I am in a City with population guestimation around 50K likely larger considering the surrounding properties and population.
Many have stated that safety while the civil society collapses around us, would be best to have you family located in rural areas in America. Additionally Some have outlined specific areas not to be.
Any opinions or thoughts on this?
Why would you want to be in Salt Lake City or any other Metro City location? Why not?
WHere you live?
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bobhenstra
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 7236
- Location: Central Utah
Re: WHere you live?
I live about 70 miles South of SLC, 30 miles South of the Provo Orem area. Just far enough that those gangs will have to get here on foot. We'll have problems, but they won't be like the problems city people will have.
Because I live alone, when all hell breaks loose, I'll move in with my oldest son, they'll have to come over a mountain to get to him. And he's all set up with solar electricity, heat and hot water. All he needs now is his own well, and thats next on his agenda.
Bob
Because I live alone, when all hell breaks loose, I'll move in with my oldest son, they'll have to come over a mountain to get to him. And he's all set up with solar electricity, heat and hot water. All he needs now is his own well, and thats next on his agenda.
Bob
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ChelC
- The Law
- Posts: 5982
- Location: Utah
Re: WHere you live?
I would be more rural if I could be for the reasons Bob mentioned. I wish we had more land, but the Spirit keeps us in place for now.
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M249Gunner
- captain of 100
- Posts: 985
Re: WHere you live?
I was very blessed about a year ago to move to a nice rural ranching/mining community. I wouldn't want to be in or near a big city. People are crazy and they become worse when there are problems.
I was just reading a site on the internet about the Battle of Verdun the other night. It was the longest battle in history, lasting about a year and costing somewhere on the order of 700k lives (maybe that included wounded and MIA). It was fought in a small ~6 sqmi area. You can immagine how horrible it would be with that many dead bodies and that much blood around. One of the soldiers, having lived the barbarity of the situation, commented that people were crazy to be doing what they were doing. One soldier told of another soldier, crazy from thirst, drinking from a puddle of water with a green slime covering it and a blackened, bloated corpse floating in it.
http://www.wereldoorlog1418.nl/battleve ... tuigen.htm
Here is a reminder of the battle as memorialized in the Douaumont Ossuary:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/espinos/898186203/
http://www.verdun-douaumont.com/en/index.html
I was just reading a site on the internet about the Battle of Verdun the other night. It was the longest battle in history, lasting about a year and costing somewhere on the order of 700k lives (maybe that included wounded and MIA). It was fought in a small ~6 sqmi area. You can immagine how horrible it would be with that many dead bodies and that much blood around. One of the soldiers, having lived the barbarity of the situation, commented that people were crazy to be doing what they were doing. One soldier told of another soldier, crazy from thirst, drinking from a puddle of water with a green slime covering it and a blackened, bloated corpse floating in it.
http://www.wereldoorlog1418.nl/battleve ... tuigen.htm
Here is a reminder of the battle as memorialized in the Douaumont Ossuary:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/espinos/898186203/
http://www.verdun-douaumont.com/en/index.html
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tmac
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4533
- Location: Reality
Re: WHere you live?
Although I don't spend much time here any more, I'm sitting here Thanksgiving morning; it's too wet outside to do anything productive, so I'm kind of hanging out, trying to stay of the way of the bustling that's going on in the kitchen.
On this subject of where to live, I have some pretty strong opinions, and at times have thought about starting a thread about some of what I'm going to talk about here.
Since long before more recent interest in "getting out of the city," etc., I have long believed that there are a number of advantages to living in the country. On the other hand, I also acknowledge that there are also disadvantages. And even when times get a whole lot tougher than they are now, country living will not be all pros and no cons -- particularly the way our country has evolved, and become less and less self sufficient.
Time was -- say 50-100 years ago (pre WWII) -- when within not more than about 50 miles of many rural communities almost anything and everything you might need was produced. But it's certainly not that way anymore, so even rural communities will have a very rude awakening when the time comes.
But here are the main points I want to make:
1. For most people it's not possible to just move out into the country and start living self-sufficiently. Why? Because they need a job. They need income, etc., and there usually aren't that many jobs in the country. So from my perspective, the equation needs to include what I call a "nexus." That means a place where there is a nexus between self-sufficient country living, etc., and employment and income producing opportunities.
2. One thing to bear in mind, if you are considering buying a place in the country, etc., to "bug out to," when the goin' gets tough, is that many of the people who already live there (like me) aren't always going to be that happy to see you just show up. They don't know much about you -- what your skills and resources are, if you're going to be a drag on your neighbors, etc. And they would just as soon know a lot of that in advance. In short, to steal a line from the series Jericho, they want to "know who they're going to be sharing their foxhole with."
3. Unless they do something about it in advance (like read and put in to practice a lot of what Bob Henstra talks about), most people won't have the skills necessary to really make a go of it in the country. On that score, I often quote a line from the Man from Snowy River -- "ownin' it's got nothin' to do with it; it's who can make a go of it up 'ere that counts." I know some of you out there like to quote from Napoleon Dynamite, so you should be able to relate to this -- skills do count. Please forgive me for being blunt, but the last thing most country neighbors (including me) want is to have a bunch of clueless, skill-less people just show up that will have to be tended and taken care of.
4. Now, for my biggest point, which can actually be a solution to the others, as well as other issues in life. I think most of these discussions way under-estimate a woman's role in all this. Cutting right to the chase -- a good woman can run a small farm. I know that's not how most in our culture, etc., are programmed, but women are very capable of it, and in many, many places throughout the world that is how it is done. So, what's the point? From my perspective, this is also a practical solution to the pressure women feel to work outside the home and provide another income, etc. -- especially by the time you factor child care, etc., into the equation.
Just for the sake of hypothetical discussion, and as advice to someone considering what to do in this regard, I'm going to state it, as if I were giving advice to my children and their spouses (some day). Rather than ever encourage any of my children to live and raise a family in "the city," and feel the pressure, etc., to have a two income household to pay for it, etc., I would encourage them to have (rent, buy, build, etc.,) a home on a small, subsistence agricultural acreage in the country, within some kind of reasonable driving distance to good employment opportunities for the husband. There is no question in my mind that by tending a good-sized garden, a flock of chickens, milking a goat or a cow, etc., -- and expanding as much as she is capable of without being completely overwhelmed (I have a 14 year-old daughter who would be fully capable of running many ranches, and certainly all the chores, almost entirely by herself) -- a woman can make a far greater economic contribution to a family than she would by working a job. And she will "be there" to raise and nurture her children, and can be (depending on her attitude, etc.) very happy, content and fulfilled in the process.. In fact, all of what I have just described falls very naturally under a woman's nurturing role, and she is actually capable of handling that aspect of it (gardening, chores, caring for animals, etc.) even better than most men.
If it was necessary, I would encourage my children to even be willing to have the husband live and work "in the city" during the week, if necessary, living in a cheap apartment, camp trailer, tent, whatever, if necessary, to minimize expenses, and make it work. Obviously, that wouldn't be ideal, and even a long commute would probably be better, but I would encourage them to do whatever they had to do to take their divinely ordained roles very seriously -- for the husband to be a good provider, even if that meant living and working in town during the week to have a good job, run a successful business, etc.; and put the wife in a position to feel safe and secure in her role as the primary nurturer, child-rearer, etc., while holding down the fort on the home front. This would also give them the opportunity to start developing both the relationships (in the community, with neighbors, etc.), and the skills, etc., that would be necessary for tougher times. But I will have to say that this scenario assumes a more simple life. If a woman is also determined to be a soccer mom and run her kids all over kingdom come for every kind of event and opportunity that presents itself, it's probably not going to work very well.
Although my situation is different, because we own a small ranch, etc., and I'm a self-employed businessman and often travel quite a bit in my line of work, my wife and kids pretty much hold down the fort much of the time. At times I can be gone 4-5 days a week, or I can be around for 5 days. When I'm around, I try to handle most of the heavier type work that a man should do. But my wife and kids are fully capable of handling the "chores" and are very happy and content doing it.
Now, just for the heck of it, I'm going to throw out a few numbers for people to chew on and run some numbers for financial comparison. The small rural community that we live closest to is about 90 minutes away (with a number of small towns in between) from several considerably larger communities, where a man could definitely find a good job. Although our ranch is a couple miles outside of town, that is where we prefer to live. So, we built a shop building on the ranch with living quarters, including a passive solar basement, etc., on the south end. But four years ago (and this is the lead up to the primary numbers discussion) we bought a home in town that was on the market. At that time, there were very few homes for sale in this community. This one came up and we grabbed it. Although it was a solid house, and not a serious "fixer-upper," It had belonged to a 97 year-old bachelor, who had passed away, so needless to say, although it was in reasonably good shape, it hadn't been updated in some time (most of it was 50s-70s vintage). But it was 1800 sq. ft, and had 1.25 acres, with pressurized irrigation water, two small pastures, corrals, a big barn, a chicken coop, and a good garden spot. We paid $92,000 four years ago. Although the real estate market went kind of crazy after that, and because a couple houses in town sold for quite a bit, now there are a handful of other houses on the market (including some very high priced ones), a place like this one can still be bought for $150-200,000. And something that is more of a fixer-upper and/or on a smaller lot, etc., can be bought for less. From those figures, you ought to be able to figure rent, a mortgage payment, etc., and do the math, factoring the garden, eggs, milk, meat, etc., (but also more fuel) into the equation, to determine whether you would be better off NOW. Then, consider where and how you would want to be situated when *%$# hits the fan.
Forgive me if I'm not being politically correct, but the bottom line is a good woman can raise a good family and run a small farm, with a little help from her husband.
On this subject of where to live, I have some pretty strong opinions, and at times have thought about starting a thread about some of what I'm going to talk about here.
Since long before more recent interest in "getting out of the city," etc., I have long believed that there are a number of advantages to living in the country. On the other hand, I also acknowledge that there are also disadvantages. And even when times get a whole lot tougher than they are now, country living will not be all pros and no cons -- particularly the way our country has evolved, and become less and less self sufficient.
Time was -- say 50-100 years ago (pre WWII) -- when within not more than about 50 miles of many rural communities almost anything and everything you might need was produced. But it's certainly not that way anymore, so even rural communities will have a very rude awakening when the time comes.
But here are the main points I want to make:
1. For most people it's not possible to just move out into the country and start living self-sufficiently. Why? Because they need a job. They need income, etc., and there usually aren't that many jobs in the country. So from my perspective, the equation needs to include what I call a "nexus." That means a place where there is a nexus between self-sufficient country living, etc., and employment and income producing opportunities.
2. One thing to bear in mind, if you are considering buying a place in the country, etc., to "bug out to," when the goin' gets tough, is that many of the people who already live there (like me) aren't always going to be that happy to see you just show up. They don't know much about you -- what your skills and resources are, if you're going to be a drag on your neighbors, etc. And they would just as soon know a lot of that in advance. In short, to steal a line from the series Jericho, they want to "know who they're going to be sharing their foxhole with."
3. Unless they do something about it in advance (like read and put in to practice a lot of what Bob Henstra talks about), most people won't have the skills necessary to really make a go of it in the country. On that score, I often quote a line from the Man from Snowy River -- "ownin' it's got nothin' to do with it; it's who can make a go of it up 'ere that counts." I know some of you out there like to quote from Napoleon Dynamite, so you should be able to relate to this -- skills do count. Please forgive me for being blunt, but the last thing most country neighbors (including me) want is to have a bunch of clueless, skill-less people just show up that will have to be tended and taken care of.
4. Now, for my biggest point, which can actually be a solution to the others, as well as other issues in life. I think most of these discussions way under-estimate a woman's role in all this. Cutting right to the chase -- a good woman can run a small farm. I know that's not how most in our culture, etc., are programmed, but women are very capable of it, and in many, many places throughout the world that is how it is done. So, what's the point? From my perspective, this is also a practical solution to the pressure women feel to work outside the home and provide another income, etc. -- especially by the time you factor child care, etc., into the equation.
Just for the sake of hypothetical discussion, and as advice to someone considering what to do in this regard, I'm going to state it, as if I were giving advice to my children and their spouses (some day). Rather than ever encourage any of my children to live and raise a family in "the city," and feel the pressure, etc., to have a two income household to pay for it, etc., I would encourage them to have (rent, buy, build, etc.,) a home on a small, subsistence agricultural acreage in the country, within some kind of reasonable driving distance to good employment opportunities for the husband. There is no question in my mind that by tending a good-sized garden, a flock of chickens, milking a goat or a cow, etc., -- and expanding as much as she is capable of without being completely overwhelmed (I have a 14 year-old daughter who would be fully capable of running many ranches, and certainly all the chores, almost entirely by herself) -- a woman can make a far greater economic contribution to a family than she would by working a job. And she will "be there" to raise and nurture her children, and can be (depending on her attitude, etc.) very happy, content and fulfilled in the process.. In fact, all of what I have just described falls very naturally under a woman's nurturing role, and she is actually capable of handling that aspect of it (gardening, chores, caring for animals, etc.) even better than most men.
If it was necessary, I would encourage my children to even be willing to have the husband live and work "in the city" during the week, if necessary, living in a cheap apartment, camp trailer, tent, whatever, if necessary, to minimize expenses, and make it work. Obviously, that wouldn't be ideal, and even a long commute would probably be better, but I would encourage them to do whatever they had to do to take their divinely ordained roles very seriously -- for the husband to be a good provider, even if that meant living and working in town during the week to have a good job, run a successful business, etc.; and put the wife in a position to feel safe and secure in her role as the primary nurturer, child-rearer, etc., while holding down the fort on the home front. This would also give them the opportunity to start developing both the relationships (in the community, with neighbors, etc.), and the skills, etc., that would be necessary for tougher times. But I will have to say that this scenario assumes a more simple life. If a woman is also determined to be a soccer mom and run her kids all over kingdom come for every kind of event and opportunity that presents itself, it's probably not going to work very well.
Although my situation is different, because we own a small ranch, etc., and I'm a self-employed businessman and often travel quite a bit in my line of work, my wife and kids pretty much hold down the fort much of the time. At times I can be gone 4-5 days a week, or I can be around for 5 days. When I'm around, I try to handle most of the heavier type work that a man should do. But my wife and kids are fully capable of handling the "chores" and are very happy and content doing it.
Now, just for the heck of it, I'm going to throw out a few numbers for people to chew on and run some numbers for financial comparison. The small rural community that we live closest to is about 90 minutes away (with a number of small towns in between) from several considerably larger communities, where a man could definitely find a good job. Although our ranch is a couple miles outside of town, that is where we prefer to live. So, we built a shop building on the ranch with living quarters, including a passive solar basement, etc., on the south end. But four years ago (and this is the lead up to the primary numbers discussion) we bought a home in town that was on the market. At that time, there were very few homes for sale in this community. This one came up and we grabbed it. Although it was a solid house, and not a serious "fixer-upper," It had belonged to a 97 year-old bachelor, who had passed away, so needless to say, although it was in reasonably good shape, it hadn't been updated in some time (most of it was 50s-70s vintage). But it was 1800 sq. ft, and had 1.25 acres, with pressurized irrigation water, two small pastures, corrals, a big barn, a chicken coop, and a good garden spot. We paid $92,000 four years ago. Although the real estate market went kind of crazy after that, and because a couple houses in town sold for quite a bit, now there are a handful of other houses on the market (including some very high priced ones), a place like this one can still be bought for $150-200,000. And something that is more of a fixer-upper and/or on a smaller lot, etc., can be bought for less. From those figures, you ought to be able to figure rent, a mortgage payment, etc., and do the math, factoring the garden, eggs, milk, meat, etc., (but also more fuel) into the equation, to determine whether you would be better off NOW. Then, consider where and how you would want to be situated when *%$# hits the fan.
Forgive me if I'm not being politically correct, but the bottom line is a good woman can raise a good family and run a small farm, with a little help from her husband.
Last edited by tmac on November 27th, 2008, 8:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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bobhenstra
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 7236
- Location: Central Utah
Re: WHere you live?
I've read your post 4 times now, I'm not sure if your asking for advice or just sharing your thoughts, which I appreciated BTW. How is your ranch powered, self powered or by the electric company? Given the choice between the two, I'd live on the ranch, sell the house and set the ranch up for solar hot water, along with solar and wind power generation. If I didn't have a well, I'd drill one. Not that you were asking you understand, just my opinion!
Bob
Bob
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tmac
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4533
- Location: Reality
Re: WHere you live?
Thanks Bob. I wasn't really asking for advice. I was attempting to give advice, based on experience, to anyone considering whether they would be better off in the country vs. the city. Sounds like I did a pretty poor job of it. We're working on solar and wind power on the ranch, backed up by a generator. At this point, the house in town is intended more as a back-up, investment and/or for other family members who we might need to help out.
Last edited by tmac on November 27th, 2008, 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Adams
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1084
- Location: Northern Idaho
Re: WHere you live?
tmac,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have been lucky enough the past few months to get a new job (that pays me more) and still move to a small little town about 15 miles away from where I work. I have a wife that sometimes struggles a little with my "awakening" that's happened over the past few years, but at the same time does her best to support me (and at the same time is becoming more and more confident in who she is and the talents she gained from growing up in a small community--gardening being the main one). We still struggle constantly with the ongoing battle between Zion and Babylon, but still feel very blessed in what has been presented to us as we have tried harder to follow the principles of freedom that we been better learning the past few years. I hope I have enough time to "get to know" the other country folk and to be able to contribute to their community as things continue to unravel. Day to day I still struggle with what I should be doing, but in general I know who is in charge and am constantly amazed how things are quietly falling into place behind the scenes for those that are truly seeking to be "united" around true principles.
We all still need to find our individual inspiration, but I really feel you are on to something in your discussion about a "good woman" being able to run a small farm. Good stuff.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have been lucky enough the past few months to get a new job (that pays me more) and still move to a small little town about 15 miles away from where I work. I have a wife that sometimes struggles a little with my "awakening" that's happened over the past few years, but at the same time does her best to support me (and at the same time is becoming more and more confident in who she is and the talents she gained from growing up in a small community--gardening being the main one). We still struggle constantly with the ongoing battle between Zion and Babylon, but still feel very blessed in what has been presented to us as we have tried harder to follow the principles of freedom that we been better learning the past few years. I hope I have enough time to "get to know" the other country folk and to be able to contribute to their community as things continue to unravel. Day to day I still struggle with what I should be doing, but in general I know who is in charge and am constantly amazed how things are quietly falling into place behind the scenes for those that are truly seeking to be "united" around true principles.
We all still need to find our individual inspiration, but I really feel you are on to something in your discussion about a "good woman" being able to run a small farm. Good stuff.
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Proud 2b Peculiar
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 5560
- Location: American Fork, Utah
Re: WHere you live?
We are in the city, but on the edge of it where it is mostly rural. The area is supposed to have a higher crime rate, but that seems to be just rumor. We are renting. Seems this area is not as popular, lots of vacant places, makes me feel good.
The Landlord gave us 1/2 an acre to garden this next year. Found out about winter crops that grow here, will be doing that for the first time.
Hope to have like minded people move into the vacant places, or they stay vacant.
The Landlord gave us 1/2 an acre to garden this next year. Found out about winter crops that grow here, will be doing that for the first time.
Hope to have like minded people move into the vacant places, or they stay vacant.
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Oldemandalton
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2226
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
Re: WHere you live?
I live in Las Vegas and have been trying to leave for years. With 1.5 million people here in this valley I would hate to see what would happen if society breaks down for one reason or another. We’re in the middle of a desert with no food or production to speak of. It wouldn’t take long for anarchy to overcome Las Vegas if we go through a long emergency. The economic collapse will hit hard here too. Who wants to gamble when they’ll have a hard time buying bread?
My family and I are preparing with food storage, have almost 1 yr supply, water storage, camping equipment, and reliable vehicles to bug out with. I am also encouraging my kids and their families to do the same. I believe that God will let us know when it will be time to leave if we have not left on our own by then. The Saints who are left will still need leaders to help out the righteous poor, widows and single mothers still here when the feces hits the fan. They will need worthy priesthood holders to help them and the other Ward and Stake members during the crises. I am teaching my boys the importance of following the Lord and to magnify their Priesthood. They will be the future leaders to get us through the calamities that are soon to be upon us.
My family and I are preparing with food storage, have almost 1 yr supply, water storage, camping equipment, and reliable vehicles to bug out with. I am also encouraging my kids and their families to do the same. I believe that God will let us know when it will be time to leave if we have not left on our own by then. The Saints who are left will still need leaders to help out the righteous poor, widows and single mothers still here when the feces hits the fan. They will need worthy priesthood holders to help them and the other Ward and Stake members during the crises. I am teaching my boys the importance of following the Lord and to magnify their Priesthood. They will be the future leaders to get us through the calamities that are soon to be upon us.
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moving2zion
- captain of 100
- Posts: 552
Re: WHere you live?
I wanted to bring this thread back from the dead,
We had a ranch in Eastern, UT for a few years. Sold it to one of my subordinates when I retired from the Army. Now we have a smaller ranch in Eastern Washington with solar, wind and fire! Great place to take care of the in-laws in their golden years. Plenty of space for kids and cattle and no one told me to stay inside during the wuflu.
Does anyone out there no if COL Flag is still alive or reachable for that matter?
We had a ranch in Eastern, UT for a few years. Sold it to one of my subordinates when I retired from the Army. Now we have a smaller ranch in Eastern Washington with solar, wind and fire! Great place to take care of the in-laws in their golden years. Plenty of space for kids and cattle and no one told me to stay inside during the wuflu.
Does anyone out there no if COL Flag is still alive or reachable for that matter?
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BeNotDeceived
- Agent38
- Posts: 9058
- Location: Tralfamadore
- Contact:
Re: WHere you live?
Currently, I reside near the site of me strange photo at march8miracle.orgmoving2zion wrote: ↑October 25th, 2022, 9:11 pm I wanted to bring this thread back from the dead,
We had a ranch in Eastern, UT for a few years. Sold it to one of my subordinates when I retired from the Army. Now we have a smaller ranch in Eastern Washington with solar, wind and fire! Great place to take care of the in-laws in their golden years. Plenty of space for kids and cattle and no one told me to stay inside during the wuflu.
Does anyone out there no if COL Flag is still alive or reachable for that matter?
I couldn't resist getting a PO Box on 38th street in zipcode 73008.
3*8**
