LDS Freedom Forum

I AM wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 11:48 am They all can't be right.
So who is right - the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or Joseph Smith ?
you decide by the scriptures below.

Alaris has also said that the Holy Ghost was the Davidic Servant
in his post "The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost"
but how could this be by what the scriptures say below.


Joseph Smith taught

"But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again." (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

On the doctrine that the Holy Ghost will one day receive a body,
Franklin D. Richards records in his writings the following:
"Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same as a similar course of things
that the Son has"
(in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, Words of Joseph Smith [Provo, Utah: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1980], 245).

Joseph Smith also has been noted as saying that the Holy Ghost is a calling or an office.

this is a comment by someone

"The Holy Ghost is an office. Before it fell upon Adam to become the Holy Ghost, another filled that office. I find this quote from President Young inspired: "It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." --JD 1:51, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852 This reveals that the Michael (who became Adam) is represented in the Deity as the Holy Ghost. Besides, it is revealed in revelation (2BC 23) that Adam did take upon himself the office of the Holy Ghost when he died."

--------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants 20:28,

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God,
infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

2 Nephi 32
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
3 Nephi 11
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me;
for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

Mormon 7:7

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Mosiah 15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Ether 4

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ;
for I am he who speaketh.

11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.


John 12
"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


44 ¶ Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

I AM wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 11:48 amAlaris has also said that the Holy Ghost was the Davidic Servant
in his post "The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost"
but how could this be by what the scriptures say below.

I AM wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 11:50 am Mormonism and the Holy Ghost


A. Who Is the Holy Ghost?

According to the LDS Church, all heavenly spirits other than the Father and his celestial wife (our “heavenly mother”), including Jesus, are their spirit sons and daughters. This doctrinal view has led some Mormons naturally to the conclusion that the Holy Ghost is another of God’s spirit sons. “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Holy Ghost is a spirit man, a spirit son of God the Father” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 6:249). In other words, according to some Mormons, the Holy Ghost is one of our spirit brothers in heaven—one who somehow became part of the Godhead. LDS leaders have officially neither endorsed nor denied this idea, and LDS theologians who advocate it have no explanation for how this might have happened.

The notion that the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) is one of God’s many spirit sons or some other deity separate from God himself not only has no support whatsoever in the Bible, it is inconsistent with what the Bible teaches. As we saw in our study of Mormon doctrine and the Trinity, the Holy Spirit is one God with the Father and the Son, so that the Bible calls him the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son (Jesus Christ). This inseparable relationship between the Holy Spirit and the other two divine persons implies that as “the eternal Spirit” (Hebrews 9:14) he has always been this divine Spirit. In other words, the Holy Spirit is not a spiritual being who somehow advanced to the status of a member of the Godhead, but rather he is and always has been the Lord God (Acts 5:3-4, 9; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18). By the grace of God in redemption, believers are adopted to become “brothers” to God’s one and only divine Son, Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29; Hebrews 2:11-18). This means that we were not and are not brothers of the Holy Spirit; nor are we heavenly beings that the Holy Ghost helps to reach their divine potential. Rather, it is by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we physical creatures are able to call God our Father (Romans 8:14-17; Galatians 4:4-6).

B. Does the Holy Spirit Dwell in the Hearts of Believers?
Earlier we quoted Joseph Smith’s statement in 1843, “The Holy Ghost is a personage and a person cannot have the personage of the H[oly] G[host] in his heart.” This is how the statement reads in the diary of Joseph Smith kept for him in 1843 by Willard Richards. Years after Joseph’s death, this statement appeared in the History of the Church (5:325) rewritten as follows: “…the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.” This is also how the statement appears in D&C 130, which was added to Doctrine and Covenants in 1876 (see D&C 130:22). There is an apparent discrepancy between these two versions of Joseph Smith’s statement:
Joseph Smith’s sermon at Ramus, IL
(diary, April 1843)
History of the Church 5:325
D&C 130:22
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s. The Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage and a person cannot have the personage of the H[oly] G[host] in his heart.”

“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”

Mormons reconcile these two doctrinal claims (not necessarily the above two versions of Joseph’s statement) by asserting that while the personage of the Holy Ghost cannot literally dwell in a human being’s heart, he can dwell in their hearts figuratively through the influence of the Spirit, the light of Christ. Gospel Principles, for example, states regarding the Holy Ghost, “He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time” (32). The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states, “In a figurative sense, the Holy Ghost dwells in the hearts of the righteous Saints of all dispensations” (2:649). According to Joseph Fielding Smith, there is a difference between the Holy Ghost (“also called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter”), who is a personage, and “the other Spirit” that is the Light of Christ, which is an omnipresent influence:
"This man here, another one over there, and a man over in England, are confirmed members of the Church. The question arises, ‘How can the Holy Ghost be with them all at the same time?’ He does not have to be, but the power of the Holy Ghost is such that it can be manifest in every place at the same moment of time…. Thus when it becomes necessary to speak to us, he is able to do so by acting through the other Spirit, that is, through the Light of Christ" (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38, 40).

There are at least two problems with these explanations. The first is that the distinction has no support in the Bible. The “Spirit of Christ” and the “Holy Spirit” refer to the same divine person in the New Testament (see especially 1 Peter 1:11-12). Biblically, there is no “other Spirit” besides the Holy Spirit; Christians believe in “one Spirit” (Ephesians 4:4). The idea of an impersonal Spirit, a kind of divine force or energy, is unbiblical.
The second problem also has significant implications for our understanding of God and of the Christian life. As we have seen, the LDS Church teaches that the Holy Ghost cannot be in more than one place at a time and does not literally dwell in people’s hearts, although his influence can be felt everywhere and in the hearts of all faithful believers. This may sound like a reasonable distinction, but D&C 130:22 undermines this distinction in a surprising way. It states that the Father and the Son cannot dwell in human hearts because each of them has a body of flesh and bones (see also 130:3). The assumption here is that a physical being cannot literally inhabit the body of another physical being (let alone the bodies of all believing human beings). On the other hand, the Holy Ghost can “dwell in us” because he is not a physical being but rather a personage of Spirit. Yet the LDS doctrine now is that the Holy Ghost does not actually dwell in anyone, and indeed cannot dwell in everyone who believes because he cannot be in more than one place at a time. He “dwells” in people’s hearts only in the sense that his influence reaches their hearts in the form of the “Light of Christ,” the “Spirit of Christ” that is an omnipresent power or force.
In this figurative sense of “dwelling” in people’s hearts through the medium of a spiritual power or influence, could we not say that the Father or the Son can also “dwell” in people’s hearts? If the dwelling in people’s hearts is figurative, what is it about having bodies of flesh and bones that prevents the Father or the Son from dwelling figuratively in people’s hearts through the supposed impersonal energy or power that extends their influence everywhere? The claim that the Holy Ghost’s dwelling in human hearts is figurative undermines the distinction in D&C 130:22 between the Father and the Son, who because they have physical bodies cannot dwell in people’s hearts, and the Holy Ghost, who because he is a personage of spirit can do so. That distinction is completely irrelevant if the Holy Ghost does not actually dwell in people’s hearts.
The issue here is not merely one of abstract theological interest. It pertains directly to what sort of God we claim to worship and how we relate to this God. The three Gods of the LDS Church’s doctrine are all embodied, localized deities that can each be in only one place at a time. None of these Gods is actually here with us, right now. None of them can actually dwell in our hearts (or at least not in all of us all at once and so not in any of us at all times). The Holy Ghost is not really God (though in a secondary sense he is “a God”), but is one of the sons of Heavenly Father and the heavenly mother, and he can be “present” only through the medium of an impersonal force or power. When a Mormon thinks he feels the power of the Holy Ghost, what his own doctrine says is that he is feeling, not the personal presence of God himself, but an impersonal force emanating from one of several divine beings whose relationship to God is not even known.
How different the biblical conception of the Holy Spirit is! The Holy Spirit is himself the Lord; he is God (Acts 5:3-9; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18). God is one indivisible, infinite Spirit, personally and fully present everywhere at the same time (Genesis 28:15; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalm 139:7-10; Jeremiah 23:23-24; John 4:20-24; Acts 17:27-28; Ephesians 4:10-11). Thus, because he is God, the Holy Spirit can and does dwell in the hearts of everyone who truly believes in the Son Jesus Christ (Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 John 4:4). In fact, because God is one indivisible being, those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells have the Father and the Son dwelling in them as well (John 14:23; 2 Corinthians 13:5). This personal union with Christ through the literal dwelling of the Holy Spirit provides to those who truly trust in Christ a quiet but firm assurance of God’s acceptance and of eternal life (Romans 8:9-16).

C. What the Holy Spirit Does
Some of what the LDS Church teaches about the work or activities of the Holy Ghost agrees with the Bible. Mormons believe that the Holy Ghost bears witness to the Father and the Son (Gospel Principles, 32). Similarly, the Bible affirms that the Holy Spirit bears witness especially to the Son, Jesus Christ, revealing him to be our Savior and Lord (John 15:26; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 1 John 5:6).
On the other hand, some LDS teachings about the work of the Holy Spirit do not agree with the Bible. Three examples appear in the Gospel Principles chapter on the Holy Spirit.
The LDS Church teaches that the Holy Ghost taught Adam and Eve the gospel: “The Lord sent the Holy Ghost to testify of the Father and of the Son and to teach Adam and Eve the gospel” (Gospel Principles, 31). This statement reflects the LDS belief that the gospel of Jesus Christ—the “plan of salvation”—was known just as clearly and explicitly thousands of years before Jesus came as it is today. We see this idea especially in the Book of Mormon, where prophets hundreds of years before Jesus actually referred to him by name and explicitly described his work of salvation. The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that godly people, and even holy angels, before the coming of Jesus into the world did not know what God had planned. Even the Old Testament prophets who prophesied about the coming Messiah did not know specifically who, when, or how:“As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look” (1 Peter 1:10-12).
Gospel Principles makes the claim that the Holy Spirit “will help us understand that we can become exalted like our heavenly Father. (See Romans 8:16-17.)” (32). Here is what Paul says: “The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him in order that we may be glorified with him” (Romans 8:16-17). What Paul says is that we can become glorified like Christ, not exalted like Heavenly Father. There is a big difference. To become glorified like Christ means to become perfect human beings bearing the image of God as exemplified in his Son Jesus Christ, resurrected to perfect, immortal life (Romans 8:18-29). What Mormons mean by becoming exalted like Heavenly Father is becoming a God—something that will never happen (Isaiah 43:10).
Finally, the LDS Church claims that the Holy Ghost will bear “witness” to the truth of Mormonism. As has just been mentioned, Gospel Principles claims that the Holy Ghost will help us understand that we can become Gods. It also asserts that the Holy Ghost will testify to us that we were preexistent spirit children of the Father (32). More generally, the LDS Church claims that we should seek a witness of the Holy Ghost as the means to “know the truth of all things” (Moroni 10:5), including the truth of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and the LDS Church itself. To this we must insist that the Holy Spirit will never reveal or testify to anything that disagrees with what he has already revealed in the Bible, which he inspired (2 Peter 1:20-21; 3:15-16). That is, the Holy Spirit will never contradict himself. Thus, when Joseph Smith begins by teaching that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, changes to the view that they are two personages in one Godhead, and finally moves to the view that they are three Gods, we know that these supposed revelations cannot all come from the Holy Spirit. The way God wants us to determine if new teaching is from God is to compare that teaching with what we already know is Scripture (Acts 17:11). If we honestly and humbly seek God’s truth from his Word in this way, we may be assured that the real Holy Spirit will communicate truth to us consistently through the genuine Scriptures that he inspired (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 1:08 pm I believe the Davidic Servant is the son of the holy ghost.

Father - God
Son - Saviour
Grandson - Spirit
Great Grandson - David.

I AM wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 5:44 pm I'm sorry about the confusion Alaris, but this post isn't about you, or really directed to you anyway.
and isn't about the Davidic servant , directly anyway.
And I sorry if you are offended because my opinion doesn't agree with yours.

My post is about the Holy Ghost, and that I don't happen to believe that
what Joseph Smith said is true.
I believe in what I have already stated in the scriptures I've posted and in my comments.
You however see it from a completely different view because you
believe in What JS said that
"The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body"
and that
"The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."

and therefore because of this you believe that the Holy Ghost will be the Davidic servant.
I do not.
But like I said, this post isn't about the Davidic servant,
It's about who or what is the Holy Ghost; which I believe is
that it's simple Christ's spirit, as the scriptures say it is.
I believe you are not seeing that because you believe in what JS said.

If you don't believe the Holy Ghost is Christ, how do you account for these scriptures
and all the others I've posted.

2 Nephi 32
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear MY VOICE, and open the door, I WILL COME IN TO HIM, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20)

So the 'Spirit' speaking in Revelation was Jesus Christ Himself
-------------------
Matthew 18:20 ...'For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.'

John 14:16-20 ...'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.'

Acts 1:1-2 ...'The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken up, after that
HE through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.'

"Now, many people look at this 'comforter' quote in John above and just automatically think that Jesus was talking about sending someone else. And yet Jesus reveals in these verses exactly who the comforter was going to be.
Jesus told the disciples that they knew the comforter, because He was actually with them in physical form. Who was with them? Christ Himself! Jesus told the disciples that He would not leave us comfortless,
HE would come to us HIMSELF!
And Jesus also confirmed that HE would be the one inside us,
not someone else!

ElizaRSkousen wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 1:08 pm I believe the Davidic Servant is the son of the holy ghost.

Alaris wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 12:11 pm

I AM wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 11:48 am They all can't be right.
So who is right - the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or Joseph Smith ?
you decide by the scriptures below.

Alaris has also said that the Holy Ghost was the Davidic Servant
in his post "The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost" but how could this be by what the scriptures say below.


Joseph Smith taught

"But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again." (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

On the doctrine that the Holy Ghost will one day receive a body,
Franklin D. Richards records in his writings the following:
"Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same as a similar course of things that the Son has" - (in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, Words of Joseph Smith [Provo, Utah: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1980], 245).

Joseph Smith also has been noted as saying that the Holy Ghost is a calling or an office.

--------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants 20:28,

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

2 Nephi 32
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
3 Nephi 11
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

Mormon 7
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Mosiah 15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Ether 4
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.
11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.
12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

John 12
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
44 ¶ Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

I AM wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 11:48 amAlaris has also said that the Holy Ghost was the Davidic Servant
in his post "The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost"
but how could this be by what the scriptures say below.

How couldn't this be? How does this conflict with anything I've said? I've used those quotes from Joseph Smith and Franklin Richards because they help prove this truth. Then you paste a bunch of scriptures with no sort of explanation as to how any of this contradicts, which they don't, of course. These "this isn't true" or "this can't be" threads crack me up because we LDS should know better than this. The truth doesn't require you to go attacking somebody else's beliefs. Make your own case as to the proper interpretation. The truth shines a bright, shiny light and chases away darkness all on its own and doesn't require you to cast magic missile at the darkness (lol.) Attacking another's beliefs only happens from a position of doubt and insecurity.

So I'll present the question back to you - as of Joseph Smith's day Joseph said the Holy Ghost is yet to take upon himself a body. If this is true, then do you think he's just going to live a normal, quiet life under the radar - a member of the Godhead? Who else might he be if not the one who comes at the end to prepare the way for Jesus Christ in the spirit and power of Elias? If Franklin Richard's quote is also true (it is) then might this mortality be HOW he overcomes his probation, just as Jesus overcame and inherited all by accomplishing His mortal ministry? He refers to the Father as perfect in the sermon in Jerusalem, and He refers to Himself and the Father as perfect in the American sermon.

You believe in a Davidic Servant - great! So we have all these prophecies - many, many prophecies about this end times servant - and this is just a coincidence, that - as of Joseph Smith's day - the Holy Ghost is yet to take upon himself a body, and there is this important end times servant who is not Jesus Christ? And think of the quantity of prophecies about the Davidic Servant - why are there so many of them where other prophets had few to none about them? What's different here? Could it be he is a member of the Godhead?

Lastly, if you have read through my thread on the matter, there are SO MANY confirmations of this truth. The Holy Ghost is nameless! The Angel of the Lord - nameless. The Angel of the Lord, called the mouth of YHWH, speaks for YHWH - appears in the burning bush, giving off glory - tells Joshua to take off his sandals for he was standing on Holy Ground, just as he did Moses. The High Priest, and the many, many symbols of his office, the rod of Aaron, Aaron - the mouthpiece of God - where Jehovah tells Moses he is in place of God and Aaron in place of his mouth - this great symbol of these two Gods. Paul, stating that the High Priest on Yom Kippur signifies the Holy Ghost - and the great "coincidence" that this ordinance fortells what the Davidic Servant is doing - advocating for his people by the blood of sacrifice - the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And being granted an audience in the Holy of Holies is emblematic of the man child in Revelation 12 who is caught up to God and his throne. And on, and on, and on.

I'm going to let you in on a secret here I AM. This knowledge was handed to me. The Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost was just given to me. It took me years to overcome cognitive dissonance and start looking at this truth with faith. As soon as I did, immediately someone else chimes in on LDSFF claiming the same truth - something I'm sure you've never heard before. I mean, have you? I haven't! Just look at Joseph Smith's quote about the Holy Ghost coming in the flesh, and NOBODY SPECULATES ON THIS?? Nobody has concluded he may have some important work to do in executing the covenants of God to Israel? A member of the Godhead no less?

So, until you have opened yourself to this truth - and I'm not saying it's easy. It wasn't for me ... at all ... but until you look with sincerity, you're as convincing to me as an antimormon who says the Book of Mormon isn't true who never looked for himself.

TheChristian wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 9:22 am I am but a simple Christian, I come to know the Lord Jesus when young, thru a very biblical manner, though I belonged to no church.
I recall some goodly christians telling me about heaven, of what God looked like, some of which made me feel depressed in spirit and so since I had encounters with Jesus aforetimes I knew I could ask Him concerning such matters.
And so one night I prayed confessing my sins, a mighty wonderous power fell apon me, filling me with a glory, Joy, vibrancy and love that cannot be put into words. I wept, suddenly beside me stood a see thru person from which this glorious power flowed into my entire being.
I asked the Lord Jesus what He looked like in heaven, the darkened room began to fill with a great light, and the power that had fallen apon me grew stronger and stronger filling me with an indescribable glory that by far exceeded what I felt in the beiginning, all of which flowed from the Spirit person standing beside me, in the midst of said light there began to be swirls of color which swiftly developed into a wonderous panoramic scene.
I beheld my lord Jesus, he was dressed in a thin red robe, at either side of Him and behind Him were men dressed in white robes, all of whom seemed to adore Him.
The personage of Spirit that was revealing all this to me suddenly spoke to me, he said " Look Tony, your Redeemer and you can hold Him as one man holds another!"
And so I looked more intently, yes the Lord Jesus had a flesh body in heaven, so did the men in white robes that was with Him, and they all were standing apon a beautiful perfect earth. They were all in the very prime of life with flesh bodies of utter perfection that could never perish
So now I knew what Jesus looked like and understood what scripture said we were made in the image of the Lord.
The personage of Spirit that stood beside me was the Holy Ghost, He was in the form of a man, but did not have a flesh body, He did not look like Jesus and He did not speak about Himself, but it seemed to me that His work, yes his greatest joy was to bear witness to Jesus of Nazerath.

"Jesus is the Living God of Israel!"

So if the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ’s actual selfsame spirit, how do we receive it?
He is a resurrected being. His spirit and body are inseparable.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 8:17 pm Just because someone claimed Joseph Smith taught it doesn't mean he did.

JS said abide the scriptures not statements because will claim to be from him years after he was murdered https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/

ransomme wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 2:45 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 12:11 pm

I AM wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 11:48 am They all can't be right.
So who is right - the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or Joseph Smith ?
you decide by the scriptures below.

Alaris has also said that the Holy Ghost was the Davidic Servant
in his post "The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost" but how could this be by what the scriptures say below.


Joseph Smith taught

"But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. . . . He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again." (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382; standardized)

On the doctrine that the Holy Ghost will one day receive a body,
Franklin D. Richards records in his writings the following:
"Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same as a similar course of things that the Son has" - (in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, Words of Joseph Smith [Provo, Utah: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1980], 245).

Joseph Smith also has been noted as saying that the Holy Ghost is a calling or an office.

--------------------------------
Doctrine and Covenants 20:28,

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

2 Nephi 32
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
3 Nephi 11
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

Mormon 7
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Mosiah 15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Ether 4
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.
11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.
12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

John 12
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
44 ¶ Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

I AM wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 11:48 amAlaris has also said that the Holy Ghost was the Davidic Servant
in his post "The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost"
but how could this be by what the scriptures say below.

How couldn't this be? How does this conflict with anything I've said? I've used those quotes from Joseph Smith and Franklin Richards because they help prove this truth. Then you paste a bunch of scriptures with no sort of explanation as to how any of this contradicts, which they don't, of course. These "this isn't true" or "this can't be" threads crack me up because we LDS should know better than this. The truth doesn't require you to go attacking somebody else's beliefs. Make your own case as to the proper interpretation. The truth shines a bright, shiny light and chases away darkness all on its own and doesn't require you to cast magic missile at the darkness (lol.) Attacking another's beliefs only happens from a position of doubt and insecurity.

So I'll present the question back to you - as of Joseph Smith's day Joseph said the Holy Ghost is yet to take upon himself a body. If this is true, then do you think he's just going to live a normal, quiet life under the radar - a member of the Godhead? Who else might he be if not the one who comes at the end to prepare the way for Jesus Christ in the spirit and power of Elias? If Franklin Richard's quote is also true (it is) then might this mortality be HOW he overcomes his probation, just as Jesus overcame and inherited all by accomplishing His mortal ministry? He refers to the Father as perfect in the sermon in Jerusalem, and He refers to Himself and the Father as perfect in the American sermon.

You believe in a Davidic Servant - great! So we have all these prophecies - many, many prophecies about this end times servant - and this is just a coincidence, that - as of Joseph Smith's day - the Holy Ghost is yet to take upon himself a body, and there is this important end times servant who is not Jesus Christ? And think of the quantity of prophecies about the Davidic Servant - why are there so many of them where other prophets had few to none about them? What's different here? Could it be he is a member of the Godhead?

Lastly, if you have read through my thread on the matter, there are SO MANY confirmations of this truth. The Holy Ghost is nameless! The Angel of the Lord - nameless. The Angel of the Lord, called the mouth of YHWH, speaks for YHWH - appears in the burning bush, giving off glory - tells Joshua to take off his sandals for he was standing on Holy Ground, just as he did Moses. The High Priest, and the many, many symbols of his office, the rod of Aaron, Aaron - the mouthpiece of God - where Jehovah tells Moses he is in place of God and Aaron in place of his mouth - this great symbol of these two Gods. Paul, stating that the High Priest on Yom Kippur signifies the Holy Ghost - and the great "coincidence" that this ordinance fortells what the Davidic Servant is doing - advocating for his people by the blood of sacrifice - the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And being granted an audience in the Holy of Holies is emblematic of the man child in Revelation 12 who is caught up to God and his throne. And on, and on, and on.

I'm going to let you in on a secret here I AM. This knowledge was handed to me. The Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost was just given to me. It took me years to overcome cognitive dissonance and start looking at this truth with faith. As soon as I did, immediately someone else chimes in on LDSFF claiming the same truth - something I'm sure you've never heard before. I mean, have you? I haven't! Just look at Joseph Smith's quote about the Holy Ghost coming in the flesh, and NOBODY SPECULATES ON THIS?? Nobody has concluded he may have some important work to do in executing the covenants of God to Israel? A member of the Godhead no less?

So, until you have opened yourself to this truth - and I'm not saying it's easy. It wasn't for me ... at all ... but until you look with sincerity, you're as convincing to me as an antimormon who says the Book of Mormon isn't true who never looked for himself.

Why does the Holy Ghost need to take a body now?

It seems to me like the HG in the Joseph quote, would become the Messiah for another creation, performing the same exact role as Jesus in this creation.

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 7:45 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 2:45 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑July 18th, 2018, 12:11 pm



How couldn't this be? How does this conflict with anything I've said? I've used those quotes from Joseph Smith and Franklin Richards because they help prove this truth. Then you paste a bunch of scriptures with no sort of explanation as to how any of this contradicts, which they don't, of course. These "this isn't true" or "this can't be" threads crack me up because we LDS should know better than this. The truth doesn't require you to go attacking somebody else's beliefs. Make your own case as to the proper interpretation. The truth shines a bright, shiny light and chases away darkness all on its own and doesn't require you to cast magic missile at the darkness (lol.) Attacking another's beliefs only happens from a position of doubt and insecurity.

So I'll present the question back to you - as of Joseph Smith's day Joseph said the Holy Ghost is yet to take upon himself a body. If this is true, then do you think he's just going to live a normal, quiet life under the radar - a member of the Godhead? Who else might he be if not the one who comes at the end to prepare the way for Jesus Christ in the spirit and power of Elias? If Franklin Richard's quote is also true (it is) then might this mortality be HOW he overcomes his probation, just as Jesus overcame and inherited all by accomplishing His mortal ministry? He refers to the Father as perfect in the sermon in Jerusalem, and He refers to Himself and the Father as perfect in the American sermon.

You believe in a Davidic Servant - great! So we have all these prophecies - many, many prophecies about this end times servant - and this is just a coincidence, that - as of Joseph Smith's day - the Holy Ghost is yet to take upon himself a body, and there is this important end times servant who is not Jesus Christ? And think of the quantity of prophecies about the Davidic Servant - why are there so many of them where other prophets had few to none about them? What's different here? Could it be he is a member of the Godhead?

Lastly, if you have read through my thread on the matter, there are SO MANY confirmations of this truth. The Holy Ghost is nameless! The Angel of the Lord - nameless. The Angel of the Lord, called the mouth of YHWH, speaks for YHWH - appears in the burning bush, giving off glory - tells Joshua to take off his sandals for he was standing on Holy Ground, just as he did Moses. The High Priest, and the many, many symbols of his office, the rod of Aaron, Aaron - the mouthpiece of God - where Jehovah tells Moses he is in place of God and Aaron in place of his mouth - this great symbol of these two Gods. Paul, stating that the High Priest on Yom Kippur signifies the Holy Ghost - and the great "coincidence" that this ordinance fortells what the Davidic Servant is doing - advocating for his people by the blood of sacrifice - the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And being granted an audience in the Holy of Holies is emblematic of the man child in Revelation 12 who is caught up to God and his throne. And on, and on, and on.

I'm going to let you in on a secret here I AM. This knowledge was handed to me. The Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost was just given to me. It took me years to overcome cognitive dissonance and start looking at this truth with faith. As soon as I did, immediately someone else chimes in on LDSFF claiming the same truth - something I'm sure you've never heard before. I mean, have you? I haven't! Just look at Joseph Smith's quote about the Holy Ghost coming in the flesh, and NOBODY SPECULATES ON THIS?? Nobody has concluded he may have some important work to do in executing the covenants of God to Israel? A member of the Godhead no less?

So, until you have opened yourself to this truth - and I'm not saying it's easy. It wasn't for me ... at all ... but until you look with sincerity, you're as convincing to me as an antimormon who says the Book of Mormon isn't true who never looked for himself.

Why does the Holy Ghost need to take a body now?

It seems to me like the HG in the Joseph quote, would become the Messiah for another creation, performing the same exact role as Jesus in this creation.

Indeed. That is also my understanding of Joseph's quote. Father, Son, HG. They are titles. Callings. Steps in an eternal progression. Logically speaking, our current HG would be the Son of the NEXT creation. That is the "probation" Joseph was referring to. Part of HIS personal progression.

Obviously the Godhead is eons ahead of us in this regard. But the initial premise seems sound and correct to me.
Elohim- Father
Jehovah- Son
Micheal - Holy Ghost

It also appears that to some extent there is a "hand off" that occurs upon a new creation. If Micheal is Adam, and this earth is his dominion,and the human family is his posterity, he is already to some degree, experiencing the exaltation that defines a Father role.

Ironically, Adam also had a righteous son, who offered a true and willing sacrifice and was accepted (Abel). And another son whose offering was rejected, and who also slew his brother. As a result he became fallen, cast out, rejected. Leading away the souls of men. Master Mahan. (Cain). All things existed spiritually before they existed temporally. As on earth, so it is in heaven and vice versa. It's literally as if the heavenly characters each passed the torch to a mortal character on earth.

I have my own thoughts on MMP's and how I think to some extent, our mortal experience is not singular, but rather a cycle. Perhaps some of the characters from the first "scene" reappear in subsequent chapters. Perhaps we ALL do. The concept of MMP's if true, accounts for so much that is otherwise unexplained. Perhaps our entire concept of "dispensations" is better defined as chapters or cycles, with many, if not all characters having recurring roles and themes.

Plot twist: What if we ALL have lived and experienced EACH of the dispensations?