An interesting point you bring up. See, I believe that prophecies are actually both foresight and fore-influence. But in order to explain that view fully, I need to touch back to my beliefs on Determinism, which Emily summarized quite nicely when she said:Michelle wrote: ↑July 30th, 2018, 1:39 pmI don't think so. I believe the prophesies are foresight, not fore-influence.
See my previous posts in this thread for further details on this phenomenon.XEmilyX wrote: ↑July 28th, 2018, 7:47 pm I think God can see all the ways our life can develop. Kind of like how Dr. Strange (I think that's who it is) can see thousands of different ways things can play out. And if we choose the right or left road God can tell what's down that road and help us adjust correctly.
So then, how can we apply this information to the situation of Judas? Well, let us see.
Its very possible that part of that was what was running through Judas' mind. The fact is that we know very little about him, save what Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John said about him... which was very little. What little we did hear about him paints him as an awful man, but with 2000 or so years of difference between then and now that could have been altered and changed many times, that is probably not an entirely accurate viewpoint. If you consider the fact that the men who wrote the gospels were likely men filled with grief at the time, that they would develop some negative opinions of Judas, and probably viewed him as a monster for what he did. Despite the fact that even though they had been there for it, they likely didn't know the full story, I think there is more going on here than meets the eye.
We know a few thing that tell us just how essential the Betrayal was.
- It was written in ancient prophecy that Christ would die for our sins, and that He would be betrayed by someone close to Him. Since we know that Christ has to perform the Atonement in order for the Plan of Salvation to succeed, that means that this event is a Key Event, and therefore the prophecies regarding this have to be unconditional in nature.
- Christ needed to die by crucifixion as part of the Atonement. This is a "Key Event" that needed to occur. If we factor in the points that only the jewish people of this time period and location were extremely wicked and stubborn to the point where they would knowingly martyr their God, then things start making sense. If we also factor in that they are especially intolerant of Heresy around passover, then we can also reasonably conclude that Christ's death had to be around around the time of passover, for both practical and symbolic reasons. I highly doubt that the passover of Christ's third year of ministry was the specific time for only symbolic reasons, but its all we really have to go on. Certain things Christ says indicates that there was a specific time and place the Atonement needed to occur at, which further backs up this point (Talking about how He groaned as the time for the Atonement approached, and other similar such statements).
- We know that Christ was supposed to be betrayed. While this prophecy could be conditional in nature, the fact that it is tied to a Key Event would indicate otherwise, thus Christ's betrayal must also occur. Since true betrayal requires someone to trust you (at least to some extent), then that must mean that only one of Yeshua's (Christ's Hebrew name) closest disciples could deliver Him to the Sanhedrin. If you think about it, it makes sense why the betrayer must be a close disciple or one of the Twelve, as they spend the most time around Him. To the Sanhedrin, a betrayer from among Twelve or Christs closest disciples would be a very valuable asset. They would know how He thinks (in theory), how He acts, what his routine is, where He hangs out at, and most importantly, they can easily recognize and identify Him even in a crowd. Someone who doesn't have those traits could easily mess up any attempt to arrest Jesus, be it in broad daylight or in the night. Remember that Christ can easily slip into a crowd and blend in with little effort, as the Jews tried to arrest him several times already and he escaped. A betrayal was the best and most reliable option for catching a man like that, especially since he'd be out of Jerusalem and back into Galilee as soon as the passover was done. The Sanhedrin didn't have the same amount of influence in Galilee as they did in Judea.
- Logically speaking the only close disciples that we know of are the Twelve Apostles, Mary Magdalene, Lazarus, Martha and her sister Mary, and Mary the Mother of Jesus. Lazarus, Mary, and Martha are out cause they have been life long friends of Jesus, and Lazarus has just been raised from the dead, so their betrayal isn't likely; they have had plenty of opportunity to do it before now, so why wouldn't they have done it? Christ's Mother is obviously out of the picture as well. Mary Magdalene is not too likely either. So that means that the betrayer must come from among the Twelve. Either way you look at it, a member of the Twelve was the best best to catching Jesus. If Judas didn't do it, then another of the 12 it in order for that prophecy to be fulfilled.
- Christ had to die rather quickly, and the betrayal was the fastest way to accomplish His death at the appointed time. Conditions were just right for it, as He had stirred the pot quite a bit during that passover, and had caused enough trouble to get the Sanhedrin annoyed enough at Him to want to outright conspire to kill him. It was now or never for Christ, and things had to happen quickly, else the situation would rapidly deteriorate. Thus, the betrayal of Jesus was not only prophesied, but completely necessary and even essential for the entire plan to be pulled off without a hitch.
- Why did Christ have to die quickly? Well, if wasn't arrested when He was, then it would be a full year before the conditions needed for the fulfillment of the Atonement could even come close to being met a second time, and thats assuming that there wasn't any conditions that could only be met during that specific passover). His actions during the last week of His life lit the fuse, and it was only a matter of time till the dynamite detonated. The Sanhedrin were frothing at the mouth to kill him (officially or unofficially) since the day He publicly raised Lazarus from the dead, and I don't doubt that if they failed to catch Christ on the evening of the Passover, then they would from then on out seek to hound Christ until they caught or killed Him. Heck, they may even have grown desperate enough to send assassins. Christ wouldn't be able to teach anymore without being drowned in his own growing popularity, or risk being stoned, or targeted by soldiers and assassins. Frankly, I doubt He'd be able to wait another year without having to perform some miracle that would all but confirm that He was indeed the great YHVH of the old testament.
- There was a specific time table that Christ had to adhere to. If He were to have waited another year, then it would severely increase the risk of Christ getting arrested and martyred before the conditions of the Atonement could be met again, which would mess up the entire Plan of Salvation. If Christ died too early or too late, Satan would have a field day; even if the Atonement was able to be completed later or earlier, it wouldn't have been at the optimal or most effective time, and the effects could've been disastrous in unknown spiritual, physical, temporal, political, and economic manners. Christ wouldn't have been able to teach or accomplish the other things He had to do while still alive if He died early. If He was arrested much later, then His growing popularity among the general populace of Israel could've outright prevented or messed up His execution even to the point where He might've actually been able to fufill the Second Coming prophecies right then and there, but would've failed to achieve the Remission of Sins. If His following was too small when He died, His impact upon history wouldn't even have been noteworthy, and the world as we know it would be vastly different, and a far more scary place. If His following was too large, His death would've sparked a civil war in Palestine within days of His execution, sparking the events leading to the Diaspora way before Christianity had a chance to even start flourishing outside of Israel. If He never died, then the Romans in the area would likely started to be converted in addition to some of the more faithful Jews, and that would have made it even harder for Christ to perform the Atonement.
- The Apostles were familiar with the scriptures, and likely they had read the prophecies about Christ's betrayal. Now, wether or not they put two and two together and realized that he needed to be betrayed is up in the air. It seems like they didn't, but I cannot say for sure.
- Judas delivered Christ into the hands of the Sanhedrin. In a sense, Judas isn't so much as betraying Christ, as he is helping Him to fulfill the atonement. Now whether or not Judas did this knowingly or not, I cannot say for sure, although I do suspect that he may have known on some level about this.
- Judas's betrayal was symbolic of Satan's betrayal in the pre-mortal life.
- Unlike Satan, Judas did clearly regret his actions. Thats like the entire reason why he committed suicide.
- With a member of the Twelve betraying Him, The Law of Opposites is upheld (Opposition must be in all things). Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.You can't have light without darkness, and likewise, you cannot have a Jesus without a Judas... a Savior without an Anti-Savior.
Hardly. Unlike Christ, Judas was still a flawed man... nor was he a member of the Godhead. He made mistakes like all of us. If anyone is just below Christ for "taking one for the team" it isn't Judas... but the Holy Ghost, followed closely by a certain Courageous Unnamed Spirit that I talked about in the Private Discussion forum. There are plenty of other souls who have made similar sacrifices, and have come out far better off than Judas."Taking one for the team" isn't exactly new for this particular cycle of Eternity: God did it, Christ did it, the Holy Ghost may likely do it if He hasn't already, the Courageous Spirit did it, Adam and Eve did it, the Marred Servant did it and will probably do it again, the Davidic Servant will probably do it, and so forth. While Christ is the lynch pin that holds the Plan of Salvation together, the entire Plan is a team effort that depends upon all the Children of the Morning doing their essential parts. Judas ain't gonna be high on the totem poll, though he did do something entirely and completely necessary for the Plan.
GOOD POINT, and a good scripture to back it up! That is certainly one true lesson you can get from the story of Judas or Cain, but it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't the only true lesson you can get from it. Remember, the scriptures are deep, and are meant to facilitate and enhance our relationship with God. Although they teach many truths inspired by and directed by God, the scriptures were still recorded by men. They have their flaws in them, even as we do. God will use them to teach us many truths, even if the truths taught were not the original meanings contained within the scriptures.Michelle wrote: ↑July 30th, 2018, 1:39 pmI think the true lesson is that none of us can be complacent in our efforts to be righteous. The line between good and evil is razor sharp and we must be very careful not to stumble over it. The good news is, God is not trying to trick us. He is on our side. He is clear in his message and exacting -for our benefit.
Genesis 4:6-7
And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
As such, I will use this opportunity to share what I have learned from writing and pondering about these things; however, I will need t speculate on who exactly Judas' was, and try to piece together his thought process and state of mind was in order to help convey it. In the scriptures, all we really know about Judas for sure are a few things: he was the holder of "the bag" (whatever that means) and we know that he betrayed Christ with a kiss. All the rest is accusation or supposition (with little textual proof to back it up): he was implied to be somewhat greedy, was accused by Matthew of being a liar and a thief, and Luke and John speculate that he was possessed by Satan when he went to betray Jesus (note why I said Judas was symbolic of Satan earlier). At first, it seems like this is just a case of "haters gonna hate" as the authors of the gospel wouldn't take too having their master be betrayed by one of their own and killed.
However, what if these accusations and suppositions are at least partially true? After all, Christ had a habit of calling unworthy and possibly sinful men to be His apostles. As a group, they were cowardly, dense headed (Mark 4:13), often lacked faith (Mark 4:40), Stubborn or Hard Hearted (Mark 6:52), competitive (Mark 9:34), possessive (Mark 9:38), selfishly ambitious (Mark 10:37), and sometimes jealous (Mark 10:41). Matthew was a tax collector or Lawyer(roles often viewed as a vile form of sinner by the jewish people at the time), and if Matthew could be called, why couldn't Judas also be called alongside these other sinful men? I don't think it unreasonable to accept that Judas at one point was a literal liar and a thief before becoming an apostle. Such a person, would naturally be a bit greedy, at the very least. In either case, Christ was known to spend His time teaching publicans and sinners, and call them to repentance, so having a known law breaker as an Apostle isn't too out of character for Him. Furthermore, If Judas was as sinful as the gospel accounts hint at, it wouldn't be surprising if he was possessed by devils at least once in his life.
So, we have a troubled, greedy, and sinful man who was/is possibly a liar and thief, who was possibly possessed of the devil at times previously, who now finds himself as one of the chief disciples of this man who claims to be the Messiah. Some people have even speculated that Judas may have been a Zealot, seeking the Messiah to triumphantly lead a revolution against the Romans. Since that view would fit with Judas's potential character profile (as well as many of the Apostles and disciples of Christ during that day), lets run with it.
Now, lets put ourselves in the shoes of this man we call Judas Iscariot. You've read the scriptures, you know that the Messiah is supposed to perform miracles and free the people of Israel from the yoke of roman bondage. You've seen Him perform miracles, and so far, He fits the prophecies to a tee, although in a very unconventional manner. He's soft spoken and mild when He speaks. He's compassionate and reserved, and spends his time with sinners such as yourself. He encourages mercy, peace, and love instead of contention. Yet He speaks with authority and firmness, in a way that sends chills down your spine. He stands up to the Pharisees and Sadducees calling them out on their Hypocrisy, striving to teach the people how to rise above the hate of this world. You know something is different about Him. He has to be the Messiah! And He called you to be one of His right hand men! Aww yeah, time to kick some Roman butt.
As you watched and grew closer to the man, the more convinced you were that He was the Messiah. Yet, as time goes by, Jesus wasn't doing what He was supposed to be doing. He performed many miracles and taught many wise and profound things, but where was the fire of the Lord that would cleanse Israel of the Lord's enemies? At times, you saw hints of it, but then the flames would see them flicker and die. He preached meekness and submission, not independence and freedom like you had hoped. He cared for you, and trusted you, like no other; but He seemed to have no desire to bring about the Kingdom of God. In fact, at times, He even seemed like He was suicidal in nature, that He wished to die... almost like He never wanted this role in the first place. That can't be right, He's the Messiah, you thought, He's not going to die. Yet you get this nagging suspicion that perhaps you got something wrong.
You scour the scriptures, referencing every psalm, every reference, every prophecy. And what you find amazes you. You find two general sets of prophecies... the prophecies of a suffering servant Messiah, and that of a triumphant King Messiah. Jesus fit the suffering servant prophecies to a tee, but the triumphant King was much harder to see. Even worse, the prophecies bespoke of terrible things would happen to Him, things that could even lead to His death. He would be betrayed by those close to Him, sold for a slave, and would be bruised, beaten, and wounded. Marred beyond all sight. What does this mean? You ponder.
The seasons pass, and slowly, ever so slowly, you become a somewhat better man. But the concept of the suffering servant still haunts your mind. You give up lying and stealing, although there are times when you are still tempted to do so. You are put in charge of the money bag, which tempts your somewhat greedy nature; At times you even catch yourself pilfering from the disciple's meager treasury. You feel guilty about it but being a thief is second nature to you, and though you really seek to repent, old habits die hard. Besides, the Messiah didn't need any money, not really... He could make bread appear out of thin air if He wanted to, it will all work out.But despite your flaws, you felt yourself growing and become a better person, a better man, even as the rest of the Twelve. Your loyalty is firm and locked. Jesus is the Messiah, my friend and teacher, and I would do anything for Him, you think to yourself. Oh, if only you knew how those thoughts would haunt you when all was said and done.
Finally, the passover approaches marking approximately 3 years you've accompanied the Messiah on His journeys. You watch Him raise Lazarus from the dead, and see the reaction of the high priests who were there. You realize that the Sanhedrin will seek to persecute or kill your master, and you and the rest of the Twelve warn Him to stay away. But He gives you and the others the look of a determined King, and you just shrug. Once Jesus's mind was made up, there was no stopping Him. He spoke of His death yet again, and you didn't know what to say. Its gonna be the same as it has been the past two passovers, you think. He's not going to die, He's the Messiah. And yet, as you think that, a foreboding chill creeps up your spine.
You witness your friend ride into Jerusalem triumphant on a donkey as the prophecies foretold. You see Him grow more bold in the temple, and you feel excitement stir in your breast as your master finally seems set to take the Throne of David. Finally, you witness Him declare Himself God in the temple, and watch as everyone picks up stones, only to be unable to find Him. Excitement fills your breast and yet... the more as you ponder these things, the more that sense of dread begins to creep in. What about the rest of the suffering servant prophecies? Who will betray Him? You wonder.
As the passover draws closer, you find yourself wandering the streets of Jerusalem lost in thought. How would the suffering Messiah become the king Messiah? You know all the prophecies need to be fulfilled, and yet you know that one of your master's disciples will betray Him. Who was it, and why would they do it? None of them seemed like the type who would do it, but looks could be deceiving. Perhaps, a strange thought pops into your mind, the betrayal would spark the rise of the king Messiah, force Him to take up that mantle? As you are pondering this strange thought, you suddenly hear voices discussing your master. Curiosity gets the better of you, and you decide to listen in against your better judgement. It was a group of priests, who were complaining about Christ, some even seemed to be saying how they wished they could talk with Him.
On an impulse, you enter their location and introduce yourself. The conversation is pleasant at first and you discuss many subjects, but inevitably the discussion turns back to your master. Off handedly, you happen to mention to them that you are a friend of His, and they jump on your unintentional remark with a suddenness that you would normally find suspicious if your mind wasn't elsewhere. Their voices turn as sweet as honey asking how well you know Him, what He is like, and expressing how they just love his teaching, expressing just how much they would like to talk with Him in private, and saying that they actually do agree with Him but must keep up appearances in public so as not to alert the Romans. As an expert liar yourself, you know they are faking it, but for some strange reason, you find yourself agreeing with them. They say to you that they would support the Jesus covertly, but only if you were to arrange a meeting between them in private. You asked what they would give you in return for this favor, and they offered you 30 pieces of silver. Without even thinking you accept their offer and take the money. Blinded by the notion of the king Messiah finally making the hypocritical priests bow to their rightful High Priest and King you accept their money and walked out into the street. Five streets down is when you realized what had happened... you had accepted the payment of a slave. The words of the betrayal prophecies whisper in your mind as you stare at the 30 silver coins. You run back to try and give them the money, but the priests were already gone. You knew what had happened, but it was too late to turn back now; you had committed yourself. From then on, you were looking for an opportunity to bring Jesus to them, knowing full well what might happen. Its Gods will, you say to yourself. Its to force my Master's hand. He won't die; He's the Messiah. If I don't do it now, no one will. Everything will turn out all right in the end.
The rest of the time, you are nervous, and watching for the opportunity to bring your master to the priests. You have convinced yourself that this is for the greater good, but a knot has formed in the pit of your stomach, and that sense of foreboding still hangs over you like a cloud. You meet the gaze of your master several times, and in his piercing blue eyes, you think you can see the fact that He knows. Of course He knows. He always knows. He tells that one of you will betray Him, and as you and the others ask who it is, your eyes meet with His again. You know of a surety now that He knows. You know He can stop you. There was no anger in those eyes, and you can see a calm melancholy in them, as if He knows that you are doing what must be done. Knowing He can read your thoughts, you plead with him to stop you, to give you a reason not to go through with it, anything. But instead you hear a voice in your mind. "Do what must be done, Judas." It was a firm and commanding voice in your mind. As you start to get up, trembling, He says to you aloud "What you are about to do, do it quickly." You hurry from the room, tears in your eyes.
You hurry from the place and manage to find some of the priests. They gather up a group of guards and tell you that they will serve as an escort. You know they are lying, but you can't turn back now. You figure that they were ordered to kill you if you lie. By the time you make it back to room, your master had left. Thinking quickly you say that they must've gone to Gethsemane. You lead them there, and betray your Master with a kiss. The disciples scatter and flee and your master is unjustly arrested. He was betrayed by you for 30 pieces of silver. You weep, despite the fact that you are hoping it will be all right.
You are restless the entire night, as you dream of being stoned by your former friends and colleagues. In the morning you witness the trial of Jesus, expecting something miraculous to happen, but as He visits Pilate and is sentenced to be Crucified, your heart sinks in despair. He wasn't going to reveal Himself. He would rather die. You watch him suffer and die on the cross from a distance.
This wasn't what was supposed to happen, you rage at the heavens.
What did you expect, Judas the Traitor? A voice mockingly replied in your head. Did you really think that the prophecies wouldn't result in His death?
NO! You shout, tearing out your hair. You are depressed. You are in agony. You betrayed the man you swore to be loyal to till the end, and He died in vain because of you. Enraged you visit the priests and cast the silver at their feet. You run outside the city, tie a rope around your neck and sit on a tree branch. Your last words before you see black are "Father forgive me!"
That is just merely one of the possible stories of Judas. There are many more possibilities, as well.
The lesson I take from this story is as follows: Have faith in God, but pay attention. Question with boldness, but hold to the Iron Rod. Be willing to do what must be done, especially if the Lord commands it. Do not despair, there is always hope. Seek to do good and do right, and God will be with you. Repent regularly; you are able to determine your own destiny. And above all, ask yourself this question: Would you be willing to cast yourself into the deepest pit of hell or outer darkness, if you knew for sure that doing so would save at least one other soul? I think you'd find that those who answer yes may be the bravest and most noble of all of God's children.
If Judas hadn't committed suicide and witnessed the Savior's resurrection, would Christ have forgiven him? Knowing Christ, I think so... especially if Judas' role in the Atonement was required in order for it to function. It wouldn't be just NOT to at least offer him forgiveness under such circumstances, even though Judas would feel as though "it would be better that he had never been born."
Was Judas destined to betray Jesus? No, I don't think so... I suspect that if it wasn't Judas, then another one of the Twelve or someone else close to Him would've been the betrayer, and ultimately not much else would've changed.
Was Judas given all opportunity to avoid the betrayal? Yes, I think he was. However, I suspect that in his own mind at least, he thought that the betrayal was something that must have needed to be done. Whether or not that is actually the case, it mattereth not to me, save it be that I came to a similar conclusion simply through logical analysis.
Well, that's all I got for you guys now.
