Thoughts will also condemn us

[Dusty52]

We all know that it will be our actions that we will be judged upon, but that's not the end of the story!
We will also be judged upon our thoughts, in Matthew 5: 27-28 it states "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart"
I'm going to outer darkness then!
So if I think it, it's the same as doing it? Right?
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

[Original_Intent]

No it's not the same. But you are responsible for your thoughts.

People that equate lust with adultery based on the above scripture seriously have no clue.

[Robin Hood]

We all know that it will be our actions that we will be judged upon, but that's not the end of the story!
We will also be judged upon our thoughts, in Matthew 5: 27-28 it states "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart"
I'm going to outer darkness then!
So if I think it, it's the same as doing it? Right?
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

CS Lewis once saidthat if we could read each others thoughts, we could not escape the conclusion that we are all monsters.

[Robin Hood]

No it's not the same. But you are responsible for your thoughts.

People that equate lust with adultery based on the above scripture seriously have no clue.

Seriously? Jesus didn't know what he was saying?
That scripture means exactly what it says. It doesn't mean that you don't notice a pretty woman, or even acknowledge that she is good-looking or attractive. And we're talking about looks here, not personality or character, or a nice singing voice etc.
But if you look at her in order to consider her potential to satisfy your sexual desires, you have escalated, in your mind at least, your relationship with her. Indeed, the only thing stopping you from acting out what you are contemplating (as a man thinketh in his heart so is he) is the fact that she knows nothing of it.

[Original_Intent]

No it's not the same. But you are responsible for your thoughts.

People that equate lust with adultery based on the above scripture seriously have no clue.

Seriously? Jesus didn't know what he was saying?
That scripture means exactly what it says. It doesn't mean that you don't notice a pretty woman, or even acknowledge that she is good-looking or attractive. And we're talking about looks here, not personality or character, or a nice singing voice etc.
But if you look at her in order to consider her potential to satisfy your sexual desires, you have escalated, in your mind at least, your relationship with her. Indeed, the only thing stopping you from acting out what you are contemplating (as a man thinketh in his heart so is he) is the fact that she knows nothing of it.

Jesus knew what he was saying, but you clearly don't.

You are reading into the scripture something that it does not say. It does NOT say that committing adultery in your heart is the same as committing adultery. It is clearly saying that to do so is wrong, it isn't saying they are equivalent.

It's like saying that coveting is equivalent to robbing someone. The thought is not equal to do the deed. Having the thought may lead to the deed, but having the restraint to not act on the thought means something.

I have lusted after a woman, but even had she been willing I never would have fornicated nor committed adultery.

It has nothing to do with claiming Christ didn't know what he was talking about, it is reading comprehension of what He said.

Is thinking about killing someone equivalent to killing them? Be serious. I'm talking having two brain cells to rub together common sense here.

I'll certainly be condemned for every impure thought. And yep, unrepented of those thought will keep me out of heaven just as much as having taken the action. The difference is, it is much easier to repent of a thought than a deed. You can argue against that until you are blue in the face. Knock yourself out, if you chose to do so, you are wrong.

[Robin Hood]

No it's not the same. But you are responsible for your thoughts.

People that equate lust with adultery based on the above scripture seriously have no clue.

Seriously? Jesus didn't know what he was saying?
That scripture means exactly what it says. It doesn't mean that you don't notice a pretty woman, or even acknowledge that she is good-looking or attractive. And we're talking about looks here, not personality or character, or a nice singing voice etc.
But if you look at her in order to consider her potential to satisfy your sexual desires, you have escalated, in your mind at least, your relationship with her. Indeed, the only thing stopping you from acting out what you are contemplating (as a man thinketh in his heart so is he) is the fact that she knows nothing of it.

Jesus knew what he was saying, but you clearly don't.

You are reading into the scripture something that it does not say. It does NOT say that committing adultery in your heart is the same as committing adultery. It is clearly saying that to do so is wrong, it isn't saying they are equivalent.

It's like saying that coveting is equivalent to robbing someone. The thought is not equal to do the deed. Having the thought may lead to the deed, but having the restraint to not act on the thought means something.

I have lusted after a woman, but even had she been willing I never would have fornicated nor committed adultery.

It has nothing to do with claiming Christ didn't know what he was talking about, it is reading comprehension of what He said.

Is thinking about killing someone equivalent to killing them? Be serious. I'm talking having two brain cells to rub together common sense here.

I'll certainly be condemned for every impure thought. And yep, unrepented of those thought will keep me out of heaven just as much as having taken the action. The difference is, it is much easier to repent of a thought than a deed. You can argue against that until you are blue in the face. Knock yourself out, if you chose to do so, you are wrong.

I believe you are fundamentally mistaken.
Jesus didn't say that to lust after her is to commit a type of adultery, some kind of sugar free adultery lite. He used the same word and there is only one definition of adultery.
Thought sins are the real sins. Anything we do is first conceived in the heart and mind. All sin is located there. When we commit physical sin it is merely a symptom or outworking of a deep spiritual bankruptcy. Physical sins are the outward demonstration of the real self.

Jesus was exposing the true location of sin. So, if anything, the sin of adultery commited in the heart is worse because it is the real sin, not merely it's physical shadow.

[Dusty52]

No it's not the same. But you are responsible for your thoughts.

People that equate lust with adultery based on the above scripture seriously have no clue.

I don't understand your statement about people having no clue, maybe I don't have a clue but I don't need to be insulted by you. You seem very argumentative, why not try stoping insulting and try illuminating?
An explanation would of been much more helpful don't you think?

[Original_Intent]

OK, let me spell it out for you.
Adultery for a Melch priesthood holder is an excommunication offense in most cases.
If the above scripture says what it is being claimed it says, I don't know the exact percentage, but the LDS church would be shrunk by a good percentage if this scripture is interpreted as being claimed it should be.

Thinking about killing someone would be equated to killing someone.
Covetting would be equated to stealing.
etc.

It's so clearly not the case that it's embarrassing to have to explain it. Shall we get into a flat earth discussion next?

[mes5464]

There is a reason why me must learn to master our thoughts.

All God has to do is to think it and that thing becomes a spiritual creation. That is one step away from becoming reality. Our goal is to become like God, therefore, we must learn to control our thoughts so as to control the power of creation. To become like God is to achieve complete mastery of ones self. There can be no compromise to this. Could you imagine what would happen if a man that can't control his lusts were to be given the power of making his thoughts reality?

[inho]

Here is the relevant part of Matthew 5:

27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

If we take the very literal interpretation of verse 28 (i.e., lust is just the same as adultery), should we then interpret also verse 29 literally?

I would argue that "adultery in heart" is not the same as "adultery (in deed)". They are similar sins, but differ in gravity.

[Robin Hood]

OK, let me spell it out for you.
Adultery for a Melch priesthood holder is an excommunication offense in most cases.
If the above scripture says what it is being claimed it says, I don't know the exact percentage, but the LDS church would be shrunk by a good percentage if this scripture is interpreted as being claimed it should be.

Thinking about killing someone would be equated to killing someone.
Covetting would be equated to stealing.
etc.

It's so clearly not the case that it's embarrassing to have to explain it. Shall we get into a flat earth discussion next?

Your problem is you're thinking like a Pharisee.
Church discipline is concerned with outward behaviour. The Jews were obsessed with this concept at the time of Christ.
But Jesus was looking deeper than merely being compliant with the rules in order to avoid the punishment outlined in the law, or even the Church Handbook. We haven't progressed much since that time, as is demonstrated by your comment.

[Original_Intent]

I am not and never implied that controlling your thoughts wasn't important. What I said is that considering the quoted scripture to mean that thinking about committing a sin was equal to committing the sin itself was wrong, and not what was said. I stand by that, and there is nothing pharisaical about it.

[I AM]

No it's not the same. But you are responsible for your thoughts.

People that equate lust with adultery based on the above scripture seriously have no clue.

Seriously? Jesus didn't know what he was saying?
That scripture means exactly what it says. It doesn't mean that you don't notice a pretty woman, or even acknowledge that she is good-looking or attractive. And we're talking about looks here, not personality or character, or a nice singing voice etc.
But if you look at her in order to consider her potential to satisfy your sexual desires, you have escalated, in your mind at least, your relationship with her. Indeed, the only thing stopping you from acting out what you are contemplating (as a man thinketh in his heart so is he) is the fact that she knows nothing of it.

Jesus knew what he was saying, but you clearly don't.

You are reading into the scripture something that it does not say. It does NOT say that committing adultery in your heart is the same as committing adultery. It is clearly saying that to do so is wrong, it isn't saying they are equivalent.

It's like saying that coveting is equivalent to robbing someone. The thought is not equal to do the deed. Having the thought may lead to the deed, but having the restraint to not act on the thought means something.

I have lusted after a woman, but even had she been willing I never would have fornicated nor committed adultery.

It has nothing to do with claiming Christ didn't know what he was talking about, it is reading comprehension of what He said.

Is thinking about killing someone equivalent to killing them? Be serious. I'm talking having two brain cells to rub together common sense here.

I'll certainly be condemned for every impure thought. And yep, unrepented of those thought will keep me out of heaven just as much as having taken the action. The difference is, it is much easier to repent of a thought than a deed. You can argue against that until you are blue in the face. Knock yourself out, if you chose to do so, you are wrong.

----------------------------------------
you couldn't be more wrong my friend.
Jesus knew exactly what he was saying, but YOU, clearly do not.

I'm using this same comment in all the threads
for my position opposing same sex attraction.
and here for lust.


simply put

You cannot use the word "attraction" for the same sex
and have it mean something that is not wrong.

When using the word "attraction" for people,
the word "attraction, has to be used, and what is
only between a man, and a woman.

When a righteous man and woman of God is looking
for an eternal companion to be married to in the temple,
they will have an attraction for eachother.
God made man and woman to be together.
they have a natural attraction to one another.
God made this natural attraction for eachother so a man
and a woman would come together and fulfill God's plan.
"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"

You can not say the same thing - a man for another man.

when two guys are friends, you really wouldn't use the word
attraction, and say that "I'm attracted to him" would you.
but just friendship, is not what we're really talking about here is it.
We are talking about a man having a physical attraction for another man - and that, is simply WRONG, no matter how you want to twist
and justify it.


"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Matthew 19

"4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh.
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."


Have you ever thought - why ? did Jesus make the distinction
between what the people thought was lust, and what it REALLY IS.
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery"
the people thought that "adultery", was something that you actually
had to act on, and do.
but Jesus said:
" But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

it all starts in the mind, and your hearts desire.
Proverbs 23
"7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: "

"We will be judged according to our thoughts, words, deeds, and the desires of our hearts " (see Alma 12:14; 5:15; 41:3–6; D&C 137:9; Matthew 12:36–37; Revelation 20:12–14).

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what are some words that describe lust
and these other words ?
here I'll let google answer that for ya.

lust -
craving, desire, longing, sensuality.
"be consumed with desire for, find sexually attractive"
"very strong sexual desire"

attraction -
allure, appeal, attractiveness, desirability, interest, bait.
"ability to draw attention; something that draws attention"
"the action or power of evoking interest, pleasure, or liking for someone"

desire -
attraction, yearning, appetite, lust, craving, lasciviousness.
"want, longing"

[Blessed]

I agree that we will be judged by our thoughts as well as our actions.

I disagree that having a thought and committing an act are judged as the same offense. No scripture says that is the case. Including the scripture about committing adultery in your heart. Certainly having the thought requires repentance - but the actual act would require church discipline, having the thought does not. So clearly not equivalent.

[Robin Hood]

I agree that we will be judged by our thoughts as well as our actions.

I disagree that having a thought and committing an act are judged as the same offense. No scripture says that is the case. Including the scripture about committing adultery in your heart. Certainly having the thought requires repentance - but the actual act would require church discipline, having the thought does not. So clearly not equivalent.

You're right. They're not the same.
The thought sin is worse.

[Blessed]

We'll agree to disagree on that. good to know that if I think about murdering someone I should just go ahead and do it.. /sarc

I'd love to see you back that assertion up.

[Robin Hood]

We'll agree to disagree on that. good to know that if I think about murdering someone I should just go ahead and do it.. /sarc

I'd love to see you back that assertion up.

I already did, if you follow the thread.
"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he"

[Blessed]

And I thinketh in my heart "I had a temptation, and I resisted it." your logic again says that committing the sin is less of a problem than having the thought.

Which is nuts. But you are free to believe whatever thoughts float your boat.

[Juliet]

It's ok to admit one is a sinner. But there is a way to climb out of it. We all have a reptilian brain. When someone slights you there is an urge to fight. But when you become a rational person you learn you don't need to fight since there are rational ways to behave. The rational thought is literally higher as in position than the reptilian thought. The prefrontal reasoning cortex is on top and the reptilian brain is on bottom of the brain.

It isn't that you don't react to things but that you resolve the way you react to bring you good results.

The prophets have been brave and correct to warn agaisnt pornography and lust. But that just means that temptation is even harder, because now you have been told "no" for something natural. I think the way to handle it is to use higher reasoning to overt the temptation. Such as putting all visuals in the proper context of true love. You want her to be beautiful for her husband and etc.

And yes, women are tempted too. If they were not, they wouldn't dress immodestly. They like the attention too and it is a work to not dress to be lusted after. Unfortunately even church clothes are hard to find that don't seem to be purposed for getting sexual attention.

I can feel when someone lusts at me. If you think you are getting away with it, you are not. Women know. But when I feel that I try to redirect the thought to modesty. Because modestly elevates and resolves the issue.

C.S. Lewis in the book The Four Loves talks about a woman who is so beautiful that instead of inspiring lust, she would inspire men to go home and be better husbands to their wives. That is the type of beauty I want to inspire.

[Blessed]

I like your thought, Juliet, and love the C.S. Lewis quote too. Like I said, i agree that our thoughts also will condemn us. Bad thoughts need to be repented of.

What I disagree with is the idea that the thought is as bad, or according to R.H. even worse than acting on the thought. That's rubbish, according to my current understanding, although i may grow into that understanding someday. I've had 180s in my beliefs before.

[Robin Hood]

And I thinketh in my heart "I had a temptation, and I resisted it." your logic again says that committing the sin is less of a problem than having the thought.

Which is nuts. But you are free to believe whatever thoughts float your boat.

Jesus didn't say that those who experience temptation when the see a woman are adulterers already, he said those who "lust after her" are.
I think some here need to understand what it means to lust after someone. When they do, they will see that Jesus was right.

[Juliet]

I like your thought, Juliet, and love the C.S. Lewis quote too. Like I said, i agree that our thoughts also will condemn us. Bad thoughts need to be repented of.

What I disagree with is the idea that the thought is as bad, or according to R.H. even worse than acting on the thought. That's rubbish, according to my current understanding, although i may grow into that understanding someday. I've had 180s in my beliefs before.

I understand if you think of it as condemnation since thoughts are not going to destroy some one else's life. But look in terms of growth. After you die, you are where you are in terms of your thoughts. So, it makes it a good point to always work on them.

[I AM]

I agree that we will be judged by our thoughts as well as our actions.

I disagree that having a thought and committing an act are judged as the same offense. No scripture says that is the case. Including the scripture about committing adultery in your heart. Certainly having the thought requires repentance - but the actual act would require church discipline, having the thought does not. So clearly not equivalent.

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clever, but not true.

is that all you're worried about is church discipline !
just shows ya where many members are;
putting the church and it's leaders, above
who's church it is - Jesus Christ

I guess you must not understand English,
or we have a learning disability here.
it's obvious - what Jesus said - that they're the same thing.
" But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

and if they're the same thing, they should be judged the same.
And I'm sure God does, even if the church doesn't.

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LDS.ORG


By Larry E. Dahl

"What is really meant by “lusting after” someone, or committing adultery “in [one’s] heart”? Lust is defined as “sexual desire often to an intense or unrestrained degree.” In the scriptures, the heart has to do with the core or essence of a person—his real intent and unfeigned desires. (See Prov. 23:7.)
If one would in fact commit adultery with the object of his lust if the opportunity were present, he is an adulterous person.
Although taught in terms of a man lusting after a woman,
the principle applies to all, male and female."

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Words of Jesus:
By Elder Sheldon F. Child
Of the Seventy

Pure Thoughts

Jesus was clearly concerned that His disciples learn to deny themselves of all unholy sexual desires. In His Sermon on the Mount the Lord made His law of morality clear:

“Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery.

“But I say unto you that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

“Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart” (Joseph Smith Translation, Matt. 5:29–31).

Then, to make His point even more forcefully to His disciples, the Savior used a parable concerning the sin of lust: “If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (Matt. 5:29).

It is significant that the Lord chose the symbolism of casting out an eye, for it is often through our sense of vision that Satan seeks to take control of our thoughts. Jesus said, “The light of the body is the eye; if therefore thine eye be single to the glory of God, thy whole body shall be full of light” (Joseph Smith Translation, Matt. 6:22). Immoral images from movies, television, magazines, and the Internet can put thoughts into our minds that compromise our happiness today and, if not repented of, for eternity.

[I AM]

I think that when we leave this life and no longer have a body,
we are going to find that our thoughts were really all that mattered.

what we do, is only the after result of what we think.

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“Men imagine that thought can be kept secret, but it cannot; it rapidly crystallizes into habit, and habit solidifies into circumstance. Bestial thoughts crystallize into habits of drunkenness and sensuality, which solidify into circumstances of destitution and disease:..."

"Thought and character are one, and as character can only manifest and discover itself through environment and circumstance, the outer conditions of a person's life will always be found to be harmoniously related to his inner state."

“Circumstance does not make the man; it reveals him to himself”
― James Allen, As a Man Thinketh

[Blessed]

[quote...]or we have a learning disability here.[/quote]

If that's the royal "we" I think you may be onto something.

I'm going to go think charitable thoughts about poor people - I'm not actually going to DO anything to help them, because after all, it's the thought that counts.