Garments.
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Alaris
- Captain of 144,000
- Posts: 7354
- Location: Present before the general assembly
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Re: Garments.
I am unsurprised that a thread like this may attract those who understand the gospel better than the rest of us, and rather than persuade per D&C 121, we see this attitude of condemnation that always seems to be laced with anger and contempt by those who obviously know the Gospel of Jesus Christ better than we do...those who seem to be incensed at those who are saying "it's between you and God" - which it is by the way. Perhaps I'm reading that wrong, and that may just be the F in my INFJ talking.
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TrueIntent
- captain of 100
- Posts: 974
Re: Garments.
Understanding The Garment in Your endowment.
When you walking into initiatory, a scripture is quoted to you about aaron and his sons coming to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and washing them with water. Let me explain what this means. Aaron and his sons, firstborn sons, in jewish tradition entered into service ( a covenant or agreement) to serve in the temple. It was part of their presisthood ( a lesser priesthood) to serve in the ordinances of the holy gospel found in the Jewish Temple. We do the same. We enter into to a covenant to walk in obedience to the ordinances as we are instructed (so far, most mormons have only been instructed on how to participate in an ordinance and wear the garment, because they haven't received, nor do they understand the spiritual fulfillment of an ordinance.).
ON this forum, many of you have experienced and received a witness of what it feels like to be baptized by fire. There is more. We are to be endowed with power. Its all one baptism. The processes is the same...its a continual cleansing so that we can be "filled" with his spirit. If we remain clean (through and only through repentance on His name)....His spirit will dwell "upon us" constantly. We become "endowed" with a gift. The gift is, the constant companionship of His spirit.
So, beginning with Initiatory: You are walked into a room, where you basically are foreordained OR (predestined is the word in the new testament paul uses) for a special "calling" or "purpose".....that purpose is to be endowed with power and be a witness to both Jew and Gentile of His gospel. But you are only "Called" to be that. That doesn't mean you will accept your mission or foreordination. Hence the scriptures, many are called but few are chosen, also, the words of paul I believe where he says, not all of israel is israel (not all who call themselves elect are elect, or Christs are actually His). This is the mission that Christ said to Peter....FEED MY SHEEP....He wants us to seek out and find His sheep and administer the spiritual gospel to them "through" the ordinances we have received. Example....if you go to a Christian who has received witnesses of the spirit AND who is familiar with old testament scripture and new testament gospel, and you tell them you are "endowed"....they may laugh at you, unless you pair it with witnesses of the spirit (like the temple video where peter james and john exchange "tokens and signs" with adam" Its not about a handshake. You, as members who receive ordinances, covenant that you will obey the "letter of the law".....and that you will "serve".....according to the knowledge we have right....because all of us have received different instruction on the garment....its up to us to act according to our own conscience, right? However there is a higher purpose....that Im going to get to.
But back to initiatory. You walk in, they quote you scripture about aaron and his sons, (which is basically you are like Adam, where you promise to be obedient, not even understanding why right, because who really understands the endowment the first time you walk in, and yet, we are supposedly making all these promises to be obedient to God). I challenge this....we are actually being obedient to the church and their understanding and whoever our teachers are at this phase...we are relying on their witnesses and trusting that it actually is obediences to God)...unless you knew God or understood the endowment before you walked in I (Which hopefully i will instruct my own children better than I was right?)....Either way, this is all about the Abrahamic covenant...and eternal posterity....GOD's seed (thats the final token if you were wondering).
So in initiatory, you are washed, anointed ONLY TO BECOME SUCH. Then in the final state, you are given a garment (after entering the third booth), which by the way, ALL BOOTHS are separated by veils. We are parting the veil each time we go to God to receive higher understanding. Its all symbolic.....like I said, tell someone who knows the scriptures that you are endowed without witnesses of the spirit or even understanding the pattern, and they won't "receive" you as a true witness. Its about knowledge. And IM giving a huge part of it in this post.
So then you put on the Garment. Just a symbol. It does not actually protect you, HOWEVER, if you were properly instructed, you may receive the witness during the ordinance. I have heard of this happening during ordinances (like the sacrament, or laying on of hands) HOWEVER, I have heard of it also happening outside of the ordinances. Don't let anyone tell you that you have to receive the ordinances to be forgiven, washed clean, etc. Those who have obtained a baptism of fire know this.
So, You start off on an aaronic level (obedience and service in the temple, just like the firstborn sons do in scripture). Then you enter the new name booth and receive a NEW NAME which you will always remember, and never reveal, except at a certain place (which is the veil)......WHY???? because we are supposed to be passing this information back and forth through the veil to God so that he can say , CORRECT?.....otherwise we could be like an apostate. So you receive a new name....NOTICE, that we are given lots of different names in scripture. For example, Jesus, asks his disciples who people say that he is? They say he is John the baptist resurrected, they say he is Elijah, they say is must be jerimiah or some other great prophet. But Christ says, WHO DO YOU SAY that I AM? You are the Christ, they reply....the anointed one. NOW REMEMBER....in the temple ceremony, YOU ARE ANOINTED.
Now we get a new name (how to we get a new name, same way we get everything else.....by repentance and covenanting to take HIS name upon us)....now remember, you have your garment on, but you are not wearing any robes yet.
The robes are symbolic of the endowment (endowed with power, i.e. a higher priesthood of melkzedek). Which is why, half way through the ceremony, you change robes. You move to a higher priesthood....AND YOU PUT ON ALL KINDS OF ROBES. But these robes are all "spiritually" symbolic. If Jesus needed to wear robes to represent HIS authority, He would have, he would have dressed in all the ceremonial garb that the HIGH PRIEST wore in the temple. Here is where the understanding changes......stay with me.
If we could see our spirits ( I haven't seen mine so I am speaking from my spiritual witnesses and understanding of scripture).....then we could see our glory...OUR ROBES. But in this tabernacle of clay, we "seem naked"....so we cover ourselves with "fig leaves".....i.e. a covering like the garment. This is because satan would attack us relentlessly if others could behold our "glory".......The fig leaves, in the parable of the fig tree....Christ says about the Jews in the new testament, that they were trees without fruit. Lucifer tells adam and eve that they are "naked", i.e. trees without fruit (visualize the tree of life as yourself, as a path you walk). And so they cover their nakedness.....to hide the fruit they didn't bear yet, AND YET is the key word. We are supposed to bear fruit. Fruits of the spirit. because those who don't bear fruit, are jealous of those who do, because they manifest the fruits of the spirit in their very lives. The bear witness of hearings, spiritual testimonies of Christ....truth.
Now for the bigger picture of the endowment. We have ordinances within it, I have already spoken of the initiatory in short, the new name, but we also have the sealing, as well as baptism for the death. I CHALLENGE that it is ALL ONE BAPTISM. You repent the whole way through it. And he gives you greater and greater portions of His spirit. We can't "work or perform" our way to being spotless. He chooses to fill us with His spirit if we will follow His spirit and Keep HIS commandments. That is completely different than the "aaronic priesthood" level where we obtain patterns of obedience.
There are 4 marks on the garment. There were four corners on the jewish garment (prayer covering...i can't remember the name, look it up)....it had tassels all around that were "tied" in knots. These were symbolic of the 613 laws contained in the law of moses. What do ya know? The law of moses was a school master, to teach us how to receive higher things....just like the "aaronic priesthood" pattern follows one of obedience, just like Adams obedience, and our Book of Commandments (D&C as it is called today).
The original garment is a full length covering (and is also a symbol of the "full length covering" Christ wore, as well as soooooo many others in scripture). If you will begin searching the original meaning of "mantle" you will find that it was a garment that was a covering without seams. It was girded at the waist. The hairy covering of john the baptist/Elijah...is a dual symbol. It is a symbol of sack cloth an ash (sack cloth was usually made of wool, hair), and this symbolized repentance, BUT this covering was also symbolic of an authority obtained...a "mantle" of a prophet. Prophet is one in scripture (if you will search the greek meaning of the word), who is one that elevates to higher understanding or truth. They wore their sack cloth and ash while also wearing a mantle. The covering of the spirit that "rested" on christ was the spirit, but for us it is also a covering of grace, BECAUSE we can not receive it unless HE chooses, "calls out" or elects us to receive it. We will manifest certain gifts of the spirit when we do "wear" it. We will also have to "wash our hands and feet"....just like those serving in the ancient temple did before we can administer to others. Christ administers to us, so we can administer to them.
An endowment is an endowment of power. The garment is the symbol that "we made and kept covenants", BUT IT IS ONLY A SYMBOL. We don't display a cross in the church, WHY, well I would argue because what happened to the cross is what has happened to our cloth garment.
By the way....the prayer circle. Also related to the "garment".....we make the tokens and signs, and wear the robes of Melkezedek priesthood holders as we stand around peter (who held the keys of the kingdom, and who christ said FEED MY SHEEP" to).....and we pray on behalf of others. Read this passage of scripture with new eyes......its about the prayer circle (see below)....they are "widows" praying on behalf of one who is dead, and must be risen.
The Raising of Dorcas
…38Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples heard that Peter was there and sent two men to urge him, “Come to us without delay.” 39So Peter got up and went with them. On his arrival, they took him to the upper room. All the widows stood around him, weeping and showing him the tunics and other clothing that Dorcas had made while she was still with them. 40Then Peter sent them all out of the room. He knelt down and prayed, and turning toward her body, he said, “Tabitha, get up!” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter, she sat up.…
Notice how "dorcus" made garments/tunics for them while she was still with them. Did you know, that in the baptismal font, we perform "baptisms (symbolic of a raising from the dead) for the dead).....this font is the very similitude of the brazen alter with the oxen found in the old testament, that the high priest, after performing sacrifices on behalf of the people, would walk down in to and "wash the blood of HIS OWN body" from the sacrifice. Waters, are not only a symbol of cleaning, but also a symbol of sin. Blood (christ Blood) is a symbol of cleansing ourselves with His, but blood is also a symbol of sin.
These are all just symbols. We are not made holy by our performance of them. The reason john the baptist and elijah where a mantle is to OUTWARDLY declare that they KNOW THIS. it becomes their witness to the world. Just As christ was the LIVING BREATHING very image of the patterns of the jewish ordinances. WE, as LDS are supposed to be LIVING BREATHING images of the melkezedek priesthood. We are supposed to be "sealed" on our foreheads with the name of God.
The final symbol (at the third stage)....where a couple is joined at the alter in the patriarchal grip (or sure sign), and then they raise their arms to the square, over and over........THIS IS GOD"S NAME in the most ancient form of Hebrew pictograph. This is what the 144,000 wear on their foreheads....This is why joseph taught that the endowment is for the 144,000 (the number is also a symbol).. Ill see if I can post a pic. Anyway, we are the posterity of God. Abrahams seed. Its the symbol of two people hands raised as if praying, connected by a "peg or nail", followed by an "arm" as if reaching out to heaven down to them. These are ancient truths. Have you ever seen the painting of the "hand of god" He's always reaching out to us. Why did the jews "forget" the name of God after it was given to them? Because it wasn't really about a name, it was more like a "title" like elijah or messiah. To know HIS NAME, is to know HIM.
In the book of mormon, if you will study the phrase "law of moses" you will find that people fell into incorrect practice of the law of moses. We are supposed to practice ( in the BOM) the law of moses for the "intent" that it was given. If we practice it as a work (see Zoramites, and people throughout the book of mormon who practice religion in patterns, instead of patterns for the "INTENT" that they were given" WE become dead. If we want to raise the dead, they first must be raised spiritually. Christ referred to those who were Dead as those who had not received his spirit. We are supposed to be witnesses of it.
That doesn't mean that you will DO what I DO, but it does mean what you are commanded to do you will do it openly, and bear witness of the fruit. Why are we covering ourselves with fig leaves if we have born fruit?
When you walking into initiatory, a scripture is quoted to you about aaron and his sons coming to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and washing them with water. Let me explain what this means. Aaron and his sons, firstborn sons, in jewish tradition entered into service ( a covenant or agreement) to serve in the temple. It was part of their presisthood ( a lesser priesthood) to serve in the ordinances of the holy gospel found in the Jewish Temple. We do the same. We enter into to a covenant to walk in obedience to the ordinances as we are instructed (so far, most mormons have only been instructed on how to participate in an ordinance and wear the garment, because they haven't received, nor do they understand the spiritual fulfillment of an ordinance.).
ON this forum, many of you have experienced and received a witness of what it feels like to be baptized by fire. There is more. We are to be endowed with power. Its all one baptism. The processes is the same...its a continual cleansing so that we can be "filled" with his spirit. If we remain clean (through and only through repentance on His name)....His spirit will dwell "upon us" constantly. We become "endowed" with a gift. The gift is, the constant companionship of His spirit.
So, beginning with Initiatory: You are walked into a room, where you basically are foreordained OR (predestined is the word in the new testament paul uses) for a special "calling" or "purpose".....that purpose is to be endowed with power and be a witness to both Jew and Gentile of His gospel. But you are only "Called" to be that. That doesn't mean you will accept your mission or foreordination. Hence the scriptures, many are called but few are chosen, also, the words of paul I believe where he says, not all of israel is israel (not all who call themselves elect are elect, or Christs are actually His). This is the mission that Christ said to Peter....FEED MY SHEEP....He wants us to seek out and find His sheep and administer the spiritual gospel to them "through" the ordinances we have received. Example....if you go to a Christian who has received witnesses of the spirit AND who is familiar with old testament scripture and new testament gospel, and you tell them you are "endowed"....they may laugh at you, unless you pair it with witnesses of the spirit (like the temple video where peter james and john exchange "tokens and signs" with adam" Its not about a handshake. You, as members who receive ordinances, covenant that you will obey the "letter of the law".....and that you will "serve".....according to the knowledge we have right....because all of us have received different instruction on the garment....its up to us to act according to our own conscience, right? However there is a higher purpose....that Im going to get to.
But back to initiatory. You walk in, they quote you scripture about aaron and his sons, (which is basically you are like Adam, where you promise to be obedient, not even understanding why right, because who really understands the endowment the first time you walk in, and yet, we are supposedly making all these promises to be obedient to God). I challenge this....we are actually being obedient to the church and their understanding and whoever our teachers are at this phase...we are relying on their witnesses and trusting that it actually is obediences to God)...unless you knew God or understood the endowment before you walked in I (Which hopefully i will instruct my own children better than I was right?)....Either way, this is all about the Abrahamic covenant...and eternal posterity....GOD's seed (thats the final token if you were wondering).
So in initiatory, you are washed, anointed ONLY TO BECOME SUCH. Then in the final state, you are given a garment (after entering the third booth), which by the way, ALL BOOTHS are separated by veils. We are parting the veil each time we go to God to receive higher understanding. Its all symbolic.....like I said, tell someone who knows the scriptures that you are endowed without witnesses of the spirit or even understanding the pattern, and they won't "receive" you as a true witness. Its about knowledge. And IM giving a huge part of it in this post.
So then you put on the Garment. Just a symbol. It does not actually protect you, HOWEVER, if you were properly instructed, you may receive the witness during the ordinance. I have heard of this happening during ordinances (like the sacrament, or laying on of hands) HOWEVER, I have heard of it also happening outside of the ordinances. Don't let anyone tell you that you have to receive the ordinances to be forgiven, washed clean, etc. Those who have obtained a baptism of fire know this.
So, You start off on an aaronic level (obedience and service in the temple, just like the firstborn sons do in scripture). Then you enter the new name booth and receive a NEW NAME which you will always remember, and never reveal, except at a certain place (which is the veil)......WHY???? because we are supposed to be passing this information back and forth through the veil to God so that he can say , CORRECT?.....otherwise we could be like an apostate. So you receive a new name....NOTICE, that we are given lots of different names in scripture. For example, Jesus, asks his disciples who people say that he is? They say he is John the baptist resurrected, they say he is Elijah, they say is must be jerimiah or some other great prophet. But Christ says, WHO DO YOU SAY that I AM? You are the Christ, they reply....the anointed one. NOW REMEMBER....in the temple ceremony, YOU ARE ANOINTED.
Now we get a new name (how to we get a new name, same way we get everything else.....by repentance and covenanting to take HIS name upon us)....now remember, you have your garment on, but you are not wearing any robes yet.
The robes are symbolic of the endowment (endowed with power, i.e. a higher priesthood of melkzedek). Which is why, half way through the ceremony, you change robes. You move to a higher priesthood....AND YOU PUT ON ALL KINDS OF ROBES. But these robes are all "spiritually" symbolic. If Jesus needed to wear robes to represent HIS authority, He would have, he would have dressed in all the ceremonial garb that the HIGH PRIEST wore in the temple. Here is where the understanding changes......stay with me.
If we could see our spirits ( I haven't seen mine so I am speaking from my spiritual witnesses and understanding of scripture).....then we could see our glory...OUR ROBES. But in this tabernacle of clay, we "seem naked"....so we cover ourselves with "fig leaves".....i.e. a covering like the garment. This is because satan would attack us relentlessly if others could behold our "glory".......The fig leaves, in the parable of the fig tree....Christ says about the Jews in the new testament, that they were trees without fruit. Lucifer tells adam and eve that they are "naked", i.e. trees without fruit (visualize the tree of life as yourself, as a path you walk). And so they cover their nakedness.....to hide the fruit they didn't bear yet, AND YET is the key word. We are supposed to bear fruit. Fruits of the spirit. because those who don't bear fruit, are jealous of those who do, because they manifest the fruits of the spirit in their very lives. The bear witness of hearings, spiritual testimonies of Christ....truth.
Now for the bigger picture of the endowment. We have ordinances within it, I have already spoken of the initiatory in short, the new name, but we also have the sealing, as well as baptism for the death. I CHALLENGE that it is ALL ONE BAPTISM. You repent the whole way through it. And he gives you greater and greater portions of His spirit. We can't "work or perform" our way to being spotless. He chooses to fill us with His spirit if we will follow His spirit and Keep HIS commandments. That is completely different than the "aaronic priesthood" level where we obtain patterns of obedience.
There are 4 marks on the garment. There were four corners on the jewish garment (prayer covering...i can't remember the name, look it up)....it had tassels all around that were "tied" in knots. These were symbolic of the 613 laws contained in the law of moses. What do ya know? The law of moses was a school master, to teach us how to receive higher things....just like the "aaronic priesthood" pattern follows one of obedience, just like Adams obedience, and our Book of Commandments (D&C as it is called today).
The original garment is a full length covering (and is also a symbol of the "full length covering" Christ wore, as well as soooooo many others in scripture). If you will begin searching the original meaning of "mantle" you will find that it was a garment that was a covering without seams. It was girded at the waist. The hairy covering of john the baptist/Elijah...is a dual symbol. It is a symbol of sack cloth an ash (sack cloth was usually made of wool, hair), and this symbolized repentance, BUT this covering was also symbolic of an authority obtained...a "mantle" of a prophet. Prophet is one in scripture (if you will search the greek meaning of the word), who is one that elevates to higher understanding or truth. They wore their sack cloth and ash while also wearing a mantle. The covering of the spirit that "rested" on christ was the spirit, but for us it is also a covering of grace, BECAUSE we can not receive it unless HE chooses, "calls out" or elects us to receive it. We will manifest certain gifts of the spirit when we do "wear" it. We will also have to "wash our hands and feet"....just like those serving in the ancient temple did before we can administer to others. Christ administers to us, so we can administer to them.
An endowment is an endowment of power. The garment is the symbol that "we made and kept covenants", BUT IT IS ONLY A SYMBOL. We don't display a cross in the church, WHY, well I would argue because what happened to the cross is what has happened to our cloth garment.
By the way....the prayer circle. Also related to the "garment".....we make the tokens and signs, and wear the robes of Melkezedek priesthood holders as we stand around peter (who held the keys of the kingdom, and who christ said FEED MY SHEEP" to).....and we pray on behalf of others. Read this passage of scripture with new eyes......its about the prayer circle (see below)....they are "widows" praying on behalf of one who is dead, and must be risen.
The Raising of Dorcas
…38Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples heard that Peter was there and sent two men to urge him, “Come to us without delay.” 39So Peter got up and went with them. On his arrival, they took him to the upper room. All the widows stood around him, weeping and showing him the tunics and other clothing that Dorcas had made while she was still with them. 40Then Peter sent them all out of the room. He knelt down and prayed, and turning toward her body, he said, “Tabitha, get up!” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter, she sat up.…
Notice how "dorcus" made garments/tunics for them while she was still with them. Did you know, that in the baptismal font, we perform "baptisms (symbolic of a raising from the dead) for the dead).....this font is the very similitude of the brazen alter with the oxen found in the old testament, that the high priest, after performing sacrifices on behalf of the people, would walk down in to and "wash the blood of HIS OWN body" from the sacrifice. Waters, are not only a symbol of cleaning, but also a symbol of sin. Blood (christ Blood) is a symbol of cleansing ourselves with His, but blood is also a symbol of sin.
These are all just symbols. We are not made holy by our performance of them. The reason john the baptist and elijah where a mantle is to OUTWARDLY declare that they KNOW THIS. it becomes their witness to the world. Just As christ was the LIVING BREATHING very image of the patterns of the jewish ordinances. WE, as LDS are supposed to be LIVING BREATHING images of the melkezedek priesthood. We are supposed to be "sealed" on our foreheads with the name of God.
The final symbol (at the third stage)....where a couple is joined at the alter in the patriarchal grip (or sure sign), and then they raise their arms to the square, over and over........THIS IS GOD"S NAME in the most ancient form of Hebrew pictograph. This is what the 144,000 wear on their foreheads....This is why joseph taught that the endowment is for the 144,000 (the number is also a symbol).. Ill see if I can post a pic. Anyway, we are the posterity of God. Abrahams seed. Its the symbol of two people hands raised as if praying, connected by a "peg or nail", followed by an "arm" as if reaching out to heaven down to them. These are ancient truths. Have you ever seen the painting of the "hand of god" He's always reaching out to us. Why did the jews "forget" the name of God after it was given to them? Because it wasn't really about a name, it was more like a "title" like elijah or messiah. To know HIS NAME, is to know HIM.
In the book of mormon, if you will study the phrase "law of moses" you will find that people fell into incorrect practice of the law of moses. We are supposed to practice ( in the BOM) the law of moses for the "intent" that it was given. If we practice it as a work (see Zoramites, and people throughout the book of mormon who practice religion in patterns, instead of patterns for the "INTENT" that they were given" WE become dead. If we want to raise the dead, they first must be raised spiritually. Christ referred to those who were Dead as those who had not received his spirit. We are supposed to be witnesses of it.
That doesn't mean that you will DO what I DO, but it does mean what you are commanded to do you will do it openly, and bear witness of the fruit. Why are we covering ourselves with fig leaves if we have born fruit?
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TrueIntent
- captain of 100
- Posts: 974
Re: Garments.
I hope you aren't referring to me, but Im going to make an assumption since Im one of the few on the debate side of this. Im real direct in my manner of speech when I am typing, but I promise IM not angry. I grew up in the south, I'm loud, and opinionated. But really sweet when you meet me. I lost my temple recommend over this.....what people do in secret is their business, but I personally refuse to pretend that I don't know "what their asking" when they ask about the "wearing" the cloth garment. I know that they are "asking" if I wear the cloth garment this way.. Can I be bold, and not passive aggressive when I talk to my bishop. Why can't I just say what I believe, and have a temple recommend. I have studied the endowment more than anyone I personally know. Why am I the offensive one when I go into my bishop's office, and why is he a "steward" over me when I received a witness greater to than the knowledge he did. I don't understanding how the gospel is being administer through the church. Basically, do what you want in secret just don't tell anyone??? I can't even comprehend that for me. IM not saying that's what you do. Im just saying, I don't have a good conscience. Why can't I answer with good conciense without fear of retribution from the church? I know I am worthy, otherwise God wouldn't have given me witnesses of it....BUT others don't believe that I am, because HE hasn't given the church (handbook) that same understanding.Alaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2018, 1:45 pm I am unsurprised that a thread like this may attract those who understand the gospel better than the rest of us, and rather than persuade per D&C 121, we see this attitude of condemnation that always seems to be laced with anger and contempt by those who obviously know the Gospel of Jesus Christ better than we do...those who seem to be incensed at those who are saying "it's between you and God" - which it is by the way. Perhaps I'm reading that wrong, and that may just be the F in my INFJ talking.
But that is not the ultimate purpose of the handbook teaching on the garment (its a school master), Im just challenging others to take me up on this challenge. See if God will not bear you up. He will. Its scary to go in an interview when you have followed all the rules and say that the spirit tells you something different....for example, we sufferer from lack of discussion in the church. More people are looking for meat. Some of us have already made meat offerings ( my hope is that those who struggle will see what I have offered, and see if they need to offer the same). Im not saying you haven't, I'm just bearing witness that I have. You are very knowledgeable about the gospel and ordinances, as well as old testament. I hope you will read the post that I just posted. Im not malicious.....im just blunt
. I don't mean to be offensive. I really appreciate all the writing you do. You yourself, are someone who seeks out personal revelation....i hope you'll take a look at some of my stuff. I don't dimiss your understanding. I hope you won't dismiss mine. are we both not worshipers in the body of Christ? Hopefully I haven't offended you, anyone else on this thread. I have a testimony of what I believe on this subject if I haven't made that clear ...wink wink..-
TrueIntent
- captain of 100
- Posts: 974
Re: Garments.
Here is the ancient pictograph of Gods name....study the symbols with my post if you are interested.. Btw alaris. I don't know as much as you know about the Davidic Servant...but when you instruct others, I don't assume you are a Know it all....I assume, that you have more knowledge and maybe I could learn something from you. But that doesn't mean we have to agree even if you do have more knowledge....All I'm saying is....were all "brothers and sisters". I wasn't dissing you. I promise. But I do completely disagree with those who say we "wear" the garment how we want in secret. That is a false teaching. Im adamant of it. Prove me wrong through scripture. But to prove me wrong, you must begin with the premises that Melkezedek (changing of robes), is a spiritual covering or priesthood given by GOD (see passages, this matches my personal witness...plus all the other versus in scripture...i think alma 13.cant remember) Because all my spiritual witnesses are based on this and confirmed by it. If we Claim to be "endowed" we must do it openly. Theres no hiding it.
25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
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Alaris
- Captain of 144,000
- Posts: 7354
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Re: Garments.
I appreciate the good words, and compliments. Your passion definitely shows which may be misconstrued by those who haven't spent as much time studying / praying about this. However, I don't know that I've seen anyone here say anything that leads me to believe anyone is taking the stance to wear the garment how you want in secret. "It's between you and God" to me means that you don't make that decision alone - that you study the issue, ponder, and pray, and become in tune with the Holy Spirit. If what you are teaching is true, then won't the spirit lead towards that end?TrueIntent wrote: ↑July 19th, 2018, 2:12 pm Here is the ancient pictograph of Gods name....study the symbols with my post if you are interested.. Btw alaris. I don't know as much as you know about the Davidic Servant...but when you instruct others, I don't assume you are a Know it all....I assume, that you have more knowledge and maybe I could learn something from you. But that doesn't mean we have to agree even if you do have more knowledge....All I'm saying is....were all "brothers and sisters". I wasn't dissing you. I promise. But I do completely disagree with those who say we "wear" the garment how we want in secret. That is a false teaching. Im adamant of it. Prove me wrong through scripture. But to prove me wrong, you must begin with the premises that Melkezedek (changing of robes), is a spiritual covering or priesthood given by GOD (see passages, this matches my personal witness...plus all the other versus in scripture...i think alma 13.cant remember) Because all my spiritual witnesses are based on this and confirmed by it. If we Claim to be "endowed" we must do it openly. Theres no hiding it.
25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
However - People are at different stages in spiritual progression and will consequently, absolutely be held to different levels of accountability accordingly. Truth is truth; but, though God probably doesn't usually tell everyone who passes a passed-out drunkard to slay said person, he sometimes does. So, let's be persuasive in what we have learned and teach by the spirit so that message can be personalized by the spirit to the recipient.
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TrueIntent
- captain of 100
- Posts: 974
Re: Garments.
Passion is the perfect word to describe me....my sister said the same thing about me yesterday. I'll take that as a sign. You're absolutely right about different levels....I direct my comments to those who have received a baptism of fire, and and seek an "anointing." or have the desire to be anointed and don't know where to begin. . I think we were "foreordained" to make certain offerings in the preexistence , but its a choice if we choose to here. Then, the endowment, is the symbol of wearing it. I don't believe everyone should, or will decide to. The spirit won't prompt them to or they will choose not to for various reasons. Can someone where the "garment" and be endowed...of course....our witnesses of the spirit will be different, but follow the same pattern. The passages about the "elect" having their eyes open...(enoch and others experience something similar).....those who are not elect are blind. Anyway, in one of my witnesses, my eyes were opened, and it had to do with Elijah. So, my passion is fittingAlaris wrote: ↑July 19th, 2018, 2:34 pmI appreciate the good words, and compliments. Your passion definitely shows which may be misconstrued by those who haven't spent as much time studying / praying about this. However, I don't know that I've seen anyone here say anything that leads me to believe anyone is taking the stance to wear the garment how you want in secret. "It's between you and God" to me means that you don't make that decision alone - that you study the issue, ponder, and pray, and become in tune with the Holy Spirit. If what you are teaching is true, then won't the spirit lead towards that end?TrueIntent wrote: ↑July 19th, 2018, 2:12 pm Here is the ancient pictograph of Gods name....study the symbols with my post if you are interested.. Btw alaris. I don't know as much as you know about the Davidic Servant...but when you instruct others, I don't assume you are a Know it all....I assume, that you have more knowledge and maybe I could learn something from you. But that doesn't mean we have to agree even if you do have more knowledge....All I'm saying is....were all "brothers and sisters". I wasn't dissing you. I promise. But I do completely disagree with those who say we "wear" the garment how we want in secret. That is a false teaching. Im adamant of it. Prove me wrong through scripture. But to prove me wrong, you must begin with the premises that Melkezedek (changing of robes), is a spiritual covering or priesthood given by GOD (see passages, this matches my personal witness...plus all the other versus in scripture...i think alma 13.cant remember) Because all my spiritual witnesses are based on this and confirmed by it. If we Claim to be "endowed" we must do it openly. Theres no hiding it.
25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
However - People are at different stages in spiritual progression and will consequently, absolutely be held to different levels of accountability accordingly. Truth is truth; but, though God probably doesn't usually tell everyone who passes a passed-out drunkard to slay said person, he sometimes does. So, let's be persuasive in what we have learned and teach by the spirit so that message can be personalized by the spirit to the recipient.
Here is the versus of scripture I refer to (see below)....i don't know what it means for others, but i know what it means for me. I weave all my scripture study through certain witnesses I received. My belief is that my revelation should not contradict scripture. I just came across a passage in Joseph Smith Papers where joseph is basically saying the same thing about himself....that he's read 4 different translations of the bible, and none of his revelation has ever contradicted any of them. Im no joseph, but it gives me comfort to know that my understanding matches these pieces of tidbits I get from records. I have been told for the last three years by religious people in my family, friends, and church, that I must follow false spirits or have been deceived (same people who act in hypocrisy). I have been laughed at "for taking the gospel to seriously" when I wore the garment so obediently before ( how was I to know that other people didn't wear it as strictly as me, I was just being obedient). When I didn't understand the ordinances its because I obeyed the rules not to talk about them outside the temple, and to limit conversation inside..then I served as a worker to learn more...nothing...the only thing i can take from this is that we are supposed to ask God, I believe this is what the actual ordinance points to...we must be not just endowed with an ordinance, but with power. It's always been my fault not my "teachers".....so now I just go to god, and hang out with my internet friends on the forum. God started giving me witnesses when I went directly to him. I feel like I am a witness of mormonism and the endowment...but people, in the church, often see me as the opposite, as someone trying to tear it down. The truth is, we will tear it down ourselves if we don't fix all the ways we contradict teachings in our cultural ideas. People will see us as hypocrites who have lots of knowledge without understanding. This is what I have experienced. I know lots of people who have already left because of all these contradictions. 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day
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Hie'ing to Kolob
- captain of 100
- Posts: 709
Re: Garments.
I could not disagree with this anymore. Let's be real here. The garment itself is meaningless. It doesn't have "power" it doesn't do or provide anything of the sort. It is purely symbolic. The symbols themselves are generally masonic in origin and certainly not anything looked to or honored in the old testament or new testament or Book of Mormon. The act of putting on the garment is a type of being born again and a symbol of a different or changed individual who has dedicated themselves to God. That is where the value is. My opinion is that JS brought the idea of the garment up, not because it is itself meaningful, but because it is a vehicle to teach us a principle. Very similar to the endowment session. The ritual itself is borrowed from Masonic rites, as a means to instruct and teach, not as THE object of our devotion or belief.
It is a good litmus test of someone's devotion to the Church, but not at all a litmus test of someone's devotion to God.
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tdj
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1493
Re: Garments.
I can't tell you if you should or shouldn't, but I have the same issue with the heat. I live in an area where what's considered hot in Utah, where garments originated, isn't what's considered hot down where I live. For most of the months out of the year, I do just fine, but during the very hottest, peak months of say, July and August, when I'm outside, I have to take off my top part. Also during certain times of the month, I have to not wear my bottoms because it's just so hot and it's just one more layer of clothing. But I try to keep that at a minimum as much as possible. My biggest struggle right now is convincing my spouse that I'm really supposed to wear them to bed.Az Dubs wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 10:03 pm This may not be allowed here, and if not then go ahead and delete this post.
My question is about my garments. It's hot where I live, even with A/C and fans and I don't sleep well at all. Until I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I've not worn a top, when sleeping. Can I not wear my top, so I can sleep comfortably? I'm on meds to prevent seizures (which were caused in part by sleep deprivation) and I'm nervous about my sleep/lack of....
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tdj
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1493
Re: Garments.
I'm a fairly new convert. Joined the church several years ago in my late thirties, so maybe the thinking is different for me, BUT, I don't need my garments to remind me of anything really. When you've been where I've been and gotten a taste of what I've been exposed too, then a conversion at my age probably isn't the same as say when you are only 8. I think it's like the parable of Jesus when he spoke of the debtor who was forgiven of much vs the one who owed very little. But I wear them because I've been asked too. Like I posted to someone else, it can be a struggle because of the humidity and heat, but I do my best.Dusty52 wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 11:32 pm You ask a very good question
I'm sorry to hear of your struggles with your health
It is my understanding that we wear our garments to help us to remember, the special and sacred covenants we have made with the lord in the temple. When I was at the MTC I was told every time you put your garments say to yourself "I am a covenant making person". Garments are there as a reminder of the commitments and obligations we have made. We are instructed to wear them 24/7. If you have a medical condition speak to your bishop and he will advise accordingly. Remember it is an outward sign of our commitment to the Lord, however the Lord is more concerned with what's in your heart. Have a look at 1 Samuel 16:7.
You've joined a very good forum, I've only just joined myself
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Serragon
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3464
Re: Garments.
The garment represents the initial covenants and promises made when leaving the Garden of Eden. It is the symbolic clothing given to us by Christ Himself to protect us and allow us to succeed in the telestial world. it is worn next to the body because all else is built upon these initial covenants. They should be considered very sacred by each of us.
If you can't sleep because it is too hot, take the top off and go to sleep. Their purpose is not to punish us. Quite the opposite.
If you can't sleep because it is too hot, take the top off and go to sleep. Their purpose is not to punish us. Quite the opposite.
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tdj
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1493
Re: Garments.
Yeah, but they cost about $4.00 a piece. Not everyone can afford it.jahallem wrote: ↑July 19th, 2018, 12:50 pm Try the new stretch cotton garments. They just came on the market this year. I live in 106 degree weather and have always been miserable wearing the garments in the summer but I have endured the heat because of the covenants. I love the new garments. They breath and I stay so much cooler in them. My bra stays in place as well. I even forget that I have them on. I know how you feel and I hope that the new garments will help you as they have helped me.
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TrueIntent
- captain of 100
- Posts: 974
Re: Garments.
2 Nephi 26tdj wrote: ↑July 20th, 2018, 12:19 pmYeah, but they cost about $4.00 a piece. Not everyone can afford it.jahallem wrote: ↑July 19th, 2018, 12:50 pm Try the new stretch cotton garments. They just came on the market this year. I live in 106 degree weather and have always been miserable wearing the garments in the summer but I have endured the heat because of the covenants. I love the new garments. They breath and I stay so much cooler in them. My bra stays in place as well. I even forget that I have them on. I know how you feel and I hope that the new garments will help you as they have helped me.
25 Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.
26 Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.
27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.
So can someone tell me why we are commanded to buy a piece of cloth? I thought the gospel/truths were purchased without money.
Do we cast people out of our temples for not purchasing what God has commanded to be free? (Dual meaning rhetorical question. )
Is it not free to rich, poor, bond and freeman? Are we limiting access by charging $4 for a pair of underwear? Are we limiting access where the wealthy have lighter burdens than the poor in a building that symbolizes we are all equals dressed in white? Should we be charging at all? We are violating commandments on one end while keeping others.
I also don’t advocate giving goods away for free, we must all work for our own bread, as the apostle Paul taught. So no free underwear in my book.
Now we find ourselves trapped. At some point we find ourselves damned. At some point a law becomes dead.
Who releases us from the bondage of one law, and elevates us to another? Is it a prophet or is it Christ? Can one man judge another or command another without being out of the way himself?
What was the purpose of that law that you found yourself trapped in?
God does not change. He is the same yesterday today and forever? But we are commanded to change our robes from one order to another, one where “my yolk is easy my burden is light”.
Just some thoughts. He who has ears....well....let him hear. I’m making a point.
