the first commandments to love God and to love others?

-Finrock

Jesef wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 4:25 pm LN, you might consider expanding out of your Groupthink library and exploring NDE's from a more universal perspective. The NDE research indicates that the vast majority of them confirm that person's bias/expectations. Indian/Hindu NDE's involve characters like Vishnu or Krishna - which God/Christ/Spirit might be speaking to other cultures in their own religious language. From what I've been able to gather, Evangelical & Fundamentalist Bible Christians do not consider the possibility that God/Christ/Spirit would communicate with other cultures using different metaphors/symbols or names than what is in the Bible. But the evidence, when considered in a more fair-minded & unbiased way, is pretty overwhelming.

http://www.horizonresearch.org/near-dea ... periences/

Incidentally, LDS/Mormons have a large corpus of NDE's that support or validate LDS/Mormon views on the afterlife & the nature of God, including the Spirit World, the apparent requirement of our ordinances (for the dead) in order to progress, Heavenly Father & Mother, separate Jesus, Angels, the status of our Prophets like Joseph Smith after death. In other words, LDS/Mormons who have NDE's tend to experience what they expect/believe.

So what does that all say? Perhaps open your mind & consider there might be some truths outside your paradigm.

I'm not sure I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment. While yes, there have been recorded NDEs that mirror someone's belief system there have been a GREAT many NDE's that finally brought a person Christ. In fact, I would call this an overwhelming commonality of NDE stories out there.

Maybe look at the research & data before drawing a confirmation biased conclusion. I included a link that [edit: many, confused thousands with another case study - not sure how many multi-cultural/religious NDE comparisons were done] many cases in several studies that have been done. Of course everyone wants to believe that NDE's support their belief system.

Here's another article - there's a lot of research on this:
https://www.near-death.com/science/arti ... -ndes.html

Finrock wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 2:42 pm

LittleNipper wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 11:04 am I really don't see anything here to indicate that any individual always existed. Yes, I do firmly feel that everyone born will continue to exist but that in no way means we've always have existed. You see my view of GOD is that HE is the Creator the Originator. Not a Creator among many.

You can be the original and still be original among many. Not saying that I understand what existence will be like after this mortal life, just saying, logically there is no issue.

GOD created Time and Matter and Space. GOD created the the chemical makeup of the Universe. The GOD I believe in is not just a manipulator of processes and compounds that have always existed. And this is where I feel Mormonism begins diverting from Judaeo/Christianity. In the beginning GOD created SPACE and MATTER. All the controlling aspects of chemistry, mathematics , time, etc., all originate from HIS mind and with HIS power.

Christianity doesn't hang on the speculation about how God created the universe. The test of a true Christian is not do they believe/accept some dogma or creed. Many people profess belief in a creed, but in their hearts they are "ravening wolves", for instance.

I don't know the details. I believe that God is the creator. Are there things that are co-eternal? I believe that there are. Are there things that God created, originated? I believe so. Did God cause this universe to come in to existence? Yes. Are there other universes? Maybe, possibly. Its not impossible.

God created, or is, the order that we see in the universe. He is all, in all.

Your particular paradigm is one perspective, but, your paradigm doesn't constitute the definitive, uncontested truth. Rationally, logically, the situation isn't as bipolar as you seem to indicate. There is room for God to be the creator, the originator, AND for there to be some things that are co-eternal, uncreated, as it were.

But, is this detail really a defining feature of a Christian, of a disciple of Jesus Christ? When God judges a man, is He going to judge him based on what creation myth/story/fantasy/speculation/interpretation he believes in or is God going to judge a man based on how well he kept the first commandments to love God and to love others?

-Finrock

Christianity hinges on the fundamental doctrine that GOD is the only such entity of His kind that ever existed, the ALMIGHTY, the ABSOLUTE GOD is the great I AM --- meaning all others are nonexistent. The Tri-unity of GOD is a integral part of GOD's nature for there to be but one GOD, and yet for Christ to refer to himself as the I AM. This would be a New Testament revealed understanding of the nature of GOD and the best understanding for the Godhead.

Phantom wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 4:10 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 4:25 pm LN, you might consider expanding out of your Groupthink library and exploring NDE's from a more universal perspective. The NDE research indicates that the vast majority of them confirm that person's bias/expectations. Indian/Hindu NDE's involve characters like Vishnu or Krishna - which God/Christ/Spirit might be speaking to other cultures in their own religious language. From what I've been able to gather, Evangelical & Fundamentalist Bible Christians do not consider the possibility that God/Christ/Spirit would communicate with other cultures using different metaphors/symbols or names than what is in the Bible. But the evidence, when considered in a more fair-minded & unbiased way, is pretty overwhelming.

http://www.horizonresearch.org/near-dea ... periences/

Incidentally, LDS/Mormons have a large corpus of NDE's that support or validate LDS/Mormon views on the afterlife & the nature of God, including the Spirit World, the apparent requirement of our ordinances (for the dead) in order to progress, Heavenly Father & Mother, separate Jesus, Angels, the status of our Prophets like Joseph Smith after death. In other words, LDS/Mormons who have NDE's tend to experience what they expect/believe.

So what does that all say? Perhaps open your mind & consider there might be some truths outside your paradigm.

I'm not sure I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment. While yes, there have been recorded NDEs that mirror someone's belief system there have been a GREAT many NDE's that finally brought a person Christ. In fact, I would call this an overwhelming commonality of NDE stories out there.

I believe that God created multiple religions, races and cultures for good reasons. For many, acknowledging validity in other paths to God, is a chasm they are unable to cross. But Christ did and asked us to follow him.

Spoiler

Most members think they have “arrived” when they are basically at stage 3 and Christ is at stage 6 of Fowler's stages of faith...

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑January 11th, 2019, 11:11 pm Chess with my dad....

Missing from this conversation is the nearly universal presence of FAMILY in NDE's. The bias many mention of NDE's reflecting their learned faith is real enough...but more real and I think more important is the overwhelming presence of family connections in NDEs.

Phantom wrote: ↑February 4th, 2019, 9:12 am Missing from this conversation is the nearly universal presence of FAMILY in NDE's. The bias many mention of NDE's reflecting their learned faith is real enough...but more real and I think more important is the overwhelming presence of family connections in NDEs.

Yes! This is what makes me wonder if the other side of the veil (& this side also but less so) is all about relating - ability to relate.

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 11th, 2019, 8:33 am I have a vested interest in what life is like beyond the veil as that's where my future lies. I've read the book Life Everlasting by Duane Crowther after my father died which is very insightful I'm wondering what else there is to tell me more?

The great mystery.

The only show we occasionally watch is the old series, “Highway to Heaven.” One episode involved a friend who was going through many emotions facing being diagnosed with a terminal illness. He and his friend had some good laughs about death like, “I plan on living forever. So far, so good” or “I don’t mind dying - I just don’t want to be there when it happens.”

Something so inevitable and so mysterious is often not considered. I don’t think we should dwell on death, yet, considering it could help us better make the most of this temporary life.

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 5:33 pm I wouldn't class myself as great and I'm only trying to be good!

Then what did Jesus mean when he said "ye are gods"

LittleNipper wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 9:01 am

Finrock wrote: ↑January 15th, 2019, 8:28 am

Dusty52 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2019, 5:33 pm I wouldn't class myself as great and I'm only trying to be good!

In the pre-mortal life, when it came time to act, when all was on the line, you chose Jesus Christ and fought on the side of Jesus Christ. That's pretty great...and noble.

We all have character weaknesses, but, if we desire good and we are intent on bringing about the good in ourselves and in the world, we are agents of Christ, of God/Good.

-Finrock

And what makes you so certain there is a "pre-mortal" life? Do you remember it? Some religions believe in reincarnation. And there are those that say they were queens and noblemen. No one remembers being poor or a "no-body." I feel that Mormon beliefs all hing on once being birthed somewhere out in the cosmos and not simply procreated into this existence. I don't accept such considerations. They all only bring value to the sinner and nothing to GOD. He ceases being the Creator and becomes a cog in a Cosmic process. And that I feel is exactly what Satan wants everyone to believe so he can feel great about himself.

I won't tell you why, but I will tell you that I'm certain there was a pre-mortal life. That knowledge has kept me alive at many points in my life.