LDS Freedom Forum

sandman45 wrote: ↑August 20th, 2018, 9:24 am

LukeAir2008 wrote: ↑August 19th, 2018, 8:53 am Quite ironic that the Church department which announces that ‘Mormon’ is no longer acceptable is ‘Mormon Newsroom’. Nothing quite like announcing your own irrelevance.

This ‘Lord’ who is guiding President Nelson seems to change his mind quite a lot. After years of going overboard on the use of ‘Mormon’ in everything the Church did - Mormon Newsroom, Mormon Channel, Mormon.org, I’m a Mormon campaign, Meet the Mormons movie etc etc. it’s all change again.

So this ‘Lord’, who doesn’t seem to be able to see very far into the future, now announces that he has made a huge mistake and now wants to dump the ‘Mormon’ thing and even the ‘LDS’ thing too.

Sounds to me like Church lawyers and Church PR men have decided that they could never get exclusive use of the nickname ‘Mormon’ and that unfortunately ‘Mormon’ refers to all churches and groups who trace their origins back to Joseph Smith and who accept the Book of Mormon as scripture.

Yeh, that’s the real reason.

What If President Nelson is listening to what the Lord wants and some of the previous prophets were not?

That was kinda sorta my thought.

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 9:19 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 8:22 pm Does anyone really suppose that a first-time reader of the Book of Mormon, not steeped in Mormonism, would come to any kind of conclusion that this section of Jacob 2 allows anyone to have more than one wife?

If they are aware of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament... Yes, they would.

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

There is only one way to create a human body... right?

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:34 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:15 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 9:19 pm

If they are aware of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament... Yes, they would.

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

No quantum leaping involved...no agenda needed

Jacob was preaching to an old testament people who had the Brass Plates,they were well aware of the Patriarchal practices of polygamy. Think Abraham, Isaac , Jacob.... This is no leap.

We have the brass plates in the form of the Old Testament, right? So, you believe that someone familiar with the Old Testament should be able to come to the conclusion that Jacob 2:30 permits polygamy.

We only have a portion of the Brass Plates... You have to read Jacob from their perspectives. They held Abraham and his son and grandson in the highest regards. They called themselves a"remant of jacob"... the twelve tribes and their names come from polygamist union of sister wives. God has throughout mans history has called for patriarchal practices of plural marriage to rasie up seed of special/holy bloodline.

But to answer your question...yes. If you are aware of the old testament, of the Patriarchal polygamist reality it contains...than yes, it the logical conclusion.

The Airbender wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:42 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 9:19 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 8:22 pm Does anyone really suppose that a first-time reader of the Book of Mormon, not steeped in Mormonism, would come to any kind of conclusion that this section of Jacob 2 allows anyone to have more than one wife?

If they are aware of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament... Yes, they would.

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

There is only one way to create a human body... right?

For us, yes. For God, no.

Here's from the Book of Mormon, the most true and correct book:


1 Nephi 11:13,15,18,20
13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
...
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

...

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

...

20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.


2 Nephi 17:14
14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


Alma 7:10
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.


So, Brigham denied all this virgin stuff because he knew better, being a devout polygamist.

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:53 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:34 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:15 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

No quantum leaping involved...no agenda needed

Jacob was preaching to an old testament people who had the Brass Plates,they were well aware of the Patriarchal practices of polygamy. Think Abraham, Isaac , Jacob.... This is no leap.

We have the brass plates in the form of the Old Testament, right? So, you believe that someone familiar with the Old Testament should be able to come to the conclusion that Jacob 2:30 permits polygamy.

We only have a portion of the Brass Plates... You have to read Jacob from their perspectives. They held Abraham and his son and grandson in the highest regards. They called themselves a"remant of jacob"... the twelve tribes and their names come from polygamist union of sister wives. God has throughout mans history has called for patriarchal practices of plural marriage to rasie up seed of special/holy bloodline.

But to answer your question...yes. If you are aware of the old testament, of the Patriarchal polygamist reality it contains...than yes, it the logical conclusion.

What you are saying here about their culture seems reasonable, but I can't see the room in Jacob 2:30 to make such an interpretation.

Chip wrote: ↑August 22nd, 2018, 12:00 am

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:53 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:34 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:15 pm

No quantum leaping involved...no agenda needed

Jacob was preaching to an old testament people who had the Brass Plates,they were well aware of the Patriarchal practices of polygamy. Think Abraham, Isaac , Jacob.... This is no leap.

We have the brass plates in the form of the Old Testament, right? So, you believe that someone familiar with the Old Testament should be able to come to the conclusion that Jacob 2:30 permits polygamy.

We only have a portion of the Brass Plates... You have to read Jacob from their perspectives. They held Abraham and his son and grandson in the highest regards. They called themselves a"remant of jacob"... the twelve tribes and their names come from polygamist union of sister wives. God has throughout mans history has called for patriarchal practices of plural marriage to rasie up seed of special/holy bloodline.

But to answer your question...yes. If you are aware of the old testament, of the Patriarchal polygamist reality it contains...than yes, it the logical conclusion.

What you are saying here about their culture seems reasonable, but I can't see the room in Jacob 2:30 to make such an interpretation.

Bro, I understand where you coming from...I have my own "doubtbergs" floating in my mind... but It's seems to me that you are hinging so much on this one chapter that you are interpreting different then the church. The reality is that that polygamy is a part of us, it brought forth the 12 tribes of Israel, it was practice by holy men who sit on the right hand of God, yes we see its abuse by men who took it too far (David,Solomon,maybe Brigham young) or men have no right to practice it. But you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

What is the fruit of your new found believe of plural marriage??? I testify to you that plural marriage has been called at times by God to the Patriarchs of His holy order. And unless he commands it of his servants, the default Institution is marriage between one man one woman. There is a reason why the Western modern world hates polygamy but loves all sorts of weird strange abomination... because Satan wants to keep them away from the restored gospel. Why do you think modern Christians condemned Joseph Smith for his multiple wives but excuse Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

The temple is restored, baptisms for the dead are real, Endowments are valid, Sealings are recorded on High. Don't lose this!!!

Some 'things' we probably will not know for sure until we find ourselves 'on the other side'.

WHY speculate?

Make the most of the Gospel of Jesus Christ by applying it in mortality, NOW!

Brothers and sisters,

I feel that stressing the name change is to prepare us for the fact that mainstream deep state evil infected America has eaten up and consumed the good America. The result is that good mother of gentiles America is consumed by deep state evil corporate America almost entirely with it dying. The image of America is now only of war. This means that Babylon is ready to fall, and we have to be ready for the day when our eternal identity of being a child of God and child of the restored Gospel may not necessarily include a nation behind it.

I think that part of the hymn book changes taking out country anthems may be part of this. The warring of the nations is growing and has infected and taken away the clean image of being an American. The corporations of the United States want to consume the other nations for resources. This makes claiming nationality as our first heritage unreliable compared to the reliability of the restored gospel. ('Corporations of the U.S. also represents a corrupted identity' similar to Deep State.)

We have to be ready for the day when we can only rely on the restored Gospel and Kingdom of God as our only reliable safe identity. We can have technology and other gifts taken away.

Think about this; (what do you see on TV?)

Mormon 2:18 And upon the plates of Nephi I did make a full account of all the wickedness and abominations; but upon these plates I did forbear to make a full account of their wickedness and abominations, for behold, a continual scene of wickedness and abominations has been before mine eyes ever since I have been sufficient to behold the ways of man. (the brainwashing of violent TV shows pushed by Satan to try to recreate an eternal state of war on the youth is to push them to one day be broken into violence. It's revealed in how Mormon and Moroni grew up resisting evil.)
19 And wo is me because of their wickedness; for my heart has been filled with sorrow because of their wickedness, all my days; nevertheless, I know that I shall be lifted up at the last day.
27 And my heart did sorrow because of this the great calamity of my people, because of their wickedness and their abominations. But behold, we did go forth against the Lamanites and the robbers of Gadianton, until we had again taken possession of the lands of our inheritance.

Mormon 1:19 And it came to pass that there were sorceries, and witchcrafts, and magics; and the power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land, even unto the fulfilling of all the words of Abinadi, and also Samuel the Lamanite. (Sorceries; drug hallucinations, drug seduction...witchcraft; immorality seduction...magic; soothsayers and the science of corruption of lies.)

Ether 2:11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

Ether 8:23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of bdestruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

(Isaiah 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! Put this verse with the Ether verses above...)

If the deep state identity of American symbolizes violence and murder to those that aren't from our country then we need more than ever to only claim the Gospel torch as our true identity.

2 Nephi 15:26

26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth; and behold, they shall come with speed swiftly; none shall be weary nor stumble among them.

Alma 51:20 And the remainder of those dissenters, rather than be smitten down to the earth by the sword, yielded to the standard of liberty, and were compelled to hoist the title of liberty upon their towers, and in their cities, and to take up arms in defence of their country.

Alma 46:18 And he said: Surely God shall not suffer that we, who are despised because we take upon us the name of Christ, shall be trodden down and destroyed, until we bring it upon us by our own transgressions.
20 Behold, whosoever will maintain this title upon the land, let them come forth in the strength of the Lord, and enter into a covenant that they will maintain their rights, and their religion, that the Lord God may bless them.

21 And it came to pass that when Moroni had proclaimed these words, behold, the people came running together with their armor girded about their loins, rending their garments in token, or as a covenant, that they would not forsake the Lord their God; or, in other words, if they should transgress the commandments of God, or fall into transgression, and be ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ, the Lord should rend them even as they had rent their garments.
22 Now this was the covenant which they made, and they cast their garments at the feet of Moroni, saying: We covenant with our God, that we shall be destroyed, even as our brethren in the land northward, if we shall fall into transgression; yea, he may cast us at the feet of our enemies, even as we have cast our garments at thy feet to be trodden under foot, if we shall fall into transgression.
23 Moroni said unto them: Behold, we are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; yea, we are a remnant of the seed of Joseph, whose coat was rent by his brethren into many pieces; yea, and now behold, let us remember to keep the commandments of God, or our garments shall be rent by our brethren, and we be cast into prison, or be sold, or be slain.
24 Yea, let us preserve our liberty as a remnant of Joseph; yea, let us remember the words of Jacob, before his death, for behold, he saw that a part of the remnant of the coat of Joseph was preserved and had not decayed. And he said—Even as this remnant of garment of my son hath been preserved, so shall a remnant of the seed of my son be preserved by the hand of God, and be taken unto himself, while the remainder of the seed of Joseph shall perish, even as the remnant of his garment.

True freedom is only held by religious freedom first and foremost. The true freedom of the Gospel holds up our eternal identity and our national identity. If the wicked separate from God and the protection of the protection of God's umbrella, then they will cut themselves off of a future. Our only remaining future will be the restored gospel.

Notice how similarities between emphasizing the new name ring and echo with the spirit about scriptures of the Ensign to the nations, the title of liberty, and the opening of the kingdom of God.

This song is a major victory for Satan

tribrac wrote: ↑August 16th, 2018, 5:22 pm Whoa Nelson is going to push you. Where Hinkley seemed to be a book end of an era by celebrating the past, Nelson appears bound to be the front cover of a new era where the church resets all of its institutions.

If you find comfort in the predictability of the LDS church you are not going to be comfortable anymore.

Which surprised me considering the mans almost 100 yrs old. That's kind new era thinking is what I'd expect from a younger prophet.

Joel wrote: ↑May 31st, 2019, 7:55 pm This song is a major victory for Satan

Not so sure about being a victory for satan, but why does everything have to be africanized these days? I'm so tired of ghetto trash being glorified.
Besides, I outgrew this nonsense years ago.

The Airbender wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:42 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 9:19 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 8:22 pm Does anyone really suppose that a first-time reader of the Book of Mormon, not steeped in Mormonism, would come to any kind of conclusion that this section of Jacob 2 allows anyone to have more than one wife?

If they are aware of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament... Yes, they would.

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

There is only one way to create a human body... right?

If that's so, then what does it say about him if Mary never even knew it happened??

tdj wrote: ↑May 31st, 2019, 8:21 pm

tribrac wrote: ↑August 16th, 2018, 5:22 pm Whoa Nelson is going to push you. Where Hinkley seemed to be a book end of an era by celebrating the past, Nelson appears bound to be the front cover of a new era where the church resets all of its institutions.

If you find comfort in the predictability of the LDS church you are not going to be comfortable anymore.

Which surprised me considering the mans almost 100 yrs old. That's kind new era thinking is what I'd expect from a younger prophet.

His wife is 25 years younger than him, and was a career woman, unmarried, no children, before she married Nelson a year after his first wife died. I don't remember ever seeing as much of the church president's wife as we have seen of Wendy Nelson. My guess is that it's because she is younger than others were, she is not so emotionally attached to his grandchildren as the first wife would have been, and it's a nod to the feminists that she is always on his arm, sort of breaking up the boys' club.

His wife is 25 years younger than him, and was a career woman, unmarried, no children, before she married Nelson a year after his first wife died. I don't remember ever seeing as much of the church president's wife as we have seen of Wendy Nelson. My guess is that it's because she is younger than others were, she is not so emotionally attached to his grandchildren as the first wife would have been, and it's a nod to the feminists that she is always on his arm, sort of breaking up the boys' club.

Can't find much about her prior to her marriage to President Nelson, but on a side note Sigmund Freud said that men strive to find a mate that reminds them of their mothers. Check out the picture of President Nelson's mom on this page:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... 2?lang=eng

Picture of Wendy Nelson:

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... onal-49627

Picture of his first wife:

https://giving.utah.edu/imagine/univers ... c-surgery/

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... 2?lang=eng

Most inspiring ... thanks for the link.

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 9:19 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 8:22 pm Does anyone really suppose that a first-time reader of the Book of Mormon, not steeped in Mormonism, would come to any kind of conclusion that this section of Jacob 2 allows anyone to have more than one wife?

If they are aware of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament... Yes, they would.

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

Yes. It's not so much he's denying the virgin birth, as he is changing the definition of virgin.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

Plenty of virgins have babies today, plenty of them. It is easy for our minds to grasp IVF technology or even artificial insemination but that would never have been imagined in Brigham Young's day. Same with people believing the world was completely submerged by the flood just because Noah recording his civilization, from his perspective, submerged.

Fiannan wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 8:01 am

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

Plenty of virgins have babies today, plenty of them. It is easy for our minds to grasp IVF technology or even artificial insemination but that would never have been imagined in Brigham Young's day. Same with people believing the world was completely submerged by the flood just because Noah recording his civilization, from his perspective, submerged.

Why would a virgin have IVF?

Because she wants a child and is unmarried.

Hie'ing to Kolob wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 10:21 am
Why would a virgin have IVF?

Why would a virgin have IVF?

Wendy Nelson got married at the age of 56. She was not married before that. I would assume there are quite a few never-married religious women who are virgins and in their 30s.

Technically a woman who has only been involved with other women is a virgin.

There are also some a-sexual women who do not want any sexual relationships.

Any of these types of women can, and do, opt for IVF or artificial insemination every day. So yes, thousands and thousands of women have given birth without ever having been with a man sexually. This is a pre-flood technology to be sure, and was not discovered again until late in the 19th Century, long after Brigham Young was dead.

tdj wrote: ↑May 31st, 2019, 8:28 pm

The Airbender wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:42 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 9:19 pm

If they are aware of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament... Yes, they would.

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

There is only one way to create a human body... right?

If that's so, then what does it say about him if Mary never even knew it happened??

You believe Mary didn't know it happened?

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:15 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 9:19 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 8:22 pm Does anyone really suppose that a first-time reader of the Book of Mormon, not steeped in Mormonism, would come to any kind of conclusion that this section of Jacob 2 allows anyone to have more than one wife?

If they are aware of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament... Yes, they would.

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

No quantum leaping involved...no agenda needed

Jacob was preaching to an old testament people who had the Brass Plates,they were well aware of the Patriarchal practices of polygamy. Think Abraham, Isaac , Jacob.... This is no leap.

Abraham and Sarah actually used a surrogate concubine, Isaac only had one wife, and Jacob was tricked into marrying a woman he didn't want to marry and his two wives forced their handmaids upon him as surrogate concubines to battle for his affection by bearing him, children.

None of these situations equates with what is termed "polygamy" and how it was practiced among the saints. Jacob didn't even include them in his preaching because they were using the examples of David and Solomon specifically to justify their lust for sex.

They were not trying to righteously live the lives of the patriarchs. They were filthy-minded individuals looking for a way to satisfy their lusts upon the women, and perhaps young girls ("...because of their tenderness") among their people.

I do agree with Chip. I think most people read Jacob 2:30 as a loophole for "polygamy" only because they have been taught it that way. It is also fair to note that the church in Brigham's day and beyond did seem to want to read polygamy into many other things. You cannot underestimate how important the doctrine of polygamy was to those early saints, they stood by it firmly and would interpret scriptures in the light of that doctrine. They believed that they had a kind of revelatory authority to do so.

You don't hear most of those teachings today.

Also, I hear a lot of people talking about polygamy, but the Book of Mormon speaks of "many wives AND concubines" and some of the patriarchs did use concubines. So if we are ok with having many wives, how about concubines? Why don't we ever talk about them because they go hand in hand with the practice of having many wives?

A concubine would be a woman who may or may not be a wife but are in some cases servants, or slaves used primarily for sexual purposes.

The Airbender wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2019, 11:52 am

tdj wrote: ↑May 31st, 2019, 8:28 pm

The Airbender wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:42 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

There is only one way to create a human body... right?

If that's so, then what does it say about him if Mary never even knew it happened??

You believe Mary didn't know it happened?

When the angel came to her to tell her what happened, the text led me to believe she was incredulous. She even went so far as to ask how it could have happened, since she had never known a man. Even a young girl that naive, would have put two and two together after an encounter.

The Airbender wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 11:42 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 10:45 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 9:19 pm

Chip wrote: ↑August 21st, 2018, 8:22 pm Does anyone really suppose that a first-time reader of the Book of Mormon, not steeped in Mormonism, would come to any kind of conclusion that this section of Jacob 2 allows anyone to have more than one wife?

If they are aware of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament... Yes, they would.

I think that would be an unreasonable quantum leap for anyone to make, and extremely speculative. You'd need to be approaching the matter with a polygamy agenda.

On the other hand, Brigham Young could read polygamy into everything. According to him, even Mary had to have sex with Heavenly Father, despite ALL the scriptural basis of Jesus being born of a virgin. Do we ever just call a spade a spade in Mormonism? How much stuff like this are we obliged to swallow, as members of the Church?

There is only one way to create a human body... right?

I guess that depends on what you consider a "way." Human bodies can be created without sex, just like Jesus could heal without surgery, he didn't even have to touch them. Is a healing without touch any less of a healing? Is a virgin conception and birth any less of a birth?