LDS Freedom Forum

I'm definitely interested in all takes here, whether you believe there is only one mortality ever or not. I'm still overcoming a pretty severe case of the flu, so please excuse any errors or leaps in logic (more so than usual for me )

D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Interesting, what is mean here by "the other?" I would assume "the other" means the middle degree. I'm also assuming that man must enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to enter into the highest degree or into "the other" / middle degree, right? Or, does anyone have an alternative take here?

If celestial marriage is required to "the other" and "the other" is the middle degree, then why might one enter the middle degree with no eternal increase? Hrm ....

We know the least degree of Celestial Glory is the domain of unwed angels:

D&C 132:16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

OK, so whether or not I am interpreting "the other" correctly, we at least know only the highest degree is where the eternal increase takes place.

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

This is also interesting, given the fact that the lesser two degrees of celestial glory seem to be a place of confinement at least as far as increase is concerned. So, what's the point of receiving a white stone to learn about the "higher order of kingdoms" (which is an interesting way to phrase it if there are only two, which is technically plural?)

I'm more interested in an open discussion, but FWIW here's a few thoughts of me own.

Of the eight promises of overcoming in revelation, the first aligns to salvation from physical death (faith), the second from spiritual death (repentance.) The third is the promise that aligns to obedience, imho. Obey, endure to the end, and you will be exalted where you will receive a white stone to learn about the higher kingdoms (i.e. all the next steps.)


1. Revelation 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
2. Revelation 2:11 He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
3. Revelation 2:17 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
4. Revelation 2:26-28 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms; And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
5. Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6. Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
7. Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
8. Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Think of the second and third signs in the temple - a stone seems to "fit" into both of those signs. I believe the four signs / tokens in the temple align to the 4th,5th,6th, and 7th promises above. So, you are promised a stone upon overcoming the third, and at the fourth you are learning by it ... with exactness. Then you are exercising power ... with exactness. See what I mean?

What is this topic about again? Ah yes. The three degrees of celestial glory. What's the middle degree?

Alaris wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 4:52 pm -snip-

Well, this can be determined through process of elimination and reverse engineering.

We know that the requirements to enter the CK are as follows:

1. Must have completely received the Testimony of Jesus Christ and valiantly maintain it.
2. Must have been Baptized and Received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Must have strived to live in righteousness in life, and sought to keep the commandments of God. (Confirmed)
4. Must have been completely covered by and been made perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. (Practically Confirmed)
5. Must desire to dwell in the presence of Heavenly Father and obtain at least the lowest degree of Celestial Glory. (Strongly Implied)

Therefore, we can assume that the basic requirements for the CK are equivalent to the lowest degree of CK Glory.

Now, we know what the requirements for Exaltation in the Highest Degree are as follows:

1. Must meet the Requirements to Enter the CK, as well as the 2nd Degree of the CK (what we are trying to solve for).
2. Must have been sealed for time and all eternity to a spouse of the opposite sex. The husband needs to have received the Melchizedek Priesthood at some point during his life. Exaltation is a team effort.
3. Must have kept/upheld the sealing covenant to the best of your ability, and have the ordinance confirmed and upheld by the Holy Spirit (Confirmed in Scripture). Also must have kept/upheld all other covenants made prior as part of Saving or Exalting Ordinances to the best of your ability, and have these ordinances confirmed and upheld by the Holy Spirit (Implied, but not outright stated in the scriptures as far as I know, save it be that God requires Obedience in all things). Note: This set of requirements could easily be considered fulfilled by the Second Anointing (if performed directly by or accepted/upheld by the Holy Ghost).
4. Must desire to be Exalted and/or Have a Celestial Family, and recieve the highest degree of Celestial Glory. (Strongly Implied)

So from here, we can guess as to what the requirements for the middle kingdom are by looking at what the requirements to be sealed in the Temple are. The Requirements for being sealed are:

1. Must be Baptized and Confirmed a member of the CoJCoLDS. (Baptism and Confirmation)
2. Must have a current Temple Recommend and be worthy to Enter the Temple (IE, you are striving to keep the commandments of God, repent when you need to, and keep the Covenants you have made/will make).
3. If male, must have received the Melchizedek Priesthood. This includes taking upon themselves the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood. (Priesthood Requirement)
4. Must have gone through the Initiatory Ordinance and then received their Endowments.

So then, you'd notice that the requirements for sealing line up rather nicely with the requirements for Exaltation as well as entering into the CK. Also notice that the lowest and highest degree of the CK seems to correlate with a set of covenants/ordinances: Baptism/Confirmation for the lowest degree, and Celestial Marriage for the Highest degree. Therefore, we can use process of elimination to determine what the rough requirements for the 2nd degree of the CK is.

Thus, the logical requirements for the 2nd Degree of the CK should be something similar to this:

1. Must have met the requirements to enter the CK.
2. If male, must have received the Melchizedek Priesthood. This includes taking upon themselves the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood. (Confirmed)
3. Must have gone through the Initiatory Ordinance and then received their Endowments. (Implied)
4. Must have kept/upheld all covenants made up to this point to the best of your ability, and have these ordinances confirmed and upheld by the Holy Spirit (Implied, but not outright stated in the scriptures as far as I know, save it be that God requires Obedience in all things).
5. Must desire to reside in at least the 2nd degree of Celestial Glory. (Strongly Implied)

So much text for a simple answer. You had it as #4:

Must have been completely covered by and been made perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

The Celestial Kingdom completely hinges on this and everything else is but an appendage to it.

We don't know anything about the 2nd degree of the Celestial Kingdom because it hasn't been revealed. So why bother guessing?

I am pretty sure they are the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

Rand wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 7:31 pm I am pretty sure they are the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

Again, inside the celestial kingdom? Woh. Mind blown! It's like a puzzle inside an enigma wrapped by an inception.

Rand wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 7:31 pm I am pretty sure they are the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

And I'm pretty sure they aren't.
"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
And if he does not, he cannot obtain it." D&C 131:1-3

Because of this scripture people infer that there are multiple degrees to the terrestrial and telestial realms. But I am not aware that we have been given details on this or on what the second and third heavens of celestial glory are.

Which degree does the Holy of Holies represent?

On my mission, an Elder Carlson guessed they correspond with Baptised, Endowed, Sealed.

As for myself, I don't know yet.

"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; . . . . He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase" (D&C 131:1-4).

The phrase "the other" seems to imply "heavens or degrees," one of the other heavens or degrees of the celestial glory, not a single heaven or degree.

One interpretation is that "celestial glory" means the Celestial kingdom, hence three degrees in the highest glory of the Celestial kingdom and (perhaps only) one degree in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms. But another interpretation is that "celestial glory" means the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms collectively, not the Celestial kingdom specifically but heaven in general.

Now, from Wilford Woodruff's Book of Revelations is this from the Prophet Joseph in 1841:
"[there] were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory."

Despite not knowing the organization of the "many mansions," this account would support the interpretation that there are three degrees (at least?) in the Celestial kingdom.

abijah wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 10:02 pm On my mission, an Elder Carlson guessed they correspond with Baptised, Endowed, Sealed.

As for myself, I don't know yet.

First, I will say that I believe that if the three degrees of Celestial glory had such a delineation, they would have been revealed already. I believe the truth of the three degrees has been kept hidden along with other mysteries such as the fullness of the record of John. There's a meat element to this mystery imho. I hope to have time to chime in later with additional thoughts. Thanks for the comment!

ParticleMan wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 9:30 am "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; . . . . He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase" (D&C 131:1-4).

The phrase "the other" seems to imply "heavens or degrees," one of the other heavens or degrees of the celestial glory, not a single heaven or degree.

One interpretation is that "celestial glory" means the Celestial kingdom, hence three degrees in the highest glory of the Celestial kingdom and (perhaps only) one degree in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms. But another interpretation is that "celestial glory" means the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms collectively, not the Celestial kingdom specifically but heaven in general.

Now, from Wilford Woodruff's Book of Revelations is this from the Prophet Joseph in 1841:
"[there] were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory."

Despite not knowing the organization of the "many mansions," this account would support the interpretation that there are three degrees (at least?) in the Celestial kingdom.

There are several apocryphal sources that refer to seven heavens. If this is true, and there are 12 including the abode of the devils, then there would be 5 that are not classified as "heavens."

Rand wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 7:31 pm I am pretty sure they are the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

Are you saying that it is a misunderstanding that there are three sub-degrees in CK and that Joseph referred to Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial with the three heavens or degrees in the celestial (i.e., heavenly) glory?

If that is the case, then you are not the only one believing that. It is a possibility, especially considering that the three sub-degrees of CK weren't really preached in the early days of the church.

There are some blog posts about this in bycommonconsent.org:
Three sub-degrees in the Celestial Kingdom?
Is the Celestial Kingdom Divided into Three Subdegrees?

Alaris wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 4:52 pm I'm also assuming that man must enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to enter into the highest degree or into "the other" / middle degree, right?

I don't get this. Verse 2 clearly states that marriage is required for the highest degree. According to verse 4, one can enter the other without marriage.

inho wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 10:34 am

Rand wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 7:31 pm I am pretty sure they are the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

Are you saying that it is a misunderstanding that there are three sub-degrees in CK and that Joseph referred to Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial with the three heavens or degrees in the celestial (i.e., heavenly) glory?

If that is the case, then you are not the only one believing that. It is a possibility, especially considering that the three sub-degrees of CK weren't really preached in the early days of the church.

There are some blog posts about this in bycommonconsent.org:
Three sub-degrees in the Celestial Kingdom?
Is the Celestial Kingdom Divided into Three Subdegrees?

Not everything in our Canon is created equal. This section is not a dictation, writing, or quotation from Joseph. It is a scribe's attempt to summarize a longer conversation from memory, and simply does not bear the level of close reading and scrutiny of the word choice that one would apply had Joseph actually written or dictated it.

inho wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 10:38 am

Alaris wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 4:52 pm I'm also assuming that man must enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to enter into the highest degree or into "the other" / middle degree, right?

I don't get this. Verse 2 clearly states that marriage is required for the highest degree. According to verse 4, one can enter the other without marriage.

OK but no requirements are set for the middle degree. Just because marriage is required for the highest does not say marriage is or isn't required for the middle degree.

What "the other" signifies is not clear.

inho wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 10:34 am There are some blog posts about this in bycommonconsent.org:
Three sub-degrees in the Celestial Kingdom?
Is the Celestial Kingdom Divided into Three Subdegrees?

From the first link:

The first time that the words belonging to Section 131 were ever published for the general church membership was in 1856 in the Deseret News; they did not get added to the Doctrine and Covenants until 1876.

I have been able to find nothing in print for the next 46 years about there being three divisions or sub-degrees within the Celestial Kingdom. The next landmark that appears is in 1919. In that year there is published what is to be the first full length commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants. The commentary is ostensibly the work of Hyrum M. Smith, an Apostle and son of Joseph F. Smith — but he had little to do with the actual writing. The bulk of the work is carried out by Janne M. Sjodahl and a committee consisting of Orson F. Whitney, Joseph Fielding Smith, John E. Cottam, George F. Richards and Junius F. Wells.

When one looks at the commentary for Section 131 there is nothing mentioned about three sub-degrees. (see Doctrine and Covenants commentary, 1919.) ...

A major shift in the interpretation of the first verse of Section 131 comes a scant three years later. Elder Melvin J. Ballard gave a talk at the Ogden tabernacle on September 22, 1922. An early pamphlet carries the title “Three degrees of Glory; a discourse delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, September 22, 1922.” My particular copy, printed in 1926 is 48 pages long and it is a very interesting talk about the three degrees of glory as described in Section 76. Elder Ballard talks about a variety of subjects and tries to answer many questions on who goes where, how our choices and actions in this life affect our final destination and his views on wayward children in this life, among many other topics. The critical part to my thesis comes on page 10 of the 1926 printing. There appears this paragraph:

“Now, I wish to say to you that the only possible candidates to become what God is are those who attain Celestial Glory, and those who fail in that will never, worlds without end, be possible candidates to become what God is. Then I wish to say to you that there are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom and only those who attain the highest degree of Celestial Glory will be candidates to become what God is, and graduate.”

This is the first time I can find any such teaching, in print form, of a three sub-degree division of the Celestial Kingdom.

In all fairness, let me also quote LaJean Carruth's comments on the same linked blog post:

I am a professional transcriber of 19th century shorthand documents at the Church History Library. In a sermon delivered by Orson Pratt on May 30, 1875, which I have transcribed from David Evans’ shorthand record, Pratt taught that there are different degrees of glory within the celestial kingdom. He also talked about the other degrees of glory which were prepared for those who could not abide a celestial glory.

Many of my transcriptions are available in the Church History Library public catalog, in collection CR 100 912, with more being added to the second collection “Addresses and Sermons,” all the time. Here is the link: https://eadview.lds.org/findingaid/002360621/ These are my original transcripts as I typed them. As for the Orson Pratt sermon I mentioned, it will, I assume, appear there in a while, but I have to proofread it first – 52 pages of David Evans’ shorthand – and then send it through the process. I like Orson Pratt and have transcribed almost everything I can find by him.

inho wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:07 am

inho wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 10:34 am There are some blog posts about this in bycommonconsent.org:
Three sub-degrees in the Celestial Kingdom?
Is the Celestial Kingdom Divided into Three Subdegrees?

From the first link:

The first time that the words belonging to Section 131 were ever published for the general church membership was in 1856 in the Deseret News; they did not get added to the Doctrine and Covenants until 1876.

I have been able to find nothing in print for the next 46 years about there being three divisions or sub-degrees within the Celestial Kingdom. The next landmark that appears is in 1919. In that year there is published what is to be the first full length commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants. The commentary is ostensibly the work of Hyrum M. Smith, an Apostle and son of Joseph F. Smith — but he had little to do with the actual writing. The bulk of the work is carried out by Janne M. Sjodahl and a committee consisting of Orson F. Whitney, Joseph Fielding Smith, John E. Cottam, George F. Richards and Junius F. Wells.

When one looks at the commentary for Section 131 there is nothing mentioned about three sub-degrees. (see Doctrine and Covenants commentary, 1919.) ...

A major shift in the interpretation of the first verse of Section 131 comes a scant three years later. Elder Melvin J. Ballard gave a talk at the Ogden tabernacle on September 22, 1922. An early pamphlet carries the title “Three degrees of Glory; a discourse delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, September 22, 1922.” My particular copy, printed in 1926 is 48 pages long and it is a very interesting talk about the three degrees of glory as described in Section 76. Elder Ballard talks about a variety of subjects and tries to answer many questions on who goes where, how our choices and actions in this life affect our final destination and his views on wayward children in this life, among many other topics. The critical part to my thesis comes on page 10 of the 1926 printing. There appears this paragraph:

“Now, I wish to say to you that the only possible candidates to become what God is are those who attain Celestial Glory, and those who fail in that will never, worlds without end, be possible candidates to become what God is. Then I wish to say to you that there are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom and only those who attain the highest degree of Celestial Glory will be candidates to become what God is, and graduate.”

This is the first time I can find any such teaching, in print form, of a three sub-degree division of the Celestial Kingdom.

The problem with this blog is the author fails to acknowledge other scriptures that indicate there are degrees of separation within the Celestial Kingdom:

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Alaris wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:49 am
The problem with this blog is the author fails to acknowledge other scriptures that indicate there are degrees of separation within the Celestial Kingdom:

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

If you are standing in the celestial kingdom (singular), and you are given a white stone so you can learn about a "higher order of kingdoms", then the "kingdoms" you are to learn about are not the celestial kingdom. They are of a "higher order" than "the celestial kingdom".

You're trying to make the text say something it doesn't, then condemning the blog's author for not making the same mistake.

stillwater wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:59 am

Alaris wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:49 am
The problem with this blog is the author fails to acknowledge other scriptures that indicate there are degrees of separation within the Celestial Kingdom:

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

If you are standing in the celestial kingdom (singular), and you are given a white stone so you can learn about a "higher order of kingdoms", then the "kingdoms" you are to learn about are not the celestial kingdom. They are of a "higher order" than "the celestial kingdom".

Unless there really are degrees of separation within the Celestial Kingdom, which absolutely there are imho. If they do exist, you can certainly learn about the "higher order of kingdoms" within the Celestial Kingdom from within the Celestial Kingdom. Could there be kingdoms above and beyond the Celestial? Sure. However, that interpretation certainly isn't the only interpretation here.

stillwater wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:59 am You're trying to make the text say something it doesn't, then condemning the blog's author for not making the same mistake.

lol, take it down a notch. Nobody is condemning anyone here. This is a friendly discussion, and obviously there is no pointed revelation on what the three degrees are. There are two scriptures that indicate there are degrees within the Celestial Kingdom. Not only do they both have to be explained away for there not to be, we have to account for the many prophets who have come and went who allowed this scripture to persist:

D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Alaris wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 12:12 pm

stillwater wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:59 am

Alaris wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:49 am
The problem with this blog is the author fails to acknowledge other scriptures that indicate there are degrees of separation within the Celestial Kingdom:

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

If you are standing in the celestial kingdom (singular), and you are given a white stone so you can learn about a "higher order of kingdoms", then the "kingdoms" you are to learn about are not the celestial kingdom. They are of a "higher order" than "the celestial kingdom".

Unless there really are degrees of separation within the Celestial Kingdom, which absolutely there are imho. If they do exist, you can certainly learn about the "higher order of kingdoms" within the Celestial Kingdom from within the Celestial Kingdom. Could there be kingdoms above and beyond the Celestial? Sure. However, that interpretation certainly isn't the only interpretation here.

stillwater wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:59 am You're trying to make the text say something it doesn't, then condemning the blog's author for not making the same mistake.

lol, take it down a notch. Nobody is condemning anyone here. This is a friendly discussion, and obviously there is no pointed revelation on what the three degrees are. There are two scriptures that indicate there are degrees within the Celestial Kingdom. Not only do they both have to be explained away for there not to be, we have to account for the many prophets who have come and went who allowed this scripture to persist:

D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

I labeled your criticism of the blogger as "condemnation". You can read that word however you want. I guess you chose to read it in a way that you disagree with. I meant it just as a straightforward description of your dismissal of the author's thesis, not a consignment of him to eternal damnation or something.

Neither of those two "scriptures" (read: secondhand summaries written by scribes never reviewed by Joseph or intended for canonization) demands a reading of multiple glories within the Celestial kingdom. They have both been abundantly and clearly "explained away" in this thread.

And we are no more obligated to account for multiple church leaders' acceptance of this tradition than we are obligated to explain the many other non-scriptural traditions that have been accepted as orthodoxy and perpetuated by leaders. A prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such. The rest of the time he is as liable as anyone else to believe and pass on traditions of his upbringing. Observe the cataclysmic rejection of Joseph Smith's Elijah doctrine and its wholesale replacement by an entirely different doctrine. Why hasn't any leader since Brigham Young and Orson Pratt (who formulated the replacement doctrine) corrected the error? Why does the replacement doctrine find place in our manuals and discourse while Joseph's doctrines remain unread and unbelieved? Was Joseph wrong? The answer is: Because that's how people and institutions work. They are fallible. Their acceptance of a doctrine doesn't make it true, nor does their opposition to a doctrine make it false.

stillwater wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 12:23 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 12:12 pm

stillwater wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:59 am

Alaris wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:49 am
The problem with this blog is the author fails to acknowledge other scriptures that indicate there are degrees of separation within the Celestial Kingdom:

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

If you are standing in the celestial kingdom (singular), and you are given a white stone so you can learn about a "higher order of kingdoms", then the "kingdoms" you are to learn about are not the celestial kingdom. They are of a "higher order" than "the celestial kingdom".

Unless there really are degrees of separation within the Celestial Kingdom, which absolutely there are imho. If they do exist, you can certainly learn about the "higher order of kingdoms" within the Celestial Kingdom from within the Celestial Kingdom. Could there be kingdoms above and beyond the Celestial? Sure. However, that interpretation certainly isn't the only interpretation here.

stillwater wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 11:59 am You're trying to make the text say something it doesn't, then condemning the blog's author for not making the same mistake.

lol, take it down a notch. Nobody is condemning anyone here. This is a friendly discussion, and obviously there is no pointed revelation on what the three degrees are. There are two scriptures that indicate there are degrees within the Celestial Kingdom. Not only do they both have to be explained away for there not to be, we have to account for the many prophets who have come and went who allowed this scripture to persist:

D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

I labeled your criticism of the blogger as "condemnation". You can read that word however you want. I guess you chose to read it in a way that you disagree with. I meant it just as a straightforward description of your dismissal of the author's thesis, not a consignment of him to eternal damnation or something.

Neither of those two "scriptures" (read: secondhand summaries written by scribes never reviewed by Joseph or intended for canonization) demands a reading of multiple glories within the Celestial kingdom. They have both been abundantly and clearly "explained away" in this thread.

And we are no more obligated to account for multiple church leaders' acceptance of this tradition than we are obligated to explain the many other non-scriptural traditions that have been accepted as orthodoxy and perpetuated by leaders. A prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such. The rest of the time he is as liable as anyone else to believe and pass on traditions of his upbringing. Observe the cataclysmic rejection of Joseph Smith's Elijah doctrine and its wholesale replacement by an entirely different doctrine. Why hasn't any leader since Brigham Young and Orson Pratt (who formulated the replacement doctrine) corrected the error? Why does the replacement doctrine find place in our manuals and discourse while Joseph's doctrines remain unread and unbelieved? Was Joseph wrong? The answer is: Because that's how people and institutions work. They are fallible. Their acceptance of a doctrine doesn't make it true, nor does their opposition to a doctrine make it false.

Thanks for chiming in with your opinion. I do agree there is some nuance the Doctrine in Covenants. As for degrees within the Celestial Kingdom, whether you want to say there are degrees above the CK or degrees within in the CK, D&C 130 is pretty clear that once you are in the CK, there is additional learning pertaining to higher orders. I'll chime in with my thoughts on other evidences of what this means and my personal take later. Thanks again.

Alaris wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 9:26 pm

Rand wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 7:31 pm I am pretty sure they are the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

Again, inside the celestial kingdom? Woh. Mind blown! It's like a puzzle inside an enigma wrapped by an inception.

Exactly!

brianj wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 9:46 pm

Rand wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 7:31 pm I am pretty sure they are the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

And I'm pretty sure they aren't.
"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
And if he does not, he cannot obtain it." D&C 131:1-3

Because of this scripture people infer that there are multiple degrees to the terrestrial and telestial realms. But I am not aware that we have been given details on this or on what the second and third heavens of celestial glory are.

How many degrees does the BoM talk about in the Celestial Kingdom? Only one. Why? It contains the fulness of the Gospel, it is full of Temple references and knowledge. IT is because it speaks of exaltation only, or the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom.
In the end, every knee will bend and every tongue confess Jesus is the Christ, and they will all have had their baptism done, so they will all be able to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

inho wrote: ↑November 27th, 2018, 10:34 am

Rand wrote: ↑November 26th, 2018, 7:31 pm I am pretty sure they are the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

Are you saying that it is a misunderstanding that there are three sub-degrees in CK and that Joseph referred to Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial with the three heavens or degrees in the celestial (i.e., heavenly) glory?

If that is the case, then you are not the only one believing that. It is a possibility, especially considering that the three sub-degrees of CK weren't really preached in the early days of the church.

There are some blog posts about this in bycommonconsent.org:
Three sub-degrees in the Celestial Kingdom?
Is the Celestial Kingdom Divided into Three Subdegrees?

I am not sure what you are describing, sorry. I am saying that there are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom: Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial, with the Celestial level of the Celestial Kingdom being Exaltation. I am not positive, but, it is the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise there are way to many holes and gaps that don't fit together.