LDS Freedom Forum

As I read 3 Nephi 16 this morning I was struck by what will happen if the Gentiles accept or reject the gospel. If the Gentiles reject the gospel and do lots of bad things: "behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fullness of my gospel from among them." On the other hand, "if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel."

This left me wondering: what does it mean for the Gentiles to repent and return to God? What's the critical mass of Gentiles that have to repent to avoid the prophesied calamities? What of the Gentiles that do repent? Will we be taken from the rest of the Gentiles when the gospel is taken from among them?

What do you all think?

Those who are of the Gentiles who do repent will be numbered among the remnant of Jacob (Israel) and become part of the House of Israel. If they do not accept Jesus and his gospel, they may be swept off.

3 Nephi 21:11-25
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

Hey Brian

Good post. Thanks for doing it.

Well I don't have the exact verses in front of me. But it does look like the wording of what will happen to the Gentiles is similar to what it says about the Lamanites. So that's hopeful because the Lamanites survived the end of Nephite Babylon and it's fall.

But it's going to hurt though.

If people will use the Spirit it will tell them the same thing it's been pinging for a long time for a LOT of people both inside and outside the church who follow Jesus. And that's that very soon Babylon will fall. Babylon is the house built on the sand that gets washed away.

brianj wrote: ↑July 8th, 2018, 5:59 pm As I read 3 Nephi 16 this morning I was struck by what will happen if the Gentiles accept or reject the gospel. If the Gentiles reject the gospel and do lots of bad things: "behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fullness of my gospel from among them." On the other hand, "if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel."

This left me wondering: what does it mean for the Gentiles to repent and return to God? What's the critical mass of Gentiles that have to repent to avoid the prophesied calamities? What of the Gentiles that do repent? Will we be taken from the rest of the Gentiles when the gospel is taken from among them?

What do you all think?

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btw - It's not "IF" it's "WHEN"
Jesus - who knows everything, also knew that we WOULDN"T repent.
This is directed to the church.
HOW CAN YOU " SIN AGAINST MY GOSPEL" unless you are a member.

NOT IF but "W H E N "

"At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations…" (3 Nephi 16:10)

quote

"Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. For example in Chapter 2 herein, we noted the Lord’s prophecy that only one half of that small group he calls “virgins” will avoid being deceived and destroyed. Let us consider other scriptures which discuss this problem.

PROPHECIES REGARDING APOSTASY IN THESE LATTER DAYS

The Book of Mormon contains many predictions of a falling away among the “Gentiles” in the latter days. While the non-Jewish, non-Lamanite members of Christ’s Church may not call themselves Gentiles, the Book of Mormon prophets did. This is clearly shown by the title page of the Nephite scripture which states in the following passage that this book will come forth “by way of the Gentile:”

Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—… (See also D&C 20:9)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them, the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

Some of the predictions clearly refer to members of Christ’s Church. Consider, for example, the following statement which is found among Nephi’s comments regarding latter-day conditions:

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

Even one who considers himself a “humble follower of Christ” is here warned that he will err “in many instances” because he is “taught by the precepts of men.”

Christ levelled His own charge that iniquity would prevail among Gentile members of His Church in the last days in these words:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations… (3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles
will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent, He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)"



There are two other instances of record wherein the Lord told the Nephites that unless the Gentiles repented, they would be trodden down and torn in pieces. (3 Nephi 20:16, 21:12-14) Mormon, who had witnessed the Lamanites exterminate his own people, used almost the same words as did Christ in the quotations referred to above, in predicting the destruction of the unrepentant Gentiles by a remnant of the house of Jacob:

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver. (Mormon 5:22, 24)

Then we have the following words of Moroni which state that the Gentiles would become so wicked that unless they repented they would be destroyed:

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. (Ether 2:11)

It should be emphasized that the above quoted statements are not merely warnings against iniquity but they are prophecies also.
In the clearest of language, they predict that the Gentiles will become so wicked that unless repentance occurs we will be destroyed. Or, as the last scripture quoted states it, our iniquities will become so great that if we “continue” in them, we will be swept off as were our predecessors.

brianj wrote: ↑July 8th, 2018, 5:59 pm As I read 3 Nephi 16 this morning I was struck by what will happen if the Gentiles accept or reject the gospel. If the Gentiles reject the gospel and do lots of bad things: "behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fullness of my gospel from among them." On the other hand, "if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel."

This left me wondering: what does it mean for the Gentiles to repent and return to God? What's the critical mass of Gentiles that have to repent to avoid the prophesied calamities? What of the Gentiles that do repent? Will we be taken from the rest of the Gentiles when the gospel is taken from among them?

What do you all think?

My thoughts: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22587

We had our chance.
The Times of The Gentiles is coming to an end.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel
"The first will be last, and last first"

"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."

3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.


Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off:
but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them,
and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

The Book of Mormon refers to three groups of Gentiles:
Believing - these are the people that bring the gospel to others. The church.
Unbelieving - those who reject the gospel, or refuse to live it.
Nations of the Gentiles.

The following verses are addressed to the "unbelieving of the Gentiles", not the LDS church, although there may be many unbelieving among them.
Verse 10 seems like a very accurate description of the USA.

8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;

9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them—

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
(3 Ne. 16:8–10)

The Gentiles who do repent and return to God will be baptized and become members of the LDS church and help build Zion.
Those who refuse to repent wont survive what is to come.

I think only God knows what the "critical mass" is, but this might be a good guide:

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.
(Mosiah 29:27)