The faith to heal yourself??

[JohnnyL]

It will be an interesting experience when we get to the other side and recognize all of blessings that came from God but that we attributed to ourselves or other things

No reason to not be clear about it now. EVERY GOOD THING is a miracle, a blessing from God because of Jesus Christ. So yes, billions and billions of "miracles" every day, for all from the truest believers to atheists.

Now that that's said...

[JohnnyL]

So, can Satan heal? Any clear examples?

Is all healing because of the Atonement, or not?

[righteousrepublic]

So, can Satan heal? Any clear examples?

Is all healing because of the Atonement, or not?

Satan can do no good.

[righteousrepublic]

Here is a piece from 1979:

October 1979
Can healings be real if they are not performed by the priesthood?


William E. Berrett, stake patriarch and professor emeritus of Church history and doctrine, Brigham Young University While considering this question, remember that one of the Lord’s apostles once said to him,

“Master we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

“And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” (Luke 9:49–50)

Clearly, it is good to be healed. And there are many ways to be healed in addition to the administration of the priesthood—by good health habits, herbs, medicines, and prayers of faith.

God has given us the Word of Wisdom as a health guide. He has also provided various herbs in the earth that have healing properties. We read in the book of Alma that “there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate.” (Alma 46:40)

For countless ages medicine men in all cultures have used many of nature’s remedies and have healed many people. And in our day, God has poured forth knowledge upon the earth which the medical profession has used to administer much relief to the sick and afflicted—thankfully going far beyond the limited herbal remedies available to earlier cultures.

God expects us to utilize all that he has provided to heal us of our afflictions. The question which has bothered man the most has had to do with healings in which none of nature’s known remedies or of man’s medical skill has been applied to the sick individual. These have usually been termed faith healings—healings which may have occurred either through the power of the mind over the body or by the administration of the power of God. While both of these methods are legitimate, they are often confused; healings caused by mind over body are frequently mistaken for priesthood healings.

The more we learn about the power of the mind over the body, the clearer it becomes that to some extent, and in ways still largely unknown to us, our mind can and does effect a powerful role in selected kinds of health improvement. Mostly, however, we are just beginning to glimpse these capabilities, rather than being able to implement them.

Countless healings have occurred through exercising the power of the mind over the physical body. Aboriginal doctors, for example, have employed sometimes devious methods to induce faith in the sick that they might be healed. Healings have often followed not because of the incantations of the doctor, but because of a natural law whereby the mind is able to affect the body.

The great preacher, George Fox, founder of the Society of Quakers, advocated faith healings with some success, though all too often the malady returned, only to be labeled by him as a punishment for disobedience to God. Other healings have occurred at shrines such as Mecca in Arabia, though only a very small proportion of those who go to be healed actually are. There have been some faith healings at revivalist meetings, but the permanence of some of the relief has been questioned. Further, Christian Scientists contend that pain does not exist but is only an error of the human faculty.

I believe that many who are healed by the power of the mind and the spirit over the body have not been led by men influenced by the devil but by good-intentioned individuals, and that the faith which has produced healings at shrines, for example, is not necessarily the work of the devil, but may have been simply the application of an unrecognized God-given principle of life. I also believe that when we classify all such healings as being of the devil, we do an unjustice to that group of well-meaning individuals who have induced the sick to exercise faith, even though it is very apparent that some incantations and exhortations used and some settings and individuals do not reflect the Spirit of God.

I believe that we must recognize that there are charlatans, imbued with unholy purposes, who use the true principle of the relationship of mind and body in devilish ways. While the devil cannot do good, men imbued with evil designs may sometimes mix the good and the evil. This led Brigham Young to say of the hypnotism he saw practiced in his day: “Mesmerism is an inverted truth; it originated in holy, good, and righteous principles, which have been inverted by the power of the devil. … Show me one principle that has originated by the power of the devil. You cannot do it. I call evil inverted good, or a correct principle made an evil use of.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:156–57)

We find examples of this evil use of true principles in Biblical and historical accounts. For examples, using demonic powers, the magicians of Egypt were able to duplicate many of the miracles Moses performed with the power of God. (See Ex. 7–8.) During the days of the early apostles, Simon the sorcerer so convincingly portrayed his satanic powers as divine that many people, “from the least to the greatest, [said], This man is the great power of God.” (Acts 8:10) In 1830, Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon, claimed to receive “revelations” for the Church from a certain stone he had obtained. Although these “revelations” contradicted those Joseph Smith had received from the Lord, his manner of receiving them deceived several members of the Church, including Oliver Cowdery. The Lord commanded Oliver to tell Brother Page “that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him.” (D&C 28:11) Eight years later, Hiram Page left the Church. Obviously in these cases, Satan gave men mighty power so similar to that manifested by true servants of God that many were deceived. It seems to me, therefore, that true principles can be used both for good and for evil.

Now, with this understanding of other kinds of healings—some good and some of Satan, let’s turn to priesthood healings. There are limitations to healings produced by faith alone. But when the faith of the sick person is accompanied by the healing administration of priesthood power, there is no limit to the possible results. Listen to the invitation of Christ to the Nephites:

“Have ye any that are sick among you? Bring them hither. Have ye any that are lame, or blind, or halt, or maimed, or leprous, or that are withered, or that are deaf, or that are afflicted in any manner? Bring them hither and I will heal them, for I have compassion upon you; my bowels are filled with mercy.” (3 Ne. 17:7)

In priesthood healings the faith of the afflicted is also a vital factor—but it is true faith in a true power: the priesthood. In such cases, faith acts somewhat as a catalyst in bringing about the desired physical reaction. Mark, in his Gospel writing, records that the Lord could perform few of his usual healings during his visit to the people of his native Nazareth because of the people’s unbelief. (See Mark 6:5.)

Thus, when the priesthood of God lays hands upon the faithful sick, a powerful healing element flows from the priesthood holder to the mind and body of the recipient. It is as real as the ultraviolet ray or the laser beam, but far more potent, when the right conditions prevail, in affecting the physical body. Brigham Young thus explained it:

“When I lay hands on the sick, I expect the healing power and influence of God to pass through me to the patient, and the disease to give way.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1977, p. 162)

Although this healing power which flows through proper priesthood administration is not understood by the world, it is known and attested to by the people of God. Thus, while recognizing the power of faith without priesthood administration, Latter-day Saints look for the far more potent healing power of the priesthood of God, which circumscribes and encompasses all other forms of healing, and when necessary, goes far beyond any of them in its power and healing influence.

Source: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/10/i-ha ... d?lang=eng

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

I think that it is very important that we don't ever judge anyone else's faith based on if they are healed or not. It is part of prosperity gospel to believe that one can overcome any sickness. We do not adhere prosperity gospel.

Some people have faith to be healed, some don't. Others have faith, yet they're not meant to be healed. Even Paul had torn in his flesh.

The prosperity gospel is alive and well. Check out any talk on tithing or obedience.

[JohnnyL]

So, can Satan heal? Any clear examples?

Is all healing because of the Atonement, or not?

Satan can do no good.

Hmm... I recall a whole bunch of people on this forum saying the exact opposite.

Of course, I recall a whole bunch of people saying the exact opposite of Bro. Berrett, too.

Perhaps someone would like to chime in as to why Bro. Berrett is wrong?

[righteousrepublic]

So, can Satan heal? Any clear examples?

Is all healing because of the Atonement, or not?

No. Jesus healed people way before he suffered for us. We can heal others when asked by the person that is sick. It is done in the name of Jesus Christ and by faith. The use of consecrated oil is most often necessary as well.

D&C 24
13 Require not miracles, except I shall command you, except casting out devils, healing the sick, and against poisonous serpents, and against deadly poisons;
14 And these things ye shall not do, except it be required of you by them who desire it, that the scriptures might be fulfilled; for ye shall do according to that which is written.

Administrations to the Sick

laid his hands upon a few sick, Mark 6:5.

anointed with oil many that were sick, Mark 6:13.

put his hand upon him, Mark 7:32 (8:23; 16:18; Luke 4:40; 13:13).

took him by the right hand, Acts 3:7.

putting his hands on him, Acts 9:17 (28:8).

the elders … pray … anointing him with oil, James 5:14.

he did heal them every one, 3 Ne. 17:9.

not do, except it be required of you by them who desire, D&C 24:14.

elders … lay their hands upon, D&C 42:44 (42:48).

Lay your hands upon the sick, D&C 66:9.

See also 1 Kgs. 17:21; 2 Kgs. 4:34; 5:14; Mosiah 27:23; Alma 15:8; 3 Ne. 17:7; 26:15.

[jadd]

So, can Satan heal? Any clear examples?

Is all healing because of the Atonement, or not?

No. Jesus healed people way before he suffered for us. We can heal others when asked by the person that is sick. It is done in the name of Jesus Christ and by faith. The use of consecrated oil is most often necessary as well.

D&C 24
13 Require not miracles, except I shall command you, except casting out devils, healing the sick, and against poisonous serpents, and against deadly poisons;
14 And these things ye shall not do, except it be required of you by them who desire it, that the scriptures might be fulfilled; for ye shall do according to that which is written.

Administrations to the Sick

laid his hands upon a few sick, Mark 6:5.

anointed with oil many that were sick, Mark 6:13.

put his hand upon him, Mark 7:32 (8:23; 16:18; Luke 4:40; 13:13).

took him by the right hand, Acts 3:7.

putting his hands on him, Acts 9:17 (28:8).

the elders … pray … anointing him with oil, James 5:14.

he did heal them every one, 3 Ne. 17:9.

not do, except it be required of you by them who desire, D&C 24:14.

elders … lay their hands upon, D&C 42:44 (42:48).

Lay your hands upon the sick, D&C 66:9.

See also 1 Kgs. 17:21; 2 Kgs. 4:34; 5:14; Mosiah 27:23; Alma 15:8; 3 Ne. 17:7; 26:15.

What if the atonement transcends time for us? I mean what if He suffered outside of time - thus it is the past, present, and the future when He suffered(s). I.e. the atonement may, in a very real sense, be the reason for all healing of a spiritual nature (before and after Christ suffered) the Spirits were still commanded by the Savior and His Apostles before he went to the Garden (Spiritual). For instance, what if Christ suffers for us in the very moment that we have sinned or asked forgiveness (in that what he did was outside of time). Thus perfectly maintaining a balance of justice and mercy. Anyways, just a few thoughts.

Now, Satan clearly has imitations and it appears that he can heal, so physical repairs are different - how, I'm not sure. I haven't really thought about it. All I know is that when one is healed by Christ's power and in His name, one is also forgiven of their sins (SOmewhere in the early church history there are quotes in regards to that). When one is healed by some other source, they very possibly might not be, but I do not know.

[righteousrepublic]

What if the atonement transcends time for us? I mean what if He suffered outside of time - thus it is the past, present, and the future when He suffered(s). I.e. the atonement may, in a very real sense, be the reason for all healing of a spiritual nature (before and after Christ suffered) the Spirits were still commanded by the Savior and His Apostles before he went to the Garden (Spiritual). For instance, what if Christ suffers for us in the very moment that we have sinned or asked forgiveness (in that what he did was outside of time). Thus perfectly maintaining a balance of justice and mercy. Anyways, just a few thoughts.

Now, Satan clearly has imitations and it appears that he can heal, so physical repairs are different - how, I'm not sure. I haven't really thought about it. All I know is that when one is healed by Christ's power and in His name, one is also forgiven of their sins (SOmewhere in the early church history there are quotes in regards to that). When one is healed by some other source, they very possibly might not be, but I do not know.

Interesting thoughts, however, I do not know enough to really hit the nail on the head when it comes to true accounts and actual explanations. I've never heard that people are forgiven of sins when administered to and healed.

Blessings of healing is done through the power of God, in the name of Jesus.

Some examples of this power are:

Priesthood, Power of

he gave them power against unclean spirits, Matt. 10:1 (Mark 3:15; Luke 10:19).

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth, Matt. 28:18.

By what power … have ye done this, Acts 4:7.

Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders, Acts 6:8.

Give me also this power, that … he may receive the Holy Ghost, Acts 8:19.

God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul, Acts 19:11.

in the ordinances … power of godliness is manifest, D&C 84:20.

until mine elders are endowed with power, D&C 105:11.

unto you, the Twelve … is the power of this priesthood given, D&C 112:30.

who … hold the power of priesthood, D&C 113:8.

rights of the priesthood … connected with the powers of heaven, D&C 121:36.
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only (except) upon the principles of righteousness.

this ordinance consists in the power of the priesthood, D&C 128:8.

Power

The ability to do something. To have power over someone or something is to have the ability to control or command that person or thing. In the scriptures, power is often connected with the power of God or the power of heaven. It is often closely related to priesthood authority, which is the permission or right to act for God.

[jadd]

What if the atonement transcends time for us? I mean what if He suffered outside of time - thus it is the past, present, and the future when He suffered(s). I.e. the atonement may, in a very real sense, be the reason for all healing of a spiritual nature (before and after Christ suffered) the Spirits were still commanded by the Savior and His Apostles before he went to the Garden (Spiritual). For instance, what if Christ suffers for us in the very moment that we have sinned or asked forgiveness (in that what he did was outside of time). Thus perfectly maintaining a balance of justice and mercy. Anyways, just a few thoughts.

Now, Satan clearly has imitations and it appears that he can heal, so physical repairs are different - how, I'm not sure. I haven't really thought about it. All I know is that when one is healed by Christ's power and in His name, one is also forgiven of their sins (SOmewhere in the early church history there are quotes in regards to that). When one is healed by some other source, they very possibly might not be, but I do not know.

Interesting thoughts, however, I do not know enough to really hit the nail on the head when it comes to true accounts and actual explanations. I've never heard that people are forgiven of sins when administered to and healed.

Blessings of healing is done through the power of God, in the name of Jesus.

Some examples of this power are:

Priesthood, Power of

he gave them power against unclean spirits, Matt. 10:1 (Mark 3:15; Luke 10:19).

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth, Matt. 28:18.

By what power … have ye done this, Acts 4:7.

Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders, Acts 6:8.

Give me also this power, that … he may receive the Holy Ghost, Acts 8:19.

God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul, Acts 19:11.

in the ordinances … power of godliness is manifest, D&C 84:20.

until mine elders are endowed with power, D&C 105:11.

unto you, the Twelve … is the power of this priesthood given, D&C 112:30.

who … hold the power of priesthood, D&C 113:8.

rights of the priesthood … connected with the powers of heaven, D&C 121:36.
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only (except) upon the principles of righteousness.

this ordinance consists in the power of the priesthood, D&C 128:8.

Power

The ability to do something. To have power over someone or something is to have the ability to control or command that person or thing. In the scriptures, power is often connected with the power of God or the power of heaven. It is often closely related to priesthood authority, which is the permission or right to act for God.

I remember now - he was quoting James.

“Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven” (James 5:14–15).

[JohnnyL]

righteousrepublic, are you forgetting a big part of Bro. Barrett's response?

"“Master we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

“And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” (Luke 9:49–50)

Clearly, it is good to be healed. And there are many ways to be healed in addition to the administration of the priesthood—by good health habits, herbs, medicines, and prayers of faith.

God has given us the Word of Wisdom as a health guide. He has also provided various herbs in the earth that have healing properties. We read in the book of Alma that “there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate.” (Alma 46:40)

For countless ages medicine men in all cultures have used many of nature’s remedies and have healed many people. And in our day, God has poured forth knowledge upon the earth which the medical profession has used to administer much relief to the sick and afflicted—thankfully going far beyond the limited herbal remedies available to earlier cultures.

God expects us to utilize all that he has provided to heal us of our afflictions. The question which has bothered man the most has had to do with healings in which none of nature’s known remedies or of man’s medical skill has been applied to the sick individual. These have usually been termed faith healings—healings which may have occurred either through the power of the mind over the body or by the administration of the power of God. While both of these methods are legitimate, they are often confused; healings caused by mind over body are frequently mistaken for priesthood healings.

The more we learn about the power of the mind over the body, the clearer it becomes that to some extent, and in ways still largely unknown to us, our mind can and does effect a powerful role in selected kinds of health improvement. Mostly, however, we are just beginning to glimpse these capabilities, rather than being able to implement them.

Countless healings have occurred through exercising the power of the mind over the physical body. Aboriginal doctors, for example, have employed sometimes devious methods to induce faith in the sick that they might be healed. Healings have often followed not because of the incantations of the doctor, but because of a natural law whereby the mind is able to affect the body.

The great preacher, George Fox, founder of the Society of Quakers, advocated faith healings with some success, though all too often the malady returned, only to be labeled by him as a punishment for disobedience to God. Other healings have occurred at shrines such as Mecca in Arabia, though only a very small proportion of those who go to be healed actually are. There have been some faith healings at revivalist meetings, but the permanence of some of the relief has been questioned. Further, Christian Scientists contend that pain does not exist but is only an error of the human faculty.

I believe that many who are healed by the power of the mind and the spirit over the body have not been led by men influenced by the devil but by good-intentioned individuals, and that the faith which has produced healings at shrines, for example, is not necessarily the work of the devil, but may have been simply the application of an unrecognized God-given principle of life. I also believe that when we classify all such healings as being of the devil, we do an unjustice to that group of well-meaning individuals who have induced the sick to exercise faith, even though it is very apparent that some incantations and exhortations used and some settings and individuals do not reflect the Spirit of God.

I believe that we must recognize that there are charlatans, imbued with unholy purposes, who use the true principle of the relationship of mind and body in devilish ways. While the devil cannot do good, men imbued with evil designs may sometimes mix the good and the evil. This led Brigham Young to say of the hypnotism he saw practiced in his day: “Mesmerism is an inverted truth; it originated in holy, good, and righteous principles, which have been inverted by the power of the devil. … Show me one principle that has originated by the power of the devil. You cannot do it. I call evil inverted good, or a correct principle made an evil use of.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:156–57)

We find examples of this evil use of true principles in Biblical and historical accounts. For examples, using demonic powers, the magicians of Egypt were able to duplicate many of the miracles Moses performed with the power of God. (See Ex. 7–8.) During the days of the early apostles, Simon the sorcerer so convincingly portrayed his satanic powers as divine that many people, “from the least to the greatest, [said], This man is the great power of God.” (Acts 8:10) In 1830, Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon, claimed to receive “revelations” for the Church from a certain stone he had obtained. Although these “revelations” contradicted those Joseph Smith had received from the Lord, his manner of receiving them deceived several members of the Church, including Oliver Cowdery. The Lord commanded Oliver to tell Brother Page “that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him.” (D&C 28:11) Eight years later, Hiram Page left the Church. Obviously in these cases, Satan gave men mighty power so similar to that manifested by true servants of God that many were deceived. It seems to me, therefore, that true principles can be used both for good and for evil.

Now, with this understanding of other kinds of healings—some good and some of Satan, let’s turn to priesthood healings. There are limitations to healings produced by faith alone. "

All kinds of healings, and none by the priesthood.

[JohnnyL]

Now, with this understanding of other kinds of healings—some good and some of Satan, let’s turn to priesthood healings.

Anyone?

[righteousrepublic]

Now, with this understanding of other kinds of healings—some good and some of Satan, let’s turn to priesthood healings.

Anyone?

Why do priesthood holders place their hands on the recipient and only say a prayer instead of invoking the power to heal and commanding the healing to take place? I seldom if ever witness a person being healed by command in the name of Jesus.

D&C 46:20
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.

Matt. 10:1
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Acts 4:30
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

D&C 84:68
68 In my name they shall heal the sick;

[righteousrepublic]

How much faith is required to heal oneself verses the faith required to be healed through Priesthood power in the name of Jesus?

D&C 46
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.

D&C 42:48 (48–51)
48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.
49 He who hath faith to see shall see.
50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.
51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.

Notice in verse 48 that a person may be healed UNLESS they are appointed unto death.

Here are examples of being appointed unto death and having extra years given.

2 Kgs. 20:1
1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

Isa. 38:5
5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

[Finrock]

How much faith is required to heal oneself verses the faith required to be healed through Priesthood power in the name of Jesus?

D&C 46
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.

D&C 42:48 (48–51)
48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.
49 He who hath faith to see shall see.
50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.
51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.

Notice in verse 48 that a person may be healed UNLESS they are appointed unto death.

Here are examples of being appointed unto death and having extra years given.

2 Kgs. 20:1
1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

Isa. 38:5
5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

What's the difference? Really.

-Finrock

[righteousrepublic]

How much faith is required to heal oneself verses the faith required to be healed through Priesthood power in the name of Jesus?

D&C 46
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.

D&C 42:48 (48–51)
48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.
49 He who hath faith to see shall see.
50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.
51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.

Notice in verse 48 that a person may be healed UNLESS they are appointed unto death.

Here are examples of being appointed unto death and having extra years given.

2 Kgs. 20:1
1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

Isa. 38:5
5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

What's the difference? Really.

-Finrock

What's the difference?
Number 1, is that one is putting all their trust and faith in themselves, the arm of flesh, to be healed.
Number 2, is that one puts all their trust and faith in Jesus, of whom, is the Master Physician. It is Christ that gives anyone the faith to heal anyway.

D&C 46
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.


This is what makes a huge difference. This explanation makes the issue more understandable, perhaps not acceptable. Nevertheless, if we study scripture we can learn to put things in focus more effectively, correct?

Having said this, if one wants to call upon God and ask him to give them the faith to heal themselves there may be no issue. At least God is somehow involved with the process, right?

[Finrock]

How much faith is required to heal oneself verses the faith required to be healed through Priesthood power in the name of Jesus?

D&C 46
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.

D&C 42:48 (48–51)
48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.
49 He who hath faith to see shall see.
50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.
51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.

Notice in verse 48 that a person may be healed UNLESS they are appointed unto death.

Here are examples of being appointed unto death and having extra years given.

2 Kgs. 20:1
1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

Isa. 38:5
5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

What's the difference? Really.

-Finrock

What's the difference?
Number 1, is that one is putting all their trust and faith in themselves, the arm of flesh, to be healed.
Number 2, is that one puts all their trust and faith in Jesus, of whom, is the Master Physician. It is Christ that gives anyone the faith to heal anyway.

D&C 46
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.


This is what makes a huge difference. This explanation makes the issue more understandable, perhaps not acceptable. Nevertheless, if we study scripture we can learn to put things in focus more effectively, correct?

Having said this, if one wants to call upon God and ask him to give them the faith to heal themselves there may be no issue. At least God is somehow involved with the process, right?

Are you saying that if we put our trust in ourselves we can heal ourselves?

-Finrock

[righteousrepublic]

Are you saying that if we put our trust in ourselves we can heal ourselves?

-Finrock

No! I'm suggesting that trusting in oneself is not putting trust in God. I've offered Prov 3:5,6 many times and it appears that people just want to ignore that counsel and go about doing whatever suits them.

Now instead of me pointing out what it says, let's do an experiment and ask someone else to tell us what it truly tells us. It's rather plain and simple, IMHO.

5 ¶ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

I could be wet behind the ears on this, but I think God should be involved in all our major choices and decisions according to these very verses.

[Finrock]

Are you saying that if we put our trust in ourselves we can heal ourselves?

-Finrock

No! I'm suggesting that trusting in oneself is not putting trust in God. I've offered Prov 3:5,6 many times and it appears that people just want to ignore that counsel and go about doing whatever suits them.

Now instead of me pointing out what it says, let's do an experiment and ask someone else to tell us what it truly tells us. It's rather plain and simple, IMHO.

5 ¶ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

I could be wet behind the ears on this, but I think God should be involved in all our major choices and decisions according to these very verses.

I don't know what people you are talking about, but, I am just asking questions for clarification.

-Finrock

[JohnnyL]

So what about this?

righteousrepublic, are you forgetting a big part of Bro. Barrett's response?

"“Master we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

“And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” (Luke 9:49–50)

Clearly, it is good to be healed. And there are many ways to be healed in addition to the administration of the priesthood—by good health habits, herbs, medicines, and prayers of faith.

God has given us the Word of Wisdom as a health guide. He has also provided various herbs in the earth that have healing properties. We read in the book of Alma that “there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate.” (Alma 46:40)

For countless ages medicine men in all cultures have used many of nature’s remedies and have healed many people. And in our day, God has poured forth knowledge upon the earth which the medical profession has used to administer much relief to the sick and afflicted—thankfully going far beyond the limited herbal remedies available to earlier cultures.

God expects us to utilize all that he has provided to heal us of our afflictions. The question which has bothered man the most has had to do with healings in which none of nature’s known remedies or of man’s medical skill has been applied to the sick individual. These have usually been termed faith healings—healings which may have occurred either through the power of the mind over the body or by the administration of the power of God. While both of these methods are legitimate, they are often confused; healings caused by mind over body are frequently mistaken for priesthood healings.

The more we learn about the power of the mind over the body, the clearer it becomes that to some extent, and in ways still largely unknown to us, our mind can and does effect a powerful role in selected kinds of health improvement. Mostly, however, we are just beginning to glimpse these capabilities, rather than being able to implement them.

Countless healings have occurred through exercising the power of the mind over the physical body. Aboriginal doctors, for example, have employed sometimes devious methods to induce faith in the sick that they might be healed. Healings have often followed not because of the incantations of the doctor, but because of a natural law whereby the mind is able to affect the body.

The great preacher, George Fox, founder of the Society of Quakers, advocated faith healings with some success, though all too often the malady returned, only to be labeled by him as a punishment for disobedience to God. Other healings have occurred at shrines such as Mecca in Arabia, though only a very small proportion of those who go to be healed actually are. There have been some faith healings at revivalist meetings, but the permanence of some of the relief has been questioned. Further, Christian Scientists contend that pain does not exist but is only an error of the human faculty.

I believe that many who are healed by the power of the mind and the spirit over the body have not been led by men influenced by the devil but by good-intentioned individuals, and that the faith which has produced healings at shrines, for example, is not necessarily the work of the devil, but may have been simply the application of an unrecognized God-given principle of life. I also believe that when we classify all such healings as being of the devil, we do an unjustice to that group of well-meaning individuals who have induced the sick to exercise faith, even though it is very apparent that some incantations and exhortations used and some settings and individuals do not reflect the Spirit of God.

I believe that we must recognize that there are charlatans, imbued with unholy purposes, who use the true principle of the relationship of mind and body in devilish ways. While the devil cannot do good, men imbued with evil designs may sometimes mix the good and the evil. This led Brigham Young to say of the hypnotism he saw practiced in his day: “Mesmerism is an inverted truth; it originated in holy, good, and righteous principles, which have been inverted by the power of the devil. … Show me one principle that has originated by the power of the devil. You cannot do it. I call evil inverted good, or a correct principle made an evil use of.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:156–57)

We find examples of this evil use of true principles in Biblical and historical accounts. For examples, using demonic powers, the magicians of Egypt were able to duplicate many of the miracles Moses performed with the power of God. (See Ex. 7–8.) During the days of the early apostles, Simon the sorcerer so convincingly portrayed his satanic powers as divine that many people, “from the least to the greatest, [said], This man is the great power of God.” (Acts 8:10) In 1830, Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon, claimed to receive “revelations” for the Church from a certain stone he had obtained. Although these “revelations” contradicted those Joseph Smith had received from the Lord, his manner of receiving them deceived several members of the Church, including Oliver Cowdery. The Lord commanded Oliver to tell Brother Page “that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him.” (D&C 28:11) Eight years later, Hiram Page left the Church. Obviously in these cases, Satan gave men mighty power so similar to that manifested by true servants of God that many were deceived. It seems to me, therefore, that true principles can be used both for good and for evil.

Now, with this understanding of other kinds of healings—some good and some of Satan, let’s turn to priesthood healings. There are limitations to healings produced by faith alone. "

All kinds of healings, and none by the priesthood.

[righteousrepublic]

Are you saying that if we put our trust in ourselves we can heal ourselves?

-Finrock

No! I'm suggesting that trusting in oneself is not putting trust in God. I've offered Prov 3:5,6 many times and it appears that people just want to ignore that counsel and go about doing whatever suits them.

Now instead of me pointing out what it says, let's do an experiment and ask someone else to tell us what it truly tells us. It's rather plain and simple, IMHO.

5 ¶ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

I could be wet behind the ears on this, but I think God should be involved in all our major choices and decisions according to these very verses.

I don't know what people you are talking about, but, I am just asking questions for clarification.

-Finrock

Did you not ask "what's the difference?" I believe I have answered that question amply. No names have to be attached to people." When the war in heaven occurred 1/3 of the spirits went with Lucifer...we do not know their names, but we say 1/3 of the people rebelled. Their names are not important. Likewise, we have a certain percentage of people that assume their wisdom is greater than God's. They lean on their own understanding instead of putting their trust in God and allowing him to direct their path.

[righteousrepublic]

So what about this?

righteousrepublic, are you forgetting a big part of Bro. Barrett's response?

"“Master we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

“And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” (Luke 9:49–50)

Clearly, it is good to be healed. And there are many ways to be healed in addition to the administration of the priesthood—by good health habits, herbs, medicines, and prayers of faith.

God has given us the Word of Wisdom as a health guide. He has also provided various herbs in the earth that have healing properties. We read in the book of Alma that “there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate.” (Alma 46:40)

For countless ages medicine men in all cultures have used many of nature’s remedies and have healed many people. And in our day, God has poured forth knowledge upon the earth which the medical profession has used to administer much relief to the sick and afflicted—thankfully going far beyond the limited herbal remedies available to earlier cultures.

God expects us to utilize all that he has provided to heal us of our afflictions. The question which has bothered man the most has had to do with healings in which none of nature’s known remedies or of man’s medical skill has been applied to the sick individual. These have usually been termed faith healings—healings which may have occurred either through the power of the mind over the body or by the administration of the power of God. While both of these methods are legitimate, they are often confused; healings caused by mind over body are frequently mistaken for priesthood healings.

The more we learn about the power of the mind over the body, the clearer it becomes that to some extent, and in ways still largely unknown to us, our mind can and does effect a powerful role in selected kinds of health improvement. Mostly, however, we are just beginning to glimpse these capabilities, rather than being able to implement them.

Countless healings have occurred through exercising the power of the mind over the physical body. Aboriginal doctors, for example, have employed sometimes devious methods to induce faith in the sick that they might be healed. Healings have often followed not because of the incantations of the doctor, but because of a natural law whereby the mind is able to affect the body.

The great preacher, George Fox, founder of the Society of Quakers, advocated faith healings with some success, though all too often the malady returned, only to be labeled by him as a punishment for disobedience to God. Other healings have occurred at shrines such as Mecca in Arabia, though only a very small proportion of those who go to be healed actually are. There have been some faith healings at revivalist meetings, but the permanence of some of the relief has been questioned. Further, Christian Scientists contend that pain does not exist but is only an error of the human faculty.

I believe that many who are healed by the power of the mind and the spirit over the body have not been led by men influenced by the devil but by good-intentioned individuals, and that the faith which has produced healings at shrines, for example, is not necessarily the work of the devil, but may have been simply the application of an unrecognized God-given principle of life. I also believe that when we classify all such healings as being of the devil, we do an unjustice to that group of well-meaning individuals who have induced the sick to exercise faith, even though it is very apparent that some incantations and exhortations used and some settings and individuals do not reflect the Spirit of God.

I believe that we must recognize that there are charlatans, imbued with unholy purposes, who use the true principle of the relationship of mind and body in devilish ways. While the devil cannot do good, men imbued with evil designs may sometimes mix the good and the evil. This led Brigham Young to say of the hypnotism he saw practiced in his day: “Mesmerism is an inverted truth; it originated in holy, good, and righteous principles, which have been inverted by the power of the devil. … Show me one principle that has originated by the power of the devil. You cannot do it. I call evil inverted good, or a correct principle made an evil use of.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:156–57)

We find examples of this evil use of true principles in Biblical and historical accounts. For examples, using demonic powers, the magicians of Egypt were able to duplicate many of the miracles Moses performed with the power of God. (See Ex. 7–8.) During the days of the early apostles, Simon the sorcerer so convincingly portrayed his satanic powers as divine that many people, “from the least to the greatest, [said], This man is the great power of God.” (Acts 8:10) In 1830, Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon, claimed to receive “revelations” for the Church from a certain stone he had obtained. Although these “revelations” contradicted those Joseph Smith had received from the Lord, his manner of receiving them deceived several members of the Church, including Oliver Cowdery. The Lord commanded Oliver to tell Brother Page “that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him.” (D&C 28:11) Eight years later, Hiram Page left the Church. Obviously in these cases, Satan gave men mighty power so similar to that manifested by true servants of God that many were deceived. It seems to me, therefore, that true principles can be used both for good and for evil.

Now, with this understanding of other kinds of healings—some good and some of Satan, let’s turn to priesthood healings. There are limitations to healings produced by faith alone. "

All kinds of healings, and none by the priesthood.

In an above post, I said that Satan can do no good. Bro Barrett agrees, in red above. I think this is all that needs to be said.

[Finrock]

Are you saying that if we put our trust in ourselves we can heal ourselves?

-Finrock

No! I'm suggesting that trusting in oneself is not putting trust in God. I've offered Prov 3:5,6 many times and it appears that people just want to ignore that counsel and go about doing whatever suits them.

Now instead of me pointing out what it says, let's do an experiment and ask someone else to tell us what it truly tells us. It's rather plain and simple, IMHO.

5 ¶ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

I could be wet behind the ears on this, but I think God should be involved in all our major choices and decisions according to these very verses.

I don't know what people you are talking about, but, I am just asking questions for clarification.

-Finrock

Did you not ask "what's the difference?" I believe I have answered that question amply. No names have to be attached to people." When the war in heaven occurred 1/3 of the spirits went with Lucifer...we do not know their names, but we say 1/3 of the people rebelled. Their names are not important. Likewise, we have a certain percentage of people that assume their wisdom is greater than God's. They lean on their own understanding instead of putting their trust in God and allowing him to direct their path.

Yeah, I did. I'm not saying you didn't answer the question. But, while responding to me and answering my questions you said that "it appears that people just want to ignore [counsel provided in Proverbs] and go about doing whatever suits them."

I don't know who these people are that are ignoring this counsel, but it isn't me. I'm just asking questions for clarification so I'm not quite sure why you are saying anything about people ignoring you while responding to my post. I just don't want to respond and comment until I know what you are saying. Does that make sense?

-Finrock

[righteousrepublic]

No! I'm suggesting that trusting in oneself is not putting trust in God. I've offered Prov 3:5,6 many times and it appears that people just want to ignore that counsel and go about doing whatever suits them.

Now instead of me pointing out what it says, let's do an experiment and ask someone else to tell us what it truly tells us. It's rather plain and simple, IMHO.

5 ¶ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

I could be wet behind the ears on this, but I think God should be involved in all our major choices and decisions according to these very verses.

I don't know what people you are talking about, but, I am just asking questions for clarification.

-Finrock

Did you not ask "what's the difference?" I believe I have answered that question amply. No names have to be attached to people." When the war in heaven occurred 1/3 of the spirits went with Lucifer...we do not know their names, but we say 1/3 of the people rebelled. Their names are not important. Likewise, we have a certain percentage of people that assume their wisdom is greater than God's. They lean on their own understanding instead of putting their trust in God and allowing him to direct their path.

Yeah, I did. I'm not saying you didn't answer the question. But, while responding to me and answering my questions you said that "it appears that people just want to ignore [counsel provided in Proverbs] and go about doing whatever suits them."

I don't know who these people are that are ignoring this counsel, but it isn't me. I'm just asking questions for clarification so I'm not quite sure why you are saying anything about people ignoring you while responding to my post. I just don't want to respond and comment until I know what you are saying. Does that make sense?

-Finrock

What can I say to clarify what I've already clarified in my last few posts? Please point out any ambiguous clarifications so they may be further clarified and less ambiguous.

[Finrock]

I don't know what people you are talking about, but, I am just asking questions for clarification.

-Finrock

Did you not ask "what's the difference?" I believe I have answered that question amply. No names have to be attached to people." When the war in heaven occurred 1/3 of the spirits went with Lucifer...we do not know their names, but we say 1/3 of the people rebelled. Their names are not important. Likewise, we have a certain percentage of people that assume their wisdom is greater than God's. They lean on their own understanding instead of putting their trust in God and allowing him to direct their path.

Yeah, I did. I'm not saying you didn't answer the question. But, while responding to me and answering my questions you said that "it appears that people just want to ignore [counsel provided in Proverbs] and go about doing whatever suits them."

I don't know who these people are that are ignoring this counsel, but it isn't me. I'm just asking questions for clarification so I'm not quite sure why you are saying anything about people ignoring you while responding to my post. I just don't want to respond and comment until I know what you are saying. Does that make sense?

-Finrock

What can I say to clarify what I've already clarified in my last few posts? Please point out any ambiguous clarifications so they may be further clarified and less ambiguous.

You've clarified my question already. My posts now are just explanations and clarifications about what I was saying and doing.

-Finrock