Lying for the Lord

[dewajack]

I just recently read a comment on a blog that God commanded Abraham to lie when he declared that Sarah was his sister. When In fact Sarah was his half-sister, therefore, Abraham didn’t lie.

I’m sharing this because I’ve heard others talk about “lying for The Lord” on numerous occasions with regard to polygamy and other matters.

Christ Himself said in John 8,

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

D&C 93 tells us,

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

D&C 76 states,
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gatheredwith the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.


There is no such thing as lying for The Lord. In fact, if God was a liar, He would cease to be who He is, and we couldn’t exercise faith in a being like that.

I’ve also heard some say that the devil will tell you a 1,000 truths to get you to believe 1 lie. However, since he is a liar from the beginning, and the father of all lies, you obviously can’t trust anything he has to say, and if anyone believes they are telling a lie for the Lord, or it’s something He wants them to do, then obviously they aren’t really listening to The Lord at that moment, but are under the influence of a false spirit.

Borrowing from Rush’s Limelight, The Lord can literally say, “I have no heart to lie.”

[TrueIntent]

These are people who wrest the scriptures for their own gain. There are lots of them in our church. We are not immune from “secret combinations” and anyone who says that we are does not understand the Patterns found in scripture.

God does not change. But putting on the mind of God is a can of worms for people who don’t have the “resting” gift of the Holy Ghost.

[nightlight]

We are all brothers and sisters

[Lizzy60]

https://wheatandtares.org/2018/02/04/th ... -hearings/

An interesting blogpost on the subject.

[Robin Hood]

While it is true that there is no such thing as lying for the Lord, we can be economical with the truth.
Abraham was not lying when he said that Sarah was his sister, but he was witholding additional information. He told the truth, but didn't volunteer more than was necessary.

[abijah]

nephi (among a great many others) murdered for the lord.

if the lord commands it, He then becomes accountable for the act.

the execution of laban will not be mentioned at nephi’s judgement.

neither at abraham’s “she is my sister”, or jacob’s “i am thy firstborn”, when they stand at the bar of god.

[TrueIntent]

https://wheatandtares.org/2018/02/04/th ... -hearings/

An interesting blogpost on the subject.

Indeed.

[Finrock]

nephi (among a great many others) murdered for the lord.

if the lord commands it, He then becomes accountable for the act.

the execution of laban will not be mentioned at nephi’s judgement.

neither at abraham’s “she is my sister”, or jacob’s “i am thy firstborn”, when they stand at the bar of god.

A careful reading of the scriptures doesn't lead to this conclusion. Nephi did not murder anyone and much less for the Lord.

-Finrock

[nightlight]

While it is true that there is no such thing as lying for the Lord, we can be economical with the truth.
Abraham was not lying when he said that Sarah was his sister, but he was witholding additional information. He told the truth, but didn't volunteer more than was necessary.

Lol kind of like...

24 And I also spake unto him that I should carry the engravings, which were upon the plates of brass, to my elder brethren, who were without the walls.

25 And I also bade him that he should follow me.

26 And he, supposing that I spake of the brethren of the church, and that I was truly that Laban whom I had slain, wherefore he did follow me.

[mgridle1]

Seriously??

This is ridiculous. Clearly there are instances in life where lying is a good thing!

If you were a German in the 1940s hiding a Jew and you were asked if you were hiding a Jew, CLEARLY the right answer would be NO!

IMO, those who seem to bring this up are really straining at gnats and do not live in the real world. There are plenty of times in the real world where telling a lie is exactly the right thing to do. Obviously, we shouldn't make a habit of it and clearly it is not an everyday occurrence.

But before we go any further in the conversation, we should all be clear that yes there are definitely instances in life where lying is the right thing to do.

[abijah]

nephi (among a great many others) murdered for the lord.

if the lord commands it, He then becomes accountable for the act.

the execution of laban will not be mentioned at nephi’s judgement.

neither at abraham’s “she is my sister”, or jacob’s “i am thy firstborn”, when they stand at the bar of god.

A careful reading of the scriptures doesn't lead to this conclusion. Nephi did not murder anyone and much less for the Lord.

-Finrock

i’m welcome to considering the interpretation of your “careful reading”. if i’m in fact incorrect in my conclusion i’ll gladly own up to it

[Finrock]

nephi (among a great many others) murdered for the lord.

if the lord commands it, He then becomes accountable for the act.

the execution of laban will not be mentioned at nephi’s judgement.

neither at abraham’s “she is my sister”, or jacob’s “i am thy firstborn”, when they stand at the bar of god.

A careful reading of the scriptures doesn't lead to this conclusion. Nephi did not murder anyone and much less for the Lord.

-Finrock

i’m welcome to considering the interpretation of your “careful reading”. if i’m in fact incorrect in my conclusion i’ll gladly own up to it

6 And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.
7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine.

Why didn’t Nephi simply say that Laban was drunk? Why did he bother saying that Laban had fallen to the earth? One must understand that for a Jew it is highly shameful to prostrate oneself to the point that it’s actually forbidden to be done on any occasion. A Jew will only prostrate before G-d on the Day of Atonement.
Prostrating to the earth was associated with an act of worshipping foreign gods. And so was the act of drinking wine out in the open which was also unusual for the Israelite society. Most likely Laban had been participating in some kind of ritual worship that involved drinking wine.

What is interesting is that by Jewish law the act of bowing down in worship of a strange god would merit the punishment of beheading as stated in the Talmud:

"one who prostrates himself before a mountain… renders himself liable to decapitation."
(b.Sanhedrin 61a)

The mountain described in this tractate is referring to the adoration of idols which occurred on the mountains.

8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.
9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

Why would Nephi bother to give us a description of Laban’s sword? The answer is simple:

The hilt of gold: The term “hilt” in Hebrew is ידית (yadit) which literally is the feminine form of the word יד (yad) which means “hand”. And the term “gold” in Israelite thought meant “pure spirituality”.
The blade of steel: The term “blade” in Hebrew is להב (lahav) which means both “blade” and also “flame”. Because of this, the term is associated with judgement. And “steel” or “iron” in Israelite thought meant “destruction”.
So what is Nephi telling us? That Laban received a judgement of destruction by the hands of someone who was spiritually pure.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.
11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

It is no coincidence that Nephi stated that Laban tried to take his life. According to Jewish law two are the kinds of people who deserve death by beheading: murderers and idolaters:

"the following are decapitated: a murderer, and the inhabitans of a seduced city."
(b.Sanhedrin 76b)

Laban fit both categories and thus was unequivocally slain in justice.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Seriously??

This is ridiculous. Clearly there are instances in life where lying is a good thing!

If you were a German in the 1940s hiding a Jew and you were asked if you were hiding a Jew, CLEARLY the right answer would be NO!

IMO, those who seem to bring this up are really straining at gnats and do not live in the real world. There are plenty of times in the real world where telling a lie is exactly the right thing to do. Obviously, we shouldn't make a habit of it and clearly it is not an everyday occurrence.

But before we go any further in the conversation, we should all be clear that yes there are definitely instances in life where lying is the right thing to do.

The OP is about "lying for the Lord". So, context is important here. In LDS circles this reasoning has been used to say that when Joseph Smith said that he didn't practice polygamy, he was actually lying, but he was lying for the Lord so that he could protect the Church, etc. Or, it has been used to justify other instances in Church history where Church leaders have acted in less than honorable fashion and members or leaders "lied" so that they wouldn't get in to trouble with the law, etc.

I don't think lying so that you can protect innocent lives from a murderous regime is what is being discussed here.

-Finrock

[Michelle]

Seriously??

This is ridiculous. Clearly there are instances in life where lying is a good thing!

If you were a German in the 1940s hiding a Jew and you were asked if you were hiding a Jew, CLEARLY the right answer would be NO!

IMO, those who seem to bring this up are really straining at gnats and do not live in the real world. There are plenty of times in the real world where telling a lie is exactly the right thing to do. Obviously, we shouldn't make a habit of it and clearly it is not an everyday occurrence.

But before we go any further in the conversation, we should all be clear that yes there are definitely instances in life where lying is the right thing to do.

Clearly a reading of The Hiding Place, by Corrie Ten Boom is in order.

There is a true story of a woman revealing, when asked directly, that the they were hiding people under the floor under a table, if I remember correctly. Everyone was shocked since she had just barely helped hide them. But the purposes of the Lord are greater than man and it turned out to be necessary for the safety of those particular Jews that she told the truth and did not lie.

[Michelle]

I have learned from the scriptures that we are not the exception to the rule. And when we appear to be, it will be at the Lord's command, but still, we may find we were mistaken in thinking ourselves the exception when all is said, done and revealed.

Nephi didn't murder anyone. Laban tried on multiple occasions to kill Nephi as well as stealing from him. Under the law of the time, he was perfectly justified in killing Laban. The Lord confirmed that and Nephi's hesitation was that he had never shed blood before, not that Laban was innocent of capital crimes.

Joseph was justified in marrying Mary and not stoning her, because she was innocent of fornication. They only appeared to be the exception to those who did not know the whole story. Again, it was the Lord who confirmed her innocence.

There are plenty of stories in the scriptures like this, where a full accounting reveals that no Law of God was broken in what appear to be exceptions.

[TrueIntent]

While it is true that there is no such thing as lying for the Lord, we can be economical with the truth.
Abraham was not lying when he said that Sarah was his sister, but he was witholding additional information. He told the truth, but didn't volunteer more than was necessary.

Lol kind of like...

24 And I also spake unto him that I should carry the engravings, which were upon the plates of brass, to my elder brethren, who were without the walls.

25 And I also bade him that he should follow me.

26 And he, supposing that I spake of the brethren of the church, and that I was truly that Laban whom I had slain, wherefore he did follow me.

If you would be willing to experiment on the word with me for a moment.....there is a pattern of progression and opposites. Lehi is an opposite of Laban (represents the elders). Two leaders, both with records, both “claim” to serve the people and the Lord. Nephi is the reborn version that chooses to follow the spirit of God. Laban’s death is the result of that birth. You will find a similar pattern flowing through scripture. A “death” always occurs. As well as a rebirth.

Even in ancient cultures. Nephi, putting on Labans “garments” to enter into the the “place” where the “records” are hidden. Hercules in mythology puts on the coat of Lion as a disguise to chop of the head of the beast. This is a repeating pattern.

Dressing in “disguise” to enter the presence..,,progression from “opposites”. To an exalted higher version.

Brothers, sisters, wives and husbands, sons daughters often are written as progression patterns of what “MAY BE” considered a progression of the same person.

Leaving city walls, going back three times, getting records, putting on a disguise or garment or covering to enter into a place are all repeating pattern.

Some stories follow this same pattern. Some other stories follow different patterns. It all repeats and the message is the same.

[inho]

My understanding is that the notion of 'lying for the Lord' became widespread in Mormonism during the time before the Manifesto, when polygamists were hiding on the 'Underground'.

[gardener4life]

So are you guys posting this thread because of polygamy? Or are you worried about something else? Anything specific in mind?

It's not good to lie. I try my best not to lie. But we don't have to exactly invite the executioner and wash our own neck for him either by being too voluntary with unnecessary information either.

[Finrock]

So are you guys posting this thread because of polygamy? Or are you worried about something else? Anything specific in mind?

I just recently read a comment on a blog that God commanded Abraham to lie when he declared that Sarah was his sister. When In fact Sarah was his half-sister, therefore, Abraham didn’t lie.

I’m sharing this because I’ve heard others talk about “lying for The Lord” on numerous occasions with regard to polygamy and other matters.

-Finrock

[Baurak Ale]

The attitude that God would never condone a lie because the scriptures say that God cannot tell a lie, or that the devil cannot tell the truth because the scriptures say that he is the father of all lies, makes one sound like a flock of hornets ready to sting, or condemn, based on appearances alone.

At one time God has said, thou shalt not kill, and at another, spare no living thing. How then do we understand the apparent contradiction? How do we determine what is right from situation to situation? Answer: whatever God says is right.

The devil told Eve that partaking of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was the way Father gained His knowledge, and in Genesis we read, “God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil“ (Genesis 3:5).

Now, reason ye among yourselves: did the Devil not tell the truth?

Beware, lest as you are hemmed in by your wasp nest, you may drive the devil out with the truth of heaven in his briefcase.

[mgridle1]

Seriously??

This is ridiculous. Clearly there are instances in life where lying is a good thing!

If you were a German in the 1940s hiding a Jew and you were asked if you were hiding a Jew, CLEARLY the right answer would be NO!

IMO, those who seem to bring this up are really straining at gnats and do not live in the real world. There are plenty of times in the real world where telling a lie is exactly the right thing to do. Obviously, we shouldn't make a habit of it and clearly it is not an everyday occurrence.

But before we go any further in the conversation, we should all be clear that yes there are definitely instances in life where lying is the right thing to do.

The OP is about "lying for the Lord". So, context is important here. In LDS circles this reasoning has been used to say that when Joseph Smith said that he didn't practice polygamy, he was actually lying, but he was lying for the Lord so that he could protect the Church, etc. Or, it has been used to justify other instances in Church history where Church leaders have acted in less than honorable fashion and members or leaders "lied" so that they wouldn't get in to trouble with the law, etc.

I don't think lying so that you can protect innocent lives from a murderous regime is what is being discussed here.

-Finrock

No the point is that it is plainly obvious that there are times and circumstances where it absolutely is appropriate to lie.

The reason why I say this is straining at gnats is because human beings lie all the time, some big, some small. We tell our children about Santa Claus, when your 5 year old asks how are babies made we don't go into graphic detail about (or really any detail at all) about the particulars.

Those who are hung up on this MUST believe that in NO circumstances EVER is it EVER appropriate to lie. If that is your belief than I disagree, but at least one is consistent. However, that is not the case, for those that this is a big issue for (in general)-they absolutely KNOW in their heart of hearts that they are hypocrites-which is one thing the Lord absolutely hates.

[mgridle1]

Seriously??

This is ridiculous. Clearly there are instances in life where lying is a good thing!

If you were a German in the 1940s hiding a Jew and you were asked if you were hiding a Jew, CLEARLY the right answer would be NO!

IMO, those who seem to bring this up are really straining at gnats and do not live in the real world. There are plenty of times in the real world where telling a lie is exactly the right thing to do. Obviously, we shouldn't make a habit of it and clearly it is not an everyday occurrence.

But before we go any further in the conversation, we should all be clear that yes there are definitely instances in life where lying is the right thing to do.

Clearly a reading of The Hiding Place, by Corrie Ten Boom is in order.

There is a true story of a woman revealing, when asked directly, that the they were hiding people under the floor under a table, if I remember correctly. Everyone was shocked since she had just barely helped hide them. But the purposes of the Lord are greater than man and it turned out to be necessary for the safety of those particular Jews that she told the truth and did not lie.

Right and what about the example of the anti-nephi-lehis who when the enemy came upon them they would rather be completely slaughtered vs. defend their right to life. Does that mean that the highest goal in our lives is to NEVER defend yourself? Does that mean if someone is raping your wife you should do absolutely nothing?

One can cherry-pick (and that is what you are doing) examples all day long of instances like the above, just like we can do with the scriptures. That's why it's important to take the entire view of the scriptures and understand that yes as a general rule lying is very, very bad, just like taking the life of another human being is in general very, very bad. However, there are circumstances where it is allowed and we should be very judicious in when, where and how those exceptions come about in our lives.

[diligently seeking]

"Lovest thou me more than these" the answer was a resounding !yes! for Joseph--- particularly toward the end of his life. His fear for man was felt but very small compared to his devotion to truth and fidelity toward his God. I believe strongly on multiple clear occasions Joseph's denouncing of plural marriage etc was a function of he meant what he proclaimed!

[Finrock]

Seriously??

This is ridiculous. Clearly there are instances in life where lying is a good thing!

If you were a German in the 1940s hiding a Jew and you were asked if you were hiding a Jew, CLEARLY the right answer would be NO!

IMO, those who seem to bring this up are really straining at gnats and do not live in the real world. There are plenty of times in the real world where telling a lie is exactly the right thing to do. Obviously, we shouldn't make a habit of it and clearly it is not an everyday occurrence.

But before we go any further in the conversation, we should all be clear that yes there are definitely instances in life where lying is the right thing to do.

The OP is about "lying for the Lord". So, context is important here. In LDS circles this reasoning has been used to say that when Joseph Smith said that he didn't practice polygamy, he was actually lying, but he was lying for the Lord so that he could protect the Church, etc. Or, it has been used to justify other instances in Church history where Church leaders have acted in less than honorable fashion and members or leaders "lied" so that they wouldn't get in to trouble with the law, etc.

I don't think lying so that you can protect innocent lives from a murderous regime is what is being discussed here.

-Finrock

No the point is that it is plainly obvious that there are times and circumstances where it absolutely is appropriate to lie.

The reason why I say this is straining at gnats is because human beings lie all the time, some big, some small. We tell our children about Santa Claus, when your 5 year old asks how are babies made we don't go into graphic detail about (or really any detail at all) about the particulars.

Those who are hung up on this MUST believe that in NO circumstances EVER is it EVER appropriate to lie. If that is your belief than I disagree, but at least one is consistent. However, that is not the case, for those that this is a big issue for (in general)-they absolutely KNOW in their heart of hearts that they are hypocrites-which is one thing the Lord absolutely hates.

That might be your point but not the OPs point. Nobody is hung up on your point. But your free to make your point and argue it all day long.

-Finrockl

[mgridle1]

Seriously??

This is ridiculous. Clearly there are instances in life where lying is a good thing!

If you were a German in the 1940s hiding a Jew and you were asked if you were hiding a Jew, CLEARLY the right answer would be NO!

IMO, those who seem to bring this up are really straining at gnats and do not live in the real world. There are plenty of times in the real world where telling a lie is exactly the right thing to do. Obviously, we shouldn't make a habit of it and clearly it is not an everyday occurrence.

But before we go any further in the conversation, we should all be clear that yes there are definitely instances in life where lying is the right thing to do.

The OP is about "lying for the Lord". So, context is important here. In LDS circles this reasoning has been used to say that when Joseph Smith said that he didn't practice polygamy, he was actually lying, but he was lying for the Lord so that he could protect the Church, etc. Or, it has been used to justify other instances in Church history where Church leaders have acted in less than honorable fashion and members or leaders "lied" so that they wouldn't get in to trouble with the law, etc.

I don't think lying so that you can protect innocent lives from a murderous regime is what is being discussed here.

-Finrock

No the point is that it is plainly obvious that there are times and circumstances where it absolutely is appropriate to lie.

The reason why I say this is straining at gnats is because human beings lie all the time, some big, some small. We tell our children about Santa Claus, when your 5 year old asks how are babies made we don't go into graphic detail about (or really any detail at all) about the particulars.

Those who are hung up on this MUST believe that in NO circumstances EVER is it EVER appropriate to lie. If that is your belief than I disagree, but at least one is consistent. However, that is not the case, for those that this is a big issue for (in general)-they absolutely KNOW in their heart of hearts that they are hypocrites-which is one thing the Lord absolutely hates.

That might be your point but not the OPs point. Nobody is hung up on your point. But your free to make your point and argue it all day long.

-Finrockl

No it's at the heart of the issue. If one decides that at points and times in our life it might be necessary and good to lie then the next question becomes when is it appropriate. Well, the when it is appropriate is obviously when the Spirit directs us to, aka "lying for the Lord".

In general it is very, very hard to actually tell a convincing lie, if you learn to read body language it becomes pretty obvious when someone is very uncomfortable with their answer (it doesn't mean they are lying, just that they are uncomfortable with the response they gave).