Determinism

[Dusty52]

I'm not denying my natural urge to post anymore
But I think I will be more considered in my approach, maybe not as many
When I have ideas for posting they normally come in threes or fours but I will kerb my enthusiasm and will only post perhaps once a day
It would be useful to have a place on the site where we can write a draft post, tinker with it for a while and then post it at some point
Anyway to my post
We are told that God knows all things, there is not anything except he knows it (2 Nephi 9:20)
Does this extend to our lives? Does he know what we will choose and where we will end up?
I know free agency comes into that equation but what is the formula?

[onefour1]

I have thought about this in the past. If I had a dog whom I didn't feed until the evening, and then gave him his favorite doggy treats, I could predict with 99% accuracy that he will choose to eat them. I don't give it 100% because it may be that my dog is sick and doesn't want to eat and I am unaware of it.

With God, he would be aware of all other external circumstances and he would also know the thoughts and intents of my dogs heart. So with God it would be 100%. I don't find that KNOWING what someone will do with their free will to be determinism. Determinism implies that the outcome is pre-determined. I don't find that knowing what someone will choose to be determining what they will choose. It is simply knowledge of what they are going to choose. I believe that God does have the foreknowledge of what we will choose and where we will end up. However, I also believe that he takes a hands off approach and allows us to exercise our own free will.

There may be times when God interferes with man's will because he is God and will not allow wickedness to rule in His kingdom. He will maintain control over his kingdom and not allow it to be ruled by wickedness. If this means that He must interfere with others free will, then He will do it to maintain righteousness in his kingdom. Satan sought to overthrow God and his kingdom and God did not allow Satan to go through with his evil designs but cast him out of heaven.

[Dusty52]

I have thought about this in the past. If I had a dog whom II didn't feed until the evening, and then gave him his favorite doggy treats, I could predict with 99% accuracy that he will choose to eat them. I don't give it 100% because it may be that my dog is sick and doesn't want to eat and I am unaware of it.

With God, he would be aware of all other external circumstances and he would also know the thoughts and intents of my dogs heart. So with God it would be 100%. I don't find that KNOWING what someone will do with their free will to be determinism. Determinism implies that the outcome is pre-determined. I don't find that knowing what someone will choose to be determining what they will choose. It is simply knowledge of what they are going to choose. I believe that God does have the foreknowledge of what we will choose and where we will end up. However, I also believe that he takes a hands off approach and allows us to exercise our own free will.

There may be times when God interferes with man's will because he is God and will not allow wickedness to rule in His kingdom. He will maintain control over his kingdom and not allow it to be ruled by wickedness. If this means that He must interfere with others free will, then He will do it to maintain righteousness in his kingdom. Satan sought to overthrow God and his kingdom and God did not allow Satan to go through with his evil designs but cast him out of heaven.

I like the way you've explained this
It makes sense

[Michelle]

I don't think that God knowing, in any way takes away our agency.

All things are present before God.

If we are to become God, in a sense we always were a God.

If we are to become a son of perdition, in a sense we always were.

We are all human. Barring a disability, we will all go through certain stages in about the same order and within certain time frames: like learning to walk and talk. Our parents don't make us do these things. We choose to do them. Stopping us from doing them would require great effort and would be abusive.Our parents knowing we will learn to walk and talk doesn't make it happen. The don't even teach us how to do it (even when we think we do) except that we learn from observing their example.

I believe this is one of the reasons we are counseled to study the scriptures and pray. To know God, truly, is to become like him.

To not know Him is to fashion a false God, one we simply imagine, and follow ourselves to destruction.

[Original_Intent]

I have heard that all things are before God, he exists outside of time which, if true, is almost impossible to comprehend. But I have heard it explained that for Him it is not foreknowledge, he sees what we consider future events in His present.

[Original_Intent]

...stuffIt would be useful to have a place on the site where we can write a draft post, tinker with it for a while and then post it at some point
...more stuff

There is the program call Word and even notepad which is probably free on your computer.

[EmmaLee]

I have thought about this in the past. If I had a dog whom I didn't feed until the evening, and then gave him his favorite doggy treats, I could predict with 99% accuracy that he will choose to eat them. I don't give it 100% because it may be that my dog is sick and doesn't want to eat and I am unaware of it.

With God, he would be aware of all other external circumstances and he would also know the thoughts and intents of my dogs heart. So with God it would be 100%. I don't find that KNOWING what someone will do with their free will to be determinism. Determinism implies that the outcome is pre-determined. I don't find that knowing what someone will choose to be determining what they will choose. It is simply knowledge of what they are going to choose. I believe that God does have the foreknowledge of what we will choose and where we will end up. However, I also believe that he takes a hands off approach and allows us to exercise our own free will.

Well said. It's the same with our own children - we, as their parents, very often know what they will do in any given situation. Knowing that doesn't force them to do it. And that's just with mortals on this telestial earth with our veil being in place - imagine how much clearer things are for God!

[Dusty52]

...stuffIt would be useful to have a place on the site where we can write a draft post, tinker with it for a while and then post it at some point
...more stuff

There is the program call Word and even notepad which is probably free on your computer.

Are you joking originalintent
Don't you get it?
You didn't even bother reading my post
My point was having somewhere on the site to write draft posts!!!
Try reading before you comment!

[Durzan]

I have thought about this in the past. If I had a dog whom I didn't feed until the evening, and then gave him his favorite doggy treats, I could predict with 99% accuracy that he will choose to eat them. I don't give it 100% because it may be that my dog is sick and doesn't want to eat and I am unaware of it.

With God, he would be aware of all other external circumstances and he would also know the thoughts and intents of my dogs heart. So with God it would be 100%. I don't find that KNOWING what someone will do with their free will to be determinism. Determinism implies that the outcome is pre-determined. I don't find that knowing what someone will choose to be determining what they will choose. It is simply knowledge of what they are going to choose. I believe that God does have the foreknowledge of what we will choose and where we will end up. However, I also believe that he takes a hands off approach and allows us to exercise our own free will.

There may be times when God interferes with man's will because he is God and will not allow wickedness to rule in His kingdom. He will maintain control over his kingdom and not allow it to be ruled by wickedness. If this means that He must interfere with others free will, then He will do it to maintain righteousness in his kingdom. Satan sought to overthrow God and his kingdom and God did not allow Satan to go through with his evil designs but cast him out of heaven.

I like the way you explain this. My thought process is similar, except that I take a slightly different route.

I have long postulated that its actually impossible to determine the future exactly through observation alone (not necessarily through extrapolation and statistics though), because its constantly fluctuating based on choices and interactions of those choices. Heavenly Father's knowledge about our choices stems not from Him being able to see the future, but mainly from His absolute knowledge of how we think and act, combined with the ability to see all possible futures.

[larsenb]

I have heard that all things are before God, he exists outside of time which, if true, is almost impossible to comprehend. But I have heard it explained that for Him it is not foreknowledge, he sees what we consider future events in His present.

I agree with this. God's foreknowledge has more to do with His living outside of time, which indeed, is almost, if not wholly, impossible for us to comprehend with our finite minds . . . . coupled with His complete understanding of us.

[Original_Intent]

...stuffIt would be useful to have a place on the site where we can write a draft post, tinker with it for a while and then post it at some point
...more stuff

There is the program call Word and even notepad which is probably free on your computer.

Are you joking originalintent
Don't you get it?
You didn't even bother reading my post
My point was having somewhere on the site to write draft posts!!!
Try reading before you comment!

Yes, I was joking, actually.

[MMbelieve]

There is a progression of gifts of the spirit. For example, one who possesses discernment can very well also possess the gift of prophecy or prophecy would be next.

Quick to observe > discernment > prophecy

There are natural laws often beyond our view. When one has discernment they learn to see with spiritual eyes and as that is developed they begin to see the natural progression of events. This can be considered prophecy as it hasn't actually happened yet. This always has room for agency, but as agency is exercised differently, the outcome is naturally adjusted.

With God, this is easy peasy to see for each of our lives.

Hope this makes some sense.

[XEmilyX]

I think God can see all the ways our life can develop. Kindof Like how Dr. Strange (I think that's who it is)can see thousands of different ways things can play out.
And if we choose the right or left road God can tell what's down that road and help us adjust correctly.

Even Joseph Smith had another life path that he could have lived until his 80s! It was told about in the scriptures.
This debunks anything saying that God has a specific path that he basically pushes you onto.
You get to choose your result to your life.
Choose wisely.

[Durzan]

I think God can see all the ways our life can develop. Kindof Like how Dr. Strange (I think that's who it is)can see thousands of different ways things can play out.
And if we choose the right or left road God can tell what's down that road and help us adjust correctly.

Even Joseph Smith had another life path that he could have lived until his 80s! It was told about in the scriptures.
This debunks anything saying that God has a specific path that he basically pushes you onto.
You get to choose your result to your life.
Choose wisely.

DING DING DING, we have a winner!

Seriously though, this is essentially what I was saying earlier in this thread, just in language that the average person can understand easier.

God even told Joseph that he could be replaced by another. A specifically set future messes quite a bit with the Law of Agency due to the Determanism Paradox.

[brianj]

I am curious to learn more about how things are done. Based on my own inferences from things other people have taught me, I concluded that Heavenly Father sat down and put a tremendous amount of thought into His creation, deciding where and when each of us would be born to maximize the number of children who return to Him. But the more I think about it, the more disturbing this idea is to me.

This line of reasoning requires that people be chosen for exaltation or condemnation before birth. This means if someone who will become wicked enough to qualify for outer darkness were born in a different time and place, they may qualify for exaltation. It's obvious that some of us have been selected for blessings others don't receive. Some people are blessed to be born into the covenant to faithful parents who will guide their children to conversion, some are blessed to be put into situations that prepare them to accept the gospel and become converted, but most people are born into situations where they will not even hear of the fullness of the gospel in mortality. I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea that some people have been set up for failure so I wonder how it will all work out.

[ElizaRSkousen]

I believe in accidents, coincidences, and am actually not sure about the Greek idea of God being truly omniscient. I think compared to us He certainly knows all things.

I think there are places in the universe (or other universes) that he hasn't been, and intelligences that he hasn't met yet, and matter that has yet to be discovered/organized. So he wouldn't know those things yet.

[Michelle]

I am curious to learn more about how things are done. Based on my own inferences from things other people have taught me, I concluded that Heavenly Father sat down and put a tremendous amount of thought into His creation, deciding where and when each of us would be born to maximize the number of children who return to Him. But the more I think about it, the more disturbing this idea is to me.

This line of reasoning requires that people be chosen for exaltation or condemnation before birth. This means if someone who will become wicked enough to qualify for outer darkness were born in a different time and place, they may qualify for exaltation. It's obvious that some of us have been selected for blessings others don't receive. Some people are blessed to be born into the covenant to faithful parents who will guide their children to conversion, some are blessed to be put into situations that prepare them to accept the gospel and become converted, but most people are born into situations where they will not even hear of the fullness of the gospel in mortality. I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea that some people have been set up for failure so I wonder how it will all work out.

I believe many of the circumstances regarding our birth (when, to whom, where, etc.) are in fact determined by our pre-mortal experiences. Interestingly, it may be best for both the most righteous and most wicked to occupy the same place on earth and the lukewarm to be sent elsewhere together. The righteous would grow stronger, the wicked would seal their fates, and the lukewarm wouldn't totally be knocked down by either group.

I have no problem with thinking some were born to be good and some bad. Agency seems to have existed in the pre-mortal realm as well. While we may all be born with the veil, every child does not come as a clean slate. My kids all have their own personalities and we work with those. Yes, some are more prone to rebellion and others to obedience.
The trick is to get the rebellious to rebel against Babylon and put them firmly on God's side. Then to get the obedient to choose to obey God and keep them from following whatever strong personality happens by.

Judas was given every chance to not be a traitor, but he ran headlong into his chosen fate, and it wasn't because God made him do it.

[Durzan]

Judas was given every chance to not be a traitor, but he ran headlong into his chosen fate, and it wasn't because God made him do it.

Was he? That is an assumption made on our part, as the scriptures don't exactly give a whole lot of detail on Judas. And what detail there is obviously paints him in an unflattering light, which makes sense when you realize that the authors of the Gospel would view him as a scumbag out of grief and anger. I ask you this, if Judas didn't betray Jesus, then who would've? I don't think Peter, James, John the Beloved, Matthew, or Thomas would've even considered doing it. It may simply be that Judas actually realized on some level early on that Christ needed to be betrayed in order to complete His mission on the appointed day and the appointed time.

Perhaps he felt like he was the only one who could bring himself to do it, and was wracked with guilt the whole time. Perhaps the story of Judas is far more tragic than we are led to believe. Or perhaps he was exactly like we think he was, a greedy and heartless monster who sold out the savior for a quick buck.

Peter was told by the Lord that he would deny Him 3 times, and we give Peter the doubt. In fact, we have several different ways of viewing that event that paint that event in different manners both positive and negative. And yet, we view Judas as this horned devil, when Jesus clearly knew that Judas was going to betray them. Is it not possible to come up with similar manners and comparisons that frame Judas in a better light as well as a worse light? What is written in the scriptures isn't always the full story, nor completely and objectively truthful. In the Gospels, we are seeing the story of Christ's life through the lenses of four or more different men, and also through the lense of an approximate 2000 year gap between then and now. The perceptions of man are limited and do not always tell the full story, nor do they accurately portray all the events and details.

Its quite possible that Christ pulled Judas aside and told him He needed to be betrayed, and that Judas would be the one to do it. Judas then acts and reacts in a manner similar to Peter when he denied Christ 3 times. If this is the case, then we can compare and contrast Peter and Judas to one another and their reactions when all was said and done. Judas, so horrified at what he did, committed suicide even while knowing that it was needed and neccesary; while Peter was also horrified that he "betrayed" the Savior, but didn't give up and kept going.

[inho]

I ask you this, if Judas didn't betray Jesus, then who would've? I don't think Peter, James, John the Beloved, Matthew, or Thomas would've even considered doing it.

This is a part of the Gospel stories I've never understood. It seems like Jesus wasn't really hiding. Was it really necessary to have an insider to betray him? If they didn't want to arrest him in broad daylight, couldn't any random guy just have followed him?

[Durzan]

I ask you this, if Judas didn't betray Jesus, then who would've? I don't think Peter, James, John the Beloved, Matthew, or Thomas would've even considered doing it.

This is a part of the Gospel stories I've never understood. It seems like Jesus wasn't really hiding. Was it really necessary to have an insider to betray him? If they didn't want to arrest him in broad daylight, couldn't any random guy just have followed him?

Well there are prophecies that state that Christ would be betrayed. Its not a betrayal if some random guy follows them and exposes them. Betrayal has to come from those whom you are close to. Otherwise, its not a betrayal, but only a conspiracy. Thats why I said someone had to betray Jesus at the appointed time and place. Judas, I think, was the only one who was physically capable among the Twelve of performing this task. None of the others could even comprehend the possibility, nor bring themselves to carry it out.

[inho]

Well there are prophecies that state that Christ would be betrayed.

Judas was given every chance to not be a traitor, but he ran headlong into his chosen fate, and it wasn't because God made him do it.

Was he?

So because a prophecies you question if Judas had fair chance to not be a traitor? I dunno.

[Durzan]

Well there are prophecies that state that Christ would be betrayed.

Judas was given every chance to not be a traitor, but he ran headlong into his chosen fate, and it wasn't because God made him do it.

Was he?

So because a prophecies you question if Judas had fair chance to not be a traitor? I dunno.

Not that he had a fair chance, as I fully believe he had a fair chance. More like I believe he chose what he did in part out of necessity, because nobody else was willing to take up a needed task. Somebody had to do it, if the prophecies were to be believed.

[inho]

Well there are prophecies that state that Christ would be betrayed.

Judas was given every chance to not be a traitor, but he ran headlong into his chosen fate, and it wasn't because God made him do it.

Was he?

So because a prophecies you question if Judas had fair chance to not be a traitor? I dunno.

Not that he had a fair chance, as I fully believe he had a fair chance. More like I believe he chose what he did in part out of necessity, because nobody else was willing to take up a needed task. Somebody had to do it, if the prophecies were to be believed.

I don't know how someone like God sees the causality. But for me it just sounds that the cause and effect are the wrong way, if something will happen just because a prophecy. I would say that prophecies may be about things that are going to be happen, not that things happen because of prophecies. I haven't really think about this, though. This is just my first impression about the subject.

[Michelle]

Well there are prophecies that state that Christ would be betrayed.

Judas was given every chance to not be a traitor, but he ran headlong into his chosen fate, and it wasn't because God made him do it.

Was he?

So because a prophecies you question if Judas had fair chance to not be a traitor? I dunno.

Not that he had a fair chance, as I fully believe he had a fair chance. More like I believe he chose what he did in part out of necessity, because nobody else was willing to take up a needed task. Somebody had to do it, if the prophecies were to be believed.

I don't think so. I believe the prophesies are foresight, not fore-influence.

Your version reminds me of the criminal excuse: "Someone was going to do it and profit by it. It might as well be me." or a strange twisted version of a martyr. By your account Judas is on par with Christ, or just below him for "taking one for the team."

I think the true lesson is that none of us can be complacent in our efforts to be righteous. The line between good and evil is razor sharp and we must be very careful not to stumble over it. The good news is, God is not trying to trick us. He is on our side. He is clear in his message and exacting -for our benefit.

Genesis 4:

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

[BeNotDeceived]

141,

Good insight about the . Good practice is to feed your dog once a day, after you eat. This will let him know you are the Alpha. Feeding him haphazardly will confuse the poor fella.