Senator McCain dead at 81

[larsenb]

Oh for Pete's sake... I don't care if you think he was a rat while he was alive or not, can we NOT spend every thread about someone's death pigeon holing their memory with negativity or conspiracy theories that make a mockery of this man?

Senator McCain is not alive right now, and as far as I am concerned he served our country honorably both as a war veteran and as a senator. I may not have agreed with him on his policies or political standpoint, but he has always had some measure of respect from me. I don't care what dirt you may think you have on him, this is not the time nor the place to discuss that nonsense. He spent 4 years in a metal box and at least 1 year fighting brain cancer (while STILL serving as a senator) for heaven's sake, that is gonna take its toll on anyone... and who knows what else he went through between his time in Vietnam and his death. The man deserves honor and respect for his military and political service, especially since neither being a Vietnam POW nor a Senator are easy positions.

It's just kind of jarring to many people to see the man so eulogized with such incredible hyperbole . . . especially to Viet Vets who have been following his career and who have seen how he has been able to represent himself. Mitt Romney outdid himself in his absolutely fulsome praise of the man.

And regarding my views, they are informed by many eyewitnesses to his behaviour while in captivity, as well as by articles such as the one I cited in my last post.

I obviously don't much like the man . . . whether alive or dead. I don't hate the man. I'm just puzzled and consternated by him . . . including his neocon/globalist politics. He's actually done a LOT of damage . . . . truth to tell.

[larsenb]

. . . . Durzan, What if the truth about Cain or Lamech were never told? How would that have shaped our knowledge about the secret combinations recorded in scripture, prophesied, and in more modern times warned explicitly about over the pulpit? What would have happened if the actions, plans, and thought of Hitler were hushed up at the end of World War 2, and instead praise and honor, given with all the negative stuff swept under the rug because he was now dead? Another holocaust would inevitable occur sooner rather than later.

The problem with not exposing the truth that we might know, is that it then becomes next to impossible to warn someone else who does not have first hand knowledge because it is so completely outside the "safe zone" of their worldview or paradigm. People cannot believe without some evidence. In order to not have these things made known unto us by the evil actions that sound louder than words in our ears, we MUST warn others about the secret combinations and their plans, actions, M.O., players, and structure. That is what the Lord tells us in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Now I am not past feeling that I don't have any sympathy for P.O.W.s and their suffering. My own dad was a Prisoner Of War for all of World War 2. On the contrary, I feel that if my father's pre-war secret mission results and warning were heeded and passed to the correct people many lives would have been spared at Pearl Harbor and our readiness would have been much greater. So, because Roosevelt wanted to enter the war, and actively hid and suppressed important warnings of the attack, and ordered a stand down posture, many died, many more suffered, all because of a conspiracy between the leaders of countries. Most of that information was hushed up, history re-written, and poo pooed. Does that serve the memory of those that died? No, this must not happen again. Truth must be revealed despite whomever it may reflect upon.

Right on the money. Thanks. Especially interesting are your hints about your dad's experiences.

[Elizabeth]

FYI, I am in my early twenties, so I am in the 20 to 24 age group.

Oh for Pete's sake... I don't care if you think he was a rat while he was alive or not, can we NOT spend every thread about someone's death pigeon holing their memory with negativity or conspiracy theories that make a mockery of this man?

Senator McCain is not alive right now, and as far as I am concerned he served our country honorably both as a war veteran and as a senator. I may not have agreed with him on his policies or political standpoint, but he has always had some measure of respect from me. I don't care what dirt you may think you have on him, this is not the time nor the place to discuss that nonsense. He spent 4 years in a metal box and at least 1 year fighting brain cancer (while STILL serving as a senator) for heaven's sake, that is gonna take its toll on anyone... and who knows what else he went through between his time in Vietnam and his death. The man deserves honor and respect for his military and political service, especially since neither being a Vietnam POW nor a Senator are easy positions.

[larsenb]

Senator McCain has had a lot of influence in the shaping of America. I consider it important that as much as possible is known about the man, good and bad. He was one of the three representatives I have had in the US Congress; McCain, Flake, and Sinema. All three promoted and supported actions which I consider detrimental to our constitutional republic; to our rights to life, liberty, and control of property. I want the truth out so that I and other Americans may know what they have done to us. I have been watching McCain as closely as I can for close to twenty years. The media has made it very difficult to do. I cannot say that I know for sure, but I strongly suspect/feel that McCain was a globalist; one among many latter-day gadiantons in the U.S. FedGov. We have in Arizona a retired USAF flyer (weapons officer) who was also a guest at the Hanoi Hilton; over 7 years in capitivity. He detests McCain to this day for his conduct in captivity.

Amen. Thanks. I think McCain can be characterized as being a card-carrying member of the Neocon wing of the 'globalist' movement.

Here is a presidential campaign speech given to the World Affairs Council in Los Angeles in 2008. It is a reasonably sounding speech but at the same time, rife w/neocon/globalist overtones: http://www.channelingreality.com/Docume ... ouncil.pdf

Here is a recap of his speech on March 24th, 2017, to a Brussels economic forum organized by a think tank, where his globalist sentiments are more obvious and clear, to include an absolute support for a strong EU. Title: Globalist John McCain Forewarns the “New World Order Under Enormous Strain”. At: http://www.independentsentinel.com/glob ... us-strain/

Here is a speech he gave in Feb. 2017 in Munich, Germany, to the European Security Summit, where he blasts Trump for his "world view and brand of nationalism", posted at: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/0 ... ism-video/

Here is a video of the speech:

Actually a fairly impassioned, and I think, a well-meaning speech; in which he says some of the same things that Trump has been saying, though he indirectly slams Trump. And he also mentions that many of speeches that had been or would be given by Trump officials at the meeting reafirm that America will hold up its commitment to its leadership role in the world. He does use the term 'world order' several times, but you get the sense that he simply means the order that has produced the prosperity and liberty we have enjoyed for the last 70 years or so.

That said, he does come across as someone who suffers from at least a mild form of TDS w/tinges of a SJW complex. But the speech did soften me towards him.

[larsenb]

See what AJ has to say about John McCain's history, posted by dconrad000 here: "While the establishment lauds him as a hero, history and facts tell a different tale": viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9823&start=6720#p879299

[Elizabeth]

Vietnam was a disaster not only for the US but also for Australia. Our stupid politicians followed and supported the US.. all the way with LBJ, was their catch cry. Young Australians were forced by conscription to go to Vietnam. The result being their horrific suffering, exposure to drugs, and the drug trade and Vietnam immigrants coming to Australia.

[davedan]

Here is the recording that McCain did as a POW in Vietnam for the enemy. It is very brave that McCain flew missions into enemy territory and was shot down. It is also fortunate that McCain received adequate medical care in Hanoi for his several fractures (pictures of him with right arm in plaster cast). It is also understandable that a POW might make a recording like the one below. However, “heroic” it is NOT.

https://youtu.be/zO0mHEJyC3Y

Here is the US Code of Conduct:
CODE OF CONDUCT:
Article III:

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

Article IV:

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Article V:

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

[nightowl]

I never understood people liking this guy. He was a classic neocon. This tells me enough about his character that the left all the sudden are calling him a great man.

Here is the recording that McCain did as a POW in Vietnam for the enemy. It is very brave that McCain flew missions into enemy territory and was shot down. It is also fortunate that McCain received adequate medical care in Hanoi for his several fractures (pictures of him with right arm in plaster cast). It is also understandable that a POW might make a recording like the one below. However, “heroic” it is NOT.

https://youtu.be/zO0mHEJyC3Y

Here is the US Code of Conduct:
CODE OF CONDUCT:
Article III:

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

Article IV:

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Article V:

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

[ajax]

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2008/09/lau ... -criminal/

All wars are not created equal. An unjust war is criminal, and soldiers who participate in it are murderers. No North Vietnamese gook (McCain referred to them as gooks in a U.S. News & World Report interview in 1973) had ever posed a threat to the United States or harmed an American until the United States intervened with military advisors, military aid, the CIA, intelligence missions, puppet governments, and finally, U.S. troops — thousands and thousands of U.S. troops.

How could John McCain possibly be considered a war hero? He was not captured, imprisoned, and tortured because he was defending U.S. soil against invading enemy forces. Had this been the case, I would be the first one to congratulate him as a war hero. McCain is a war criminal because he rained down death and destruction on the people of Vietnam during twenty-three bombing missions. It doesn’t matter if the “incident” in the Gulf of Tonkin really happened — U.S. ships had no business being within a thousand miles of North or South Vietnam. There can be no heroism in the performance of evil. If McCain had been executed by the Vietnamese after being shot down, would he not have deserved it? What would you do to the pilot who just ejected and landed in your backyard after bombing your house? Why is it that war criminals are always foreigners? If McCain is a war hero then so are the September 11th hijackers. At least they had a reason to attack the United States. The real American heroes are the men who refused to go to Vietnam and participate in an immoral, unconstitutional, and unjust war. U.S. soldiers who refuse to deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan because it is another immoral, unconstitutional, and unjust war (not just because they don’t want to get killed) are real heroes as well. In an interview with 60 Minutes in 1997, McCain mentioned the confession his North Vietnamese captors forced him to write: “I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. I intentionally bombed women and children.” The truth, of course, is that what McCain wrote under duress is actually an accurate statement. Although while in the Navy McCain earned the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart, and the Distinguished Flying Cross, there is one designation he earned that he doesn’t wear on his chest: WAR CRIMINAL.

[ajax]

What the McCain Eulogies Tell Us About the Media and the Regime
By Tom Woods
August 27, 2018

John McCain is dead.

People tell me I should not criticize him right now.

I do think some people are behaving in bad taste. But I do not think I am prohibited from making sober remarks at a moment when so many Americans, and the opinion molders who tell them what to think, are getting ludicrously carried away.

The phenomenon we are witnessing is so Orwellian that I can’t resist exploring it. I am less concerned with criticizing McCain — there will be ample time for that — than I am with trying to understand the regime under which we live, and the media lackeys that glorify it.

The tributes to McCain from the major newspapers are so over the top that there’s something more going on here than the perfunctory respect the media shows for most deceased politicians.

They will not be speaking this way about Pat Buchanan — a real maverick, who was the first conservative I ever saw who broke with both parties (that’s what a maverick does) to point out that the sanctions on Iraq were creating a humanitarian catastrophe that no moral person could support (that’s what an actual conservative says).

As if to show that she has every Establishment ritual already down to a science, even democratic socialist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez took to Twitter to say this:

John McCain’s legacy represents an unparalleled example of human decency and American service.

As an intern, I learned a lot about the power of humanity in government through his deep friendship with Sen. Kennedy.

He meant so much, to so many. My prayers are with his family.

“But she had to say something!” some say.

She had to say “an unparalleled example of human decency and American service”?

McCain’s bellicosity in foreign policy knew no bounds. A discussion of all the interventions he favored — every one of which would have intensified the problems it was allegedly to solve — would take all week.

To a conservative movement that knows nothing of its history, this makes McCain a great conservative statesman.

And to the American Establishment, bellicosity is not and has never been a deal breaker.

McCain’s preferred foreign policy has yielded death, displacement, and regional chaos on a massive scale, not to mention a huge shot in the arm to the very Islamic radicalism he assured us he was fighting against.

(McCain’s insistence on being involved in every Middle East conflict under the sun made him some hideous bedfellows, I might add, as when he met with members of the Northern Storm Brigade, which had handed American journalist Steven Sotloff over to ISIS for $25,000.)

We are to believe that McCain was a “maverick.”

This is because from time to time he joined forces with the Democrats, the left-wing side of the Establishment, in order to support a measure that just happened to win him media applause.

That’s our definition of a maverick now?

Ron Paul was a maverick.

He stood up to the entire Establishment, not just its left-wing incarnation, and its beloved institutions.

He cast the sole “no” vote in the House more than all other congressmen put together.

He opposed the Fed when no one else so much as mentioned it, much less criticized it.

He stood up to the empire — the whole rotten system, not just one particular intervention. He even got it through the thick heads of some conservatives that the bipartisan foreign policy consensus represented the very opposite of conservatism.

Will our gatekeepers of approved opinion have such kind words for Ron Paul? The question answers itself.

The last thing the regime and its kept media want is a genuine maverick, a true dissident who asks the questions we are supposed to keep to ourselves.

McCain loved the regime and the empire. At no time did he adopt a position that the New York Times or the Washington Post would consider a fundamental attack on the state.

And that is why they love him. He played by their rules.

They were thrilled to call him a “conservative,” all the better to police opinion in America: why, if you’re a conservative, we have this John McCain fellow for you!

McCain’s legacy lives on in every politician and journalist who jumps on every propaganda report to justify another round of bombing and destruction.

It lives on in every politician who, 15 years after another idiotic military intervention, finally admits it was a “mistake,” never apologizing to the people he smeared at the time who tried telling him it was a mistake and who predicted every obvious consequence that any damn fool should have known.

It lives on in a media that craves bipartisanship — but bipartisanship in the service of the state, and bipartisanship in which the left gets what it wants and the right gets a nice photo-op.

It lives on in the families who are missing children because of a war that McCain finally admitted had been a hideous mistake and a ludicrous expenditure of scarce resources.

McCain was a man of the state, in every fiber of his being. That is why they cheer him.

And that is why we must tell unpopular truths — about McCain, and the corrupt empire he served.

[Fiannan]

McCain’s preferred foreign policy has yielded death, displacement, and regional chaos on a massive scale, not to mention a huge shot in the arm to the very Islamic radicalism he assured us he was fighting against.

(McCain’s insistence on being involved in every Middle East conflict under the sun made him some hideous bedfellows, I might add, as when he met with members of the Northern Storm Brigade, which had handed American journalist Steven Sotloff over to ISIS for $25,000.)

Kissinger came up with the current foreign policy to keep control over a region by stirring up regional hostilities. When the Pan-Arab movement was trying to unify the Arab world, and its leaders did not discriminate against Christian Arabs in this endeavour, the US government became hyper-involved in sabotaging such efforts. Finally, in regards to the Palestinian issue, Assad (the father of Bashir) became angry at the USA and started problems that would lead to US casualties in Lebanon. But most importantly, Sunni Muslims began to see the advantages of suicide attacks, and when some clerics said it was spiritually okay, that was when we saw things break down. Eventually the US decided to take out Saddam when he was no longer useful as an American asset and that would lead to another former ally from Saudi Arabia to form terrorist (actually fund, he was rich after all) groups and then he went to another nation (Afghanistan) that the USA started a war in around 1979. And we all know the chaos that has followed and the virtual extermination or exile of almost every Christian in the region.

McCain will have to answer to his maker for all he has done to facilitate this. There are other members of the media and both political parties (including some Mormons) who could repent and stand for truth before they too meet their maker but I have my doubts many (in any) will. They like the taste of blood, metaphorically speaking...I hope.

[lundbaek]

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/p ... ck-on-pows

McCain On POWs
One would think that McCain’s nearly six years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam would have made him a natural to lead the effort to recover the POWs the Nixon Administration left behind. But alas, the “maverick” toed the government line: It had “no evidence” we left men there.
McCain fought tooth and nail against anyone who attempted to disclose the truth. And as The New American reported in its most recent print edition, quoting the late Vietnam war correspondent Sydney Schanberg, McCain was quite vicious about it when he served on the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs (“Evidence of POWs in Vietnam,” Sept. 3).
The evidence the committee gathered showed without doubt that at least 700 men were left behind in Vietnam. But McCain didn’t want to hear the truth.
Wrote Schanberg:
McCain has insisted again and again that all the evidence — documents, witnesses, satellite photos, two Pentagon chiefs’ sworn testimony, aborted rescue missions, ransom offers apparently scorned — has been woven together by unscrupulous deceivers to create an insidious and unpatriotic myth. He calls it the “bizarre rantings of the MIA hobbyists.” He has regularly vilified those who keep trying to pry out classified documents as “hoaxers,” “charlatans,” “conspiracy theorists,” and “dime-store Rambos.
As well, TNA reported, McCain “browbeat expert witnesses,” while family members who “pressed him to end the secrecy also have been treated to his legendary temper. He has screamed at them, insulted them, brought women to tears.”
When POW activist Dolores Alfond, of the National Alliance of Families, appeared before the committee, and cited iron-clad electronic intelligence that showed Americans alive in Vietnam in 1974, McCain, the “maverick,” showed up to pound her into the ground. Alfond’s brother, Victor Apodaca, was a Air Force pilot shot down over North Vietnam.
“McCain attended that committee hearing,” Schanberg wrote, “specifically to confront Alfond because of her criticism of the panel’s work.”
He bellowed and berated her for quite a while. His face turning anger-pink, he accused her of “denigrating” his “patriotism.” The bullying had its effect — she began to cry.
After a pause Alfond recovered and tried to respond to his scorching tirade, but McCain simply turned away and stormed out of the room.
And that wasn’t the only time McCain erupted in a furious rage. McClatchy Newspapers reported McCain’s angry outburst four years after he went after Alfond.
[At the Alliance’s] Washington conference, about 25 members went to a Senate office building, hoping to meet with McCain. As they stood in the hall, McCain and an aide walked by.
Six people present have written statements describing what they saw. According to the accounts, McCain waved his hand to shoo away Jeannette Jenkins, whose cousin was last seen in South Vietnam in 1970, causing her to hit a wall.
As McCain continued walking, Jane Duke Gaylor, the mother of another missing serviceman, approached the senator. Gaylor, in a wheelchair equipped with portable oxygen, stretched her arms toward McCain.
“McCain stopped, glared at her, raised his left arm ready to strike her, composed himself and pushed the wheelchair away from him,” according to Eleanor Apodaca, the sister of an Air Force captain missing since 1967.

[larsenb]

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2008/09/lau ... -criminal/

. . . . . . If McCain is a war hero then so are the September 11th hijackers. At least they had a reason to attack the United States. The real .

I agree with this piece, except for this comment. The 9/11 'hijackers' played no role in actually bringing down the 3 WTC towers, etc.

[larsenb]

Vietnam was a disaster not only for the US but also for Australia. Our stupid politicians followed and supported the US.. all the way with LBJ, was their catch cry. Young Australians were forced by conscription to go to Vietnam. The result being their horrific suffering, exposure to drugs, and the drug trade and Vietnam immigrants coming to Australia.

I was essentially a 'remf' in Vietnam, but did serve on our green line and was a minor participant against the largest ground attack mounted against a US base in 1969. But one of the most gripping narrations I've ever heard was when we listened to a bunch of Aussies describe their experiences in a hot firefight, they had just returned from. Riveting . . wide eyed w/sweat was dripping from their brows as they told it.

[gardener4life]

One way or another Vietnam, Korea, and other conflicts happened to open the door for the Gospel to be preached in those lands. This is fact.

So, I think it's kind of pointless to think that we could have avoided a conflict in Vietnam. Every generation has spiritual and physical conflicts because this world is deciding if they will stay true to the Gospel, and if they will choose the Savior all over again just like they did in the pre-existence, and what kind of person they will be or won't be because of accepting or not accepting the help of the Savior; and also this dispensation every generation is deciding battles of the Restoration to fulfill the ultimate dream of Daniel's where the stone of the Gospel goes throughout the world growing as moves along until it becomes like an unstoppable mountain.

Every generation has its battles different than the generation before. There is no way to escape this. This is part of the fight for the Restoration and for retaining religious freedom. There is no rose colored glasses world where there isn't going to be any conflicts or that things can be won without sticking up for oneself and our faith in Christ. The enemy isn't going to let it happen without a fight. He will oppose every work we attempt with the Saviour, so thinking there won't be problems, adversity, or conflicts is silly.

Some areas and lands in the world, aren't going to willingly accept the gospel being preached in them, and that's why eventually something will happen there to allow it to happen in other ways that seem strange to us. So the talk of going after veterans, or claiming we shouldn't have done the war in Vietnam really only undermines this concept. It was inevitable that a collision of wills would occur not only about freedom of religion but about what kind of government the Vietnamese wanted for themselves. If we hadn't gone in Vietnam they still would have had a war among themselves. Ho Chi Minh was a dynamic force moving through his country and on the other side were other forces...even without the US involved. The war didn't go well because Ho Chi Minh's side was more committed.

But regardless, the there will be conflicts to gain freedom of religion in the world. This is the only way some areas will be opened.

People are so obsessed with finding fault with leaders that I think we're missing the point; the gospel needs to be preached in all the world.

Now I also see a great many people praising Mr. McCain for his efforts. But quite honestly the last years of his life showed him tearing down rightfully elected government instead of building it up and supporting it. And he made no effort to hide that he wished he was the president instead of the rightfully elected president. A lot of what he did was wrong. He is no hero. And serving in the armed forces doesn't give him the right to be involved with groups that were overthrowing the rightfully elected president.

[markharr]

One of his houses.



Not bad for a Senator's salary.

[larsenb]

I finally got one of my comments printed in DesNews on an article they had written about him. Here is the article: 'The very pinnacle of American virtue': Utahns react to John McCain's death at 81: at: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... at-81.html .

My two comments ( https://www.deseretnews.com/user/commen ... at-81.html ):

blarsen - BOUNTIFUL, UT
Aug. 27, 2018 1:34 p.m.

‘Flashback - Kearns, UT’, ‘AT - Elk River, MN’ and a few others are exactly right. What is being ignored is the role McCain played in squelching/ignoring evidence that there were POW’s/MIA’s left behind in Vietnam.

I’m a Vietnam veteran. For me this is a horrible blemish on the man’s record. I can’t think of anything worse for any POW. Why McCain took the actions in this matter as he did, is unfathomable to me.

In 1993, a researcher from Harvard, Stephen Morris, found a transcript in Russian archives of General Quang telling the Hanoi politburo that out of 1,205 US prisoners being held, many would be held back to use as bargaining chips to ensure reparations from the US.

Sgt. Maj. Eric Haney, who had participated in 2 aborted attempts to recover held-back POW’s in 1981-82, spoke to highly placed former member of the NVA who asked him: “Why did the Americans never attempt to recover their remaining POW’s after conclusion of the war?”

McCain’s role in squelching the last attempts to do this were unconscionable. Ref: McCain and the POW cover-up, by Sydney H. Schanberg, Pulitzer Prize winner. It appeared in the Nation, 2008, and expanded later in the Nation Institute.

and:

blarsen - BOUNTIFUL, UT
Aug. 27, 2018 2:28 p.m.

casual observer - Salt Lake City, UT, you need to research what many of his fellow prisoners thought and still think of McCain. [Their name for him was: 'the songbird', though they didn't like the song he sang.] McCain, to his credit, did express regret in his memoirs over his collaboration w/the NVA while in captivity. He was deathly afraid that his Admiral father would find out about it.

Some of this is dealt with in the article I referenced in my last comment. It's a fairly long article, but easily found by an internet search.

[larsenb]

Here are Mitt Romney's two fulsome twitter entries praising McCain. Some of you may want to get out your barf bags:

The first (see: https://twitter.com/MittRomney ):

No man this century better exemplifies honor, patriotism, service, sacrifice, and country first than Senator John McCain. His heroism inspires, his life shapes our character. I am blessed and humbled by our friendship.

The second (image form):

mitt-mccain.JPG (83.49 KiB) Viewed 924 times

[Joel]

[larsenb]

One way or another Vietnam, Korea, and other conflicts happened to open the door for the Gospel to be preached in those lands. This is fact.

So, I think it's kind of pointless to think that we could have avoided a conflict in Vietnam. Every generation has spiritual and physical conflicts because this world is deciding if they will stay true to the Gospel, and if they will choose the Savior all over again just like they did in the pre-existence, and what kind of person they will be or won't be because of accepting or not accepting the help of the Savior; and also this dispensation every generation is deciding battles of the Restoration to fulfill the ultimate dream of Daniel's where the stone of the Gospel goes throughout the world growing as moves along until it becomes like an unstoppable mountain.

Every generation has its battles different than the generation before. There is no way to escape this. This is part of the fight for the Restoration and for retaining religious freedom. There is no rose colored glasses world where there isn't going to be any conflicts or that things can be won without sticking up for oneself and our faith in Christ. The enemy isn't going to let it happen without a fight. He will oppose every work we attempt with the Saviour, so thinking there won't be problems, adversity, or conflicts is silly.

Some areas and lands in the world, aren't going to willingly accept the gospel being preached in them, and that's why eventually something will happen there to allow it to happen in other ways that seem strange to us. So the talk of going after veterans, or claiming we shouldn't have done the war in Vietnam really only undermines this concept. It was inevitable that a collision of wills would occur not only about freedom of religion but about what kind of government the Vietnamese wanted for themselves. If we hadn't gone in Vietnam they still would have had a war among themselves. Ho Chi Minh was a dynamic force moving through his country and on the other side were other forces...even without the US involved. The war didn't go well because Ho Chi Minh's side was more committed.

But regardless, the there will be conflicts to gain freedom of religion in the world. This is the only way some areas will be opened.

People are so obsessed with finding fault with leaders that I think we're missing the point; the gospel needs to be preached in all the world.

Now I also see a great many people praising Mr. McCain for his efforts. But quite honestly the last years of his life showed him tearing down rightfully elected government instead of building it up and supporting it. And he made no effort to hide that he wished he was the president instead of the rightfully elected president. A lot of what he did was wrong. He is no hero. And serving in the armed forces doesn't give him the right to be involved with groups that were overthrowing the rightfully elected president.

I think its more logical to say that the Lord will use the circumstances that are, to further His plans. This does not mean that He favors unjust wars, or that He allows wars because they 'open up a country' for the gospel.

I first met the man who was probably the first Vietnamese national convert in a small branch building on BIen Hoa airbase, and just after we had had a massive rocket/mortar attack. A building just across the street had been destroyed. After knowing him in this setting, I was surprised to meet him at a Vietnamese refugee gathering in SLC in the mid-'80's. Now there is undoubtedly conversion efforts going on w/the refugee community and families, but there was never an official mission in Vietenam that I'm aware of, and probably not in the near future.

Otherwise, can't disagree much w/your post.

[gardener4life]

Well you did word some aspects better than I did. Thank you for that. I was grateful for your words. I see we have a lot in common.

What's exciting is that there is Vietnamese branches and wards popping up in several urban areas in the US. I've been to some of them, and I've seen family members related by marriage join the church that were from the areas near Hue, which is in central Vietnam. I've been to the Vietnamese word in Little Saigon in California...which is growing steadily. There is a branch in Georgia, Salt Lake City, and I think Seattle (?), and a few other places.

Vietnam opened up officially for the Gospel about a year or two ago and its a very inspiring miracle to many people who had been hoping for it.

Also in a meeting in church in California, people there were told there would in the future be Vietnamese branches all over the west coast. (This part hasn't happened yet.)

I do agree that things could have been done better in the Vietnam War. But I do hope veterans know their sacrifices mean something. My neighbor just died and had served in the Korean War. Many people like him, I don't think they ever saw that the fruit of their sacrifices is that Vietnam just opened, and that Korea and the Phillipines are the bastions of Christianity in Asia that are the only two countries with Christianity over 10%. Korea and Phillipines have really high percentages of Christianity which is so amazing considering that most of Asia is less than 4% Christian. I think that guy would want to know what a difference that makes that we went in there. (And now investment and business is going to Vietname...some of that will be corrupt business...we can't help it, but it will open the door for Christianity in the process...and for LDS.)

And this background of Christianity helps so much. The backgrounds of Buddhism, Shintoism, and the religions of India, and the Middle East are just so very, freaking hard to bridge the gap to get to the Restoration when you first have to spend tons of time comprehending that there's a Heavenly Father first.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/church- ... m?lang=eng

I had been over to Vietnam a few times and they are very nice people. I felt like meeting some of them...this person would make a great member of the church. (You still need to be careful with many of them but you have to do that with people everywhere.)

When you actually are worrying about people that live in a place then having the Gospel open up there becomes something wonderful to wish for and you don't take it for granted.

I wish I could encourage the mainstream Americans and LDS people to wake up. We're taking so much for granted. We're throwing away and taking for granted blessings that others have waited for for centuries that still haven't been given to them. In Vietnamese they barely got the triple combination assembled fully in 1981. They also recently got the hymns, the liahona, and the Gospel Principles book but they don't have all the wonderful treasures of knowledge that we've been given.

And we're throwing it away to legalize things we shouldn't (Prop 2) while others would risk death to have what we have.

It used to be about 10+ years ago there were 3 branches in Vietname...or was it 2 I forgot which and they were mostly people who were Americans working abroad. They secretly would sometimes find people interested in the church, and those people had to risk crossing a mine field to get to Cambodia to be baptized.

[Joel]

days gone by

[Joel]

[larsenb]

Dang, Joel, I had just written a reply to gardener4life and was saving it, but apparently your saving your last post blew out my effort. I'll make another stab at it . . .. later.

[Joel]

an older meme