Polygamy best tactic to destroy a family

[JohnnyL]

"Satan couldn't have devised a better tactic to destroy the family unit and plan of salvation than something as awful as polygamy."

Debate.

[iWriteStuff]

Not to pee in the swimming pool, but doesn't the constant debating of Polygamy make us Mormons look a little silly? It's like an obsession we can't seem to let go of. Ever. There's more threads on Polygamy than on any other subject.

Might as well argue about blood atonement, since we're not practicing that either.

[MMbelieve]

Not to pee in the swimming pool, but doesn't the constant debating of Polygamy make us Mormons look a little silly? It's like an obsession we can't seem to let go of. Ever. There's more threads on Polygamy than on any other subject.

Might as well argue about blood atonement, since we're not practicing either.

Only if we believe that blood atonement is a higher law and is coming back during the Millennium or is part of heaven.

I had never heard of blood atonement before, the church doesn't say anything about it. I'm still not sure what it really is.

[Baurak Ale]

Satan’s best ally in producing evidence of the failures of polygamy are the natural man and the natural woman in a polygamous configuration. Does this mean the institution itself is Satan’s invention and/or tool? On the contrary: evidence for the blessings and benefits of polygamy are only manifest in the most selfless and charitable of characters. Perhaps we have not read of them due to bias. Their accounts are moving and beautiful, exemplifying Christ’s attributes in every particular. Are not these they who shall inherit Celestial glory and not those who make a bad use of God’s gifts?

Should we be surprised that though many may be called to receive Celestial glory only a few are chosen? Why are we panicked by the stories coming from the masses of people who failed the test and will not be found worthy to inherit all that the Father has? This is all laid out in the revelations. It does not mean that the institution is Satan’s invention and/or tool. The natural man and the natural woman are.

[MMbelieve]

There are a couple ways that polygamy attacks families.
The threat of polygamy or the assumption men will practice it can cause a problem between husband and wife. Women may not fully engage and become one with their husband knowing that she has no real claim on him but must be sharing someday in the future. This can cause women to see men more as a tool (or soemthing) than a companion.

Another way is that wives get less time and devotion from him because he is always away away ND even if he's there everyone knows that he has a few other families as well.

Children have less of a dad than they should have. They share him as well.

Dad isn't always there at night to protect and be with his family nor in the mornings to have devotionals with the family.

Many women are heartbroken when a second wife comes along. She is often also younger. This stabs at the value and worth of women.

The jealousy that is natural and normal is unhealthy to have with your own spouse. And polygamy brings jealousy. It forces women to live in a state of dissociation to what her husband is doing when he's not with her.

An early female pioneer who lived polygamy said that there was no place for love in polygamy. We know that love is the driving force of the family unit on earth and in heaven.

Men are or could be perpetually dating which is a form of adultry.

It elevates men above women and other aspects it degrades men to being used.

[Baurak Ale]

Not to pee in the swimming pool, but doesn't the constant debating of Polygamy make us Mormons look a little silly? It's like an obsession we can't seem to let go of. Ever. There's more threads on Polygamy than on any other subject.

Might as well argue about blood atonement, since we're not practicing either.

Only if we believe that blood atonement is a higher law and is coming back during the Millennium or is part of heaven.

I had never heard of blood atonement before, the church doesn't say anything about it. I'm still not sure what it really is.

May I recommend “Blood Atonement and the Origins of Polygamy” by President Joseph F. Smith? It’s quite clear on the matter, if you couldn’t guess by the title. Warning: this was written by a prophet to inform his RLDS relations on what our doctrines really included, so if you reject his witness you by default accept that of the Community of Christ, and I may testify that they do not know the voice of the Good Shepherd.

[MMbelieve]

Satan’s best ally in producing evidence of the failures of polygamy are the natural man and the natural woman in a polygamous configuration. Does this mean the institution itself is Satan’s invention and/or tool? On the contrary: evidence for the blessings and benefits of polygamy are only manifest in the most selfless and charitable of characters. Perhaps we have not read of them due to bias. Their accounts are moving and beautiful, exemplifying Christ’s attributes in every particular. Are not these they who shall inherit Celestial glory and not those who make a bad use of God’s gifts?

Should we be surprised that though many may be called to receive Celestial glory only a few are chosen? Why are we panicked by the stories coming from the masses of people who failed the test and will not be found worthy to inherit all that the Father has? This is all laid out in the revelations. It does not mean that the institution is Satan’s invention and/or tool. The natural man and the natural woman are.

Polygamy very well may have been just a test of obedience.
I think the feel goods we get from pioneer women who spoke positively about Polygamy is the spirit they felt for being obedient to what was asked of them. The joy of accomplishing something doesn't make the something enjoyable or rewarding. The reward came through enduring and being obedient. The reward of Polygamy was likely just an individual thing.

Even those Polygamy people around today who believe it and want to live it don't really seem all that happy.

Monogamy has plenty of problems because men and women struggle to get along and have to learn, Polygamy just adds more variables to complicate things and to prevent from happening what the goal of Monogamy should produce. A couple that is completely faithful and loyal to one another and full of love and respect and admiration, having become one together.

[MMbelieve]

Not to pee in the swimming pool, but doesn't the constant debating of Polygamy make us Mormons look a little silly? It's like an obsession we can't seem to let go of. Ever. There's more threads on Polygamy than on any other subject.

Might as well argue about blood atonement, since we're not practicing either.

Only if we believe that blood atonement is a higher law and is coming back during the Millennium or is part of heaven.

I had never heard of blood atonement before, the church doesn't say anything about it. I'm still not sure what it really is.

May I recommend “Blood Atonement and the Origins of Polygamy” by President Joseph F. Smith? It’s quite clear on the matter, if you couldn’t guess by the title. Warning: this was written by a prophet to inform his RLDS relations on what our doctrines really included, so if you reject his witness you by default accept that of the Community of Christ, and I may testify that they do not know the voice of the Good Shepherd.

"However, so-called "blood atonement," by which individuals would be required to shed their own blood to pay for their sins, is not a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe in and teach the infinite and all-encompassing atonement of Jesus Christ, which makes forgiveness of sin and salvation possible for all people."

This is a portion of the church's official statement on blood atonement.

Is this what your reference is in line with?

[Davka]

I think this statement

1. Underestimates Satan. I don't think we've seen how much he is capable of
so far as destroying the family is concerned.

2. Would be more correct if it were written "Satan, tricky as he is, found an excellent opportunity in the doctrine of polygamy to twist its true nature, purpose, and practice so as to prevent perhaps millions of people from joining Christ's true church and to cause many otherwise faithful Saints to doubt their testimonies of said church, and, along the way destroyed many families who became caught up in the practice one way or another."

You guys, I used to struggle with the idea of polygamy. It's fruits have never been good, as far as the historical information we have. I had accepted that I must not have the right stuff because I could not imagine living happily as a "part" of my husband's dominions. One night I took it to the Lord, humbly, and asked him to give me more light and knowledge regarding the issue. And he did. And I was at peace, and have been since. He truly "spoke peace to my soul" regarding the issue. The experience was sacred to me, something I'd rather not share details of on this public board, but I will say the doctrine and the role it plays in the eternities is so much more than a man God having multiple women Goddesses with whom to have Spirit babies. It has a purpose. Girls, we will not be disappointed with the setup.

Weeks later, by the way, I happened to be re-reading the church's essay on polygamy and something stuck out to me that I had not noticed before but that fit perfectly with what I had come to understand...Joseph Smith married women who were already married to someone else.

Hmmmm...

Now whether or not Joseph or Brigham or others were practicing polygamy the way God intended it to be practiced on Earth is another debate, and one that doesn't matter much to me. What matters to me is 1. that I know Jesus Christ's authority is within this church and has been since 1830, regardless of how polygamy was practiced and 2. I don't need to worry about wearing a long braid and bangs out of 1986 for eternity.

[Baurak Ale]

The jealousy that is natural and normal is unhealthy to have with your own spouse. And polygamy brings jealousy. It forces women to live in a state of dissociation to what her husband is doing when he's not with her.

It would be very easy to respond point by point to your arguments, but I singled out the above for reason of wondering how you could have missed such a plain admission to telestial failings. Jealousy is “natural and normal”? Polygamy “brings jealousy”? We can not argue that the feelings a given principle brings about in its adherents is the test by which we know it is good and from God. If that was the case, the first vision would be classified as a heresy because of how it made the worldly feel. We need a more reliable judge than this.

I submit that it’s coming from the prophet of God stands as test enough that it is of God, remembering that God’s word is as a two edged sword come not to send peace (also an unreliable judge, per the first vision among other things).

[MMbelieve]

The jealousy that is natural and normal is unhealthy to have with your own spouse. And polygamy brings jealousy. It forces women to live in a state of dissociation to what her husband is doing when he's not with her.

It would be very easy to respond point by point to your arguments, but I singled out the above for reason of wondering how you could have missed such a plain admission to telestial failings. Jealousy is “natural and normal”? Polygamy “brings jealousy”? We can not argue that the feelings a given principle brings about in its adherents is the test by which we know it is good and from God. If that was the case, the first vision would be classified as a heresy because of how it made the worldly feel. We need a more reliable judge than this.

I submit that it’s coming from the prophet of God stands as test enough that it is of God, remembering that God’s word is as a two edged sword come not to send peace (also an unreliable judge, per the first vision among other things).

God refers to himself as a jealous god. You are aware of this correct?

[Baurak Ale]

The jealousy that is natural and normal is unhealthy to have with your own spouse. And polygamy brings jealousy. It forces women to live in a state of dissociation to what her husband is doing when he's not with her.

It would be very easy to respond point by point to your arguments, but I singled out the above for reason of wondering how you could have missed such a plain admission to telestial failings. Jealousy is “natural and normal”? Polygamy “brings jealousy”? We can not argue that the feelings a given principle brings about in its adherents is the test by which we know it is good and from God. If that was the case, the first vision would be classified as a heresy because of how it made the worldly feel. We need a more reliable judge than this.

I submit that it’s coming from the prophet of God stands as test enough that it is of God, remembering that God’s word is as a two edged sword come not to send peace (also an unreliable judge, per the first vision among other things).

God refers to himself as a jealous god. You are aware of this correct?

And you ought to know the difference between what he means when he uses that word to describe himself versus what is meant when you say, “polygamy brings jealousy.” You are aware of the difference, correct?

God does not look upon other gods in jealousy, covering them for what they have. No, but He is insistent that His children should worship no one but Himself. There may well be a better word to describe these two different notions.

The point still stands that measuring the effect a principle has upon natural tastes or tendencies cannot be used to determine what is right or true, especially when it relates to things of a higher and holier order than what is earthly.

I am in no way disagreeing with the premise, however, that polygamy can and does result in jealousies. It’s perhaps best known for that, if a small sample of comments on this site are any indication. But the truth of this popular sentiment has no bearing on the truth of the principle. It is a principle not be borne lightly or by the spiritually unprepared. A disciple of Christ can submit to this with no jealous reaction and find greater joy than was previously known. It is alien to us, yes I can assure you of that, but God will give us strength to live up to it if we seek it.

[Durzan]

The jealousy that is natural and normal is unhealthy to have with your own spouse. And polygamy brings jealousy. It forces women to live in a state of dissociation to what her husband is doing when he's not with her.

It would be very easy to respond point by point to your arguments, but I singled out the above for reason of wondering how you could have missed such a plain admission to telestial failings. Jealousy is “natural and normal”? Polygamy “brings jealousy”? We can not argue that the feelings a given principle brings about in its adherents is the test by which we know it is good and from God. If that was the case, the first vision would be classified as a heresy because of how it made the worldly feel. We need a more reliable judge than this.

I submit that it’s coming from the prophet of God stands as test enough that it is of God, remembering that God’s word is as a two edged sword come not to send peace (also an unreliable judge, per the first vision among other things).

God refers to himself as a jealous god. You are aware of this correct?

...Interesting that you brought that up. Here's the scripture that you are referring to. I do not think that verse means what you think it means.

3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

If you look at the verse in the LDS KJV of the Bible, you will notice the footnote b right next to the word jealous. Look down in the footnotes and find footnote 5b and you get this:

HEB qannah, “possessing sensitive and deep feelings.” Ex. 34:14; Num. 25:11; Deut. 4:24; 6:15; Josh. 24:19; Mosiah 11:22.

So, if you don't already know, the footnote referencing is presenting an alternate translation of the Hebrew word qannah, which is “possessing sensitive and deep feelings.” So what does that say? God isn't jealous, He's extremely sensitive and emotional and it hurts his feelings when we worship other Gods. Grants a totally different understanding of His nature, doesn't it?

There goes that rebuttal that I responded to.

[MMbelieve]

The jealousy that is natural and normal is unhealthy to have with your own spouse. And polygamy brings jealousy. It forces women to live in a state of dissociation to what her husband is doing when he's not with her.

It would be very easy to respond point by point to your arguments, but I singled out the above for reason of wondering how you could have missed such a plain admission to telestial failings. Jealousy is “natural and normal”? Polygamy “brings jealousy”? We can not argue that the feelings a given principle brings about in its adherents is the test by which we know it is good and from God. If that was the case, the first vision would be classified as a heresy because of how it made the worldly feel. We need a more reliable judge than this.

I submit that it’s coming from the prophet of God stands as test enough that it is of God, remembering that God’s word is as a two edged sword come not to send peace (also an unreliable judge, per the first vision among other things).

God refers to himself as a jealous god. You are aware of this correct?

And you ought to know the difference between what he means when he uses that word to describe himself versus what is meant when you say, “polygamy brings jealousy.” You are aware of the difference, correct?

God does not look upon other gods in jealousy, covering them for what they have. No, but He is insistent that His children should worship no one but Himself. There may well be a better word to describe these two different notions.

The point still stands that measuring the effect a principle has upon natural tastes or tendencies cannot be used to determine what is right or true, especially when it relates to things of a higher and holier order than what is earthly.

I am in no way disagreeing with the premise, however, that polygamy can and does result in jealousies. It’s perhaps best known for that, if a small sample of comments on this site are any indication. But the truth of this popular sentiment has no bearing on the truth of the principle. It is a principle not be borne lightly or by the spiritually unprepared. A disciple of Christ can submit to this with no jealous reaction and find greater joy than was previously known. It is alien to us, yes I can assure you of that, but God will give us strength to live up to it if we seek it.

Why is polygamy a higher law only for those more advanced spirits? Is it because the practice itself has so many obstacles and problems that only the perfect can actually do it because they are expected to not have any of the "humanness" the rest of us have?

Or is there actually something to polygamy? A reason for it? A reason that trumps the abilities of what 1 man and 1 woman can do? What is it that makes 2 or more women better than 1?

[Chip]

Satan’s best ally in producing evidence of the failures of polygamy are the natural man and the natural woman in a polygamous configuration. Does this mean the institution itself is Satan’s invention and/or tool? On the contrary: evidence for the blessings and benefits of polygamy are only manifest in the most selfless and charitable of characters. Perhaps we have not read of them due to bias. Their accounts are moving and beautiful, exemplifying Christ’s attributes in every particular. Are not these they who shall inherit Celestial glory and not those who make a bad use of God’s gifts?

Should we be surprised that though many may be called to receive Celestial glory only a few are chosen? Why are we panicked by the stories coming from the masses of people who failed the test and will not be found worthy to inherit all that the Father has? This is all laid out in the revelations. It does not mean that the institution is Satan’s invention and/or tool. The natural man and the natural woman are.

So, I gather that Joseph Smith PASSED the polygamy "test", right? I mean, he must have, because he was its initiator. He's the man that started it in the church. He's the prophet of the last dispensation.

So, passing the test looks like this:

1) Serially marrying other women behind your wife's back, to her perpetual consternation
2) Marrying other guys' wives
3) Getting other guys to do the same things
4) Lying to most everyone about what you are up to
5) Creating so much intrigue that you get yourself killed

And this was all God's doing because he wanted to test people, in contravention to scripture, new and old. Where's the charity, the truth, the kindness, or ANYTHING GOOD about this? This is the domain of MAD MEN, not Jesus Christ or Heavenly Father in the scriptures (barring D&C 132, of course, with its curious history). At what point do you just call a spade a spade?

And if this isn't screwed up enough, the church has exhibited an ongoing pattern of LYING about these matters. How much does it take for anyone to see?

[Michelle]

Multiple sides of my ancestors practiced polygamy. They stopped when the prophet said so, as far as I know.

I can see where polygamy may have a place in the eternities.

I see why it appears so abhorrent to many.

I still see a place for it in the eternities and where it may have served a noble purpose in mortality as well.

If it is not necessary in the eternities, you won't find me complaining. If it is, I will obey and I can see some benefits for women as well as men.

I think that like many things we don't understand now, perspective changes everything.

From where we stand, most of us cannot fathom how this could be a good thing.

Where we are going, so much of what we can't see here will be obvious there.

[Durzan]

Not to pee in the swimming pool, but doesn't the constant debating of Polygamy make us Mormons look a little silly? It's like an obsession we can't seem to let go of. Ever. There's more threads on Polygamy than on any other subject.

Might as well argue about blood atonement, since we're not practicing that either.

someone brought it up in another thread, and it sparked a tangental discussion. I was one of the responders. Literally every time someone mentions polygamy it always results in another discussion thread. XD

[RAB]

You have to look at the historical context:

1. Sealings had a different connotation than they do now. Many wanted simply to be sealed to Joseph so their families could be with him in the eternities.

2. Joseph was never sealed to the wife of a worthy priesthood holding male. Many sealings were for eternity only to women whose husbands knew of it and gave consent or were not members at all.

3. There is no evidence that Joseph had any relations with the women he was sealed to (no children from any of them even though he had no problems having children with Emma). DNA of those who claimed it has all been conclusively proven false. Even though 132 clearly allows for sexual relations my guess is that that is the deal Joseph struck with Emma to be obedient to the Lord’s command yet still respect her feelings.

4. Joseph denied polygamy which was synonymous with spiritual wifery...the act of having sex with other women and it not being a sin if no one knew it that was taught by Bennett and the Strikers in efforts to seduce women. Joseph saw plural marriage as something completely different.

5. William Law, who turned on Joseph, said that Joseph would not seal he and his wife since they refused to accept the doctrine of plural marriage. He was one of the dissenters who plotted against Joseph and had no interest in supporting Brigham Young. So claims that Joseph never taught nor practiced plural marriage are completely ignoring mounds of historical evidence to the contrary.

6. Joseph was persecuted and killed well before plural marriage came to light in the public. It was his allowing the destruction of the Expositor’s press that was the nail in the coffin for him.

7. Emma was not some dupe. In fact, she was actually a participant in some of the sealings, though not all. Joseph acted in accordance with 132. He sought permission, and when permission was withheld he was free to proceed as 132 says.

8. I am plural marriage agnostic. I am not so foolish to write it off as trickery, nor am I so devoted to it that I would have a problem accepting it as such if the Church came out and said so. I am willing to submit to Celestial Law, whatever it may be, though I am kind of hoping that monogamy is the highest law...seems a much simpler way to go about things. But this I know, God’s ways are not my ways, and there is so much I don’t know. But I know enough for what is relevant to my salvation right now. And plural marriage simply doesn’t matter right now, nor did it ever for a large majority of the Church. So let’s focus on what does matter...two hour church.

[Fiannan]

What is odd is that our very biology suggests polygamy is wired into the DNA of the human species. Yet people do their best to deny this, even though it is never condemned in the scriptures.

And people deny the power of social programming.

[MMbelieve]

The jealousy that is natural and normal is unhealthy to have with your own spouse. And polygamy brings jealousy. It forces women to live in a state of dissociation to what her husband is doing when he's not with her.

It would be very easy to respond point by point to your arguments, but I singled out the above for reason of wondering how you could have missed such a plain admission to telestial failings. Jealousy is “natural and normal”? Polygamy “brings jealousy”? We can not argue that the feelings a given principle brings about in its adherents is the test by which we know it is good and from God. If that was the case, the first vision would be classified as a heresy because of how it made the worldly feel. We need a more reliable judge than this.

I submit that it’s coming from the prophet of God stands as test enough that it is of God, remembering that God’s word is as a two edged sword come not to send peace (also an unreliable judge, per the first vision among other things).

God refers to himself as a jealous god. You are aware of this correct?

...Interesting that you brought that up. Here's the scripture that you are referring to. I do not think that verse means what you think it means.

3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

If you look at the verse in the LDS KJV of the Bible, you will notice the footnote b right next to the word jealous. Look down in the footnotes and find footnote 5b and you get this:

HEB qannah, “possessing sensitive and deep feelings.” Ex. 34:14; Num. 25:11; Deut. 4:24; 6:15; Josh. 24:19; Mosiah 11:22.

So, if you don't already know, the footnote referencing is presenting an alternate translation of the Hebrew word qannah, which is “possessing sensitive and deep feelings.” So what does that say? God isn't jealous, He's extremely sensitive and emotional and it hurts his feelings when we worship other Gods. Grants a totally different understanding of His nature, doesn't it?

There goes that rebuttal that I responded to.

Thanks for posting that, it's nothing surprising at all to me. That's what jealousy is at the root. It's having sensitive and deep feelings for your spouse that makes it hurt so much when he wants to get another.

Jealousy is yet another word perverted by the world, and I was not speaking of the worldly definition.

It's not wanting your spouse to have other spouses because what you have is too special and sacred to you and it makes you feel less important or special.
Men really don't want their wife to have other husbands right? Well amplify that feeling and what it would do, that's what it does to women. And we just tell women that they won't feel anything if they would just be more perfect.

[Fiannan]

What opponents to celestial marriage tend to ignore is that monogamy guarantees a large number of women will never, ever have a husband. But that is okay, right? Kind of like when someone tells a woman unable to have kids that all she has to do is wait until she is dead and then she will have the opportunity.

[Durzan]

What is odd is that our very biology suggests polygamy is wired into the DNA of the human species. Yet people do their best to deny this, even though it is never condemned in the scriptures.

And people deny the power of social programming.

That’s an interesting observation and assertion.

[Dusty52]

Not to pee in the swimming pool, but doesn't the constant debating of Polygamy make us Mormons look a little silly? It's like an obsession we can't seem to let go of. Ever. There's more threads on Polygamy than on any other subject.

Might as well argue about blood atonement, since we're not practicing that either.

I don't think it makes us look silly!
There is a reason why there are more threads on polygamy
I would suggest one of those reasons is that it doesn't sit well with us!
I know sisters in my ward who can't accept that they may have to share their husband in heaven!
It's not an issue from a bygone age it is still with us and is very real
Another issue is what polygamy has done to the image of the church, if I told someone in England that I was a Mormon I could quarantee that some would say "O you practice polygamy then?"
There are a lot of people who still think we do this!
Also occasionally there are television programs about polygamous groups in Utah (who the producers call Mormons) this has the effect of reinforcing their view about us
It turns a lot of people off and away from the church
The church in SLC must know of this but refuse to do anything about it
They could engage with the public on an educational initiative about who we are and what we believe, but no

[abijah]

i think i’ll have six wives. i need a day of rest

[Davka]

What is odd is that our very biology suggests polygamy is wired into the DNA of the human species. Yet people do their best to deny this, even though it is never condemned in the scriptures.

And people deny the power of social programming.

Polygamy may be hardwired into the DNA of men. Not of women. Women want a faithful, monogamous husband.

My source? I'm a woman.