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I know people in debt who live paycheck to paycheck and still pay their tithing each month before they pay their credit card payment because "first fruits" and hopes for the secret door in the back of the pantry.
Or it could be because the majority of people were farmers and only sold their produce etc. at harvest time- once a year.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:27 pm I find it interesting that D&C 119 states that we are to pay a tenth of our interest annually.
In my view this is because we need to calculate our surplus over an extended period. We can't really do it on a weekly or monthly basis because commitments and expenditure can change and vary over the short term.
This, to me at least, is further evidence that we are to pay on our calculated surplus.
I used to subsidize my "donations" by racking up credit card debt. Meaning, after paying 10% gross in tithing, I had to use credit in order to provide for my family of 8 and to cover all necessary expenses; this even after budgeting and living within our means. We did this for years and years, thinking eventually we'll get access to that hidden secret pantry, etc. Then I realized how stupid that was and how God does not want me to go in to debt and use credit so that I can pay tithing. So, I stopped going in to debt to pay tithing and started getting out of debt so that I can actually build up a surplus. The more surplus, the more I can tithe. I want to tithe more and that's the goal here. Contrary to the assertions being made, the goal is not to pay less. The goal is to pay tithing the way God intends me to pay tithing, to do things wisely, to do things in a sane and orderly way, and build up wealth/surplus by getting out of debt so that I can pay more in tithing. But I can't tithe what I don't have and paying tithing and then NEEDING to go in to debt to cover basic needs and expenses is crazy, in my opinion. God's plan and desire for us is not just to have the bare minimum we need to live/survive, but He also wants us to have some of our wants met and to be able to enjoy life outside of just pure survival.
I would like you to read this discourse given by Brigham Young in 1855 to the Saints in the Tabernacle. He was sent out by Joseph to collect the surplus property from the Saints. Then lets talk about this concept of surplus. I dont think we are any different than many of the early Saints were as it pertains to this principle. In fact I think we are much more steeped in babylon than were they. Its rather comical when we start giving lip service to living celestial principles without any real desire or intent on practicing what we covenant to do when it comes to consecration and the like. Babylon has a firm foothold on our hearts whether we want to admit it or not. All things are the Lords.. Yeah right.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:27 pm I find it interesting that D&C 119 states that we are to pay a tenth of our interest annually.
In my view this is because we need to calculate our surplus over an extended period. We can't really do it on a weekly or monthly basis because commitments and expenditure can change and vary over the short term.
This, to me at least, is further evidence that we are to pay on our calculated surplus.
Here's the portion of what Brigham experienced in his assignment:Of course, but their poduce was their surplus.shadow wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:33 pmOr it could be because the majority of people were farmers and only sold their produce etc. at harvest time- once a year.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:27 pm I find it interesting that D&C 119 states that we are to pay a tenth of our interest annually.
In my view this is because we need to calculate our surplus over an extended period. We can't really do it on a weekly or monthly basis because commitments and expenditure can change and vary over the short term.
This, to me at least, is further evidence that we are to pay on our calculated surplus.
To illustrate.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 2:25 pmOf course, but their poduce was their surplus.shadow wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:33 pmOr it could be because the majority of people were farmers and only sold their produce etc. at harvest time- once a year.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:27 pm I find it interesting that D&C 119 states that we are to pay a tenth of our interest annually.
In my view this is because we need to calculate our surplus over an extended period. We can't really do it on a weekly or monthly basis because commitments and expenditure can change and vary over the short term.
This, to me at least, is further evidence that we are to pay on our calculated surplus.
Or do you think they lived on fresh air for months on end?
Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 11:55 amYou must have missed what I said about stewardship.Mark wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 10:08 amYou are just making Shadows point here mate. He has said many times before in these discussions about tithing that a self employed business person will have a different way of figuring out their tithed income.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 9:45 pmSo, you go to work and are paid a salary.thisisspartaaa wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 8:29 pm
Not so. The answer is the interpretation from 1970:
It is referring to the word "income." Merriam-Webster defines it as such:
It is very clear what the Church is conveying here. If you believe in continual revelation, in the interpretation of Prophets and Apostles, this is the answer.
If you want to refer to "original" interpretation or the "way things used to be" in a Church that is completely and utterly about continual revelation you may want to examine your testimony. We are about to get blasted with more change this coming October.
What is your gain?
Think about the self-employed business owner or similar. Is all the "income" the same as "gain"? Clearly not.
I think you have an inaccurate view of the definition of "income". Income is the gain derived from labour rather than the compensation for it.
Understand that and you will understood the law of tithing.
I am self employed and understand that concept very well. There are necessary business expenses that go along with what I bring in on a gross basis from my business and so I figure that in just like I do when figuring out my taxes when I'm calculating my personal income to tithe. However if most people who are not self employed did as the Col and you suggest and just paid on any "surplus" they had left after ALL their monthly bills and home expenses were paid in full there would be virtually nothing left to pay tithing on. I guess maybe that is a good way of justifying paying next to nothing in building up the kingdom but I doubt it will fly with how the Lord looks at things.
Let's say I work for xyz company and make 3000 per mo. In income. After paying all the monthly bills and home expenses I may have a hundred bucks or pounds if you like left over if I'm lucky so I pull out a $10 and give it to the Bishop for my tithing. Many people wouldn't have anything left over after paying all their monthly bills so they are justifying themselves in paying absolutely nothing at all in tithing? That would probably be the case with most members of the church. I can tell you that if everyone had been doing that over the years temples and chapels would definitely not dot the globe. The church would be lucky to even pay the expenses for a very small few to keep them operating. I'm just glad most people in the church are much more generous in the payment of tithing that you guys seem to want to be. The furthering of the Lords work deserves much more of a priority than just throwing the Lord a scrappy chewed on broken wishbone after the entire bird and all the fixins has been gluttonously consumed.
If someone is earning £3000 a month and they only have £100 left after all their living expenses, they're doing it wrong. What do you mean by living expenses?
I believe living expenses include the following:
Food
Clothing
Water
Heat
Accomodation
Basic travel needs
So our basic needs don't include eating out, fancy goods, internet, entertainment etc
Here's a scenario for you.
I understand you are self-employed. Therefore, if you travel in your vehicle to a place of work you will account for the cost of that travel as a business expense. It's an overhead or expenditure of the business because without it you wouldnt be able to get to the customers place to perform your services, and therefore wouldn't earn anything.
Now, what about me. I am employed but have to travel to work in order to perform my duties and get paid in exchange for my time and skills. I have the same travelling costs as you but you get to count it as a business expense and it is therefore not taxable nor titheable (is that a word?) but I can't? Why not? Do I really have to pay tithing on everything my employer gives me even though I had to spend some of it getting there, while you don't?
You may have to wear work related clothing. Again this is deductable and you wouldn't tithe the money you used because it's a business expense. But what about the money I have to spend to clothe myself in order to go to work? Clearly I have to buy and wear, and wash and dry, and replace, clothing in addition to what I would need if I wasn't working.
We are not so different. I think, certainly where tithing is concerned, there is no difference between the employed and the self-employed.
Nope. From the previous years earnings he was able to save enough to order Domino's Pizza every day so he could feed his family.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 2:50 pmTo illustrate.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 2:25 pmOf course, but their poduce was their surplus.shadow wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:33 pmOr it could be because the majority of people were farmers and only sold their produce etc. at harvest time- once a year.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:27 pm I find it interesting that D&C 119 states that we are to pay a tenth of our interest annually.
In my view this is because we need to calculate our surplus over an extended period. We can't really do it on a weekly or monthly basis because commitments and expenditure can change and vary over the short term.
This, to me at least, is further evidence that we are to pay on our calculated surplus.
Or do you think they lived on fresh air for months on end?
Farmer Brigham has 500 sheep.
Each sheep produces one lamb. Therefore by the end of the year his flock, on paper at least, has grown to 1000. Therefore, according to your calculation he will pay a tithe of 50 sheep.
However, he can't because the truth is Farmer Brigham and his family are dead. They starved months ago.
Let's try again.
Farmer Brigham has 500 sheep.
Each sheep produces one lamb. However, he needs to eat so that he can continue to work the farm and look after the sheep, as well as meet his obligation to feed his wife and children. In order to do this he slaughters and eats 250 sheep throughout the year.
By the end of the year he has 750 sheep (500+500-250).
His increase over the year is now 250 sheep, as he started off with 500 and now has 750.
Do you think Farmer Brigham should pay a tithe of 50 sheep or 25?
Hugh Nibley in an article extensively quoting Brigham Young gave some insight that may have application. I recommend the entire article if Zion really IS the ultimate goal for someone..Finrock wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 2:11 pmI used to subsidize my "donations" by racking up credit card debt. Meaning, after paying 10% gross in tithing, I had to use credit in order to provide for my family of 8 and to cover all necessary expenses; this even after budgeting and living within our means. We did this for years and years, thinking eventually we'll get access to that hidden secret pantry, etc. Then I realized how stupid that was and how God does not want me to go in to debt and use credit so that I can pay tithing. So, I stopped going in to debt to pay tithing and started getting out of debt so that I can actually build up a surplus. The more surplus, the more I can tithe. I want to tithe more and that's the goal here. Contrary to the assertions being made, the goal is not to pay less. The goal is to pay tithing the way God intends me to pay tithing, to do things wisely, to do things in a sane and orderly way, and build up wealth/surplus by getting out of debt so that I can pay more in tithing. But I can't tithe what I don't have and paying tithing and then NEEDING to go in to debt to cover basic needs and expenses is crazy, in my opinion. God's plan and desire for us is not just to have the bare minimum we need to live/survive, but He also wants us to have some of our wants met and to be able to enjoy life outside of just pure survival.
-Finrock
I said £3000 not $3000.mtm411 wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 3:02 pm 3,000 isn't that much for a family. That's below the poverty level.
The average rent/mortgage for a 3 bedroom house around here is $1800-2000, and we don't live in California where it's way more. We spend $1000 a month on groceries and don't eat out. Our utilities are about $400 a month. For water, sewer, electric, gas. We pay cash for our cars.
Now we have a large family by today's standards, but I can't imagine anyone with children living on $3,000 a month.
Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 11:55 amYou must have missed what I said about stewardship.Mark wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 10:08 amYou are just making Shadows point here mate. He has said many times before in these discussions about tithing that a self employed business person will have a different way of figuring out their tithed income.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 9:45 pm
So, you go to work and are paid a salary.
What is your gain?
Think about the self-employed business owner or similar. Is all the "income" the same as "gain"? Clearly not.
I think you have an inaccurate view of the definition of "income". Income is the gain derived from labour rather than the compensation for it.
Understand that and you will understood the law of tithing.
I am self employed and understand that concept very well. There are necessary business expenses that go along with what I bring in on a gross basis from my business and so I figure that in just like I do when figuring out my taxes when I'm calculating my personal income to tithe. However if most people who are not self employed did as the Col and you suggest and just paid on any "surplus" they had left after ALL their monthly bills and home expenses were paid in full there would be virtually nothing left to pay tithing on. I guess maybe that is a good way of justifying paying next to nothing in building up the kingdom but I doubt it will fly with how the Lord looks at things.
Let's say I work for xyz company and make 3000 per mo. In income. After paying all the monthly bills and home expenses I may have a hundred bucks or pounds if you like left over if I'm lucky so I pull out a $10 and give it to the Bishop for my tithing. Many people wouldn't have anything left over after paying all their monthly bills so they are justifying themselves in paying absolutely nothing at all in tithing? That would probably be the case with most members of the church. I can tell you that if everyone had been doing that over the years temples and chapels would definitely not dot the globe. The church would be lucky to even pay the expenses for a very small few to keep them operating. I'm just glad most people in the church are much more generous in the payment of tithing that you guys seem to want to be. The furthering of the Lords work deserves much more of a priority than just throwing the Lord a scrappy chewed on broken wishbone after the entire bird and all the fixins has been gluttonously consumed.
If someone is earning £3000 a month and they only have £100 left after all their living expenses, they're doing it wrong. What do you mean by living expenses?
I believe living expenses include the following:
Food
Clothing
Water
Heat
Accomodation
Basic travel needs
So our basic needs don't include eating out, fancy goods, internet, entertainment etc
Here's a scenario for you.
I understand you are self-employed. Therefore, if you travel in your vehicle to a place of work you will account for the cost of that travel as a business expense. It's an overhead or expenditure of the business because without it you wouldnt be able to get to the customers place to perform your services, and therefore wouldn't earn anything.
Now, what about me. I am employed but have to travel to work in order to perform my duties and get paid in exchange for my time and skills. I have the same travelling costs as you but you get to count it as a business expense and it is therefore not taxable nor titheable (is that a word?) but I can't? Why not? Do I really have to pay tithing on everything my employer gives me even though I had to spend some of it getting there, while you don't?
You may have to wear work related clothing. Again this is deductable and you wouldn't tithe the money you used because it's a business expense. But what about the money I have to spend to clothe myself in order to go to work? Clearly I have to buy and wear, and wash and dry, and replace, clothing in addition to what I would need if I wasn't working.
We are not so different. I think, certainly where tithing is concerned, there is no difference between the employed and the self-employed.
Finrock wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 11:13 amI would expect you to not understand given the fact that I'm not offended. I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say what I said in the sense that I'm pretty sure God is OK with my method of paying tithing, I'm saying that God approved of it and that is why I pay tithing the way that I pay tithing. Meaning, I'm being blessed for doing the right thing and specifically because my heart is in full compliance with understanding that all we have belongs to the Lord. I'm saying that even though Baurak doesn't believe it and even though Baurak seems to believe he is doing things right and all those who disagree with him are hypocrites, he is wrong based on what God is telling me, and how God is directing my life. I don't apologize for ignoring the frill and the immaterial portions of a post and just focusing on the "nuts and bolts", especially when it involves condescending attitudes and self-righteousness.Sirius wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 10:36 amI don't understand you being offended by what he said, and then proceeding in trying to belittle him and his experience. I think his experience is great, and again a good reminder that all we have belongs to the Lord. He will still bless all of us, regardless of where our heart is in understanding that. Heaven knows I am still working out the fear of what I might be asked to sacrifice. So I applaud any who are striving to obey the Lord in the best way they know how, and the sacrifices they are making in doing so.Finrock wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 8:05 amIt sounds like you are saying that you are a much better person than all the "hypocrites on this forum" because of the way that you have decided that you want to pay tithing.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 7:31 am
I can do you one better with an example of this: I saw this dumb widow once give her entire mite to the church! What an inequally yoked slave of the corporation! Boy, did I point my finger and mock. I bet she’ll never know what it feels like to be wealthy in Babylon.
That paragraph was to satire the hypocrites on this forum. What ever happened to, “Prove me herewith sayeth the Lord”?
There was a time not long ago when, with three small children to feed and clothe, I paid tithing and a generous fast offering (some call that part the higher test of faith!) and I found myself with zero dollars and zero cents in my bank accounts. That very night the Lord gave me a dream wherein I was shown my bare pantry (as we were also down to consuming food storage) but it opened to a secret store room that was full of all manner of delicious food (I still get emotional recalling it). I knew then that the Lord is the provider of all things, that He would supply our needs and wants, and that I ought not fear the face of clay. From that day a few years ago until the present, He has not let me down and I have paid 10% on my whole income all along.
Am I wealthy? Let the scripture answer:
“Seek not for riches but for wisdom, and behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich“ (D&C 6:7).
I love how you try to use "scripture" language to make your post sound "legit".
I have paid tithing the way that I pay tithing which sounds different from how you pay tithing, and guess what? God has not let me down and God has blessed me tremendously. If your way is superior, how come God is blessing me, not letting me down, and is pleased with me?
-Finrock
Its funny how often we presume to think we know what God is thinking or feeling about other people based on our personal experiences. How often do we presume to think that God is talking to us, but not to the other guy?
Well, surprise, God is talking to me and I have a great relationship with Him, even though I don't agree with Baurak's philosophy on tithing and there is nothing Baurak can do about it except just accept the fact that he is dealing with equals.
-Finrock
Mark,Mark wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 2:17 pmI would like you to read this discourse given by Brigham Young in 1855 to the Saints in the Tabernacle. He was sent out by Joseph to collect the surplus property from the Saints. Then lets talk about this concept of surplus. I dont think we are any different than many of the early Saints were as it pertains to this principle. In fact I think we are much more steeped in babylon than were they. Its rather comical when we start giving lip service to living celestial principles without any real desire or intent on practicing what we covenant to do when it comes to consecration and the like. Babylon has a firm foothold on our hearts whether we want to admit it or not. All things are the Lords.. Yeah right.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:27 pm I find it interesting that D&C 119 states that we are to pay a tenth of our interest annually.
In my view this is because we need to calculate our surplus over an extended period. We can't really do it on a weekly or monthly basis because commitments and expenditure can change and vary over the short term.
This, to me at least, is further evidence that we are to pay on our calculated surplus.
"A number of revelations were given on the same day. The brethren wished me to go among the Churches, and find out what surplus property the people had with which to forward the building of the Temple we were commencing at Far West. I accordingly went from place to place through the country. Before I started, I asked brother Joseph, “Who shall be the judge of what is surplus property?” Said he, “Let them be the judges themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime. So far as I am concerned, I do not want anything they have.”
Then I replied, “I will go and ask them for their surplus property;” and I did so; I found the people said they were willing to do about as they were counseled, but, upon asking them about their surplus property, most of the men who owned land and cattle would say, “I have got so many hundred acres of land, and I have got so many boys, and I want each one of them to have eighty acres, therefore this is not surplus property.” Again, “I have got so many girls, and I do not believe I shall be able to give them more than forty acres each.” “Well, you have got two or three hundred acres left.” “Yes, but I have a brother-in-law coming on, and he will depend on me for a living; my wife's nephew is also coming on, he is poor, and I shall have to furnish him a farm after he arrives here.” I would go on to the next one, and he would have more land and cattle than he could make use of to advantage. It is a laughable idea, but is nevertheless true, men would tell me they were young and beginning the world, and would say, “We have no children, but our prospects are good, and we think we shall have a family of children, and if we do, we want to give them eighty acres of land each; we have no surplus property.” “How many cattle have you?” “So many.” “How many horses, &c?” “So many, but I have made provisions for all these, and I have use for everything I have got.”
Some were disposed to do right with their surplus property, and once in a while you would find a man who had a cow which he considered surplus, but generally she was of the class that would kick a person's hat off, or eyes out, or the wolves had eaten off her teats. You would once in a while find a man who had a horse that he considered surplus, but at the same time he had the ringbone, was broken-winded, spavined in both legs, had the poll evil at one end of the neck and a fistula at the other, and both knees sprung.
This is the description of surplus property that some would offer to the Lord. Such have been the feelings of a great many men. They would come to me and say, “Brother Brigham, I want to pay my tithing; please come outside here, I wish to show you a horse I have got. I want to raise fifty dollars on this horse, and the balance I am willing to turn in on tithing. If you will pay me twenty dollars in money, ten in store pay, and so much on another man's tithing, and so much on my own, you shall have the horse for eighty dollars;” when I could get as good a one for forty. I make no such trades. Some of our brethren would actually take a horse worth no more than forty dollars, pay fifty and give credit on tithing for thirty.
I mention these things to illustrate the feelings of many of the people, for they do not understand the spirit they are of. When a man wishes to give anything, let him give the best he has got. The Lord has given to me all I possess; I have nothing in reality, not a single dime of it is mine. You may ask, “Do you feel as you say?” Yes, I actually do. The coat I haveon my back is not mine, and never was; the Lord put it in my possession honorably, and I wear it; but if He wishes for it, and all there is under it, He is welcome to the whole. I do not own a house, or a single foot of land, a horse, mule, carriage, or wagon, nor wife, nor child, but what the Lord gave me, and if He wants them, He can take them at His pleasure, whether He speaks for them, or takes them without speaking. Should this be the feeling to animate every bosom? It should. What have you to consecrate that is actually your own? Nothing. The time will come when the people will look back on their first experience, and they will realize that that which they now consider hardship was their greatest blessing. They are called to leave their homes, their parents, their families, and their native country. They are called away by the providence of God to what they now consider to be sorrow; but it is not so, it is only an experience put into the possession of the Saints, that they may know the blessings of eternity. There is no being in eternity about whom we have ever read or heard, but what has suffered in like manner as we have, for it was by suffering they had to gain their exaltation, as you and I will have to do."
http://jod.mrm.org/2/298
I forgot to mention... the previous year was a disaster.shadow wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 3:03 pmNope. From the previous years earnings he was able to save enough to order Domino's Pizza every day so he could feed his family.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 2:50 pmTo illustrate.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 2:25 pmOf course, but their poduce was their surplus.
Or do you think they lived on fresh air for months on end?
Farmer Brigham has 500 sheep.
Each sheep produces one lamb. Therefore by the end of the year his flock, on paper at least, has grown to 1000. Therefore, according to your calculation he will pay a tithe of 50 sheep.
However, he can't because the truth is Farmer Brigham and his family are dead. They starved months ago.
Let's try again.
Farmer Brigham has 500 sheep.
Each sheep produces one lamb. However, he needs to eat so that he can continue to work the farm and look after the sheep, as well as meet his obligation to feed his wife and children. In order to do this he slaughters and eats 250 sheep throughout the year.
By the end of the year he has 750 sheep (500+500-250).
His increase over the year is now 250 sheep, as he started off with 500 and now has 750.
Do you think Farmer Brigham should pay a tithe of 50 sheep or 25?
Finrock wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 3:14 pmMark,Mark wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 2:17 pmI would like you to read this discourse given by Brigham Young in 1855 to the Saints in the Tabernacle. He was sent out by Joseph to collect the surplus property from the Saints. Then lets talk about this concept of surplus. I dont think we are any different than many of the early Saints were as it pertains to this principle. In fact I think we are much more steeped in babylon than were they. Its rather comical when we start giving lip service to living celestial principles without any real desire or intent on practicing what we covenant to do when it comes to consecration and the like. Babylon has a firm foothold on our hearts whether we want to admit it or not. All things are the Lords.. Yeah right.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 1:27 pm I find it interesting that D&C 119 states that we are to pay a tenth of our interest annually.
In my view this is because we need to calculate our surplus over an extended period. We can't really do it on a weekly or monthly basis because commitments and expenditure can change and vary over the short term.
This, to me at least, is further evidence that we are to pay on our calculated surplus.
"A number of revelations were given on the same day. The brethren wished me to go among the Churches, and find out what surplus property the people had with which to forward the building of the Temple we were commencing at Far West. I accordingly went from place to place through the country. Before I started, I asked brother Joseph, “Who shall be the judge of what is surplus property?” Said he, “Let them be the judges themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime. So far as I am concerned, I do not want anything they have.”
Then I replied, “I will go and ask them for their surplus property;” and I did so; I found the people said they were willing to do about as they were counseled, but, upon asking them about their surplus property, most of the men who owned land and cattle would say, “I have got so many hundred acres of land, and I have got so many boys, and I want each one of them to have eighty acres, therefore this is not surplus property.” Again, “I have got so many girls, and I do not believe I shall be able to give them more than forty acres each.” “Well, you have got two or three hundred acres left.” “Yes, but I have a brother-in-law coming on, and he will depend on me for a living; my wife's nephew is also coming on, he is poor, and I shall have to furnish him a farm after he arrives here.” I would go on to the next one, and he would have more land and cattle than he could make use of to advantage. It is a laughable idea, but is nevertheless true, men would tell me they were young and beginning the world, and would say, “We have no children, but our prospects are good, and we think we shall have a family of children, and if we do, we want to give them eighty acres of land each; we have no surplus property.” “How many cattle have you?” “So many.” “How many horses, &c?” “So many, but I have made provisions for all these, and I have use for everything I have got.”
Some were disposed to do right with their surplus property, and once in a while you would find a man who had a cow which he considered surplus, but generally she was of the class that would kick a person's hat off, or eyes out, or the wolves had eaten off her teats. You would once in a while find a man who had a horse that he considered surplus, but at the same time he had the ringbone, was broken-winded, spavined in both legs, had the poll evil at one end of the neck and a fistula at the other, and both knees sprung.
This is the description of surplus property that some would offer to the Lord. Such have been the feelings of a great many men. They would come to me and say, “Brother Brigham, I want to pay my tithing; please come outside here, I wish to show you a horse I have got. I want to raise fifty dollars on this horse, and the balance I am willing to turn in on tithing. If you will pay me twenty dollars in money, ten in store pay, and so much on another man's tithing, and so much on my own, you shall have the horse for eighty dollars;” when I could get as good a one for forty. I make no such trades. Some of our brethren would actually take a horse worth no more than forty dollars, pay fifty and give credit on tithing for thirty.
I mention these things to illustrate the feelings of many of the people, for they do not understand the spirit they are of. When a man wishes to give anything, let him give the best he has got. The Lord has given to me all I possess; I have nothing in reality, not a single dime of it is mine. You may ask, “Do you feel as you say?” Yes, I actually do. The coat I haveon my back is not mine, and never was; the Lord put it in my possession honorably, and I wear it; but if He wishes for it, and all there is under it, He is welcome to the whole. I do not own a house, or a single foot of land, a horse, mule, carriage, or wagon, nor wife, nor child, but what the Lord gave me, and if He wants them, He can take them at His pleasure, whether He speaks for them, or takes them without speaking. Should this be the feeling to animate every bosom? It should. What have you to consecrate that is actually your own? Nothing. The time will come when the people will look back on their first experience, and they will realize that that which they now consider hardship was their greatest blessing. They are called to leave their homes, their parents, their families, and their native country. They are called away by the providence of God to what they now consider to be sorrow; but it is not so, it is only an experience put into the possession of the Saints, that they may know the blessings of eternity. There is no being in eternity about whom we have ever read or heard, but what has suffered in like manner as we have, for it was by suffering they had to gain their exaltation, as you and I will have to do."
http://jod.mrm.org/2/298
President Young owed the Church hundreds of thousands of dollars after his death (millions in today's money). This, of course, doesn't affect the principles in that report you are quoting, however, given the fact that BY lived off the Church for much/most? of his life, used Church money as if it was his personal money, and never paid back a huge amount of debt he owed the Church (from what I can gather, this money was never collected), then its seems that BY eventually became one of those members who "held back".
In any case, the high up Church leaders of today, by all indications, don't pay a 10% gross tithing on all of their "income". So, what's good enough for Church leaders, is good enough for us.
Also, I might have a different perspective on tithing if I could borrow from the Church's tithing fund as I please, if I received 120K+ a year in salary, I received housing allowance, I received help paying my children's tuition, I received a fund to cover lawn care, a maid, a vehicle, and other perks, all from the Church. Btw, leaders don't pay tithing on the "stipend" they get, or tithing on their allowances, or tithing for the tuition they might get for their kids, or tithing for any of the other perks/increase that they get from the Church. Although we don't have exact information and there are some holes in our knowledge, given all that we do know based on the sources that are available, Church leaders pay tithing on their surplus, if they pay tithing at all.
It seems strange that people who don't pay 10% gross tithing on all of their increase would require that from others. And, guess what, that is why I believe in the CHI it forbids Church leaders from defining tithing as anything more or anything less than what it says in D&C 119. They can't say its "gross", etc.
-Finrock
It was even worse than that... Bro. Brigham was indebted to the church over a million bucks when he died because he was using church coffers as his own personal bank account. In today's dollars, that would be about $25 million.mtm411 wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 4:44 pm President Young also asked my ancestor and other profitable business owners in Provo to live the law of consecration and deed their properties to him. They ended up impoverished as they were no longer getting the profits and the church didn't support them, it was basically just a gift. This ancestor was not complaining, by the way he just stated how wonderful that he was asked by the prophet himself to deed over his business. the result was poverty, he didn't connect those dots in his memoir. Brother Brigham was a little loosey goosey with church funds and asking people for money in the name of the church.
I'm glad we're on the same page about all scripture indicating tithing to be based on increase.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 9:34 amAlthough I have a degree of sympathy with the sentiment expressed, the only tithing law which applies to us in our day is found in D&C 119. In this modern day revelation through the Prophet, the Lord was clear about what tithing is to be used for:Thinker wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 7:44 am BaurakAle,
Yes, God and Christ look on the heart. Jesus didn’t focus on the widow giving a small amount to corrupt religious leaders who he knew would soon torture & kill him. He focused on the widow’s heart - how she meant to do good in giving her all. Similarly, when Jesus was approached by a rich man and the rich man refused to part with his wealth to help those in need, he saw his greedy heart and said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
That one mingling with scripture the philosophy of a man contradicts many scriptures in the Bible and Doctrine & Covenants - which all state that tithing is on INCREASE (& it’s logical since charging for worthiness on income before bills causes many to not be able to pay bills - increasing poverty).thisisspartaaa wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 8:29 pmNot so. The answer is the interpretation from 1970:Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 4:32 pm Shadow, you are mistaken.
However, in truth, the only law of tithing which applies to us today is found in D&C 119. And that is clearly referring to surplus. Just look up the meaning of the word interest, or even increase, in a Websters dictionary from that time.
Case closed.
It is referring to the word "income." Merriam-Webster defines it as such:The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay 'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.
It is very clear what the Church is conveying here. If you believe in continual revelation, in the interpretation of Prophets and Apostles, this is the answer.a gain or recurrent benefit usually measured in money that derives from capital or labor
also : the amount of such gain received in a period of time
has an income of $30,000 a year
If you want to refer to "original" interpretation or the "way things used to be" in a Church that is completely and utterly about continual revelation you may want to examine your testimony. We are about to get blasted with more change this coming October.
Is this REALLY “the church of the church leaders”? If so, then it’s their way or the highway. But if this is the Church of Jesus Christ, then let’s consider what Jesus said whenever there might be a conflict...
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”-Matt 22:37-40
Repeatedly, like in the parables of the Good Samaritan & the sheep and goats - Jesus taught that as we love others, we love God - and that is most important.
Jesus did not ever state a set amount to give to the poor - realizing some are poor and don’t have any to give but for the very wealthy (which our church is) he commanded to give it all to the poor and come and follow him. But they wouldn’t & Jesus said “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” Money itself is good when used for good - but when held up above helping those in need - it is damning.
It states that 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to those in need - in Deuteronomy 14:28-29. Look in lds paper bible index & dictionary under “tithing,” & see that scripture is missing. It’s as if church leaders did not want members knowing about such an important scripture dictating how tithing collectors were supposed to handle sacred tithes. Although lds church leaders keep finances dark & secret, Dallin Oaks admitted that no tithes go to the poor. This is breaking the greatest commandments which prioritize above “all the law and the prophets.”
I worship God - not church leaders. I follow Christ’s core teachings so I send my tithes to those in need.
1. "building mine house".
2. "laying the foundation of Zion".
3. the "debts of the Presidency of my church".
Nothing there about the poor.
You're conflating the running of a business with personal wages. They are not the same.Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 9:45 pmSo, you go to work and are paid a salary.thisisspartaaa wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 8:29 pmNot so. The answer is the interpretation from 1970:Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 4:32 pmShadow, you are mistaken.
However, in truth, the only law of tithing which applies to us today is found in D&C 119. And that is clearly referring to surplus. Just look up the meaning of the word interest, or even increase, in a Websters dictionary from that time.
Case closed.
It is referring to the word "income." Merriam-Webster defines it as such:The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay 'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.
It is very clear what the Church is conveying here. If you believe in continual revelation, in the interpretation of Prophets and Apostles, this is the answer.a gain or recurrent benefit usually measured in money that derives from capital or labor
also : the amount of such gain received in a period of time
has an income of $30,000 a year
If you want to refer to "original" interpretation or the "way things used to be" in a Church that is completely and utterly about continual revelation you may want to examine your testimony. We are about to get blasted with more change this coming October.
What is your gain?
Think about the self-employed business owner or similar. Is all the "income" the same as "gain"? Clearly not.
I think you have an inaccurate view of the definition of "income". Income is the gain derived from labour rather than the compensation for it.
Understand that and you will understood the law of tithing.
Sounds like the Lord helped out the Church. Not sure why you are giving frowny faces here. Wealth is not bad. You sound very bitter of success.Col. Flagg wrote: ↑October 1st, 2018, 11:31 pm For those of you who are unaware... President Lorenzo Snow changed the law of tithing for the Saints when the church was on the verge of bankruptcy in 1899 due to church leaders investing tithing in real estate (which is exactly what's going on right now, only on a much larger scale) as well as exorbitant legal costs due to the practice of polygamy. President Snow told the members they were to from now on pay 10% of their income as a tithe instead of the increase (surplus) that they were practicing. The church suddenly had so much money coming in, it was quickly out of debt and they brought in N. Eldon Tanner to manage all the excess - he began investing it again and started the church on a road to where it is now one of the top wealthiest corporations in the United States. In fact, I believe if it were recognized as a true corporation instead of religious organization, it would rank as the 88th wealthiest on Fortune 500's list. I would surmise that even though we are exceptionally wealthy as a church, we are poor in spirit because of it.
Comparing ourselves to others as a way to measure up is wrong. Plenty of conference talks on this subject.mtm411 wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 10:36 am Honestly, with the 32 billion the church was recently revealed to have in investments, none of us would ever have to pay tithing again, and the church would keep going a long time. I don't think tithing is about what the church needs, it's about a covenant made as individuals.
I do dislike the flat 10% of gross income model. Say one man makes 100,000 a year and he's a bachelor, in a small apartment, no dependents. Another man makes the same 100,000 a year, but has a wife and 8 kids and 2 of those kids have diabetes that requires $1000 a month each in insulin. They need a larger living space than the bachelor and pay accordingly. Both of these men are paying exactly the same amount in tithing, even though one is raking it in and saving and investing it and the other is in a cycle of debt trying to care for his family. It just doesn't seem quite logical that the requirements are the same.
I pay 10%, but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't further defining of tithing as 10% of income in the future. Especially since the church doesn't need the money.
The idea that we can pay God for blessings is prosperity gospel junk doctrine. God is not a genie that can be bribed into blessing us. We should give because Christ taught generosity, and we are serious about following Him.Sirius wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2018, 10:50 am If we are truly trying to understand the spirit and reason for tithing, why are we looking to interpret any scripture regarding it in terms of, "what's most fair for me"? Our Father LOVES us and is blessing us regardless if we pay a tithe or not. He is looking for ways to bless us, not ways to withhold. We would do well to follow His example.