Deep Doctrine

[Dusty52]

I have been thinking about the content of my latest posts, for some they may think we don't need to know about that!, That's not essential to my salvation!, but I am interested, I realise that some things we will never know until we get to the other side, but what are those things? If we don't discuss them how will we know?
I've realised that their are some very clever people in this forum who know a lot more than I do, I appreciate your time and effort in answering questions, I do not mean to offend or upset anyone
I am just a seeker of truth

[BeNotDeceived]

Proof is the antithesis of Faith, and Faith is comprised of Trust. Besides stuff being beyond our current capabilities to comprehend, God wants our trust without needing to know all the details.

[Durzan]

I have been thinking about the content of my latest posts, for some they may think we don't need to know about that!, That's not essential to my salvation!, but I am interested, I realise that some things we will never know until we get to the other side, but what are those things? If we don't discuss them how will we know?
I've realised that their are some very clever people in this forum who know a lot more than I do, I appreciate your time and effort in answering questions, I do not mean to offend or upset anyone
I am just a seeker of truth

The Mysteries of the kingdom of God, and Deep Doctrines, is actually a vast array of subjects. In its broadest sense, Mysteries applies to anything not yet revealed to the Church at large or to the members. Deep doctrine on the other hand are things we generally believe are true, but which we considered to not be essential pieces of knowledge. Deep doctrine may or may not be adequately supported by scripture, or may be and for the most part that is correct, although some pieces may prove very helpful in this life to some. Deep Doctrine is often held to be true, but is typically not deemed necessary for our salvation and swept under the rug. Some people also fit certain amounts of personal revelation and/or speculation under here/

Generally speaking, most of the mysteries are the mostly harmless/minor stuff along the lines we often speculate about, like "why God did things this way or that way." This sort of deep doctrine is more speculation on stuff that hasn't been revealed.

Then there's the deep doctrine that is sort of unofficial doctrine through implications and subtle hints by leaders and the scriptures, stuff that we may believe but can't actually claim it as official because for some reason God remained silent on the matter and hasn't really given any solid doctrine. things like the "existence of Heavenly Mother". We generally believe that she exists, but don't broadcast it to the world so that people don't make fun of Her. Also, the scriptures don't point out her existence, we had to infer it. Another example would be "as man now is, God once was; As god now is, man may yet become" Stuff like this is what most would consider deep doctrine.

Then there is deep revelations and speculations which delve heavily into stuff that build off of deep doctrine. This may or may not be true.

Then there is the abyssal deep doctrine. This is what I am usually talking about when I talk about deep doctrine. This is the stuff that you will not find at church at all and which can be dangerous to pursue. It's de facto forbidden lore, not because its evil or deceptive, but because it can be mildly disturbing or melancholy to downright HORRIFYING. If the members of the First Presidency knew about any of this stuff (which they very well might), it wouldn't be spoken about in public or endorsed as official doctrine, nor even push as unofficial doctrine. They'd lock it up and throw away the key, because if it got out, and people started believing it, it could prove disastrous. Not because its necessarily false, but because sometimes the Truth is too great a burden to bear, can cause us to lose morale and despair, and so forth. This stuff is like a uranium mine, very useful if you have the proper protection, but also dangerous. Why? Cause at best it will flip your understanding of the gospel upside down and inside out, and do the same to your world, and at worst you could literally break your mind. This is the stuff that a mortal mind would have a hard time comprehending, stuff that would make you wish you had never read it in the first place, the kind of stuff that makes you wish you saw Cthulhu's face. Okay, I may be exaggerating just a bit, but it really can be that dangerous. I found out about just one piece of information that I'd consider Abyssal doctrine nearly broke my mind from the sheer implications it had on the gospel. The good news is that this information is a) stuff that Heavenly Father usually won't share unless its absolutely necessary (why did it have to be necessary for me...), b) stuff that isn't too likely to be needed in this life.

If there was a mormon version of the Awful Truth trope, it would be the stuff you could classify as abyssal doctrine. The sad part is, that there are some really cool and inspirational stories that are tied to these pieces of Abyssal doctrine... and also some downright terrifying and heart wrenching stories that are tied to it as well. But you got to get past the shock of the key aspects of certain abyssal doctrine before you can do that. The problem is that you get hit with one statement and your mind reacts to it, and then you realize that said statement means horrifying realization X, which leads to horrifying realization Y and then Z, and so forth. You get a cascade of these realizations that are each difficult to swallow on their own, and they just keep bloody coming. So by the time the Spirit is done telling you these things, you are so numb and you are about to weep.

[davedan]

the mysteries of godliness have more to do with the human heart than “what is Kolob” or “how to change lead to gold” or “water to wine”.

How to forgive when offended or even seriously harmed.
How to get help others feel the spirit.
How to get Saints to show respect for sacrament by showing up on time (be less casual).
How to be intune with spirit.
How to minister.
How to feel more converted and devoted and be a more enthusastic believer.
How to keep our promises under any circumstance.

Miraculous healings are only temporary. The healed person will eventually die again. The most miraculous miracles involve the changing of the human heart to God because it lasts forever.

[inho]

the mysteries of godliness have more to do with the human heart than “what is Kolob” or “how to change lead to gold” or “water to wine”.

I think it is interesting to look at some examples of how Paul used the word 'mystery':

Col. 1

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col. 4

3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

1 Tim. 3

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Eph. 3
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

It seems that to Paul the greatest mystery is the atonement of Christ. When we draw power from the atonement, it has to do with a mighty change of heart (i.e., with human heart as you said), not with knowledge about obscure things.

[Jonesy]

Just think about it this way:

12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith.

I don’t necessarily think there’s anything wrong with being curious and wanting to know and understand greater things. But in our overzealous desires, we seek those things first while bypassing understanding the fundamentals. If we truly understand the fundamentals first, then we won’t hunger and thirst after yet unimportant things and “receive not, because [w]e ask amiss”. If most of us truly understood faith, maybe we would be very content about being fed line by line through faith.

As in all things, “seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness”.

[Jonesy]

I will also add that seeking greater things while not having a greater understanding first of the fundamentals could potentially lead to deception. I learned the hard way. But I think the fundamentals are just as interesting now anyways..

[Thinker]

I really love this forum - and at times, other forums! It’s a medium by which we can all honestly discuss deep issues.

Before I even knew about forums, I was chatting with someone, saying how I wish that I could somehow get people from different parts of the world together to discuss things - and we could all learn from each’s unique perspective. I received my patriarchal blessing before internet was common. When a friend read “bare your testimony often - you will be an influence to the world in helping others understand gospel truths” she said - “you’re going to be famous!” With the world-wide-web, I have learned from and shared truths with, people from all over the world!

[The Airbender]

Man cannot be saved in ignorance. A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge. Those who say we don't need to worry about it, that it doesn't matter, are proclaiming that they have no real interest in being saved.

[Thinker]

I have been thinking about the content of my latest posts, for some they may think we don't need to know about that!, That's not essential to my salvation!, but I am interested, I realise that some things we will never know until we get to the other side, but what are those things? If we don't discuss them how will we know?
I've realised that their are some very clever people in this forum who know a lot more than I do, I appreciate your time and effort in answering questions, I do not mean to offend or upset anyone
I am just a seeker of truth

Dusty, I like that you’re thinking and questioning - that’s how we learn and grow. And we have precious, essential freedom of speech in part, so that we can help each other. If I am thinking something that is incorrect - and I am not allowed to discuss it, then those thoughts continue getting more incorrect. But when I am free to discuss it with others - they can share relevant things I hadn’t thought of, and then I can share ideas - and all learn (ideally).

Jordan Peterson showed by example that calm discussion is much better than identity politics prejudice without discussion - which tends to lead to violence. Protestors harassed him because he expressed his opinion that a new Canadian law against free speech was wrong and dangerous - basically the law requires everyone to call transgender people by their preferred pronoun (he, she, zer etc). Peterson said this is against free speech and that he would not obey. Besides getting harassed, he was threatened with being fired and possible imprisonment.
https://youtu.be/rSDQtcXxpIw
(The noisy mob is annoying & it’s difficult to hear Peterson - but read his comments.)

[ajax]

There is no deeper doctrine than Christ, his teachings and the atonement. The rest is relatively shallow.

[BeNotDeceived]

Learning is line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.

Best to begin as simple as possible; my favorite example is numbers.

First we learn counting numbers (1, 2, 3 ... )

Then whole numbers which includes 0 and negative numbers. May seem trivial now, but 0 as a placeholder was a huge leap forward over what could be done with Roman Numerals. Actually my big brother mischievously told me about negative numbers, whereas my young classmates were quite insistent that you can’t take 5 away from 3. PI too was revolutionary.

[BeNotDeceived]

Reflecting on this thread brought new meaning to “greater works”.

We are destined to do greater works than Christ. Temple work, especially ordinances for the dead is one way.

He being a carpenter in the era of Roman Numerals would greatly limit his mortal understanding of the mathematics commonly involved in architecture. More acutely engineering, but PI and the Pythagorean Theorem, except in rare cases requires the use of irrational numbers.

Imaginary numbers and domain shifting aid understanding of electromagnetic propagation, which led to E=MC2 and quantum mechanics, where things really get weird. All this taken together is what makes many of our modern gadgets possible.

[EdGoble]

I have been thinking about the content of my latest posts, for some they may think we don't need to know about that!, That's not essential to my salvation!, but I am interested, I realise that some things we will never know until we get to the other side, but what are those things? If we don't discuss them how will we know?
I've realised that their are some very clever people in this forum who know a lot more than I do, I appreciate your time and effort in answering questions, I do not mean to offend or upset anyone
I am just a seeker of truth

There's nothing bad about wanting to know deep doctrine.
However, in my own delvings I have come to understand a few principles personally.

1) Keys of the Priesthood, Keys of the Priesthood and keys of the priesthood. No matter what, submit to the keys.
2) If someone tells you to ignore this refer to rule number one, and tell them to buzz off.
3) Research is better than speculation, and sometimes leads to powerful impressions and personal revelations.
4) Institutional revelation is very important for running the institution. Never get in the way of it. Never think you know more or better about how to run the institution. Let those who are called run it as they see fit even if you disagree personally, and keep a good attitude about it. Keep the commandments the way you are instructed at this time, regardless of how people used to be instructed. This enables you to have the spirit with you because of your submission and obedience, regardless of your personal beliefs.
5) Don't let your personal beliefs run so wild that you speculate about things that are not well researched to the point that you believe that you know things better than experts in certain fields. Always listen to the best scholarship of a field and take it very seriously in your ponderings, even if your ultimate personal revelations on subjects diverge from where scholarship has gone.
6) Don't buy everything in the Journal of Discourses or other sources. Often, people back in the day did not have a good background in areas that science and other research have a much better handle on the facts. Be skeptical of early Mormon fringe doctrines, although some may turn out to be true. Just because Joseph Smith or Brigham Young preached something doesn't make it true, but it makes it something to be taken very seriously in your personal pondering, just as in number 5.
7) If you start thinking that you are going to start a study group, or seek a following of some kind, you have gone off the mark, and you may end up going into the realm of priest-craft if you are not careful. It's nice to have friends to talk to about things you are interested in, but keep these things in check, and beware of personal pride, and thinking that you know more than other people. You always have something to learn from everyone.
8) Be skeptical of apostate claims, even though some things that come from them can sometimes be true, but more often than not, things from a polluted stream have logic problems and whatever else wrong with them, because people that don't have the Holy Ghost with them as strongly as they used to are wading in dirty water, and getting their information from polluted streams. Just because there are little glimmers of truth coming from these sources sometimes doesn't mean that the messages from them on the whole are worth all that much.
9) Keep most of your pondering to yourself especially at Church and around people in your home ward. Talking about weird and arcane stuff around people in your ward and especially around local leaders who can get the wrong idea is a recipe for misunderstanding and setting yourself up to be disciplined only because of misunderstanding.
10) If you ever get disciplined by local leaders that are overbearing and on a witch hunt, submit quickly to their demands and do not fight it. If they say jump, you say how high as you begin to jump. Never put yourself at enmity to the keys of the priesthood, not even at a local level.

[Jesef]

How did you come to know that the keys of the priesthood were the most important thing?

[Rand]

I think mysteries has a more specific connotation than that expressed in above comments.

DC 84:19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

DC 107:18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

The keys are a part of the spiritual blessings of the church. They are found in the Temple ordinances. And they are only found there through revelation.

It seems apparent that the mysteries are to be revealed through priesthood keys.

Seeking things that are mysterious or not known, is not the same thing as seeking to have the mysteries of the kingdom of God revealed to you. Mysteries are far more than information about the Kingdom, it is the very capacity, power and ultimately permission to form, regulate and govern such a kingdom.

[Kingdom of ZION]

The Mysteries of Godliness is the knowledge of how to become a G_d. It is not a unknown knowledge, only a mystery to those who have not been initiate into that knowledge because of a lack of faith and due diligence in praying and studying.

[EdGoble]

How did you come to know that the keys of the priesthood were the most important thing?

Words of the prophets that have put emphasis on it, A father who taught me well in Family Home Evening and in personal conversations with him over time, and personal revelation. It is the foundation stone of the principle of submission, in my view. It has always kept me out of trouble, and this advice has ended up keeping a number of other people out of trouble who have listened to it and found it useful.

[gardener4life]

We can get used to the idea of letting the Spirit touch our lives and recognizing when its the spirits influence and when it's not and trying to do this bit by bit everyday. This is what we can do the most in this life to be ready for after this. The Spirit of God being with us is the greatest tool we can have in this life. But people aren't seeing it for what it is.

It's a tool that can save your life, your families lives, and help get you ready for salvation.

It does help to talk about some doctrinal principles,...basically the basics. You can find these very simply put in the Gospel Principles book. I think most the things we need to know in this life are in the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Book of Mormon. I believe the Doctrine and Covenants contains answers to most of the questions we need to know in this life to prepare for the next, and that's why it was set up as a separate book of scripture. Each section is an answer to a gospel question that came up by early Saints.

We also need to have our own confirmation through the spirit that we're living right with the Lord daily and acceptable to him. We can also ask for guidance and confirmation about church leaders' decisions and that is part of the principle reasoning behind praying to know the church is true. When we are told we can pray to know that the church is true, it means we can also pray to know that the leaders decisions are right, if we do it in a humble way kneeling before the Lord.

***

On a side note, I'm kind of wondering if the doctrinal discussions here sometimes do more harm than good. Sometimes people think other people are attacking them when its a difference of opinion. And there's always someone causing a ruckus.

I'm not sure if this is doing any good.

And sometimes I'll try to put up a post to help someone and they'll dismiss something wonderful that I or others took time on, with the dismissal just because they didn't have some scientific book of Proof on it.

[righteousrepublic]

I will also add that seeking greater things while not having a greater understanding first of the fundamentals could potentially lead to deception. I learned the hard way. But I think the fundamentals are just as interesting now anyways..

If we learn mysteries of God and do not live up to what we know, we then receive a greater condemnation. It is best to learn fundamentals and go from there until we know all things, through righteous living and living up to covenants made.

Doctrine and Covenants 82:3
3 For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.

Be careful of what is asked of God because it carries with it a great responsibility.

[righteousrepublic]

Another thing, once we learn of something God untrusts us with, we should not go about blabbing it to others unless God says to. All people are not ready for all mysteries. Mum is the word!

Alma 12:9
9 ...It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

I suspect that this is why church leadership don't tell mysteries over the pulpit, too many people aren't living their life in such a way that they are ready to learn deeper things.

[TrueIntent]

Another thing, once we learn of something God untrusts us with, we should not go about blabbing it to others unless God says to. All people are not ready for all mysteries. Mum is the word!

Alma 12:9
9 ...It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

I suspect that this is why church leadership don't tell mysteries over the pulpit, too many people aren't living their life in such a way that they are ready to learn deeper things.

so i want to challenge this understanding a little bit. All the mysteries are contained in scripture, and in the parables Christ taught his disciples...so anyone who can access the internet can read the scriptures. Also, the blind (those who dont have the spirit), can't understand them anyway because they walk in hypocrisy (pharisees can discern weather but not the signs of the time). The scriptures are plain, but not plain to everyone. At the end of times, the "apocalypse" means unveiling of knowledge. Everything gets revealed. I believe we are in that stage now. Nothing is hidden....anyone who can access a library or starbucks has access to the internet. Everyone has a phone, even those living in the most impoverished conditions i witnessed overseas.

Understanding the mysteries can only be explained by someone who understands them....and Jesus, taught Judas openly, knowing he would betray Him. So i don't believe this scripture means what most people think it means. We are supposed to impart, "according to heed and diligence"....whether its the disciples/true followers, or Judas/those who betray christ, who is receiving it. There is a true priesthood and false priesthood. Both are being administered right now as we speak. it's always been the pattern. Cain offers sacrifices, but so does Abel.

How is the church leadership to know who should receive the mysteries if they haven't even had a conversation with 99 percent of the church? They hold the keys....how do the little people get access to them if they have never spoken to the little people? Through a bishop? and what if he doesn't have the keys?

[Dusty52]

The Mysteries of Godliness is the knowledge of how to become a G_d. It is not a unknown knowledge, only a mystery to those who have not been initiate into that knowledge because of a lack of faith and due diligence in praying and studying.

I like and agree with your statement about due diligence in praying and studying and seeking out truths, I know we need to do this for ourselves because no one can be saved on borrowed light, this forum can play an important part in that process, but it can't be the only thing we do!

[righteousrepublic]

Another thing, once we learn of something God untrusts us with, we should not go about blabbing it to others unless God says to. All people are not ready for all mysteries. Mum is the word!

Alma 12:9
9 ...It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

I suspect that this is why church leadership don't tell mysteries over the pulpit, too many people aren't living their life in such a way that they are ready to learn deeper things.

so i want to challenge this understanding a little bit. All the mysteries are contained in scripture, and in the parables Christ taught his disciples...so anyone who can access the internet can read the scriptures. Also, the blind (those who dont have the spirit), can't understand them anyway because they walk in hypocrisy (pharisees can discern weather but not the signs of the time). The scriptures are plain, but not plain to everyone. At the end of times, the "apocalypse" means unveiling of knowledge. Everything gets revealed. I believe we are in that stage now. Nothing is hidden....anyone who can access a library or starbucks has access to the internet. Everyone has a phone, even those living in the most impoverished conditions i witnessed overseas.

Understanding the mysteries can only be explained by someone who understands them....and Jesus, taught Judas openly, knowing he would betray Him. So i don't believe this scripture means what most people think it means. We are supposed to impart, "according to heed and diligence"....whether its the disciples/true followers, or Judas/those who betray christ, who is receiving it. There is a true priesthood and false priesthood. Both are being administered right now as we speak. it's always been the pattern. Cain offers sacrifices, but so does Abel.

How is the church leadership to know who should receive the mysteries if they haven't even had a conversation with 99 percent of the church? They hold the keys....how do the little people get access to them if they have never spoken to the little people? Through a bishop? and what if he doesn't have the keys?

So. are we to assume that all of God's ways, thoughts and methods are in scripture? We know that God knows all things, much of which we could not understand. Why?

Isaiah 55
8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So there are many mysteries he could reveal that are not in scripture, right? And Alma 12:9 would be extremely applicable.

We also know that we do not possess all of God's word, we have yet to receive more scripture some day. Perhaps when the Ten Tribes come forth, IMO.

[wargames83]

Then there is deep revelations and speculations which delve heavily into stuff that build off of deep doctrine. This may or may not be true.

Then there is the abyssal deep doctrine. This is what I am usually talking about when I talk about deep doctrine. This is the stuff that you will not find at church at all and which can be dangerous to pursue. It's de facto forbidden lore, not because its evil or deceptive, but because it can be mildly disturbing or melancholy to downright HORRIFYING. If the members of the First Presidency knew about any of this stuff (which they very well might), it wouldn't be spoken about in public or endorsed as official doctrine, nor even push as unofficial doctrine. They'd lock it up and throw away the key, because if it got out, and people started believing it, it could prove disastrous. Not because its necessarily false, but because sometimes the Truth is too great a burden to bear, can cause us to lose morale and despair, and so forth. This stuff is like a uranium mine, very useful if you have the proper protection, but also dangerous. Why? Cause at best it will flip your understanding of the gospel upside down and inside out, and do the same to your world, and at worst you could literally break your mind. This is the stuff that a mortal mind would have a hard time comprehending, stuff that would make you wish you had never read it in the first place, the kind of stuff that makes you wish you saw Cthulhu's face. Okay, I may be exaggerating just a bit, but it really can be that dangerous. I found out about just one piece of information that I'd consider Abyssal doctrine nearly broke my mind from the sheer implications it had on the gospel. The good news is that this information is a) stuff that Heavenly Father usually won't share unless its absolutely necessary (why did it have to be necessary for me...), b) stuff that isn't too likely to be needed in this life.

Don't tease like that man! Send me a private message of what you are talking about if you think it is too much for the public.