Norwalk, CT, just outside NYC.
I had to drop everything and come home to WA State "immediately" towards the end of August of 2001 shortly after attending MacWorld Expo at the Javitts Center.
Apparently, by doing so, when "9/11(tm)" occurred, I got a call from the company I was working at the day afterwards and was told I had been removed from employment as one of the first cuts (probably because I was the furthest away). Our finance department was in one of the twin towers. We had just completed an Expo in WA DC not to much earlier in August.
I learned later I was in a deep state of depression for over a year afterwards. I was directly affected by the loss of life and destruction because many of those who were on the commuter trains from CT I visited with had worked in those towers.
God promised to keep me out of harms way. He has so far in my life.
If you were a terrorist...
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Col. Flagg
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 16961
- Location: Utah County
Re: If you were a terrorist...
Old Man (sorry to hear that by the way 
) Dalton:
I'd like to ask you 10 questions if you don't mind...
1. First off, have you not seen the photographs that show the molten metal? There are several that show huge chunks of metal glowing orange and yellow as it is being picked up by construction equipment, not to mention others that show a bright, red and orange pool (almost lava-like) flowing under the rubble. Many rescuers reported that the soles of their boots were often melting and had to move to other cooler areas to avoid having their feet exposed. I ask you... would you expect this from a natural building collapse?
2. How do you suppose that both towers collapsed at free fall speed (10-12 seconds) as if there weren't 80-90 perfectly in-tact floors beneath the impact points? If those floors were that weak, don't you find it pretty amazing they held up for 30 years?
3. As the towers are collapsing, steel and concrete are being turned into powder... disintegrating right before our eyes. If gravity alone can do this, why do demolition companies even exist?
4. Would you expect a building that just collapsed naturally to peel itself like a banana and create huge, billowing clouds of dust that enveloped all of lower Manhattan, which then traveled out over the Hudson River, as if a volcano had just gone off?
5. Do you not find it a problem that all of the debris material was loaded up and hauled to local landfills and sealed off from the public or shipped to China before a thorough examination of the steel could be conducted? This was the greatest crime on American soil ever perpetrated and authorities committed a crime by getting rid of all the evidence before it could be examined. This is a HUGE felony, but no one lost their job or was demoted because of it, just like with the massive failure of our air defenses, where those who should have lost their job due to gross incompetence and negligence were actually promoted or given the medal of freedom for crying out loud!
6. How do you find it logical (since you're using logic, I threw that in there) that steel beams from the towers, some of which weighed twice as much as a jetliner, could throw themselves hundreds of feet into adjacent structures and embed themselves like a knife in a stick of butter?
7. Would you expect to find hundreds of tiny human bone fragments on the rooftops of other nearby buildings from a natural building collapse of the WTC's?
8. How was it that rescuers and firemen couldn't even find so much as a chair, computer, table, desk or anything recognizable in the rubble, given the building had just collapsed 'naturally'?
9. How was a terrorist passport made of paper found in the WTC debris when everything else had been turned to powder and how did it manage to survive fires so hot that the buildings weakened and collapsed (according to the official fairy tale)? That must be some paper!
10. Why would explosions be going off in the basement of the towers before the plane impacts? If you are unaware of who William Rodriguez is, Google him and read his story.
) Dalton:I'd like to ask you 10 questions if you don't mind...
1. First off, have you not seen the photographs that show the molten metal? There are several that show huge chunks of metal glowing orange and yellow as it is being picked up by construction equipment, not to mention others that show a bright, red and orange pool (almost lava-like) flowing under the rubble. Many rescuers reported that the soles of their boots were often melting and had to move to other cooler areas to avoid having their feet exposed. I ask you... would you expect this from a natural building collapse?
2. How do you suppose that both towers collapsed at free fall speed (10-12 seconds) as if there weren't 80-90 perfectly in-tact floors beneath the impact points? If those floors were that weak, don't you find it pretty amazing they held up for 30 years?
3. As the towers are collapsing, steel and concrete are being turned into powder... disintegrating right before our eyes. If gravity alone can do this, why do demolition companies even exist?
4. Would you expect a building that just collapsed naturally to peel itself like a banana and create huge, billowing clouds of dust that enveloped all of lower Manhattan, which then traveled out over the Hudson River, as if a volcano had just gone off?
5. Do you not find it a problem that all of the debris material was loaded up and hauled to local landfills and sealed off from the public or shipped to China before a thorough examination of the steel could be conducted? This was the greatest crime on American soil ever perpetrated and authorities committed a crime by getting rid of all the evidence before it could be examined. This is a HUGE felony, but no one lost their job or was demoted because of it, just like with the massive failure of our air defenses, where those who should have lost their job due to gross incompetence and negligence were actually promoted or given the medal of freedom for crying out loud!
6. How do you find it logical (since you're using logic, I threw that in there) that steel beams from the towers, some of which weighed twice as much as a jetliner, could throw themselves hundreds of feet into adjacent structures and embed themselves like a knife in a stick of butter?
7. Would you expect to find hundreds of tiny human bone fragments on the rooftops of other nearby buildings from a natural building collapse of the WTC's?
8. How was it that rescuers and firemen couldn't even find so much as a chair, computer, table, desk or anything recognizable in the rubble, given the building had just collapsed 'naturally'?
9. How was a terrorist passport made of paper found in the WTC debris when everything else had been turned to powder and how did it manage to survive fires so hot that the buildings weakened and collapsed (according to the official fairy tale)? That must be some paper!
10. Why would explosions be going off in the basement of the towers before the plane impacts? If you are unaware of who William Rodriguez is, Google him and read his story.
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Col. Flagg
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 16961
- Location: Utah County
Re: If you were a terrorist...
Dalton... what think ye of this? The first photo is a massive military ordnance test in the desert and the second is one of the WTC's being demolished...
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Col. Flagg
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Re: If you were a terrorist...
Dalton... which one will hit the ground first? On 9/11, they would both hit at the same time. 
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Col. Flagg
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Re: If you were a terrorist...
Last but not least...
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Oldemandalton
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Re: If you were a terrorist...
[Norwalk, CT, just outside NYC.
I had to drop everything and come home to WA State "immediately" towards the end of August of 2001 shortly after attending MacWorld Expo at the Javitts Center.
Apparently, by doing so, when "9/11(tm)" occurred, I got a call from the company I was working at the day afterwards and was told I had been removed from employment as one of the first cuts (probably because I was the furthest away). Our finance department was in one of the twin towers. We had just completed an Expo in WA DC not to much earlier in August.
I learned later I was in a deep state of depression for over a year afterwards. I was directly affected by the loss of life and destruction because many of those who were on the commuter trains from CT I visited with had worked in those towers.
God promised to keep me out of harms way. He has so far in my life.]
Thank you, Robert, for the explanation. I am glad you were warned and able to get out.
[I'd like to ask you 10 questions if you don't mind...
1. First off, have you not seen the photographs that show the molten metal? There are several that show huge chunks of metal glowing orange and yellow as it is being picked up by construction equipment, not to mention others that show a bright, red and orange pool (almost lava-like) flowing under the rubble. Many rescuers reported that the soles of their boots were often melting and had to move to other cooler areas to avoid having their feet exposed. I ask you... would you expect this from a natural building collapse?]
Go to; http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html
[2. How do you suppose that both towers collapsed at free fall speed (10-12 seconds) as if there weren't 80-90 perfectly in-tact floors beneath the impact points? If those floors were that weak, don't you find it pretty amazing they held up for 30 years?]
From the millions of tons of Tower above. The top of the Tower acted like a giant hammer crushing everything beneath.
[3. As the towers are collapsing, steel and concrete are being turned into powder... disintegrating right before our eyes. If gravity alone can do this, why do demolition companies even exist?]
Only the concrete, sheetrock, wood, etc was turned into powder not the steel. Remember the wreckage?, twisted steel. Demolition companies take months to set charges. They expose all of the load carrying members in the building before placing the explosives and remove any debris that my turn into flying missiles when the charges go off. They want to make 100% sure that the building goes down without hitting any other building. In the Twin Tower collapse the top become a giant sledge hammer and crushes everything as it falls.
[4. Would you expect a building that just collapsed naturally to peel itself like a banana and create huge, billowing clouds of dust that enveloped all of lower Manhattan, which then traveled out over the Hudson River, as if a volcano had just gone off?]
Naturally. Everything was crushed and turned to powder as it fell. Have you ever did any demolition (using sledge hammers, crowbars, etc) or construction in your house. It creates lots of dust, it is everywhere. Now multiply this a million times over. The building is HUGE, of course there will be gigantic clouds of dust as the top crashes down and literally pulverize the building.
[5. Do you not find it a problem that all of the debris material was loaded up and hauled to local landfills and sealed off from the public or shipped to China before a thorough examination of the steel could be conducted? This was the greatest crime on American soil ever perpetrated and authorities committed a crime by getting rid of all the evidence before it could be examined. This is a HUGE felony, but no one lost their job or was demoted because of it, just like with the massive failure of our air defenses, where those who should have lost their job due to gross incompetence and negligence were actually promoted or given the medal of freedom for crying out loud!]
From ; http://www.911myths.com/html/recycled_steel.html
Many of the sites who talk about this like to emphasise the “speed” of the recycling operation. For example:
...the steel beams were quickly recycled before investigators even had the chance to look at them...
http://www.the7thfire.com/9-11/Pastore_ ... he_WTC.htm
Sounds suspect, right? But it’s also untrue. First, the steel wasn’t entirely cleared from the site until May 2002, not perhaps as quick as the claims suggest.
May 29 2002: As the last steel column of the demolished World Trade Center was removed Tuesday, construction workers at the site were honored for their work there since September 11th.
http://www.wndu.com/news/052002/news_14322.php
Further, the recycling did not happen “before investigators even had the chance to look at them”. Here’s Dr W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team, in his testimony to the House of Representatives:
"There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of the structures".
www.house.gov/science/hearings/full02/mar06/corley.htm
[6. How do you find it logical (since you're using logic, I threw that in there) that steel beams from the towers, some of which weighed twice as much as a jetliner, could throw themselves hundreds of feet into adjacent structures and embed themselves like a knife in a stick of butter? ]
That would be the force of the crashing and falling building creating missiles. Take a nail, stand it on its head, then hit it as hard as you can on the point with a hammer. Make sure that there are no kids around and wear safety glasses, because that nail is going to go flying somewhere! I would be surprised if this didn’t happen with the twin Towers!
[7. Would you expect to find hundreds of tiny human bone fragments on the rooftops of other nearby buildings from a natural building collapse of the WTC's?]
Unhappily, yes. Crashing building, bla bla bla, see above.
[8. How was it that rescuers and firemen couldn't even find so much as a chair, computer, table, desk or anything recognizable in the rubble, given the building had just collapsed 'naturally'?]
Again the crushing effect of the top of the building pulverizing everything below it. Giant hammer remember.
[9. How was a terrorist passport made of paper found in the WTC debris when everything else had been turned to powder and how did it manage to survive fires so hot that the buildings weakened and collapsed (according to the official fairy tale)? That must be some paper!]
I remember seeing paper littering the ground and falling from the sky. There is no way EVERYTHING was pulverized whether from a collapse OR demolition. Get real. Are you saying the passport was a plant? WHY? To prove that the plane was hijacked by terrorists? This is very illogical unless you believe that it wasn’t hijacked. If they weren’t hijacked who was flying the planes and where did the passengers go?
[10. Why would explosions be going off in the basement of the towers before the plane impacts? If you are unaware of who William Rodriguez is, Google him and read his story.]
From; http://www.911myths.com/html/william_rodriguez.html
William Rodriguez says he heard an explosion at the WTC "just seconds before" the plane hit.
Declared a hero for saving numerous lives at Ground Zero, he was the janitor on duty the morning of 9/11 who heard and felt explosions rock the basement sub-levels of the north tower just seconds before the jetliner struck the top floors.
He not only claims he felt explosions coming from below the first sub-level while working in the basement, he says the walls were cracking around him and he pulled a man to safety by the name of Felipe David, who was severely burned from the basement explosions.
http://www.nogw.com/download/2005_911_controlled.pdf
Our take...
We're not quite sure what the suggestion is here. Why would a bomb in the basement be required to go off as the plane hit? What's the point? It wasn't aimed to demolish the building, presumably. It increased the risk of detection, required more effort in planting and hiding it, careful timing, and yet (if there were bombs elsewhere in the building) would achieve nothing at all.
It might weaken the structure, you're saying? Why? The towers collapsed from the impact point down, not from the base. There’s nothing a bomb 90+ floors below could do to affect that. And remember, the very base of the towers were left standing. This part of the structure is all that remained, which is why a few people survived in the lower stairwells and basement levels. No sign of it being weakened there.
Still, that's another argument. Our first concern with Rodriguez is the way his story has expanded since its first hearing, reported soon after the attacks.
William Rodriguez worked on the basement level of the north tower and was in the building when the first plane struck his building.
"We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off."
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/new.york.terror/
Two rumbles, not explosions. Nothing about the location of either, and no suggestion of bombs. Has this been edited? Certainly the general accusation made is that the US media hasn’t reported Rodriguez accurately:
Rodriguez looked forward to his appearance at a closed-door hearing of the 9/11 Commission. "Up to that moment, I was thinking that they were going to do the right thing." He states that he started changing his mind as he saw how the commission did its work, and also when the American media edited out his testimonies about hearing bombs in the buildings, whilst the Spanish media did report it un-edited.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/ ... 56684.html
9/11 National Hero William Rodriguez . The last man out of the North Tower who in the North Tower saved hundreds of lives, but the 9/11 Commission and the Major Media hid his revealing testimony from YOU, the American people!
http://www.911keymaster.com
If the Spanish media did include the bomb claims at the time then that would offer Rodriguez some support: we look forward to someone providing a reference that supports this. But in the meantime, we can at least look at what Rodriguez has said elsewhere. For example, the CNN quote above came from a live interview on the afternoon of 9/11, which in full looked like this:
AARON BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: William Rodriguez (ph) is a maintenance worker at the Trade Center, I believe. In any case, he's on the phone with us now.
Mr. Rodriguez can you hear me?
WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ, MAINTENANCE WORKER, TRADE CENTER: Yes, I can hear you now.
BROWN: Tell me where you were when -- which of those two buildings were you in?
RODRIGUEZ: I work in building one. The one that got hit the first time.
BROWN: Tell me what happened.
RODRIGUEZ: I was in the basement, which is the support floor for the maintenance company, and we hear like a big rumble. Not like an impact, like a rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way. And all of sudden we hear another rumble, and a guy comes running, running into our office, and all of skin was off his body. All of the skin.
We went crazy, we started screaming, we told him to get out. We took everybody out of the office outside to the loading dock area. Then I went back in, and when I went back in I saw people -- I heard people that were stuck on an the elevator, on a freight elevator because all of the elevators went down. And water was going in, and they were probably getting drowned. And we get a couple of pipes and opened the elevator and we got the people out.
I went back up and saw one of the officers from the Port Authority Police, I been working there for 20 years so I knew him very well. My routine on the World Trade Center is in charge of the staircase, and since there was no elevator service, I have the master keys for all the staircase doors.
So, I went up with the police officer and a group of firemen. As we went up, there was a lot of people coming up, and while we got -- it was very difficult to get up.
BROWN: Mr. Rodriguez, how many time has taken -- has elapsed here in this, as you recount the events? Did it seem like hours, minutes, seconds? RODRIGUEZ: No, it wasn't hours.
BROWN: What did it seem like?
RODRIGUEZ: Well there was a big time, like a gap. There was a gap of time. I won't be able to tell you if it was 15 or 20 minutes.
BROWN: OK.
RODRIGUEZ: But there was a gap of time. We heard, while we were on the 33rd floor, I'm sorry on the 23rd floor, because we stopped there with the fire department because their equipped was very heavy and they were breathing very hard. They took a break because they couldn't continue going up. So they wanted take a break.
And we had a person on a wheelchair that we were going to bring down on a gurney, and a lady that was having problems with a heart attack, and some other guy that was bleeding hard. And we went a couple of floors up. While they were putting the person in the gurney, got up to the 39th floor, and we heard on the radio that the 65th floor collapsed. It collapsed.
BROWN: Mr. Rodriguez, let me stop you there at the 65th floor, and let me add you are a lucky man, it seems like, today. Thank you for joining us.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... bn.24.html
The “editing” claim doesn’t seem to apply here: it’s a live interview, and this is the statement Rodriguez offered. Which still contains nothing specific about timing or the direction the rumbles came from, no use of words like "explosions", not a hint of bombs. Why not?
And this appears to be an accurate transcript, too, according to a CNN clip we’ve seen. Download the 4.5 MB video to check it for yourself.
On the first anniversary of 9/11, Rodriguez was interviewed by CNN again. (He appears in the transcript as “unidentified male”, however as the presenter calls him Rodriguez, he calls himself “Willie”, says he was involved with maintenance and had the master key to the building, so his identity is clear):
On the subject of your friends, one of them is with you, a relatively new friend I know, William Rodriguez (ph). If Mr. Rodriguez (ph) is actually close enough, we've got a mike on him, just tell the story of how -- William, tell the story of how the two of you met.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no, we knew each other for many years. We work at the -- I work at the building. I personally in charge of all the stairs, of all the maintenance of the stairs in the building. And I knew David for probably 15, 16 years.
And at that terrible day when I took people out of the office, one of them totally burned because he was standing in front of the freight elevator and the ball of fire came down the duct of the elevator itself, I put him on the ambulance. And I came back running into the building. And the only person that I found there was Officer David Lim. And the first thing that he told me was, Willie (ph), do you have the key. Meaning if I had the master key to the building, which I have and I still have. It's over here. This is the key that opened all the doors on the staircase. It's called a T2 (ph) key. And he said let's go.
And we went up, he opened the door on the lobby. We went on the basement, number one. And there when we opened the door, the fire department was there waiting in front of the 50 car elevator, which was already gone, because the airplane, when he came through the building, broke all the cables and practically destroyed the elevator because the elevator went down seven flights of floors. And, he said to the -- to the firemen, follow me, we know the best way to go up and we have the access key. So we started going up the stairs and opening all the doors.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... se.48.html
Nothing about two explosions here, and an apparent acceptance that the fireball came down the elevator, not up from a lower level. Is this really all explained by “editing”?
Fast forward to October 21st, 2004, and now Rodriguez’ name is attached to a RICO suit against Bush, Cheney and more than 50 others, alleging (amongst many other things) that the WTC towers and WTC7 were destroyed by controlled demolition. You might assume that, as a supposedly key witness, Rodriguez would mention the explosion that he says preceded the impact. But we found no such references (check for yourself here). There is talk of a basement explosion, but pre-collapse, not pre-impact:
106. Jet fuel fires as the effective cause of the Twin Towers’ collapses are discredited also by seismic evidence. The Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York (in Rockland County, roughly 21 miles or 34 km north of the WTC) recorded seismographs on 9-11 that show seismic events at the beginning of the collapse of each of the Twin Towers. There was a 2.1 magnitude earthquake just as the South Tower began its 10-second collapse at 9:59:04, and a 2.3 magnitude earthquake as the North Tower began its collapse at 10:28:31...
107. The obvious difficulty that the seismic recordings present to the believer in the Official Story, however, is that, in addition to having the resources and the skill to pull off the hijackings and the flying of the planes into buildings, for the Official Story to be credible the hijackers had to have, first, obtained explosives sufficient to produce the massive explosions recorded. Then, they would have had to gain access to sub-basement areas of each building, some seven stories below street level. They would have had to know how and at what locations to place the explosives in advance of 9-11, so as to produce the effect of blowing out massive steel columns connected to bedrock.
http://www.911forthetruth.com/pdfs/Rodr ... ush%20.pdf
Why would a suit brought by Rodriguez not relate his personal experience, which surely was the most important piece of evidence he could bring to it? Does that seem plausible to you? And how does the explanation of “editing” his testimony apply here?
One defence made against these criticisms is that Rodriguez account is corroborated by others:
His eyewitness account, backed up by at least 14 people at the scene with him, isn’t speculation or conjecture.
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6625
This would of course be much more interesting if they were available for us to consider. However, it’s not entirely clear what they are corroborating:
It’s a story about 14 people who felt and heard the same explosion and even saw Rodriguez, moments after the airplane hit, take David to safety, after he was burnt so bad from the basement explosion flesh was hanging from his face and both arms.
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6625
Rodriguez story is about hearing two explosions, the first originating from below, the second from above. If other witnesses heard, felt or saw one explosion only then they are definitely not supporting him.
Of course, going back to his original account, we still have a pair of events: rumble one and rumble two. Is there a possible answer for this, other than bombs? Maybe so.
As you'll probably remember from watching the initial impact video, the first plane didn't explode on the outside of the building. It disappeared inside first, the explosion following a fraction of a second later.
Now, how is Rodriguez going to hear the explosion? He's a long way below, but plainly something like this is going to reach him through the air. The speed of sound is 767 miles per hour (http://library.thinkquest.org/19537/Physics4.html) at 20 degrees, which means it'll travel 1,124 feet in a second. That's a reasonable approximation of Rodriguez distance from the impact site, actually, so we'll live with it for now.
Except, to clarify, that's just sound through the air. Sound travels through steel more than 17 times faster, 13,332 mph (http://library.thinkquest.org/19537/Physics4.html), which means the impact sound (and related physical effects as the building flexes) could reach someone 1,124 feet away in under 0.06 of a second.
The 9/11 Commission reported another consequence of the explosion.
A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground
http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-302.html
This could provide a third source of sound and physical manifestations of an explosion, following immediately after the other two. Others say that the fireball couldn’t have caused such effects that far down, but there is some supporting evidence. Consider this from a worker below Rodriguez:
...the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and “sit tight” until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. “We smelled kerosene,” Mike recalled...
http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/un ... osions.htm
Kerosene? That would be consistent with an explosion caused by jet fuel.
Anyway, put it all together and we have something that looks like this.
The plane hits the building. The first sound and effects of this reaches Rodriguez potentially before the explosion has taken place.
The jet fuel explodes, the sound of the initial impact and this reaching Rodriguez through the air almost a second later.
Then we have the sound of the fireball shooting down elevators close to Rodriguez location. This would presumably occur virtually at the same time as the second, airborne sound, but would also be distinct from that (it would appear to come from somewhere else).
Mixed up in all this is the reaction of the building. Seismic records of the first impact show major movement for over ten seconds (http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/WTC_20010911.html) as the structure flexes from the initial impact. How would that manifest itself in the lower levels? Would workers there realise that any noticeable effects were separate from the other events, or would they tie them together, and think they were caused by (say) the fireball in the elevator?
It's important to note that we don't have the answers here. We don't know exactly how Rodriguez story ties in to the whole, which "rumble" relates to which event. However, it's plain that the first version of his story is quite different to the second. And as you see in the first quote, it’s expanding with details that he can’t possibly know, like explosions occurring “before” the airliner hit. He didn’t see the impact, that’s an after-the-fact interpretation. If this were a court of law then that kind of comment would be taken out, and we’d consider only what he experienced himself.
We're also not convinced that Rodriguez could reliably tell whether an explosion occurred above, or beneath him, especially if he's talking about the elevator fireball. And as the initial flex of the building, and impact sound, would have arrived through steel around a second before sound carried through the air. Perhaps there are other explanations here than "bombs in the basement".
I answered your, Col. Flagg, could you please answer mine:
These were the GOALS, as I see it, of the 19 terrorist’s and those who planed, trained and funded them. Being cave dwelling savages, CIA/Mossad/Military Industrial Complex/Committee of 300/LDGs or whomever. I do believe that it went beyond Bin Laden. They had too much help. The foot soldiers were the 19 savages with box cutters.
1. Hijack four airliners and ram them into 4 buildings thus destroying the planes and killing all the passengers and crews. If 100% successful cause a shut down and disruption of the airline and air cargo industry.
2. Strike at the military headquarters of the US military, The Pentagon, by ramming into it and causing severe damage, kill as many military officers and leaders as possible, and interrupt the Command and Control of the US military. This will be the first time that an over seas enemy will strike at a military OR civilian target within the Continental United States in more than a century!
3. Strike at the financial center of our country by ramming a plane into each of the Towers to cause maximum amount of damage and death to those who worked inside.
The Twin Towers was a landmark known around the world and was featured in many movies, magazines, and posters of NY City. Ramming a plane into each of them would tell the world that no one was safe anywhere in our country. In fact, after the attack many people working in other high-rise landmarks feared a similar fate for their buildings, such as the Sears Tower in Chicago. 50,000 people worked in the Twin Towers and another 200,000 visited each day. The goal was to kill as many as possible with the impact of the planes and the fire afterward.
4. Ram a plane into the Capital Building to kill as many Congressmen and Senators, aids and other national leaders as possible. This is the primary target of the attack with the most devastating effect for the US. This portion of the attacked could have wiped out completely or a large majority of 1/3 of the government of the United States. Our government would have come to a standstill! The President would have had to declare a nation emergency and called new elections for all those vacancies. Without the Legislative Branch it would have been so easy to take control of the government with just the Presidency and Judges.
This attack would have been greater than Pearl Harbor! These 4 goals reached would have certainly have brought us, “the wars, the Patriot Act, the torture, the Military Commissions Act, The John Warner Defense Authorization act, loss of posse comitatus, loss of habeas corpus, loss of freedoms, wiretapping, etc.” if not more!!
Only a fool would risk exposure to their secrete combination to bring down the Towers when they would have been severely damaged by fire and water as a result if the impact of the planes. The Twin Towers was not the Main Objective of the terrorists, it was the Capital!
Finally, Col. Flagg, the questions (sorry, I wanted to make sure you knew where I am coming from);
1. What do you believe were the targets of the 4 planes ?
2. Why choose these targets?
3. What maximum damage would you expect from a plane full of fuel do to each target?
4. What would be the reaction by a) the people and b) the government from the above targets being hit with maximum damage?
Please be as thorough as you can, Col Flagg. I enjoy this discussion we are having.
I had to drop everything and come home to WA State "immediately" towards the end of August of 2001 shortly after attending MacWorld Expo at the Javitts Center.
Apparently, by doing so, when "9/11(tm)" occurred, I got a call from the company I was working at the day afterwards and was told I had been removed from employment as one of the first cuts (probably because I was the furthest away). Our finance department was in one of the twin towers. We had just completed an Expo in WA DC not to much earlier in August.
I learned later I was in a deep state of depression for over a year afterwards. I was directly affected by the loss of life and destruction because many of those who were on the commuter trains from CT I visited with had worked in those towers.
God promised to keep me out of harms way. He has so far in my life.]
Thank you, Robert, for the explanation. I am glad you were warned and able to get out.
[I'd like to ask you 10 questions if you don't mind...
1. First off, have you not seen the photographs that show the molten metal? There are several that show huge chunks of metal glowing orange and yellow as it is being picked up by construction equipment, not to mention others that show a bright, red and orange pool (almost lava-like) flowing under the rubble. Many rescuers reported that the soles of their boots were often melting and had to move to other cooler areas to avoid having their feet exposed. I ask you... would you expect this from a natural building collapse?]
Go to; http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html
[2. How do you suppose that both towers collapsed at free fall speed (10-12 seconds) as if there weren't 80-90 perfectly in-tact floors beneath the impact points? If those floors were that weak, don't you find it pretty amazing they held up for 30 years?]
From the millions of tons of Tower above. The top of the Tower acted like a giant hammer crushing everything beneath.
[3. As the towers are collapsing, steel and concrete are being turned into powder... disintegrating right before our eyes. If gravity alone can do this, why do demolition companies even exist?]
Only the concrete, sheetrock, wood, etc was turned into powder not the steel. Remember the wreckage?, twisted steel. Demolition companies take months to set charges. They expose all of the load carrying members in the building before placing the explosives and remove any debris that my turn into flying missiles when the charges go off. They want to make 100% sure that the building goes down without hitting any other building. In the Twin Tower collapse the top become a giant sledge hammer and crushes everything as it falls.
[4. Would you expect a building that just collapsed naturally to peel itself like a banana and create huge, billowing clouds of dust that enveloped all of lower Manhattan, which then traveled out over the Hudson River, as if a volcano had just gone off?]
Naturally. Everything was crushed and turned to powder as it fell. Have you ever did any demolition (using sledge hammers, crowbars, etc) or construction in your house. It creates lots of dust, it is everywhere. Now multiply this a million times over. The building is HUGE, of course there will be gigantic clouds of dust as the top crashes down and literally pulverize the building.
[5. Do you not find it a problem that all of the debris material was loaded up and hauled to local landfills and sealed off from the public or shipped to China before a thorough examination of the steel could be conducted? This was the greatest crime on American soil ever perpetrated and authorities committed a crime by getting rid of all the evidence before it could be examined. This is a HUGE felony, but no one lost their job or was demoted because of it, just like with the massive failure of our air defenses, where those who should have lost their job due to gross incompetence and negligence were actually promoted or given the medal of freedom for crying out loud!]
From ; http://www.911myths.com/html/recycled_steel.html
Many of the sites who talk about this like to emphasise the “speed” of the recycling operation. For example:
...the steel beams were quickly recycled before investigators even had the chance to look at them...
http://www.the7thfire.com/9-11/Pastore_ ... he_WTC.htm
Sounds suspect, right? But it’s also untrue. First, the steel wasn’t entirely cleared from the site until May 2002, not perhaps as quick as the claims suggest.
May 29 2002: As the last steel column of the demolished World Trade Center was removed Tuesday, construction workers at the site were honored for their work there since September 11th.
http://www.wndu.com/news/052002/news_14322.php
Further, the recycling did not happen “before investigators even had the chance to look at them”. Here’s Dr W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team, in his testimony to the House of Representatives:
"There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of the structures".
www.house.gov/science/hearings/full02/mar06/corley.htm
[6. How do you find it logical (since you're using logic, I threw that in there) that steel beams from the towers, some of which weighed twice as much as a jetliner, could throw themselves hundreds of feet into adjacent structures and embed themselves like a knife in a stick of butter? ]
That would be the force of the crashing and falling building creating missiles. Take a nail, stand it on its head, then hit it as hard as you can on the point with a hammer. Make sure that there are no kids around and wear safety glasses, because that nail is going to go flying somewhere! I would be surprised if this didn’t happen with the twin Towers!
[7. Would you expect to find hundreds of tiny human bone fragments on the rooftops of other nearby buildings from a natural building collapse of the WTC's?]
Unhappily, yes. Crashing building, bla bla bla, see above.
[8. How was it that rescuers and firemen couldn't even find so much as a chair, computer, table, desk or anything recognizable in the rubble, given the building had just collapsed 'naturally'?]
Again the crushing effect of the top of the building pulverizing everything below it. Giant hammer remember.
[9. How was a terrorist passport made of paper found in the WTC debris when everything else had been turned to powder and how did it manage to survive fires so hot that the buildings weakened and collapsed (according to the official fairy tale)? That must be some paper!]
I remember seeing paper littering the ground and falling from the sky. There is no way EVERYTHING was pulverized whether from a collapse OR demolition. Get real. Are you saying the passport was a plant? WHY? To prove that the plane was hijacked by terrorists? This is very illogical unless you believe that it wasn’t hijacked. If they weren’t hijacked who was flying the planes and where did the passengers go?
[10. Why would explosions be going off in the basement of the towers before the plane impacts? If you are unaware of who William Rodriguez is, Google him and read his story.]
From; http://www.911myths.com/html/william_rodriguez.html
William Rodriguez says he heard an explosion at the WTC "just seconds before" the plane hit.
Declared a hero for saving numerous lives at Ground Zero, he was the janitor on duty the morning of 9/11 who heard and felt explosions rock the basement sub-levels of the north tower just seconds before the jetliner struck the top floors.
He not only claims he felt explosions coming from below the first sub-level while working in the basement, he says the walls were cracking around him and he pulled a man to safety by the name of Felipe David, who was severely burned from the basement explosions.
http://www.nogw.com/download/2005_911_controlled.pdf
Our take...
We're not quite sure what the suggestion is here. Why would a bomb in the basement be required to go off as the plane hit? What's the point? It wasn't aimed to demolish the building, presumably. It increased the risk of detection, required more effort in planting and hiding it, careful timing, and yet (if there were bombs elsewhere in the building) would achieve nothing at all.
It might weaken the structure, you're saying? Why? The towers collapsed from the impact point down, not from the base. There’s nothing a bomb 90+ floors below could do to affect that. And remember, the very base of the towers were left standing. This part of the structure is all that remained, which is why a few people survived in the lower stairwells and basement levels. No sign of it being weakened there.
Still, that's another argument. Our first concern with Rodriguez is the way his story has expanded since its first hearing, reported soon after the attacks.
William Rodriguez worked on the basement level of the north tower and was in the building when the first plane struck his building.
"We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off."
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/new.york.terror/
Two rumbles, not explosions. Nothing about the location of either, and no suggestion of bombs. Has this been edited? Certainly the general accusation made is that the US media hasn’t reported Rodriguez accurately:
Rodriguez looked forward to his appearance at a closed-door hearing of the 9/11 Commission. "Up to that moment, I was thinking that they were going to do the right thing." He states that he started changing his mind as he saw how the commission did its work, and also when the American media edited out his testimonies about hearing bombs in the buildings, whilst the Spanish media did report it un-edited.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/ ... 56684.html
9/11 National Hero William Rodriguez . The last man out of the North Tower who in the North Tower saved hundreds of lives, but the 9/11 Commission and the Major Media hid his revealing testimony from YOU, the American people!
http://www.911keymaster.com
If the Spanish media did include the bomb claims at the time then that would offer Rodriguez some support: we look forward to someone providing a reference that supports this. But in the meantime, we can at least look at what Rodriguez has said elsewhere. For example, the CNN quote above came from a live interview on the afternoon of 9/11, which in full looked like this:
AARON BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: William Rodriguez (ph) is a maintenance worker at the Trade Center, I believe. In any case, he's on the phone with us now.
Mr. Rodriguez can you hear me?
WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ, MAINTENANCE WORKER, TRADE CENTER: Yes, I can hear you now.
BROWN: Tell me where you were when -- which of those two buildings were you in?
RODRIGUEZ: I work in building one. The one that got hit the first time.
BROWN: Tell me what happened.
RODRIGUEZ: I was in the basement, which is the support floor for the maintenance company, and we hear like a big rumble. Not like an impact, like a rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way. And all of sudden we hear another rumble, and a guy comes running, running into our office, and all of skin was off his body. All of the skin.
We went crazy, we started screaming, we told him to get out. We took everybody out of the office outside to the loading dock area. Then I went back in, and when I went back in I saw people -- I heard people that were stuck on an the elevator, on a freight elevator because all of the elevators went down. And water was going in, and they were probably getting drowned. And we get a couple of pipes and opened the elevator and we got the people out.
I went back up and saw one of the officers from the Port Authority Police, I been working there for 20 years so I knew him very well. My routine on the World Trade Center is in charge of the staircase, and since there was no elevator service, I have the master keys for all the staircase doors.
So, I went up with the police officer and a group of firemen. As we went up, there was a lot of people coming up, and while we got -- it was very difficult to get up.
BROWN: Mr. Rodriguez, how many time has taken -- has elapsed here in this, as you recount the events? Did it seem like hours, minutes, seconds? RODRIGUEZ: No, it wasn't hours.
BROWN: What did it seem like?
RODRIGUEZ: Well there was a big time, like a gap. There was a gap of time. I won't be able to tell you if it was 15 or 20 minutes.
BROWN: OK.
RODRIGUEZ: But there was a gap of time. We heard, while we were on the 33rd floor, I'm sorry on the 23rd floor, because we stopped there with the fire department because their equipped was very heavy and they were breathing very hard. They took a break because they couldn't continue going up. So they wanted take a break.
And we had a person on a wheelchair that we were going to bring down on a gurney, and a lady that was having problems with a heart attack, and some other guy that was bleeding hard. And we went a couple of floors up. While they were putting the person in the gurney, got up to the 39th floor, and we heard on the radio that the 65th floor collapsed. It collapsed.
BROWN: Mr. Rodriguez, let me stop you there at the 65th floor, and let me add you are a lucky man, it seems like, today. Thank you for joining us.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... bn.24.html
The “editing” claim doesn’t seem to apply here: it’s a live interview, and this is the statement Rodriguez offered. Which still contains nothing specific about timing or the direction the rumbles came from, no use of words like "explosions", not a hint of bombs. Why not?
And this appears to be an accurate transcript, too, according to a CNN clip we’ve seen. Download the 4.5 MB video to check it for yourself.
On the first anniversary of 9/11, Rodriguez was interviewed by CNN again. (He appears in the transcript as “unidentified male”, however as the presenter calls him Rodriguez, he calls himself “Willie”, says he was involved with maintenance and had the master key to the building, so his identity is clear):
On the subject of your friends, one of them is with you, a relatively new friend I know, William Rodriguez (ph). If Mr. Rodriguez (ph) is actually close enough, we've got a mike on him, just tell the story of how -- William, tell the story of how the two of you met.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no, we knew each other for many years. We work at the -- I work at the building. I personally in charge of all the stairs, of all the maintenance of the stairs in the building. And I knew David for probably 15, 16 years.
And at that terrible day when I took people out of the office, one of them totally burned because he was standing in front of the freight elevator and the ball of fire came down the duct of the elevator itself, I put him on the ambulance. And I came back running into the building. And the only person that I found there was Officer David Lim. And the first thing that he told me was, Willie (ph), do you have the key. Meaning if I had the master key to the building, which I have and I still have. It's over here. This is the key that opened all the doors on the staircase. It's called a T2 (ph) key. And he said let's go.
And we went up, he opened the door on the lobby. We went on the basement, number one. And there when we opened the door, the fire department was there waiting in front of the 50 car elevator, which was already gone, because the airplane, when he came through the building, broke all the cables and practically destroyed the elevator because the elevator went down seven flights of floors. And, he said to the -- to the firemen, follow me, we know the best way to go up and we have the access key. So we started going up the stairs and opening all the doors.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... se.48.html
Nothing about two explosions here, and an apparent acceptance that the fireball came down the elevator, not up from a lower level. Is this really all explained by “editing”?
Fast forward to October 21st, 2004, and now Rodriguez’ name is attached to a RICO suit against Bush, Cheney and more than 50 others, alleging (amongst many other things) that the WTC towers and WTC7 were destroyed by controlled demolition. You might assume that, as a supposedly key witness, Rodriguez would mention the explosion that he says preceded the impact. But we found no such references (check for yourself here). There is talk of a basement explosion, but pre-collapse, not pre-impact:
106. Jet fuel fires as the effective cause of the Twin Towers’ collapses are discredited also by seismic evidence. The Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York (in Rockland County, roughly 21 miles or 34 km north of the WTC) recorded seismographs on 9-11 that show seismic events at the beginning of the collapse of each of the Twin Towers. There was a 2.1 magnitude earthquake just as the South Tower began its 10-second collapse at 9:59:04, and a 2.3 magnitude earthquake as the North Tower began its collapse at 10:28:31...
107. The obvious difficulty that the seismic recordings present to the believer in the Official Story, however, is that, in addition to having the resources and the skill to pull off the hijackings and the flying of the planes into buildings, for the Official Story to be credible the hijackers had to have, first, obtained explosives sufficient to produce the massive explosions recorded. Then, they would have had to gain access to sub-basement areas of each building, some seven stories below street level. They would have had to know how and at what locations to place the explosives in advance of 9-11, so as to produce the effect of blowing out massive steel columns connected to bedrock.
http://www.911forthetruth.com/pdfs/Rodr ... ush%20.pdf
Why would a suit brought by Rodriguez not relate his personal experience, which surely was the most important piece of evidence he could bring to it? Does that seem plausible to you? And how does the explanation of “editing” his testimony apply here?
One defence made against these criticisms is that Rodriguez account is corroborated by others:
His eyewitness account, backed up by at least 14 people at the scene with him, isn’t speculation or conjecture.
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6625
This would of course be much more interesting if they were available for us to consider. However, it’s not entirely clear what they are corroborating:
It’s a story about 14 people who felt and heard the same explosion and even saw Rodriguez, moments after the airplane hit, take David to safety, after he was burnt so bad from the basement explosion flesh was hanging from his face and both arms.
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6625
Rodriguez story is about hearing two explosions, the first originating from below, the second from above. If other witnesses heard, felt or saw one explosion only then they are definitely not supporting him.
Of course, going back to his original account, we still have a pair of events: rumble one and rumble two. Is there a possible answer for this, other than bombs? Maybe so.
As you'll probably remember from watching the initial impact video, the first plane didn't explode on the outside of the building. It disappeared inside first, the explosion following a fraction of a second later.
Now, how is Rodriguez going to hear the explosion? He's a long way below, but plainly something like this is going to reach him through the air. The speed of sound is 767 miles per hour (http://library.thinkquest.org/19537/Physics4.html) at 20 degrees, which means it'll travel 1,124 feet in a second. That's a reasonable approximation of Rodriguez distance from the impact site, actually, so we'll live with it for now.
Except, to clarify, that's just sound through the air. Sound travels through steel more than 17 times faster, 13,332 mph (http://library.thinkquest.org/19537/Physics4.html), which means the impact sound (and related physical effects as the building flexes) could reach someone 1,124 feet away in under 0.06 of a second.
The 9/11 Commission reported another consequence of the explosion.
A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground
http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-302.html
This could provide a third source of sound and physical manifestations of an explosion, following immediately after the other two. Others say that the fireball couldn’t have caused such effects that far down, but there is some supporting evidence. Consider this from a worker below Rodriguez:
...the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and “sit tight” until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. “We smelled kerosene,” Mike recalled...
http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/un ... osions.htm
Kerosene? That would be consistent with an explosion caused by jet fuel.
Anyway, put it all together and we have something that looks like this.
The plane hits the building. The first sound and effects of this reaches Rodriguez potentially before the explosion has taken place.
The jet fuel explodes, the sound of the initial impact and this reaching Rodriguez through the air almost a second later.
Then we have the sound of the fireball shooting down elevators close to Rodriguez location. This would presumably occur virtually at the same time as the second, airborne sound, but would also be distinct from that (it would appear to come from somewhere else).
Mixed up in all this is the reaction of the building. Seismic records of the first impact show major movement for over ten seconds (http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/WTC_20010911.html) as the structure flexes from the initial impact. How would that manifest itself in the lower levels? Would workers there realise that any noticeable effects were separate from the other events, or would they tie them together, and think they were caused by (say) the fireball in the elevator?
It's important to note that we don't have the answers here. We don't know exactly how Rodriguez story ties in to the whole, which "rumble" relates to which event. However, it's plain that the first version of his story is quite different to the second. And as you see in the first quote, it’s expanding with details that he can’t possibly know, like explosions occurring “before” the airliner hit. He didn’t see the impact, that’s an after-the-fact interpretation. If this were a court of law then that kind of comment would be taken out, and we’d consider only what he experienced himself.
We're also not convinced that Rodriguez could reliably tell whether an explosion occurred above, or beneath him, especially if he's talking about the elevator fireball. And as the initial flex of the building, and impact sound, would have arrived through steel around a second before sound carried through the air. Perhaps there are other explanations here than "bombs in the basement".
I answered your, Col. Flagg, could you please answer mine:
These were the GOALS, as I see it, of the 19 terrorist’s and those who planed, trained and funded them. Being cave dwelling savages, CIA/Mossad/Military Industrial Complex/Committee of 300/LDGs or whomever. I do believe that it went beyond Bin Laden. They had too much help. The foot soldiers were the 19 savages with box cutters.
1. Hijack four airliners and ram them into 4 buildings thus destroying the planes and killing all the passengers and crews. If 100% successful cause a shut down and disruption of the airline and air cargo industry.
2. Strike at the military headquarters of the US military, The Pentagon, by ramming into it and causing severe damage, kill as many military officers and leaders as possible, and interrupt the Command and Control of the US military. This will be the first time that an over seas enemy will strike at a military OR civilian target within the Continental United States in more than a century!
3. Strike at the financial center of our country by ramming a plane into each of the Towers to cause maximum amount of damage and death to those who worked inside.
The Twin Towers was a landmark known around the world and was featured in many movies, magazines, and posters of NY City. Ramming a plane into each of them would tell the world that no one was safe anywhere in our country. In fact, after the attack many people working in other high-rise landmarks feared a similar fate for their buildings, such as the Sears Tower in Chicago. 50,000 people worked in the Twin Towers and another 200,000 visited each day. The goal was to kill as many as possible with the impact of the planes and the fire afterward.
4. Ram a plane into the Capital Building to kill as many Congressmen and Senators, aids and other national leaders as possible. This is the primary target of the attack with the most devastating effect for the US. This portion of the attacked could have wiped out completely or a large majority of 1/3 of the government of the United States. Our government would have come to a standstill! The President would have had to declare a nation emergency and called new elections for all those vacancies. Without the Legislative Branch it would have been so easy to take control of the government with just the Presidency and Judges.
This attack would have been greater than Pearl Harbor! These 4 goals reached would have certainly have brought us, “the wars, the Patriot Act, the torture, the Military Commissions Act, The John Warner Defense Authorization act, loss of posse comitatus, loss of habeas corpus, loss of freedoms, wiretapping, etc.” if not more!!
Only a fool would risk exposure to their secrete combination to bring down the Towers when they would have been severely damaged by fire and water as a result if the impact of the planes. The Twin Towers was not the Main Objective of the terrorists, it was the Capital!
Finally, Col. Flagg, the questions (sorry, I wanted to make sure you knew where I am coming from);
1. What do you believe were the targets of the 4 planes ?
2. Why choose these targets?
3. What maximum damage would you expect from a plane full of fuel do to each target?
4. What would be the reaction by a) the people and b) the government from the above targets being hit with maximum damage?
Please be as thorough as you can, Col Flagg. I enjoy this discussion we are having.
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Oldemandalton
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Re: If you were a terrorist...
Dalton... which one will hit the ground first? On 9/11, they would both hit at the same time.
If the block above is lead and the bottom is card board, I would say at the same time.
If the block above is lead and the bottom is card board, I would say at the same time.
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pritchet1
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Re: If you were a terrorist...
Don't forget, the bombing of the tower(s) was done once before in 1991. It really didn't take that much to cause damage nor that difficult to accomplish.
As far as priming columns with thermite for destruction and doing remote control, that is a mature science. The key is getting someone who survived who did the prepping to admit it. I'm guessing they "disappeared", though I guessing they were perhaps among the bodies who were shot at Building 7.
http://www.wtc7.net/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ju ... bodies.htm
As far as priming columns with thermite for destruction and doing remote control, that is a mature science. The key is getting someone who survived who did the prepping to admit it. I'm guessing they "disappeared", though I guessing they were perhaps among the bodies who were shot at Building 7.
http://www.wtc7.net/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/ju ... bodies.htm
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Col. Flagg
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Re: If you were a terrorist...
OK...Oldemandalton wrote:Finally, Col. Flagg, the questions (sorry, I wanted to make sure you knew where I am coming from);
1. What do you believe were the targets of the 4 planes ?
2. Why choose these targets?
3. What maximum damage would you expect from a plane full of fuel do to each target?
4. What would be the reaction by a) the people and b) the government from the above targets being hit with maximum damage?
Please be as thorough as you can, Col Flagg. I enjoy this discussion we are having.
1. Both WTC's, the Pentagon and the Capitol (or White House). Although, what a coincidence that the plane which was supposed to hit downtown Washington, DC never made it to its target. Flight 93 was shot down. I don't think the plan was to ever have it strike downtown DC. The Pentagon hit had a purpose, but the 'Feds' saying Flight 93 was headed for the White House or Capitol helped to instill even more anger and the support of the people for any government response, considering what happened in New York.
2. Well, flying planes into the twin towers made it appear as though they collapsed because of plane impact and fire (at least to people with little to no understanding of the laws of physics) when it was the perfect cover to demolish them because they were huge financial liabilities AND it gave the LDG's a perfect excuse to implement their plan of American imperialism and wartime profiteering with defense contracts and involvement by the military-industrial complex. The goal: to begin seizing vital natural gas and oil reserves in the middle east before China, as well as the construction of a large oil pipeline (that the Taliban refused to allow through their territory before they were overthrown), beginning with Iraq and Afghanistan. War is big business. The reinforced section of the Pentagon was struck because that's where NCIS Auditors and Accountants had their offices and they were investigating $2.3 TRILLION in 'lost' transactions (money), in addition to thousands of cases of Wall Street fraud and the connection to Washington, DC. How interesting that here we are 7 years later in a dire financial situation because of rampant greed and corruption, with the Bush administration bailing out crooks, criminals and swindlers on Wall Street with taxpayer money... the evidence they successfully managed to destroy and/or cover up and hide for 7 years has finally come home to roost.
3. Simple... a lot of damage. However, to expect a complete disintegration and pulverization of 90 perfectly in-tact floors during a natural collapse that just so happened to occur at free fall speed, with no resistance from 90 lower floors... goes beyond absurd! Demolition has physics and science on its side... the 'government' doesn't.
4a. Shock, disbelief and then anger.
4b. Using what happened as an 'opportunity', something Bush even accidentally uttered once a few years ago.
Last edited by Col. Flagg on December 19th, 2008, 3:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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pritchet1
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Oldemandalton
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Re: If you were a terrorist...
Thanks Col. Flagg for the response.
[1. Both WTC's, the Pentagon and the Capitol (or White House). Although, what a coincidence that the plane which was supposed to hit downtown Washington, DC never made it to its target. Flight 93 was shot down.]
http://www.911myths.com/html/missing_engine.html
According to Popular Mechanics, the engine was around 300 yards from the main crash site, and had travelled in the direction the plane was moving.
Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... page=7&c=y
The Pittsburgh Pulp also got a quote from a weapons expert, regarding the debris you might expect to see if the Flight 93 engine had been hit by a missile.
Robert Sherman, a conventional weapons expert with the Federation of American Scientists who worked for the state department as former executive director of the Arms Control and Non-Proliferation Advisory Board, and also wrote extensively about F-16s and Sidewinder missiles, looked at the missile theories on flight93crash.com and deemed it "the usual paranoid crap."
"There was nothing there that gets me very worked up," he says. "Maybe [the plane] did break up. A crash is not a sanitary event. By definition, the uncontrolled impact of an airplane does strange things."
Sherman said that if a missile had hit Flight 93, there would have been more evidence. "If a Sidewinder had hit it, there would have been pieces of the fan or the fuselage in a larger area," he says. "If the engine breaks up, then the fan blades are going to come off like bullets. Pieces of the wing and fuselage would be all over the place."
http://web.archive.org/web/200411011905 ... tory.shtml
So why was the engine found away from the main impact point? We can’t say for sure, but it’s happened before..
American Airlines flight 587, for instance, crashed in New York in November 2001 when its vertical stabilizer separated in flight. The NTSB report said...
"The engines, which also separated from the aircraft seconds before ground impact, were found several blocks from the wreckage site".
http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2004/041026.htm
Of course we don’t know whether Flight 93’s engines “separated from the aircraft seconds before impact”, but this does show that distant engines don’t have to mean a plane was shot down. (Unless of course you want to contend that Flight 587 was shot down, although as both engines went astray this doesn’t look like a good explanation).
The Plane wasn’t shot down but forced down by the heroic acts of the passengers on Flight 93 who knew from family and friends, via cell phones, that they were going to be used as a missile to attack another target.
[I don't think the plan was to ever have it strike downtown DC. The Pentagon hit had a purpose, but the 'Feds' saying Flight 93 was headed for the White House or Capitol helped to instill even more anger and the support of the people for any government response, considering what happened in New York.]
Why bother with a fourth plane if it didn’t have a target?
Which would be more advantageous for the LDG to take out, the House and Senate, or the President? I believe it would be easier to control one man than hundreds.
[2. Well, flying planes into the twin towers made it appear as though they collapsed because of plane impact and fire (at least to people with little to no understanding of the laws of physics) when it was the perfect cover to demolish them because they were huge financial liabilities]
It wasn’t necessary to demo the Towers because the resulting impacts and fire from the planes would have resulted in the Condemning of the Buildings by city health and building inspectors anyway and the Owners would have cashed in on their insurance no matter if the Towers fell or not. It would have been easy to have this done especially with the corrupt officials in NY.
[ AND it gave the LDG's a perfect excuse to implement their plan of American imperialism and wartime profiteering with defense contracts and involvement by the military-industrial complex.]
How much further could the plan have been progressed if the Capital Building was struck with many Senators and Congressman killed? I believe the same reaction would have occurred if the building would not have collapsed. All those people in the upper floors would have died and the destruction horrific as is.
[ The goal: to begin seizing vital natural gas and oil reserves in the middle east before China, as well as the construction of a large oil pipeline (that the Taliban refused to allow through their territory before they were overthrown) , beginning with Iraq and Afghanistan.]
We didn’t cease a single oil well. I wished we had to pay for the War! BTW that’s why Georgia was attacked by Russia. We are putting the pipeline through there not Afganistan.
[War is big business. The reinforced section of the Pentagon was struck because that's where NCIS Auditors and Accountants had their offices and they were investigating $2.3 TRILLION in 'lost' transactions (money), in addition to thousands of cases of Wall Street fraud and the connection to Washington, DC.]
There was no reinforced "section". The whole building is made with reinforced concrete. (see above post). The US has so many books and criminal accounting practices that they didn’t need a plane to hide their “missing” funds. This has been going on for years. 9/11 didn’t do anything to change this.
[How interesting that here we are 7 years later in a dire financial situation because of rampant greed and corruption, with the Bush administration bailing out crooks, criminals and swindlers on Wall Street with taxpayer money... the evidence they successfully managed to destroy and/or cover up and hide for 7 years has finally come home to roost.]
I agree with you here Flagg.
[3. Simple... a lot of damage. However, to expect a complete disintegration and pulverization of 90 perfectly in-tact floors during a natural collapse that just so happened to occur at free fall speed, with no resistance from 90 lower floors... goes beyond absurd! Demolition has physics and science on its side... the 'government' doesn't.]
For the Towers collapsing at free fall speeds read this from;
http://www.911myths.com/html/freefall.html
Stage one in establishing this claim is to calculate the actual time it took for the towers to fall, but dust clouds obscuring the end of the collapse make this difficult.
Coming up with a final figure involves a degree of estimation, which is probably why the times you’ll find online range from 8.4 to 15 seconds..
The rate of free fall in a vacuum, at least, is easier to define. The towers were around 417 metres tall (excluding the spire), giving 417 = 0.5 gt^2, so with g = 9.8m/s^2 that gives a time of about 9.22 seconds. So if you dropped a ball off the roof, and there were no air resistance, then that’s the time it would take to reach the ground.
Now we have a basis for comparison. If the towers really did fall completely in 8.4 seconds, then that would actually be faster than gravity, requiring some major additional force to push from above (or pull from below). We’ve seen it suggested that explosives created a “powerful vacuum”, for instance, but that’s not apparent from the collapse videos and images. Like this one, for instance.
Large chunks of rubble, which are in free fall, are clearly falling faster than the rest of the building. The base of the massive chunk lower left is, what, 20 storeys lower than the top of the right-hand corner of the building? (And there may be rubble below that, and the building may be intact higher higher still). This suggests we should be looking at a collapse time greater than our 9.22 second freefall figure, not less.
How much greater? If the video evidence gives such a great ranges of guesses, then maybe another approach is required, at least as a crosscheck. We tried looking at the audio of each collapse, and came up with a minimum of 14 seconds in each case (see our South Tower and North Tower pages for more), and the potential for them to have taken several seconds longer. Calculating these times involves far too many judgement calls for us to claim proof of anything, but we do think it adds significantly more support to the 15+ seconds collapse time, and makes the 8.4 second end of the spectrum look particularly unlikely.
We can cross-check this by looking at the seismic evidence. Although often presented as supporting the shortest 8-point-something time, in our view there’s a case for arguing that this, too, indicates the collapse time was much, much longer.
And if you look carefully, then you will find some videos that also back us up. Here’s one indicating to us that the first collapse took more than 12.5 seconds.
Where people have quantified the collapse time they thought should have arisen, it’s not always helpful to the conspiracy case. D.P. Grimmer, for instance, believes the towers demonstrably fell in around 10 seconds, and has this to say about the time it should have taken in one scenario (if 30% of the gravitational energy of the collapse was lost in pulverising the concrete):
Now the observed time t = 10 seconds (a free fall time, the fastest possible time under g = 9.8 m/sec/sec = 32 ft/sec/sec = 32 ft/s exp2). For the cloud debris creation to absorb 30% of the gravitational energy, the observed time of fall would be 10s x 1.195, or almost 12 seconds. This long a collapse time was observed by no one. Clearly, there are serious flaws in the official explanation/conspiracy theory.
http://www.physics911.net/thermite.htm
So Grimmer thinks a 12 second time might be more reasonable, in the case he describes? Yet we (and others) suggest a collapse time of 15 seconds or more is more accurate, significantly longer still.
Of course the main issue is still whether each tower fell faster than it should have done in air, not a vacuum. Read more on this in an extremely detailed and interesting paper from Dr Frank Greening, which he’s kindly agreed to let us host here.
And in the interests of balance, check out the “Refutation of the Official Collapse Theory”. Be sure to pay attention to their calculations of collapse time, and the way the pancaking towers are assumed to come to a dead stop as each floor is hit.
[4a. Shock, disbelief and then anger.
4b. Using what happened as an 'opportunity', something Bush even accidentally uttered once a few years ago.]
Knowing this why did the LDGs bother with the risk of discovery during the recruitment, planning and execution of setting charges in the Towers when they were expecting; shock, disbelief, anger, and an opportunity without the added risk?
[1. Both WTC's, the Pentagon and the Capitol (or White House). Although, what a coincidence that the plane which was supposed to hit downtown Washington, DC never made it to its target. Flight 93 was shot down.]
http://www.911myths.com/html/missing_engine.html
According to Popular Mechanics, the engine was around 300 yards from the main crash site, and had travelled in the direction the plane was moving.
Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... page=7&c=y
The Pittsburgh Pulp also got a quote from a weapons expert, regarding the debris you might expect to see if the Flight 93 engine had been hit by a missile.
Robert Sherman, a conventional weapons expert with the Federation of American Scientists who worked for the state department as former executive director of the Arms Control and Non-Proliferation Advisory Board, and also wrote extensively about F-16s and Sidewinder missiles, looked at the missile theories on flight93crash.com and deemed it "the usual paranoid crap."
"There was nothing there that gets me very worked up," he says. "Maybe [the plane] did break up. A crash is not a sanitary event. By definition, the uncontrolled impact of an airplane does strange things."
Sherman said that if a missile had hit Flight 93, there would have been more evidence. "If a Sidewinder had hit it, there would have been pieces of the fan or the fuselage in a larger area," he says. "If the engine breaks up, then the fan blades are going to come off like bullets. Pieces of the wing and fuselage would be all over the place."
http://web.archive.org/web/200411011905 ... tory.shtml
So why was the engine found away from the main impact point? We can’t say for sure, but it’s happened before..
American Airlines flight 587, for instance, crashed in New York in November 2001 when its vertical stabilizer separated in flight. The NTSB report said...
"The engines, which also separated from the aircraft seconds before ground impact, were found several blocks from the wreckage site".
http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2004/041026.htm
Of course we don’t know whether Flight 93’s engines “separated from the aircraft seconds before impact”, but this does show that distant engines don’t have to mean a plane was shot down. (Unless of course you want to contend that Flight 587 was shot down, although as both engines went astray this doesn’t look like a good explanation).
The Plane wasn’t shot down but forced down by the heroic acts of the passengers on Flight 93 who knew from family and friends, via cell phones, that they were going to be used as a missile to attack another target.
[I don't think the plan was to ever have it strike downtown DC. The Pentagon hit had a purpose, but the 'Feds' saying Flight 93 was headed for the White House or Capitol helped to instill even more anger and the support of the people for any government response, considering what happened in New York.]
Why bother with a fourth plane if it didn’t have a target?
Which would be more advantageous for the LDG to take out, the House and Senate, or the President? I believe it would be easier to control one man than hundreds.
[2. Well, flying planes into the twin towers made it appear as though they collapsed because of plane impact and fire (at least to people with little to no understanding of the laws of physics) when it was the perfect cover to demolish them because they were huge financial liabilities]
It wasn’t necessary to demo the Towers because the resulting impacts and fire from the planes would have resulted in the Condemning of the Buildings by city health and building inspectors anyway and the Owners would have cashed in on their insurance no matter if the Towers fell or not. It would have been easy to have this done especially with the corrupt officials in NY.
[ AND it gave the LDG's a perfect excuse to implement their plan of American imperialism and wartime profiteering with defense contracts and involvement by the military-industrial complex.]
How much further could the plan have been progressed if the Capital Building was struck with many Senators and Congressman killed? I believe the same reaction would have occurred if the building would not have collapsed. All those people in the upper floors would have died and the destruction horrific as is.
[ The goal: to begin seizing vital natural gas and oil reserves in the middle east before China, as well as the construction of a large oil pipeline (that the Taliban refused to allow through their territory before they were overthrown) , beginning with Iraq and Afghanistan.]
We didn’t cease a single oil well. I wished we had to pay for the War! BTW that’s why Georgia was attacked by Russia. We are putting the pipeline through there not Afganistan.
[War is big business. The reinforced section of the Pentagon was struck because that's where NCIS Auditors and Accountants had their offices and they were investigating $2.3 TRILLION in 'lost' transactions (money), in addition to thousands of cases of Wall Street fraud and the connection to Washington, DC.]
There was no reinforced "section". The whole building is made with reinforced concrete. (see above post). The US has so many books and criminal accounting practices that they didn’t need a plane to hide their “missing” funds. This has been going on for years. 9/11 didn’t do anything to change this.
[How interesting that here we are 7 years later in a dire financial situation because of rampant greed and corruption, with the Bush administration bailing out crooks, criminals and swindlers on Wall Street with taxpayer money... the evidence they successfully managed to destroy and/or cover up and hide for 7 years has finally come home to roost.]
I agree with you here Flagg.
[3. Simple... a lot of damage. However, to expect a complete disintegration and pulverization of 90 perfectly in-tact floors during a natural collapse that just so happened to occur at free fall speed, with no resistance from 90 lower floors... goes beyond absurd! Demolition has physics and science on its side... the 'government' doesn't.]
For the Towers collapsing at free fall speeds read this from;
http://www.911myths.com/html/freefall.html
Stage one in establishing this claim is to calculate the actual time it took for the towers to fall, but dust clouds obscuring the end of the collapse make this difficult.
Coming up with a final figure involves a degree of estimation, which is probably why the times you’ll find online range from 8.4 to 15 seconds..
The rate of free fall in a vacuum, at least, is easier to define. The towers were around 417 metres tall (excluding the spire), giving 417 = 0.5 gt^2, so with g = 9.8m/s^2 that gives a time of about 9.22 seconds. So if you dropped a ball off the roof, and there were no air resistance, then that’s the time it would take to reach the ground.
Now we have a basis for comparison. If the towers really did fall completely in 8.4 seconds, then that would actually be faster than gravity, requiring some major additional force to push from above (or pull from below). We’ve seen it suggested that explosives created a “powerful vacuum”, for instance, but that’s not apparent from the collapse videos and images. Like this one, for instance.
Large chunks of rubble, which are in free fall, are clearly falling faster than the rest of the building. The base of the massive chunk lower left is, what, 20 storeys lower than the top of the right-hand corner of the building? (And there may be rubble below that, and the building may be intact higher higher still). This suggests we should be looking at a collapse time greater than our 9.22 second freefall figure, not less.
How much greater? If the video evidence gives such a great ranges of guesses, then maybe another approach is required, at least as a crosscheck. We tried looking at the audio of each collapse, and came up with a minimum of 14 seconds in each case (see our South Tower and North Tower pages for more), and the potential for them to have taken several seconds longer. Calculating these times involves far too many judgement calls for us to claim proof of anything, but we do think it adds significantly more support to the 15+ seconds collapse time, and makes the 8.4 second end of the spectrum look particularly unlikely.
We can cross-check this by looking at the seismic evidence. Although often presented as supporting the shortest 8-point-something time, in our view there’s a case for arguing that this, too, indicates the collapse time was much, much longer.
And if you look carefully, then you will find some videos that also back us up. Here’s one indicating to us that the first collapse took more than 12.5 seconds.
Where people have quantified the collapse time they thought should have arisen, it’s not always helpful to the conspiracy case. D.P. Grimmer, for instance, believes the towers demonstrably fell in around 10 seconds, and has this to say about the time it should have taken in one scenario (if 30% of the gravitational energy of the collapse was lost in pulverising the concrete):
Now the observed time t = 10 seconds (a free fall time, the fastest possible time under g = 9.8 m/sec/sec = 32 ft/sec/sec = 32 ft/s exp2). For the cloud debris creation to absorb 30% of the gravitational energy, the observed time of fall would be 10s x 1.195, or almost 12 seconds. This long a collapse time was observed by no one. Clearly, there are serious flaws in the official explanation/conspiracy theory.
http://www.physics911.net/thermite.htm
So Grimmer thinks a 12 second time might be more reasonable, in the case he describes? Yet we (and others) suggest a collapse time of 15 seconds or more is more accurate, significantly longer still.
Of course the main issue is still whether each tower fell faster than it should have done in air, not a vacuum. Read more on this in an extremely detailed and interesting paper from Dr Frank Greening, which he’s kindly agreed to let us host here.
And in the interests of balance, check out the “Refutation of the Official Collapse Theory”. Be sure to pay attention to their calculations of collapse time, and the way the pancaking towers are assumed to come to a dead stop as each floor is hit.
[4a. Shock, disbelief and then anger.
4b. Using what happened as an 'opportunity', something Bush even accidentally uttered once a few years ago.]
Knowing this why did the LDGs bother with the risk of discovery during the recruitment, planning and execution of setting charges in the Towers when they were expecting; shock, disbelief, anger, and an opportunity without the added risk?
-
AussieOi
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6137
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: If you were a terrorist...
OH YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!Oldemandalton wrote: Lets see, Bin Laden and Al Queda planed and carried out;
• 1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.
• 1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
• 1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.
• 1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
• 1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
• 2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
• 2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.
• 2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.
• 2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 11 German tourists.
• 2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
• 2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
• 2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.
• 2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.
• 2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.
• 2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
• 2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
• 2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
• 2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, housing compound, killing 17.
• 2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
• 2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.
• 2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,500.
• 2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.
• 2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
• 2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.
• 2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).
• 2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.
• 2005 (Oct.): 22 killed by 3 suicide bombs in Bali, Indonesia.
• 2005 (Nov.): 57 killed at 3 American hotels in Amman, Jordan.
• 2006 (Jan.): Two suicide bombers carrying police badges blow themselves up near a celebration at the Police Academy in Baghdad, killing nearly 20 police officers. Al-Qaeda in Iraq takes responsibility.
• 2006 (Aug.): Police arrest 24 British-born Muslims, most of whom have ties to Pakistan, who had allegedly plotted to blow up as many as 10 planes using liquid explosives. Officials say details of the plan were similar to other schemes devised by al-Qaeda.
• 2007 (April): Suicide bombers attack a government building in Algeria's capital, Algiers, killing 35 and wounding hundreds more. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb claims responsibility.
• 2007 (April): Eight people, including two Iraqi legislators, die when a suicide bomber strikes inside the Parliament building in Baghdad. An organization that includes al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia claims responsibility. In another attack, the Sarafiya Bridge that spans the Tigris River is destroyed.
• 2007 (June): British police find car bombs in two vehicles in London. The attackers reportedly tried to detonate the bombs using cell phones but failed. Government officials say al-Qaeda is linked to the attempted attack. The following day, an SUV carrying bombs bursts into flames after it slams into an entrance to Glasgow Airport. Officials say the attacks are connected.
• 2007 (December): As many as 60 people are killed in two suicide attacks near United Nations offices and government buildings in Algiers, Algeria. The bombings occur within minutes of each other. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, formerly called the Salafist Group for Preaching, claims responsibility. It's the worst attack in the Algeria in more than 10 years.
• 2008 (January): In the worst attack in Iraq in months, a suicide bomber kills 30 people at a home where mourners were paying their respects to the family of a man killed in a car bomb. The Iraqi military blames the attack on al-Qaeda in Iraq.
• 2008 (February): Nearly 100 people die when two women suicide bombers, who are believed to be mentally impaired, attack crowded pet markets in eastern Baghdad. The U.S. military says al-Qaeda in Iraq has been recruiting female patients at psychiatric hospitals to become suicide bombers.
• 2008 (April): A suicide bomber attacks the funeral for two nephews of a prominent Sunni tribal leader, Sheik Kareem Kamil al-Azawi, killing 30 people in Iraq's Diyala Province.
• 2008 (April): A suicide car bomber kills 40 people in Baquba, the capital of Diyala Province in Iraq.
• 2008 (April): Thirty-five people die and 62 are injured when a woman detonates explosives that she was carrying under her dress in a busy shopping district in Iraq’s Diyala Province.
• 2008 (May): At least 12 worshipers are killed and 44 more injured when a bomb explodes in the Bin Salman mosque near Sana, Yemen.
• 2008 (May): An al-Qaeda suicide bomber detonates explosives in Hit, a city in the Anbar Province of Iraq, killing six policemen and four civilians, and injuring 12 other people.
• 2008 (June): A female suicide bomber kills 15 and wounds 40 others, including seven Iraqi policemen, near a courthouse in Baquba, Iraq.
• 2008 (June): A suicide bomber kills at least 20 people at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
• 2008 (August): About two dozens worshippers are killed in three separate attacks as they make their way toward Karbala to celebrate the birthday of 9th-century imam Muhammad al-Mahdi. Iraqi officials blame al-Qaeda in Iraq for the attacks.
• 2008 (August): A bomb left on the street explodes and tears through a bus carrying Lebanese troops, killing 15 people, nine of them soldiers. No one claims responsibility for the attack, but in 2007, the army fought an al-Qaeda linked Islamist group in Tripoli.
• 2008 (August): At least 43 people are killed when a suicide bomber drives an explosives-laden car into a police academy in Issers, a town in northern Algeria.
• 2008 (August): Two car bombs explode at a military command and a hotel in Bouira, killing a dozen people. No group takes responsibility for either attack, Algerian officials said they suspect al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb is behind the bombings.
• 2008 (September): In its first acknowledged ground attack inside Pakistan, U.S. commandos raid a village that is home to al-Qaeda militants in the tribal region near the border with Afghanistan. The number of casualties is unclear.
• 2008 (September): A car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
• 2008 (November): at least 28 people die and over 60 more are injured when three bombs explode minutes apart in Baghdad, Iraq. Officials suspect the explosions are linked to al-Qaeda.
Pretty good for a cave dwelling, joker on dialysis suffer from diarrhea.LOL
Remember 9/11 was perpetrated by 19 men with only box cutters!
Seriously. you missed the killing of JFK, sightings of Bigfoot and Elvis' death from the list of Bin Ladin achievements.
And you have a license to drive? Heck, even allowed to have a gun license?
All that directed by one rag head fundo from a cave that no one has seen in 8 years. unblvbl.
and thats the best satan can come up with, nutjob fundo's with pot shots in market places in backward places no one has ever heard of.
"The Iraqi military blames the attack on al-Qaeda in Iraq." ROTFLMAO. what, you think they'd blame Mossad, or the CIA? or maybe it was this Al-quaeda? http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... qaeda.html
lets be real. your country killed more people in one day of B-52 bombing in south vietnam in 1967 ALONE, than all these "lets blame domestic terrorism" on al-queda attacks have caused since 2001.
In fact aerial bombing in afghanistan in one month in 2001 killed more peole than in the 9/11 inside job and all the other events added up.
you want to see it? read here http://cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
I think Honeywell is a good place to start when you want to see what satan works with.
maybe your stake president works as a systems engineer for a company like honeywell?
===============================================
Appendix 3. The Aerojet/Honeywell CBU-87 Cluster Bomb
The U.S. delivers approx. 14,500 land mines by 'air delivery' to Afghan civilians as part of 'Enduring Freedom'
Sunday, November 25th, Kalakan village. A farmer returns to his village in the evening and is killed as he walks on one of the CBU-87's 202 bomblets.
Tuesday, November 27th, village of Qala Shater near Herat, a 12yr. Old boy picks up the bright yellow soda-can sized bomblet, loses his arm.
The CBU-87, 1,000 lb. bomb was developed by the Aerojet General Corp. in 1983, which produced it along with the Alliant Techsystems Inc. [Hopkins, Minn.]. Today, the CBU-87s are assembled in an Army factory in southern Kansas, from parts supplied by Honeywell [Minn.] and Aerojet [Sacramento].
The 'mother bomb' carries 202 bright yellow bomblets [each the size of a soda can]. The mother bomb explodes about 300-400 feet above earth and the 202 bomblets are dispersed with little parachutes. They aresupposed to explode upon landing, but at least 5% do not. The CBU-87's 'footprint' is about 400x800 feet. One CBU-87 spreads bomblets over about three football fields. One B1-B 'Lancer' bomber can carry 30 CBU-87 bombs.88
To date [November 30th ] the US bombers have dropped about 600 CBU-87s upon Afghanistan. Assuming a dud rate of 12% , 89doing the arithmetic, this means there are about 14,500 unexploded bomblets littering the Afghan countrside and villages……akin to landmines.
================================
face the truth. WE ARE the bad guys. we are racist. their lives dont matter. we dispense death from 1000miles away and dont stay to see the consequences. we justify it by compiling lists of acts that some criminals (like the Skilling, Lay and Madoffs of the world arent criminals too right) inflict on other criminals in other parts of the world. and we sell them the tools to keep on doing it
satan is working both sides, we're just the pusher, the policeman, teh judge and the executioners, as well as the junkie.
i guess we dont like competition
-
AussieOi
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6137
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: If you were a terrorist...
oh hey there's no problem with feeling the love, i'm just hearing the rest of the demigod-like comments that people like this spout, and that scares me. D&C142Oldemandalton wrote:[only 3/4? what, not FULL? or 5/8ths.???
N.U.T.J.O.B]
Come on Aussie Oi, feel the Love.
-
Oldemandalton
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2226
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
Re: If you were a terrorist...
[And you have a license to drive? Heck, even allowed to have a gun license?
All that directed by one rag head fundo from a cave that no one has seen in 8 years. Unblvbl
your country killed more people in one day of B-52 bombing in south vietnam in 1967 ALONE
face the truth. WE ARE the bad guys. we are racist. their lives dont matter. we dispense death from 1000miles away and dont stay to see the consequences. we justify it by compiling lists of acts that some criminals (like the Skilling, Lay and Madoffs of the world arent criminals too right) inflict on other criminals in other parts of the world. and we sell them the tools to keep on doing it
i'm just hearing the rest of the demigod-like comments that people like this spout,]
I wondered how much of the truth fighting the lies would bring out the name callers and hate mongers. Truth trups lies everytime!
You may hate the USA but it is we who kept the Japanese from your shores. Even if the LDGs started the war. It was and are our boys fighting for freedom in far off lands. We are not conquerors. The only land we take is the land to bury our dead in. Our boys are fighting the “ragheads” because the Islamic militants have declared war on us. Just because they live in caves and mud huts doesn’t mean they are stupid. Their leaders are college educated and very intelligent. You have underestimated the enemy and that is the worst thing you can do in a war. It is very easy to cause terror. Look at the gunmen in Mumbai. They used small arms and grenades! How hard is that! The training was done by Pakistani Intelligence. The “rageheads” are the foot soldiers. Bin Laden is one of many of their leaders. The LDGs support them. We have to fight them just as Mediaeval Europe found out millennia ago. Islam wants to spread over the whole world again. They are committed. Just because the LDGs created the monster doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight them. They are their tool and must be stopped. The NWO could just well be Muslim as anything else. Do the LDGs really care?
All that directed by one rag head fundo from a cave that no one has seen in 8 years. Unblvbl
your country killed more people in one day of B-52 bombing in south vietnam in 1967 ALONE
face the truth. WE ARE the bad guys. we are racist. their lives dont matter. we dispense death from 1000miles away and dont stay to see the consequences. we justify it by compiling lists of acts that some criminals (like the Skilling, Lay and Madoffs of the world arent criminals too right) inflict on other criminals in other parts of the world. and we sell them the tools to keep on doing it
i'm just hearing the rest of the demigod-like comments that people like this spout,]
I wondered how much of the truth fighting the lies would bring out the name callers and hate mongers. Truth trups lies everytime!
You may hate the USA but it is we who kept the Japanese from your shores. Even if the LDGs started the war. It was and are our boys fighting for freedom in far off lands. We are not conquerors. The only land we take is the land to bury our dead in. Our boys are fighting the “ragheads” because the Islamic militants have declared war on us. Just because they live in caves and mud huts doesn’t mean they are stupid. Their leaders are college educated and very intelligent. You have underestimated the enemy and that is the worst thing you can do in a war. It is very easy to cause terror. Look at the gunmen in Mumbai. They used small arms and grenades! How hard is that! The training was done by Pakistani Intelligence. The “rageheads” are the foot soldiers. Bin Laden is one of many of their leaders. The LDGs support them. We have to fight them just as Mediaeval Europe found out millennia ago. Islam wants to spread over the whole world again. They are committed. Just because the LDGs created the monster doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight them. They are their tool and must be stopped. The NWO could just well be Muslim as anything else. Do the LDGs really care?
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Col. Flagg
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 16961
- Location: Utah County
Re: If you were a terrorist...
Oldemandalton wrote:[And you have a license to drive? Heck, even allowed to have a gun license?
All that directed by one rag head fundo from a cave that no one has seen in 8 years. Unblvbl
your country killed more people in one day of B-52 bombing in south vietnam in 1967 ALONE
face the truth. WE ARE the bad guys. we are racist. their lives dont matter. we dispense death from 1000miles away and dont stay to see the consequences. we justify it by compiling lists of acts that some criminals (like the Skilling, Lay and Madoffs of the world arent criminals too right) inflict on other criminals in other parts of the world. and we sell them the tools to keep on doing it
i'm just hearing the rest of the demigod-like comments that people like this spout,]
I wondered how much of the truth fighting the lies would bring out the name callers and hate mongers. Truth trups lies everytime!
You may hate the USA but it is we who kept the Japanese from your shores. Even if the LDGs started the war. It was and are our boys fighting for freedom in far off lands.
I wish this were true and even if it were, we have no business trying to force democracy down the throats of other nations who have never known it. The truth of the matter is that our brave men and women in uniform are unfortunately pawns in a giant chess game being played by the global elite and governments in their quest for control of earth's natural resources, not to mention wartime profiteering owing to defense contracts and the like. War is big business. If our soldiers were to ever discover the real truth about why they are in Iraq or Afghanistan, there would be a monumentous mutiny on a scale that would dwarf all others.
We are not conquerors.
Tell that to Bush and Cheney.
The only land we take is the land to bury our dead in. Our boys are fighting the “ragheads” because the Islamic militants have declared war on us.
Actually, we're over there helping wealthy men (who profit by defense contracts) prevent China from gaining access or control to middle east natural gas and oil supplies. It's a geo-political chess game that our military personnel are dying for.
Just because they live in caves and mud huts doesn’t mean they are stupid. Their leaders are college educated and very intelligent. You have underestimated the enemy and that is the worst thing you can do in a war. It is very easy to cause terror.
Then why hasn't so much as a firecracker gone off in this country since Sept. 11, 2001? Let's assume for a moment that the official fairy tale is true... are we supposed to believe that our 'government' has managed to stop every terrorist plot in the last 7 years when they were responsible for the largest known case of incompetence and negligence that lead to what happened on 9/11?
Look at the gunmen in Mumbai. They used small arms and grenades! How hard is that! The training was done by Pakistani Intelligence. The “rageheads” are the foot soldiers. Bin Laden is one of many of their leaders.
Do a little research on bin Laden and his past... you might be surprised, especially when you learn he was a CIA operative in 1989 during the Russian-Afghan war and that his family does business with the Bush family.
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Oldemandalton
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2226
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
Re: If you were a terrorist...
Thank you Col. Flagg for your reasoned response. Maybe you can teach AussieOi some decorum.
"Luke, don't give in to hate – that leads to the dark side."
[I wondered how much of the truth fighting the lies would bring out the name callers and hate mongers. Truth trumps lies every time!
You may hate the USA but it is we who kept the Japanese from your shores. Even if the LDGs started the war. It was and are our boys fighting for freedom in far off lands.
wish this were true (curious, which part is not true?) [ we have no business trying to force democracy down the throats of other nations who have never known it.]
The 9/11 attacks originated from the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. This was where the terrorists trained and planed the attack. Yea, Yea I know “it was the CIA/Mossad/ et al who planed, carried it out, blah blah blah” but they did it from Afghanistan. So we went in, cleaned out the sewer and changed the Government there.
[ The truth of the matter is that our brave men and women in uniform are unfortunately pawns in a giant chess game being played by the global elite and governments in their quest for control of earth's natural resources, not to mention wartime profiteering owing to defense contracts and the like. War is big business. If our soldiers were to ever discover the real truth about why they are in Iraq or Afghanistan , there would be a monumentous mutiny on a scale that would dwarf all others.]
Yes I agree with you here Col Flagg. We are like two dogs thrown into a pit by evil men. We must fight to survive not sit in the corner, waiting for attacks.
This is how I saw the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. I am looking at this in a purely military strategic equation leaving out the Secret Combinations we know exist. (Maybe this is how they sold it to Bush) There is a large swath of Jihadists, Evil Dictators, and Tyrants right in the center of the Middle East. Visualize this in your head. Starting on the Mediterranean coast you have Syria, Iraq , Iran , Afghanistan , and the tribal regions of Pakistan on the far west of this swath.
So as I see it there were 3 goals; 1) was to break up this swath by democratizing Iraq and Afghan. They were both easy targets and gave us cause. Afghanistan for harboring Bin Laden and the Taliban, Iraq for ignoring all those warning about the WMDs he said he had but didn’t. 2) Create allies that would help us fight against the terrorists within this swath of Tyrants and 3) Keep the control of the oil in sane hands.
[We are not conquerors.
Tell that to Bush and Cheney.]
What land, besides our bases, did we take from either of these countries? They are a fledging democracy now and are electing their own government, which may be good or bad depending. We are taking a gamble with giving them this freedom.
[Actually, we're over there helping wealthy men (who profit by defense contracts) prevent China from gaining access or control to middle east natural gas and oil supplies. It's a geo-political chess game that our military personnel are dying for.]
Yes it is a chess game. It is better for us that democracies keep the oil flowing than tyrants. Look how Russia is dictating terms to Europe with their oil and gas. Can you imagine if all the oil was controlled by someone like Amadinajad, Sadam, or China? That’s why we need our own oil and to wean ourselves from the Middle East.
[Then why hasn't so much as a firecracker gone off in this country since Sept. 11, 2001? Let's assume for a moment that the official fairy tale is true... are we supposed to believe that our 'government' has managed to stop every terrorist plot in the last 7 years when they were responsible for the largest known case of incompetence and negligence that lead to what happened on 9/11? ]
I know that you disbelieve everything that our government says. I don’t necessarily believe everything they say either. They do tell the truth occasionally. Two reasons why we haven’t had another 9/11. 1) Our Intelligence agencies have successfully stopped many operations and terrorist attacks. Maybe these are ones that the LDGs didn’t sanction. 2) Al Qaida and the other terrorist groups have been recruiting brained washed radicals from all over the Middle East to join them in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill Americans. Why come all the way over here when we have soldiers there in their own back yard. The Jihadists are spending lives of their foot soldiers AND leaders in those two wars at a horrendous rate. Thus, fewer to plan and less to come here.
[Do a little research on bin Laden and his past... you might be surprised, especially when you learn he was a CIA operative in 1989 during the Russian-Afghan war and that his family does business with the Bush family.]
I knew that Bin Laden was trained and supplied arms during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 80s. He and the other Jihadists were used as a tool against the Russians. As soon as the Russians were defeated we quite supplying them and discarded them like spent cartridges. They on the other hand never gave up their Jihad but set their sites on us instead. We created the monster and are now regretting it. Just because the CIA trained and supplied the Jihadists in the 1980s doesn’t mean they still do it today.
"Luke, don't give in to hate – that leads to the dark side."
[I wondered how much of the truth fighting the lies would bring out the name callers and hate mongers. Truth trumps lies every time!
You may hate the USA but it is we who kept the Japanese from your shores. Even if the LDGs started the war. It was and are our boys fighting for freedom in far off lands.
wish this were true (curious, which part is not true?) [ we have no business trying to force democracy down the throats of other nations who have never known it.]
The 9/11 attacks originated from the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. This was where the terrorists trained and planed the attack. Yea, Yea I know “it was the CIA/Mossad/ et al who planed, carried it out, blah blah blah” but they did it from Afghanistan. So we went in, cleaned out the sewer and changed the Government there.
[ The truth of the matter is that our brave men and women in uniform are unfortunately pawns in a giant chess game being played by the global elite and governments in their quest for control of earth's natural resources, not to mention wartime profiteering owing to defense contracts and the like. War is big business. If our soldiers were to ever discover the real truth about why they are in Iraq or Afghanistan , there would be a monumentous mutiny on a scale that would dwarf all others.]
Yes I agree with you here Col Flagg. We are like two dogs thrown into a pit by evil men. We must fight to survive not sit in the corner, waiting for attacks.
This is how I saw the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. I am looking at this in a purely military strategic equation leaving out the Secret Combinations we know exist. (Maybe this is how they sold it to Bush) There is a large swath of Jihadists, Evil Dictators, and Tyrants right in the center of the Middle East. Visualize this in your head. Starting on the Mediterranean coast you have Syria, Iraq , Iran , Afghanistan , and the tribal regions of Pakistan on the far west of this swath.
So as I see it there were 3 goals; 1) was to break up this swath by democratizing Iraq and Afghan. They were both easy targets and gave us cause. Afghanistan for harboring Bin Laden and the Taliban, Iraq for ignoring all those warning about the WMDs he said he had but didn’t. 2) Create allies that would help us fight against the terrorists within this swath of Tyrants and 3) Keep the control of the oil in sane hands.
[We are not conquerors.
Tell that to Bush and Cheney.]
What land, besides our bases, did we take from either of these countries? They are a fledging democracy now and are electing their own government, which may be good or bad depending. We are taking a gamble with giving them this freedom.
[Actually, we're over there helping wealthy men (who profit by defense contracts) prevent China from gaining access or control to middle east natural gas and oil supplies. It's a geo-political chess game that our military personnel are dying for.]
Yes it is a chess game. It is better for us that democracies keep the oil flowing than tyrants. Look how Russia is dictating terms to Europe with their oil and gas. Can you imagine if all the oil was controlled by someone like Amadinajad, Sadam, or China? That’s why we need our own oil and to wean ourselves from the Middle East.
[Then why hasn't so much as a firecracker gone off in this country since Sept. 11, 2001? Let's assume for a moment that the official fairy tale is true... are we supposed to believe that our 'government' has managed to stop every terrorist plot in the last 7 years when they were responsible for the largest known case of incompetence and negligence that lead to what happened on 9/11? ]
I know that you disbelieve everything that our government says. I don’t necessarily believe everything they say either. They do tell the truth occasionally.
Two reasons why we haven’t had another 9/11. 1) Our Intelligence agencies have successfully stopped many operations and terrorist attacks. Maybe these are ones that the LDGs didn’t sanction. 2) Al Qaida and the other terrorist groups have been recruiting brained washed radicals from all over the Middle East to join them in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill Americans. Why come all the way over here when we have soldiers there in their own back yard. The Jihadists are spending lives of their foot soldiers AND leaders in those two wars at a horrendous rate. Thus, fewer to plan and less to come here.[Do a little research on bin Laden and his past... you might be surprised, especially when you learn he was a CIA operative in 1989 during the Russian-Afghan war and that his family does business with the Bush family.]
I knew that Bin Laden was trained and supplied arms during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 80s. He and the other Jihadists were used as a tool against the Russians. As soon as the Russians were defeated we quite supplying them and discarded them like spent cartridges. They on the other hand never gave up their Jihad but set their sites on us instead. We created the monster and are now regretting it. Just because the CIA trained and supplied the Jihadists in the 1980s doesn’t mean they still do it today.
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Col. Flagg
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 16961
- Location: Utah County
Re: If you were a terrorist...
Oldemandalton wrote:Thank you Col. Flagg for your reasoned response. Maybe you can teach AussieOi some decorum.
Happy to reply. Aussie is a lost cause!
"Luke, don't give in to hate – that leads to the dark side."
[I wondered how much of the truth fighting the lies would bring out the name callers and hate mongers. Truth trumps lies every time!
You may hate the USA but it is we who kept the Japanese from your shores. Even if the LDGs started the war. It was and are our boys fighting for freedom in far off lands.
wish this were true (curious, which part is not true?)
Our boys are not fighting for freedom for others in foreign lands... they're fighting to enrich a select group of men who profit from military, defense, oil and gas contracts, not to mention construction contracts as well (Halliburton). Anyone who believes we are in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring freedom and democracy to the people are simply naive and uninformed about what's really going on. The last thing Bush & Cheney care about is freedom for other people in foreign lands.
[ we have no business trying to force democracy down the throats of other nations who have never known it.]
The 9/11 attacks originated from the Taliban controlled Afghanistan. This was where the terrorists trained and planed the attack. Yea, Yea I know “it was the CIA/Mossad/ et al who planed, carried it out, blah blah blah” but they did it from Afghanistan. So we went in, cleaned out the sewer and changed the Government there.
You must have missed my post about why we're in Afghanistan. In the spring of 2001, the Taliban came to Washington, DC to discuss with our 'government' the details and terms of the construction of a large oil and gas pipeline through their territory to the caspain Sea in order to tap into the vast reserves under the sea floor. The Taliban reportedly wanted too much in the way of favors, privelages and compensation and so they left Washington, DC with no agreement and the deal was off the table. Six months later, 9/11 happened, we went over to Afghanistan, toppled the Taliban government and the way was paved. In addition, do you know how vital Afghanistan's opium crop is to Wall Street? When the Taliban were in control, they had cracked down on poppy seed growth and opium production, but now it is thriving and they are seeing record levels of opium production.
[ The truth of the matter is that our brave men and women in uniform are unfortunately pawns in a giant chess game being played by the global elite and governments in their quest for control of earth's natural resources, not to mention wartime profiteering owing to defense contracts and the like. War is big business. If our soldiers were to ever discover the real truth about why they are in Iraq or Afghanistan , there would be a monumentous mutiny on a scale that would dwarf all others.]
Yes I agree with you here Col Flagg. We are like two dogs thrown into a pit by evil men. We must fight to survive not sit in the corner, waiting for attacks.
This is how I saw the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. I am looking at this in a purely military strategic equation leaving out the Secret Combinations we know exist. (Maybe this is how they sold it to Bush) There is a large swath of Jihadists, Evil Dictators, and Tyrants right in the center of the Middle East. Visualize this in your head. Starting on the Mediterranean coast you have Syria, Iraq , Iran , Afghanistan , and the tribal regions of Pakistan on the far west of this swath.
So as I see it there were 3 goals; 1) was to break up this swath by democratizing Iraq and Afghan. They were both easy targets and gave us cause. Afghanistan for harboring Bin Laden and the Taliban, Iraq for ignoring all those warning about the WMDs he said he had but didn’t. 2) Create allies that would help us fight against the terrorists within this swath of Tyrants and 3) Keep the control of the oil in sane hands.
Saddam had become independent and was no longer doing the bidding of his western masters who had managed to help him gain power back in 1979. Are you aware of the truth behind Gulf War I? The reason Saddam invaded Kuwait had to do with the fact that they were stealing Iraqi oil by slant drilling into Iraq's oil fields. Of course, we were all told it was because evil 'ole Saddam simply decided to invade Kuwait and had to be stopped. The 'war on terror' is absurd! How do you defeat an ideology??? You can't! Terrorists are all over the place throughout the world... they're not just in the middle east and they all have different agendas, motives, financing, numbers, etc. What are we going to do... invade every nation on earth where there are known terrorists? If so, McCain wasn't kidding when he said the 'war on terror' will last 100 years!!! My friend... ulterior motives such as profiteering, power and control are what drives the 'war on terror' propaganda machine... not a desire to rid planet earth of terrorists because they know it is impossible, but they've managed to get the public to buy it, which goes to show how apathetic and dumbed-down America is. Truth is always stranger than fiction isn't it?
[We are not conquerors.
Tell that to Bush and Cheney.]
What land, besides our bases, did we take from either of these countries? They are a fledging democracy now and are electing their own government, which may be good or bad depending. We are taking a gamble with giving them this freedom.
Come on... do you know who Hamid Karzai (Afghanistan's new 'president') is? He used to be a big wig for Unocal, one of the biggest petroleum exploration companies on the planet until they merged with Chevron in 2005. Iraq's 'government' was installed by the U.S. to be pro-western... don't kid yourself. Elections in Iraq? Like the people knew or know who they were voting for!
[Actually, we're over there helping wealthy men (who profit by defense contracts) prevent China from gaining access or control to middle east natural gas and oil supplies. It's a geo-political chess game that our military personnel are dying for.]
Yes it is a chess game. It is better for us that democracies keep the oil flowing than tyrants.
The term 'democracy' is used very effectively as the justification for the real reason we are in Iraq, which is setting up permanent bases, establishing and dividing up future oil contracts for private companies and defense spending for the enrichment of the U.S. military-industrial complex, as well as maintaining a presence for Israel. Have you seen the embassy we just built over there?
Look how Russia is dictating terms to Europe with their oil and gas. Can you imagine if all the oil was controlled by someone like Amadinajad, Sadam, or China? That’s why we need our own oil and to wean ourselves from the Middle East.
Too much money has changed hands and too many deals have been struck for the U.S. to become independent of foreign oil anytime soon I am sad to say. Why else would our 'government' prevent oil exploration in our own nation??? Environmentalists? Hardly.
[Then why hasn't so much as a firecracker gone off in this country since Sept. 11, 2001? Let's assume for a moment that the official fairy tale is true... are we supposed to believe that our 'government' has managed to stop every terrorist plot in the last 7 years when they were responsible for the largest known case of incompetence and negligence that lead to what happened on 9/11? ]
I know that you disbelieve everything that our government says. I don’t necessarily believe everything they say either. They do tell the truth occasionally.
This is true (to a small extent). However, many nations have a history of government sponsored terror, a lot of which involves intelligence agencies carrying out these false flag events in order to achieve some military or political agenda or goal.
Maybe these are ones that the LDGs didn’t sanction. 2) Al Qaida and the other terrorist groups have been recruiting brained washed radicals from all over the Middle East to join them in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill Americans.
Wouldn't you be pretty ticked off if Arabs had done to us what the U.S. has done to them since 1991? We've been meddling in their affairs for a long time and attempting to install our ideals and philosophies on them while at the same time usurping authority and controlling what goes on over there because of our military might and geo-political agendas.
Why come all the way over here when we have soldiers there in their own back yard. The Jihadists are spending lives of their foot soldiers AND leaders in those two wars at a horrendous rate. Thus, fewer to plan and less to come here.
[Do a little research on bin Laden and his past... you might be surprised, especially when you learn he was a CIA operative in 1989 during the Russian-Afghan war and that his family does business with the Bush family.]
I knew that Bin Laden was trained and supplied arms during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 80s. He and the other Jihadists were used as a tool against the Russians. As soon as the Russians were defeated we quite supplying them and discarded them like spent cartridges. They on the other hand never gave up their Jihad but set their sites on us instead. We created the monster
Like Saddam?
and are now regretting it. Just because the CIA trained and supplied the Jihadists in the 1980s doesn’t mean they still do it today.
The CIA knew all about and helped the 9/11 hijackers as they were going through flight training school here in the U.S. ...
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/05/21/phoenix.memo/
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lundbaek
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11123
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Re: If you were a terrorist...
Now I've got to jump into a discussion I wanted no part of, but I'll not have the Australians belittled Re their participation in WW2. Australian armed forces, all of them, were into WW2 long before December 1941, when the FDR maneuvered the USA into the big brawl. Australians were fighting in big numbers in the North African desert and other places maybe Aussie knows of before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour and the Philippines. Australian forces that were still in Australia and those called up later contributed substantially to some major campaigns in the Pacific. If Americans are to be credited with saving Australia from the Japanese, then Australians are to be credited with at least softening up the Germans and Italians in North Africa before the Americans got there.
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pritchet1
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3600
Re: If you were a terrorist...
And don't forget their efforts in the Gulf War -
http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/gulf ... rmain.html
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-con ... lf_war.htm
http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/gulf ... rmain.html
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-con ... lf_war.htm
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Oldemandalton
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2226
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
Re: If you were a terrorist...
[Now I've got to jump into a discussion I wanted no part of, but I'll not have the Australians belittled Re their participation in WW2. Australian armed forces, all of them, were into WW2 long before December 1941, when the FDR maneuvered the USA into the big brawl. Australians were fighting in big numbers in the North African desert and other places maybe Aussie knows of before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour and the Philippines. Australian forces that were still in Australia and those called up later contributed substantially to some major campaigns in the Pacific. If Americans are to be credited with saving Australia from the Japanese, then Australians are to be credited with at least softening up the Germans and Italians in North Africa before the Americans got there.]
I think you misunderstood Robert. I admire the bravery of ALL those who fought and STILL fight for freedom around the world. It is not I who belittle and insult those brave men who stand up to the tyranny then AND NOW. The Australian, New Zealanders, British, and Canadians were in WW II before we finally got in. PLUS they are about the only ones with enough manhood to stand up with us to fight one of the modern threats of today, Islamic Jihadists, who are the more dangerous because small minded sheeple believe they are no threat. I was pointing out to Aussie that he should not be belittling our brave boys because without them Europe would be speaking German and most of Asia, Japanese. Be assured, Robert, I admire the Greatest Generation and all they accomplished. We may be known as the Worst Generation if we don’t fight the LDGs AND their creation, the Jihadists. Keep throwing the hate of Bush/Chaney/CIA/US Military around and we will all fall into the hands of the LDGs. We have way too many dangers in this world that are more important than to go around blaming every odd event on the boogie men of today; Bush, Chaney, CIA, Military Industrial Complex, blah, blah, blah. While you waste your time with your myths, the real Gadiantons are laughing at you guys and doing their work without opposition. Stop wasting your time on Conspiracies Myths. There are other gospel subjects besides the Secret Combinations and Gadiantons. We know they exist, got it. Where has it gotten us but closer to the NWO? Ever see a magic show? The trick is to distract the audience and use smoke and mirrors. This way they won’t know how the beautiful assistant disappears and then re-appears. CIA, Illuminati, Bohemian grove, Skull & Bones, 1001 Club, Le Cercle, Pilgrims Society, Bilderberg Group, CFR, etc, they are the distraction while the REAL Master Mahan is doing his work and laughing at us.
I think you misunderstood Robert. I admire the bravery of ALL those who fought and STILL fight for freedom around the world. It is not I who belittle and insult those brave men who stand up to the tyranny then AND NOW. The Australian, New Zealanders, British, and Canadians were in WW II before we finally got in. PLUS they are about the only ones with enough manhood to stand up with us to fight one of the modern threats of today, Islamic Jihadists, who are the more dangerous because small minded sheeple believe they are no threat. I was pointing out to Aussie that he should not be belittling our brave boys because without them Europe would be speaking German and most of Asia, Japanese. Be assured, Robert, I admire the Greatest Generation and all they accomplished. We may be known as the Worst Generation if we don’t fight the LDGs AND their creation, the Jihadists. Keep throwing the hate of Bush/Chaney/CIA/US Military around and we will all fall into the hands of the LDGs. We have way too many dangers in this world that are more important than to go around blaming every odd event on the boogie men of today; Bush, Chaney, CIA, Military Industrial Complex, blah, blah, blah. While you waste your time with your myths, the real Gadiantons are laughing at you guys and doing their work without opposition. Stop wasting your time on Conspiracies Myths. There are other gospel subjects besides the Secret Combinations and Gadiantons. We know they exist, got it. Where has it gotten us but closer to the NWO? Ever see a magic show? The trick is to distract the audience and use smoke and mirrors. This way they won’t know how the beautiful assistant disappears and then re-appears. CIA, Illuminati, Bohemian grove, Skull & Bones, 1001 Club, Le Cercle, Pilgrims Society, Bilderberg Group, CFR, etc, they are the distraction while the REAL Master Mahan is doing his work and laughing at us.
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The Red Pill
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1681
- Location: Southern Utah
Re: If you were a terrorist...
Oldemandalton wrote:[ Stop wasting your time on Conspiracies Myths. There are other gospel subjects besides the Secret Combinations and Gadiantons. We know they exist, got it. Where has it gotten us but closer to the NWO? Ever see a magic show? The trick is to distract the audience and use smoke and mirrors. This way they won’t know how the beautiful assistant disappears and then re-appears. CIA, Illuminati, Bohemian grove, Skull & Bones, 1001 Club, Le Cercle, Pilgrims Society, Bilderberg Group, CFR, etc, they are the distraction while the REAL Master Mahan is doing his work and laughing at us.
No one is so blind that does not have eyes to see. "Wasting time on conspiracy myths", get real. Flagg has gone out of his way to drop the bread crumbs for you, but you will not follow them. You are certainly not alone in that camp.
If you will honestly spend a few hours and research with an open mind you will begin to find that Flagg is correct. Then try reading dozens of books and thousands of articles over years of time and you will KNOW that Flagg is correct.
You want to fight your position from a lazy-boy recliner, with what you know right now. Your mind is made up and you waste all your energy trying to defend an indefensible position.
You remind me of the scores of people that the missionaries meet every day. They say no before the missionaries even get to teach them anything. Their minds are made up: "We have a Bible and we don't need any more Bible." Think about that for a moment. They don't reject the gospel on its merits, they reject it before they even know anything about it or have spent any effort in investigation.
I feel sorry for you.
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WYp8riot
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1609
- Location: WYOMING
Re: If you were a terrorist...
The only way to really fight the abominable church of the devil is to identify its earthly organizations and know the enemy. That is the commandments in the scriptures.
D&C 18:20
D&C 123:7-17
D&C 18:20
D&C 123:7-17
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Oldemandalton
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2226
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
Re: If you were a terrorist...
[No one is so blind that does not have eyes to see. "Wasting time on conspiracy myths", get real. Flagg has gone out of his way to drop the bread crumbs for you, but you will not follow them. You are certainly not alone in that camp.]
I didn’t mean to say that Secret Combinations or Gadiantons don’t exist today. I am sorry if you got that impression. I believe that they do exist. Nor I am saying don’t study these things at all because I have done so myself on occasion. What I meant was spending a MAJORITY of your precious time we have in our day on myths is a “waste of time”. If it is a main focus of your life then you need to study other Gospel subjects. Unless of course it is your main source of income.
See the above posts of me following Col. Flaggs “bread crumbs”, and he mine.
[If you will honestly spend a few hours and research with an open mind you will begin to find that Flagg is correct. Then try reading dozens of books and thousands of articles over years of time and you will KNOW that Flagg is correct.]
I do have an open mind Red Pill (BTW I love your moniker ). I have studied off and on LDGs and Conspiracies since the early 70s. I just disagree with you and Flagg on the details. If I read “dozens of books and thousands of articles” where will I find the time; to attend the Temple at least once a month, daily scripture study, Genealogy work, Home Teaching, running a Scout Troop, spending time with my kids and grandkids, Etc, Etc, Etc? This brings us back to the point of spending TOO much time on SCs and LDGs doesn’t it?
[You want to fight your position from a lazy-boy recliner, with what you know right now. Your mind is made up and you waste all your energy trying to defend an indefensible position.]
You may disagree, but I think I have defended it very well, IF you have an open mind that is. I realize that it is a HUGE paradigm shift for some. That’s OK. I try and never deride the beliefs of others.
[You remind me of the scores of people that the missionaries meet every day. They say no before the missionaries even get to teach them anything. Their minds are made up: "We have a Bible and we don't need any more Bible." Think about that for a moment. They don't reject the gospel on its merits, they reject it before they even know anything about it or have spent any effort in investigation.
I feel sorry for you.]
I am reminded of those who say that the debate of Global Warming is over and that science has proven its existence. To them I am equal to a Holocaust Denier. I disagree with them as I do the 9/11 myth. Now go back and READ my posts this time and you will see my point of view. I have not rejected it out of hand, Red Pill. I can see the desire to believe in the myth of 9/11. It does have certain allure about it. But then to some so does the myth of Global Warming.
I didn’t mean to say that Secret Combinations or Gadiantons don’t exist today. I am sorry if you got that impression. I believe that they do exist. Nor I am saying don’t study these things at all because I have done so myself on occasion. What I meant was spending a MAJORITY of your precious time we have in our day on myths is a “waste of time”. If it is a main focus of your life then you need to study other Gospel subjects. Unless of course it is your main source of income.
See the above posts of me following Col. Flaggs “bread crumbs”, and he mine.
[If you will honestly spend a few hours and research with an open mind you will begin to find that Flagg is correct. Then try reading dozens of books and thousands of articles over years of time and you will KNOW that Flagg is correct.]
I do have an open mind Red Pill (BTW I love your moniker
). I have studied off and on LDGs and Conspiracies since the early 70s. I just disagree with you and Flagg on the details. If I read “dozens of books and thousands of articles” where will I find the time; to attend the Temple at least once a month, daily scripture study, Genealogy work, Home Teaching, running a Scout Troop, spending time with my kids and grandkids, Etc, Etc, Etc? This brings us back to the point of spending TOO much time on SCs and LDGs doesn’t it?[You want to fight your position from a lazy-boy recliner, with what you know right now. Your mind is made up and you waste all your energy trying to defend an indefensible position.]
You may disagree, but I think I have defended it very well, IF you have an open mind that is.
I realize that it is a HUGE paradigm shift for some. That’s OK. I try and never deride the beliefs of others.[You remind me of the scores of people that the missionaries meet every day. They say no before the missionaries even get to teach them anything. Their minds are made up: "We have a Bible and we don't need any more Bible." Think about that for a moment. They don't reject the gospel on its merits, they reject it before they even know anything about it or have spent any effort in investigation.
I feel sorry for you.]
I am reminded of those who say that the debate of Global Warming is over and that science has proven its existence. To them I am equal to a Holocaust Denier. I disagree with them as I do the 9/11 myth. Now go back and READ my posts this time and you will see my point of view. I have not rejected it out of hand, Red Pill. I can see the desire to believe in the myth of 9/11. It does have certain allure about it. But then to some so does the myth of Global Warming.
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The Red Pill
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1681
- Location: Southern Utah
Re: If you were a terrorist...
I read your posts, you have not proven anything. why do you think I replied to you?Oldemandalton wrote: Now go back and READ my posts this time and you will see my point of view. I have not rejected it out of hand, Red Pill. I can see the desire to believe in the myth of 9/11. It does have certain allure about it. But then to some so does the myth of Global Warming.
There are dozens of smoking guns related to 911 and the coverup. You (or anyone else with an open mind) need only one of those ‘smoking guns’. Science is science; this is not about a difference of opinion. Things can be proven scientifically; end of story. Here is one of the scientific proofs, let’s see what you do with it.
Hydrocarbon fires can only reach a certain maximum temperature under optimal conditions. (A fact of science.) The fires of 911 were hydrocarbon fires. (fact) There is abundant testimony, photo and video evidence of molten steel (as in flowing liquid steel) at numerous 911 sites. (A fact.) Hydrocarbon fires do not burn hot enough to produce molten steel under any condition. (Another fact of science.) When was the last time your Barbeque melted on you?
That simple paragraph, if you will look into it, disproves the official account just as simply as the global warming sham you figured out.
Rather than accept the harsh reality and its numerous implications on your world view, you will resist the facts. Denial is at the root of it. You’re not the first, nor certainly not the last person I have run into with this condition. It is epidemic.
As stated above, this is not about a difference of opinion or point of view. There are objective facts and realities in the world which can be proven true or false by science. May I suggest you read Dr. Stephen Jones’ research on the matter. You are lucky enough that he posts on this site.
Your continued use of the word “myth” is astounding. You act as if no hard factual scientific evidence has been presented concerning the 911 inside job/coverup. It’s everywhere you look, it’s as obvious as
"who’s buried in Grants tomb?” Look at reality, it is not hard to find, if you are looking for the truth.
By the way, I take care of all my church responsibilities as well as having served in a bishopric. I found the time, my friend. I never have and never will consider it a waste of time to search for the truth.
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Mark
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6929
Re: If you were a terrorist...
What kind of condesending tone is that red pill? What you accuse others of who don't buy into your premise can very easily be said of you Bro. Many have made assuptions that their version of any one particular conspiracy is "fact". Yet they have been far from proven as such in events like 9-11 and others on American soil.Rather than accept the harsh reality and its numerous implications on your world view, you will resist the facts. Denial is at the root of it. You’re not the first, nor certainly not the last person I have run into with this condition. It is epidemic.
Many here point fingers at certain individuals in this country as having planned and carried out these events like 9-11 and OKC. How can anyone here know exactly without a doubt who carried out these events? Were you in on the meetings of the conspiracy? Did you somehow gain first hand knowledge of what was done? No, you just make assumptions. I can make assumptions all day long about a lot of things but that does not necessarily make them true or factual.
If one has already made up their minds about things like this how can they ever really find the truth. They will just look at things that back up their own assumptions and ignore anything that does not. What kind of search for truth is that? Dalton has not denied to my knowledge that there are serious questions involving events like 9-11. He just hasn't determined that the standard conspiracy theories of the day are totally accurate. I haven't either.
So many theories kicked around today are conflicting and some are downright bizzare. If one is not open to all arguments and evidence they will never find the truth. Just their own version of what they already "knew" to be true. Has there ever been an event like 9-11 before where jumbo jets full of fuel have flown into large skyscrapers? I have enjoyed reading Dr. Jones research and I am open to much there but I also do not outright discount alternative explanations that have come forward as to the events of those tragic days. CB and others here including Dalton have brought forward compelling arguments as well. I think we need to look at all sides with an unbiased attitude and see what conclusions can be drawn from examining all the evidence fairly.
