The tide is turning...

[Lizzy60]

From Susie Augenstein's new FB page called Let's Love Better where she has compiled her stories about LDS LGBTQ people and their life journeys:

"I met a man very soon after that. I thought it was a sign from God that I should marry in the temple. We were engaged 2 months later, and married 4 months after that. We moved to Salt Lake (again) for him to attend the University of Utah. I realized I was gay, not bisexual. I cried almost every single day. I felt happy for maybe the first few days, thinking that I did the right thing by getting married in the temple. I felt so trapped in a relationship that I felt no happiness in. There was more going on than just my lack of physical attraction, and in a way, I felt betrayed that God hadn’t “fixed” me. I prayed, read my scriptures, and went to the temple as often as I could. I was depressed and seriously considered suicide. I read the entire mormonandgay website the day it came out. I read every article on lds.org that had to do with being gay. I consulted with my bishop, and a marriage counselor. My bishop said to me, “There is nothing wrong with accepting and loving yourself as God made you.” The marriage counselor he referred me to, who is also LDS, told me, “The church needs to realize that there is nothing wrong with a lesbian couple who want to raise kids, even in the church. If that’s where your heart is, that’s where you should be.” That advice was relieving and heartbreaking. I didn’t know what to do. I was not happy in my marriage, and I didn’t think I would be happy outside of the church. Suicide still seemed like the best way to be free from the hell I felt trapped in. Three and a half months after we were married, we decided to split."

That's just part of this woman's story, and I'm posting this to show what advice she claims to have received from her Bishop and LDS marriage counselor. I agree that a divorce was probably best in her situation, but both these men went against current Church teaching about living in a gay relationship. She is now living with her girlfriend, and planning a family.

Their counsel may have "saved" her from suicide, but what has their acceptance of her embracing her gayness (no counsel about repentance) done for her eternal soul?

Does the Church know that LDS marriage counselors are saying the Church needs to adopt the gay-marriage-with-children agenda?

Edit to add -- this is a public FB page and they want these stories shared, so I feel okay about cross-posting part of it here. Also, my comments are about the advice from her Bishop and LDS marriage counselor, and not to criticize her choices, except that she wants the church to fully embrace gay marriage because she really misses attending the temple.

[gardener4life]

You brought up some valid concerns.

We are going to see historians, counselors, psychiatrists, and especially entertainers turn on us before any of the others. They are already doing this. Entertainers split this movement wide open in front of everyone by using their image to gain favor, and they'd jumped in because it was profitable for them to do so. (Why we should all learn to work while young, so we don't have to betray our values...) The family therapists and those in counseling will naturally be also at the forefront of accepting this type of behavior.

Church historians can be tricky. They act like they are with the church but if you think about it, church history is a field where people can cry out what they perceive as fact and use as borrowed authority quite easily. This is why this branch of the church can be slightly dangerous at times because historians tend to get caught up in their own self imposed historian authority and mistakenly think it trumps current priesthood leader authority. And historians in church arguments will easily claim they have a right to unchecked authority sometimes because of historical claimed facts.

So...yes, we need a current and living testimony in our days. Don't rely on other members anymore. The church if completely full of confused people right now. And these people are speaking out and sometimes doing accidental or purposeful harm. Some of them believe they are justified to change doctrine even though they are not in the right to do so. Being members of Jesus' true church doesn't give us permission to overwrite his will for the church or to change things.

I have felt the spirit warning and helping me about certain things in the scriptures the last few months. Primarily, I have felt the story of Enos burning like fire in my mind and heart. The story of Enos and his wrestle with God and others like it in the scriptures show that we can't write off rules, personal worthiness, obedience, faith, and repentance. We just can't. All of these are connected. Faith, is like the left foot with repentance being the right foot. Obedience and personal worthiness are the armor in every dispensation of the standards of God.

If we just toss those out all the sudden, we won't have a leg to stand on. But people aren't living the gospel or even thinking about it. Their lives are getting busier and busier and its harder for them to think about what's right. SO they are forgetting God and why we're doing all this and then Satan stanches them up in temptations. They then feel justified in trying to cry out, 'I've been a member my whole life, why should I have to repent?'

We are a turning point I agree.

I would invite everyone to especially stay close to the basic foundation principles of the Gospel taught in the scriptures. These are covered in great detail in the Gospel Principles class in your ward. This is a great class and everyone should look up to it. It's a mistake to think this class is only for new members or converts. All the issues in society and what's bringing down our civilization are covered in the foundation steps of Gospel Principles.

But will we have the courage to follow them is the question...

[ElizaRSkousen]

I was just talking to my husband about how therapists seem to be such a driving, enabling force now days! In many areas, not just this issue.

[shadow]

I have a sis-in-law who is a counselor and she is pro gay also, and a BYU grad. She's still active in the church although she stopped wearing her garments. Just to clarify- she's LDS but not LDS employed. The story above from Lizzy doesn't clarify if the counselor is actually employed by the church or not but these days it wouldn't surprise me to find out he/she works for LDS social services.

[Arenera]

If you take 100 gay people, how many will be celibate and stay active in the Church?

I think you are concerned that the Church will change, I don't see that happening.

[Juliet]

You brought up some valid concerns.

We are going to see historians, counselors, psychiatrists, and especially entertainers turn on us before any of the others. They are already doing this. Entertainers split this movement wide open in front of everyone by using their image to gain favor, and they'd jumped in because it was profitable for them to do so. (Why we should all learn to work while young, so we don't have to betray our values...) The family therapists and those in counseling will naturally be also at the forefront of accepting this type of behavior.

Church historians can be tricky. They act like they are with the church but if you think about it, church history is a field where people can cry out what they perceive as fact and use as borrowed authority quite easily. This is why this branch of the church can be slightly dangerous at times because historians tend to get caught up in their own self imposed historian authority and mistakenly think it trumps current priesthood leader authority. And historians in church arguments will easily claim they have a right to unchecked authority sometimes because of historical claimed facts.

So...yes, we need a current and living testimony in our days. Don't rely on other members anymore. The church if completely full of confused people right now. And these people are speaking out and sometimes doing accidental or purposeful harm. Some of them believe they are justified to change doctrine even though they are not in the right to do so. Being members of Jesus' true church doesn't give us permission to overwrite his will for the church or to change things.

I have felt the spirit warning and helping me about certain things in the scriptures the last few months. Primarily, I have felt the story of Enos burning like fire in my mind and heart. The story of Enos and his wrestle with God and others like it in the scriptures show that we can't write off rules, personal worthiness, obedience, faith, and repentance. We just can't. All of these are connected. Faith, is like the left foot with repentance being the right foot. Obedience and personal worthiness are the armor in every dispensation of the standards of God.

If we just toss those out all the sudden, we won't have a leg to stand on. But people aren't living the gospel or even thinking about it. Their lives are getting busier and busier and its harder for them to think about what's right. SO they are forgetting God and why we're doing all this and then Satan stanches them up in temptations. They then feel justified in trying to cry out, 'I've been a member my whole life, why should I have to repent?'

We are a turning point I agree.

I would invite everyone to especially stay close to the basic foundation principles of the Gospel taught in the scriptures. These are covered in great detail in the Gospel Principles class in your ward. This is a great class and everyone should look up to it. It's a mistake to think this class is only for new members or converts. All the issues in society and what's bringing down our civilization are covered in the foundation steps of Gospel Principles.

But will we have the courage to follow them is the question...

I love your point about wrestling like Enos did. Even Jesus wrestled with the Father. Three times He asked for the cup to be removed before He said "Thy will be done". I have been thinking today also about what I have personally wrestled with in my prayers. I have desired to get that point of giving up my will, yet my will has not been able to do it.

So today I remembered that Jesus also wrestled and had to give up His will to the Father, whose ways and thoughts are higher than ours.

I am beginning to think that the cornerstone of a life turning right or wrong has to do with how much you trust your Maker. Because if that trust is broken, then there is no way you can accomplish your mission because it will require submitting to everything the Father sees fit to inflict upon us. In this circumstance, trust can quickly turn to betrayal and rebellion agaisnt God's will. And all because we can't see the way God can see. So, we have to trust God loves us to give us courage to do His will even when it is hard.

[nightlight]

If you take 100 gay people, how many will be celibate and stay active in the Church?

I think you are concerned that the Church will change, I don't see that happening.

What do you think of the OP?

[Arenera]

If you take 100 gay people, how many will be celibate and stay active in the Church?

I think you are concerned that the Church will change, I don't see that happening.

What do you think of the OP?

If people want to be gay, they will.

What do you want to be done to gay people?

[nightlight]

If you take 100 gay people, how many will be celibate and stay active in the Church?

I think you are concerned that the Church will change, I don't see that happening.

What do you think of the OP?

If people want to be gay, they will.

What do you want to be done to gay people?

Obviously.... What do YOU FEEL about the OP?

[Silver Pie]

You didn't ask me, but I think the bishop and the counselor did the right thing. She didn't kill herself, and as long as someone is alive, God can work with them however he will.

[Arenera]

If you take 100 gay people, how many will be celibate and stay active in the Church?

I think you are concerned that the Church will change, I don't see that happening.

What do you think of the OP?

If people want to be gay, they will.

What do you want to be done to gay people?

Obviously.... What do YOU FEEL about the OP?

Read Silver Pie’s post. What are your feelings?

[Alaris]

If you take 100 gay people, how many will be celibate and stay active in the Church?

I think you are concerned that the Church will change, I don't see that happening.

What do you think of the OP?

If people want to be gay, they will.

What do you want to be done to gay people?

If people want to obey the commandments, they will. That's the key here. Agency. The devil hates agency and wants to paint this picture that people are a victim of their desires which of course is counter-truth. We can either overcome our desires or be overcome by them. Whether it's porn, homosexuality, etc. - and the easiest way to overcome ... is by obeying the commandments. These stories are just that - elements can be left out, or twisted, etc. to put forth an agenda.

[JohnnyL]

You didn't ask me, but I think the bishop and the counselor did the right thing. She didn't kill herself, and as long as someone is alive, God can work with them however he will.

Are you saying God can't work with a person who commits suicide but without having committed sins next to murder?
Would it have been better for David, Solomon, and Hezekiah to die earlier? Don't we say it's better to die early, than to live and turn from God?
Just thoughts to fit in...
I don't know which one would be a better "outcome". I hope God could work with either. In what state of mind must a suicide be? It seems both would have things to repent of.

[nightlight]

What do you think of the OP?

If people want to be gay, they will.

What do you want to be done to gay people?

Obviously.... What do YOU FEEL about the OP?

Read Silver Pie’s post. What are your feelings?

I believe she received evil counsel. The same Spirit that temps her to live a homosexual lifestyle is the same Spirit that is trying to make her commit suicide. Satan is playing chess while men play checkers. She was lead into a trap... she no longer wants to kill herself because Satan is no longer using is God given power to make her want to because she submitted to him....she thinks she doesn't want to kill herself because she is being "true" to herself and living the gay lifestyle that she was "made" for....meanwhile Satan laughs.



24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
-------------""""""--------------------

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

[Arenera]

If people want to be gay, they will.

What do you want to be done to gay people?

Obviously.... What do YOU FEEL about the OP?

Read Silver Pie’s post. What are your feelings?

I believe she received evil counsel. The same Spirit that temps her to live a homosexual lifestyle is the same Spirit that is trying to make her commit suicide. Satan is playing chess while men play checkers. She was lead into a trap... she no longer wants to kill herself because Satan is no longer using is God given power to make her want to because she submitted to him....she thinks she doesn't want to kill herself because she is being "true" to herself and living the gay lifestyle that she was "made" for....meanwhile Satan laughs.



24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
-------------""""""--------------------

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

So those that practice gay are evil people.
If leaders accept that, they give evil counsel.

So it sounds like this group prefers gays kill themselves.

[shadow]

You didn't ask me, but I think the bishop and the counselor did the right thing. She didn't kill herself, and as long as someone is alive, God can work with them however he will.

I agree that it's good she's alive but I disagree that it's because of the lies she was told. The truth is what sets us sinners free.

Joseph Smith said it right when he said to teach correct principles and let people govern themselves. It isn't about being true to oneself, it's about being true to God by putting off the natural man. That means that sometimes we actually are NOT supposed to be true to ourselves (the natural man). There is no substitute.

[nightlight]

Obviously.... What do YOU FEEL about the OP?

Read Silver Pie’s post. What are your feelings?

I believe she received evil counsel. The same Spirit that temps her to live a homosexual lifestyle is the same Spirit that is trying to make her commit suicide. Satan is playing chess while men play checkers. She was lead into a trap... she no longer wants to kill herself because Satan is no longer using is God given power to make her want to because she submitted to him....she thinks she doesn't want to kill herself because she is being "true" to herself and living the gay lifestyle that she was "made" for....meanwhile Satan laughs.



24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
-------------""""""--------------------

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

So those that practice gay are evil people.
If leaders accept that, they give evil counsel.

So it sounds like this group prefers gays kill themselves.

Not so brother...I don't want anyone to kill themselves, that is a sick accusation. I want them to not live in sin, I want them to live for Christ.

[Arenera]

Not so brother...I don't want anyone to kill themselves, that is a sick accusation. I want them to not live in sin, I want them to live for Christ.

Ok, let’s see where y’all are coming from.

You consider being gay a horrendous sin.
You consider it a choice, and therefore a person can change from being gay.
If a gay person is a Latter-Day Saint, they can be celibate or if they practice, they should be excommunicated.
Leaders should tell gay Latter-Day Saints, they cannot practice or they will be excommunicated.
We don’t want practicing Gay in the Church, they are welcome to leave.
Our leaders need to communicate and enforce the “no practice” rule.

Is this about right?

[h_p]

You consider it a choice, and therefore a person can change from being gay.

This person apparently did:

I realized I was gay, not bisexual.

Or is it only possible to switch between one sexual deviancy and another?

I thought this was the ONE THING the leftist mob swears on everything unholy that it is absolutely immutable, established from birth, and how dare you even consider someone could actually stop being gay, you hater. And here we have someone who was obviously attracted to a man enough at one point to marry them, and now no longer. Somebody help me out here, I can't keep up with all these changing rules.

Edit: In case anybody tries to argue that this girl was never actually bisexual, she admits it herself. This is from the full Facebook post:

The first crush I remember having on a girl was the one I had on Naomi Watts when I was 12-ish and watched the Ring too many times. I didnt recognize it was a crush until years later. I didnt even realize that being gay was an option for me. I went all throughout high school, some college, and a mission having crushes on guys and not even having the thought of being gay was a possibility...

[Lizzy60]

Not so brother...I don't want anyone to kill themselves, that is a sick accusation. I want them to not live in sin, I want them to live for Christ.

Ok, let’s see where y’all are coming from.

You consider being gay a horrendous sin.
You consider it a choice, and therefore a person can change from being gay.
If a gay person is a Latter-Day Saint, they can be celibate or if they practice, they should be excommunicated.
Leaders should tell gay Latter-Day Saints, they cannot practice or they will be excommunicated.
We don’t want practicing Gay in the Church, they are welcome to leave.
Our leaders need to communicate and enforce the “no practice” rule.

Is this about right?

Yes. Exactly right.
Are we still excommunicating for adultery? Child molestation? Murder? Solicitation of a minor for sex? Why should we make an exception for people engaging in gay sex, or gay marriage?

[Rand]

The supposed statement from her counselor: “There is nothing wrong with accepting and loving yourself as God made you.”

Is a very suspect statement. Does anyone here think "God made you as you are", or did you come to be where you are from a combination of premortal choices you made and challenges you chose before you came here?

I don't believe that "God made her that way." The assumption that God "makes us" to be how we are is a prime card in playing the victim game.

[Finrock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbeLFG6Lglo

I used to think the world was flat Rarely threw my hat into the crowd I felt I had used up my quota of yearning Used to look in on the children at night In the glow of their Donald Duck light And frighten myself with the thought of my little ones burning But, oh, oh, oh, the tide is turning The tide is turning Satellite buzzing through the endless night Exclusive to moonshots and world title fights Jesus Christ imagine what it must be earning Who is the strongest Who is the best Who holds the aces The East Or the West This is the crap our children are learning But oh, oh, oh, the tide is turning The tide is turning Oh, oh, oh, the tide is turning Now the satellite's confused 'Cos on Saturday night The airwaves were full of compassion and light And his silicon heart warmed To the sight of a billion candles burning Oo, oo, oo, the tide is turning Oo, oo, oo, the tide is turning The tide is turning Billy I'm not saying that the battle is won But on Saturday night all those kids in the sun Wrested technology's sword from the hand of the war lords Oh, oh, oh, the tide is turning The tide is turning Sylvester The tide is turning

-Finrock

[Lizzy60]

Yes, Rand, you're right. We have a very long pre mortal history of growth, agency, and experience that is veiled from us. If we agree with the counselor, and others who are saying that LGBTQ are perfect just the way God made them, then we have also believe that God said, hey you, you're going to be Hitler, and you over there, you're going to be followers of Lucifer and you don't get to go to Earth, and y'all over there, you get to be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Boggles the imagination.

[shadow]

Yes, Rand, you're right. We have a very long pre mortal history of growth, agency, and experience that is veiled from us. If we agree with the counselor, and others who are saying that LGBTQ are perfect just the way God made them, then we have also believe that God said, hey you, you're going to be Hitler, and you over there, you're going to be followers of Lucifer and you don't get to go to Earth, and y'all over there, you get to be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Boggles the imagination.

It sure takes agency out of the equation.

[shadow]

Not so brother...I don't want anyone to kill themselves, that is a sick accusation. I want them to not live in sin, I want them to live for Christ.

Ok, let’s see where y’all are coming from.

You consider being gay a horrendous sin.
You consider it a choice, and therefore a person can change from being gay.
If a gay person is a Latter-Day Saint, they can be celibate or if they practice, they should be excommunicated.
Leaders should tell gay Latter-Day Saints, they cannot practice or they will be excommunicated.
We don’t want practicing Gay in the Church, they are welcome to leave.
Our leaders need to communicate and enforce the “no practice” rule.

Is this about right?

Yep.
It's like my old neighbor who was always having affairs. Too many to count, he said. Two of them were in my ward within 6 months of each other. He was finally ex'd and his wife finally told him to get. He was involved in 3 divorces just in my ward within a half year. And my Bishop got multiple phone calls from other Bishops about affairs he was involved in.
So just because he couldn't control his "natural" attraction to lots of women you seem to believe it's not his fault and is justified??

You're either sick or totally ignorant of the Gospel.

19 For the natural man (including gay) is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man (including gay) and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (gay), nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I think you're deceived, as Paul clearly stated, if you believe homosexuality isn't a sin.