The Missionary Agenda and the Disconnect with the Ward

[Dusty52]

Whilst on my mission and later when I served on bishoprics there was a disconnect with the mission agenda focused on numbers and the ward picking up the pieces. I raised it on a few occasions, there is too much of a divide?
When an investigator reaches the stage of baptism, they are interviewed by a senior missionary, why at this point can't the ward be involved? Up until this point they have been taught by 2, why not have a member of the bishopric sit in?
I've never understood how and why a missionary can trump a bishop?
For example when I was on a bishopric I met an investigator through a split off, later I saw him locally, smoking and drinking, I expressed my concerns to the missionaries, that in my opinion he wasn't ready, he was baptised a week later, we saw him a couple of weeks after that but he became totally inactive!
Didn't the missionaries do him a disservice by baptising him when he wasn't fully committed?
Didn't it send the wrong message to him?
Wouldn't it of been better to have waited? aren't we in this for the long haul?
In our church in the missionary world it's all about numbers!
What about their souls?
Any thoughts?

[Robin Hood]

Whilst on my mission and later when I served on bishoprics there was a disconnect with the mission agenda focused on numbers and the ward picking up the pieces. I raised it on a few occasions, there is too much of a divide?
When an investigator reaches the stage of baptism, they are interviewed by a senior missionary, why at this point can't the ward be involved? Up until this point they have been taught by 2, why not have a member of the bishopric sit in?
I've never understood how and why a missionary can trump a bishop?
Any thoughts?

Dusty, I absolutely agree with you.
The missionaries are 100% focussed on getting them baptised and then dumping them on the ward. We have people who are baptised who are clearly not living the Word of Wisdom, or are looking at porn, living lives that are not in harmony with the gospel in many respects. We had one woman baptised who is a complete alcoholic and has been a nightmare ever since.
I believe the baptismal interview should be with the bishop.

We have missionaries telling the ward what to do because the "mission president says so". Since when did a mission president have any authority over a ward or a stake?
Also, the calibre of missionaries these says is, with some exceptions, questionable. They seem to want to avoid anything that has the appearance of work in favour of hanging out with people their age. And giving them ipads was the dumbest thing the church has done for a long time.

I am not a fan of the missionary programme in it's current incarnation.

[gardener4life]

Successful missionaries and missions have always emphasized ward involvement because the ward members will be around longer than the missionary. (Its worth noting that they don't always emphasize cutting ties with investigators anymore because they saw that it brings harm to cut people off from other faithful people. 20 years ago they'd tell missionaries to move on. I always felt that was harmful. And then later they changed it so you should keep in contact, and that's because sometimes a person will join the church and none of their family joins...and some wards are weak...so if you cut off the only ones that care about them it's a death sentence.)

OK, a few more thoughts.

In matters of revelation and procedure, the mission has jurisdiction over convert baptisms, the bishop has jurisdiction over child baptisms (to a certain age).

Some wards are weak. It's not always a good idea to give over all control to wards because people in wards will be a bit too conscientious of the time earning money lost when prioritizing activities with new members and converts.

As an example, one ward I was in as a missionary we had this golden investigator, we knew she had the best chance to succeed if we involved members. So we planned bringing people from the ward over. We invited the Relief Society President and someone from the Elders Quorum. The EQ person decided since we'd also asked Relief Society presidency to go to one of the lessons that he was out and would let them deal with it. Then the RS President did the same. We tried to invite someone from primary to the lessons too. And the same thing happened. And as a result, NO ONE went. And people were all offended that we'd tried to help them meet a cool family. And everyone refused to help out after, and no one had done anything; so they couldn't say that they'd spent much time in their callings or were tired. And this all happened because of gossip and people wanting to not take a half hour out from entertainment and money.

But then it gets worse.

The father-in-law of the girl got jealous that he wasn't teaching her instead of us and blocked us from coming over. (She was a part member family investigator that married into a Samoan family.) The father in law felt threatened for who knows...pride...or who knows...maybe priesthood issues. But it was silly because he was active.

Long story short, they killed a golden chance that was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And it was all because of members being selfish. She found out about them not wanting to go over to the lessons later. And it didn't help that she saw her father in law preventing us from coming over made her think maybe church didn't really matter.

Then it got worse again...

We had a joint dinner with another set of missionaries in the ward. They had a dinner calendar being passed around. One day it was another less active family doing the dinner, but the guy confirming the calls was a foreign missionary and he misread the family's name and confirmed the dinner appointment wrong. The family got super mad, and the that guy's partner was the district leader. So using his leadership he asked me and my partner to go bite the bullet for them for not showing up.

The members alienated us, and for a whole year I kept hearing about it from the stake gossip circle how bad missionaries were, since I was in that area for quite awhile. We also had people not sign up for dinner appointments anymore either because these people couldn't understand that someone with poor English might mix up dinner appointments on the calendar. Also the District Leader should have stepped up instead of using someone innocent as his meat shield.

This is just one of my mission stories. And this one shows even if you have the true church, wards can be very sick and be neglected. I could go on and on about stories of not just mission wards but others. These people were all unable to help with missionary work because of holding grudges, pride, and gossip.

And people do that even more now.

Another bright example of sick wards...

One ward I was in the members refused to house or feed missionaries because 2 years previous to us, a couple renting a room (for $, not for free) to some sisters had come home to find one of the sister missionaries jumping up and down on their bed in their daughters wedding dress. And they'd been holding a grudge that long. We had to bike 10 miles each way just to get to our area. And back then they only did members renting to missionaries for rooms. And that 10 miles each day was all because of stupid people holding grudges.

Another ward I was in the Ward Mission Leader's son took over our investigator and then caused a ruckus and told the investigator we were doing it wrong. Then when we got home he'd told the mission leadership we apostates, and killed our reputation. This was the same ward that was making us bike 10 miles each way to just get to the ward. I'm surprised my companion at the time didn't decide to go home.

I came home from my mission and went to college. When I got home, I found out my missionary trainer was living 2 houses down from my parents. This person was so involved with themselves that during the 4 years or so living in the ward they never once came to see or ask about things. The trainer knew I was from that town. And when I finally ran into that person they kept talking about some other missionary they wanted to find. I kept thinking this person is a lost cause.

So...I think missionaries are sometimes more innocent than people in the world. People do a lot of sad, stupid behavior.

One ward on the mission we were at we got the involvement of a seminary leader in the single adult institute program to help us teach investigators because he was really fired up and knew how to inspire people. The person he helped us teach joined the church. But then we find out he left the church because the same guy who helped teach and was fired up taught him to find fault with and be angry at the bishop. I stumbled upon this guy ridiculing the bishop for not noticing this investigators greatness. And at the time I was thinking...how the heck am I going to fix that? (Damage done...)

Then there's the times you have to get the ward to not talk about Kolob around your new investigators.

On the day coming home from my mission I was on the airport with 2 other missionaries. Being polite and really fired up about missionary work, I said hey if you ever visit such and such town (anonymous....) look me up! The two other stooges then not only rejected that idea but were flat out rude and acting like I was some kind of leper.

So bottom line...these problems come up because while the church is true, the people in it aren't. People do some really stupid, stupid things sometimes. You just have to get involved whoever has the spirit and loves Jesus, and wants to help. If you get people that don't have that they will try to drop the ball.

Another time, once I tried to tell a friend I thought God had sent them to such and such ward that we were both in. The person freaked out and thought I was doing some kind of gay or lesbian confession and cut me off in mid-sentence. I don't they they ever really understood what I was trying to tell them.

One time also I had a roommate get jealous and mad at me. Then the home teacher came over and they sent them in my room when I had just gotten out of the shower and I wasn't dressed yet, nor did I know anyone had come over yet. I was kind of unhappy about that. And I think that person got the wrong idea not realizing what the roommate had done was malicious intent.

Just bring whoever really wants to do the work. I think this is why D&C Section 4 invites those with 'desires to serve God, and do the work', not whoever has the biggest house or best calling or the smartest or most educated. People who want to serve Jesus and be with him will be the ones that come through.

BTW thanks for letting me vent!

The point of this...I think a lot of places in America are rejecting the Gospel. This is stuff that I saw years ago. I haven't even gotten to the recent stuff.

[drtanner]

I believe this is a valid concern fueled by the wrong focus / mantra for years all reinforced by repeated conversation centered around people being “baptized” hence the focus and change now on “teaching repentance and baptizing converts.” Hopefully the idea of true conversion sinks deeper and deeper in the the culture of the next generation of missionaries, and as it does imo greater and greater miracles, power, and gathering will occur. I think a good start here is the focus on our own individual conversion through the doctrine of Christ.

[inho]

Part of the problem is that missionaries are very good at teaching the gospel, but they don't really "teach the church". I think many investigators do not understand what level of commitment to the ward is expected of them after their baptism. Missionaries have taught them that baptism is for the remission of the sins. However, they don't understand that it has also dual purpose of becoming member of the church. Investigators might have visited church meetings very few times before their baptism. They don't have a clear understanding of the organization and programs of the church, yet they are expected to take actively part in them after their baptism.

I do understand that the focus should be in Christ, not in the programs and structure of the church. Teaching the gospel should be the focus instead of "teaching the church". But these two shouldn't be separate.

[brianj]

I was not a popular missionary companion because I had a goal of never baptizing anybody on my mission and none of my companions baptizing.

I had been a member of the church for less than two years when I went on my mission. Though I had a wonderful bishop and I had been blessed with a very good friend in the church, I was alone more than I wasn't. I understood how important it is for a new convert to have friends in the ward. I took ward members to participate in the discussions. I encouraged the ward members to do things with the investigators and I encouraged the investigators to have the ward members baptize them.

This was obviously very unpopular with my companions. They viewed baptism as a treat to be enjoyed. All of us, including myself, got into the numbers game reporting the various contacts we had and baptism was one more number to report. There was every motivation for missionaries to just get people baptized and no motivation to make sure they were really ready. There weren't even any teachings about making sure people were ready other than getting them to promise to keep the commandments.

Of course there is a new member discussion series. Ward missionaries were supposed to fellowship new members, teach those lessons, and help them become strong in the ward and in the gospel, but this didn't happen very often.

[The Airbender]

Whilst on my mission and later when I served on bishoprics there was a disconnect with the mission agenda focused on numbers and the ward picking up the pieces. I raised it on a few occasions, there is too much of a divide?
When an investigator reaches the stage of baptism, they are interviewed by a senior missionary, why at this point can't the ward be involved? Up until this point they have been taught by 2, why not have a member of the bishopric sit in?
I've never understood how and why a missionary can trump a bishop?
Any thoughts?

Dusty, I absolutely agree with you.
The missionaries are 100% focussed on getting them baptised and then dumping them on the ward. We have people who are baptised who are clearly not living the Word of Wisdom, or are looking at porn, living lives that are not in harmony with the gospel in many respects. We had one woman baptised who is a complete alcoholic and has been a nightmare ever since.
I believe the baptismal interview should be with the bishop.

We have missionaries telling the ward what to do because the "mission president says so". Since when did a mission president have any authority over a ward or a stake?
Also, the calibre of missionaries these says is, with some exceptions, questionable. They seem to want to avoid anything that has the appearance of work in favour of hanging out with people their age. And giving them ipads was the dumbest thing the church has done for a long time.

I am not a fan of the missionary programme in it's current incarnation.

When I was a district leader I turned down investigators who the missionaries claimed were toooootally ready. I made some Elders mad that they didn't get their numbers for the week. I don't think any of those people I turned down were baptized later.

[Dusty52]

It is a complex relationship
You would think by now the church would of got this relationship working better! It's had long enough!!
I think one possible solution is for the bishop to have more jurisdiction over their missionaries, more input, the mission president would still retain overall control, emphasis would then be on converting rather than baptising!
I don't see why the church couldn't pilot this and examine the results, surely it would be better for those getting baptised and for the ward who has got to look after them after entering the waters of baptism?
I don't know why the church is so fixated on numbers, what difference does it make to them?

[inho]

I think one possible solution is for the bishop to have more jurisdiction over their missionaries, more input, the mission president would still retain overall control, emphasis would then be on converting rather than baptising!

I think a good way to make this happen would be to have bishops to interview the converts. That would force the missionaries to work together with the bishop.

[Thinker]

Maybe the answer is similar to why some people visit a church without any members saying hi to them. I don’t think more ward missionary callings would help because visitors and new converts come to church randomly and it’s more about whoever comes across them tending to them. We as members need to be more on the look out for new people and get out of our comfort zones to be friendly to those we don’t know, to help them feel they belong. Not easy when some of us are busy teaching etc - but the Good Samaritan helped along his busy way, and we can too.

[gardener4life]

Maybe the answer is similar to why some people visit a church without any members saying hi to them. I don’t think more ward missionary callings would help because visitors and new converts come to church randomly and it’s more about whoever comes across them tending to them. We as members need to be more on the look out for new people and get out of our comfort zones to be friendly to those we don’t know, to help them feel they belong. Not easy when some of us are busy teaching etc - but the Good Samaritan helped along his busy way, and we can too.

I liked this comment.

Especially I don't like the greeting philosophy in a lot of wards either. A lot of people I've met in a half a dozen wards will ignore you if you aren't in their same economic zone. I've seen this for years and it's terrible. I get tired of trying to greet and say hi to people at church to help out and have people ignore it even when you are standing in front of their face.

I think a lot of members have too much pride and don't let people in for no reason.

[JohnnyL]

Problems, possible solutions, more in this post and other "missionary" posts:
https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... -by-grego/