The Gospel according to Denver Snuffer

[AGStacker]

Who is Denver Snuffer? I've never heard about him until I joined this board. Most Mormons don't even know who this guy is.

Someone who claims to know Jesus personally and that he has been asked to deliver a series of messages and has been doing so for some time.

I personally think Denver is authentic. There were more discussions about Denver's message on this site when Brian believed Denver but then changed his mind. There was a Heavenly Gift forum with great discussions that was eliminated. Denver has a series of books that can be purchased or a number of lectures and blog posts that can be found on his website which is his name .com.

[mirkwood]

Denver apostasized from the LDS church and offers nothing of value to it's members.

To the disaffected, apostates and non-members their mileage will vary.

[Jesef]

It’s been a while since I’ve visited Snuffer’s website.

[about Joseph Smith withdrawing of the commandment to keep the law of consecration:]

Joseph died before the Lord gave any command to resume it. Therefore the earlier commandment, still in the T&C, as well as the D&C, is not to be kept. Since it was the will of the Lord that consecration end, it will require a new command from the Lord to resume the attempt.

—website of Denver Snuffer

This says a lot to me. Does this mean Snuffer acknowledges he lacks any authority to receive a commandment to continue it again?

This whole thing is painful. Snuffer criticized the LDS church for not having any prophets, yet he doesn’t seem to be one himself. Is he still waiting for this end times servant as well? If so, what’s the point of his movement? They don’t claim to be a church, but a “remnant”...a remnant that did not remain with the church to be put back in order by this end time servant.

He's actually produced several revelations and a translation (more of a revelatory commentary, if you ask me) of the book of John which is supposed to be a fulfillment of D&C 7. Denver & company are still waiting for "commandments" from the Lord to gather & build a Temple & city somewhere in the Rocky Mountains - but supposedly only a select few will be gathered. The movement has had tons of in-fighting and disagreement over really simple stuff - like supposedly they were supposed to produce a simple document by mutual agreement that was to be a Guide & Standard and Statement of Principles. A bunch of them wouldn't accept the majority supported document. Remember good ol' Log? He drew a line in the sand and said he would only accept the document he produced and that he would oppose anything else - and he also said that moving forward with anything but his doc was "defrauding" the Lord of "mutual agreement" (everyone needing to agree unanimously). So he tried to hold everyone hostage with his vote by disputing everything but his own document (which, of course, he claims was the only worthy one). So ridiculous. Good luck building ZION when you can't even agree on a piece of paper. I don't think Denver or his claims are legit - I believe he has grandiose delusions. So far all he has produced, that I can tell, are words - millions of words. But he's presented some very novel and interesting ideas. Waking up from his spell was very enlightening. Like another bubble popped. I really like the Remnant folks though - good people - very conscientious - would love to have almost any of them as neighbors. Love and Peace.

[Jonesy]

It’s been a while since I’ve visited Snuffer’s website.

[about Joseph Smith withdrawing of the commandment to keep the law of consecration:]

Joseph died before the Lord gave any command to resume it. Therefore the earlier commandment, still in the T&C, as well as the D&C, is not to be kept. Since it was the will of the Lord that consecration end, it will require a new command from the Lord to resume the attempt.

—website of Denver Snuffer

This says a lot to me. Does this mean Snuffer acknowledges he lacks any authority to receive a commandment to continue it again?

This whole thing is painful. Snuffer criticized the LDS church for not having any prophets, yet he doesn’t seem to be one himself. Is he still waiting for this end times servant as well? If so, what’s the point of his movement? They don’t claim to be a church, but a “remnant”...a remnant that did not remain with the church to be put back in order by this end time servant.

He's actually produced several revelations and a translation (more of a revelatory commentary, if you ask me) of the book of John which is supposed to be a fulfillment of D&C 7. Denver & company are still waiting for "commandments" from the Lord to gather & build a Temple & city somewhere in the Rocky Mountains - but supposedly only a select few will be gathered. The movement has had tons of in-fighting and disagreement over really simple stuff - like supposedly they were supposed to produce a simple document by mutual agreement that was to be a Guide & Standard and Statement of Principles. A bunch of them wouldn't accept the majority supported document. Remember good ol' Log? He drew a line in the sand and said he would only accept the document he produced and that he would oppose anything else - and he also said that moving forward with anything but his doc was "defrauding" the Lord of "mutual agreement" (everyone needing to agree unanimously). So he tried to hold everyone hostage with his vote by disputing everything but his own document (which, of course, he claims was the only worthy one). So ridiculous. Good luck building ZION when you can't even agree on a piece of paper. I don't think Denver or his claims are legit - I believe he has grandiose delusions. So far all he has produced, that I can tell, are words - millions of words. But he's presented some very novel and interesting ideas. Waking up from his spell was very enlightening. Like another bubble popped. I really like the Remnant folks though - good people - very conscientious - would love to have almost any of them as neighbors. Love and Peace.

I have no doubt that they are decent people, including Snuffer.

I wonder who they think God’s house is that will be set in order. Their movement? The LDS church? I wonder what happens when the end time servant comes and puts the LDS church back in order. I think most would come back.

[jdt]

I have no doubt that they are decent people, including Snuffer.

I wonder who they think God’s house is that will be set in order. Their movement? The LDS church? I wonder what happens when the end time servant comes and puts the LDS church back in order. I think most would come back.

Now that is a curious statement. For the sake of conversation, let's assume your idea is right. And I am only looking for what you would find a plausible future, not an exact prophetic one.
Where would this end time servant come from?
What would (s)he do?
What does it mean to "put the LDS church back in order"?

[AI2.0]

It’s been a while since I’ve visited Snuffer’s website.

[about Joseph Smith withdrawing of the commandment to keep the law of consecration:]

Joseph died before the Lord gave any command to resume it. Therefore the earlier commandment, still in the T&C, as well as the D&C, is not to be kept. Since it was the will of the Lord that consecration end, it will require a new command from the Lord to resume the attempt.

—website of Denver Snuffer

This says a lot to me. Does this mean Snuffer acknowledges he lacks any authority to receive a commandment to continue it again?

This whole thing is painful. Snuffer criticized the LDS church for not having any prophets, yet he doesn’t seem to be one himself. Is he still waiting for this end times servant as well? If so, what’s the point of his movement? They don’t claim to be a church, but a “remnant”...a remnant that did not remain with the church to be put back in order by this end time servant.

He's actually produced several revelations and a translation (more of a revelatory commentary, if you ask me) of the book of John which is supposed to be a fulfillment of D&C 7. Denver & company are still waiting for "commandments" from the Lord to gather & build a Temple & city somewhere in the Rocky Mountains - but supposedly only a select few will be gathered. The movement has had tons of in-fighting and disagreement over really simple stuff - like supposedly they were supposed to produce a simple document by mutual agreement that was to be a Guide & Standard and Statement of Principles. A bunch of them wouldn't accept the majority supported document. Remember good ol' Log? He drew a line in the sand and said he would only accept the document he produced and that he would oppose anything else - and he also said that moving forward with anything but his doc was "defrauding" the Lord of "mutual agreement" (everyone needing to agree unanimously). So he tried to hold everyone hostage with his vote by disputing everything but his own document (which, of course, he claims was the only worthy one). So ridiculous. Good luck building ZION when you can't even agree on a piece of paper. I don't think Denver or his claims are legit - I believe he has grandiose delusions. So far all he has produced, that I can tell, are words - millions of words. But he's presented some very novel and interesting ideas. Waking up from his spell was very enlightening. Like another bubble popped. I really like the Remnant folks though - good people - very conscientious - would love to have almost any of them as neighbors. Love and Peace.

I have no doubt that they are decent people, including Snuffer.

I wonder who they think God’s house is that will be set in order. Their movement? The LDS church? I wonder what happens when the end time servant comes and puts the LDS church back in order. I think most would come back.

IMO, It's obvious those who have followed Snuffer out of the church believe he's going to 'set the church in order'--He apparently thinks this as well, since he's calling himself 'David' now. IMO, the church is not 'out' of order in such a manner that we need an 'end time servant'. What we need are faithfilled members who are spiritually in tune and listening to their Prophets as well as revelation guiding them each day. When the members begin to live up to their privileges, as Pres. Nelson is trying to help them to do, then we will see a change.
Snuffer and his movement will come to naught. It's already clear that it's not what Snuffer claimed it was. I also noticed that contentious fighting over their Guide and Standard. I guess it got so bad that they've closed down their public comments on their website so it can't be viewed--they clearly don't want it known to the world how it's devolved.

And Snuffer seems to have distanced himself from his own movement and it's members. I could be wrong, but it sure seems that he'd rather not be too involved in what he started. Maybe he actually intellectually realizes that he lacks authority to start a new religion.

[drtanner]

Denver Who?

[Jonesy]

I have no doubt that they are decent people, including Snuffer.

I wonder who they think God’s house is that will be set in order. Their movement? The LDS church? I wonder what happens when the end time servant comes and puts the LDS church back in order. I think most would come back.

Now that is a curious statement. For the sake of conversation, let's assume your idea is right. And I am only looking for what you would find a plausible future, not an exact prophetic one.
Where would this end time servant come from?
What would (s)he do?
What does it mean to "put the LDS church back in order"?

I think that the end time servant will be LDS based on evidence here. I think he will “set in order the house of God” in a manner explained here and here.

[inquirringmind]

Remember good ol' Log? He drew a line in the sand and said he would only accept the document he produced and that he would oppose anything else - and he also said that moving forward with anything but his doc was "defrauding" the Lord of "mutual agreement" (everyone needing to agree unanimously).

But doesn't he have a point there?

Ginen the wording of the AC, wouldn't they have to unanamously agree on a guiding principles statement to fulfill "The Lord's assignment'?

Isn't that what "mutual agreement" means?

And wouldn't pretending that anything less than that was mutual agreement be fraud?

I see no flaw in his logic there, so don't you at least have to give him that?

[Jesef]

His tactics were extortive and hardly in the spirit of "agreeing" with anyone and he knows it. It was a passive aggressive form of coercion. Ridiculous. The "revelation" or commandment should have been more specific and unambiguous and said something like "unanimous" and "every covenant holder" or whatever. So lame. Not the Lord, in my opinion. And not much of a "Lord's Covenant People" either. But I still love 'em all, including Log & Denver/Dave.

[Red]

But is there evidence that Joseph himself practiced or approved of polygamy, or could it have been practiced without his approval in his lifetime, and made doctrine after his death (as Denver, and log, and some here are teaching)?

And where did Joseph say that only Brigham and Heber were loyal?

Is there any contemporary first hand evidence that he said that?

I’ve read a lot about Joseph claiming he wasn’t a polygamist and a lot claiming he was. I tend to want to believe what Sidney Rigdon and Emma said about Joseph (that he wasn’t) but in the end, anything I read could’ve been altered or changed or taken out of context. Literally anything. It bothers me not to know but my husband tells me that since it was 200 years ago, does it even matter? In my heart, God doesn’t want us to be polygamists. He never did. In my heart, Joseph wasn’t. I can’t shake that feeling inside that polygamy is evil and that all the arguments that it’s from God are arguments that grasp at straws. I’ve been told that feeling is personal revelation. Tbh, it feels so wrong that if it is indeed a thing, I think I’d rather be an avenging angel. It feels like such a sexist principle. It doesn’t feel like something that would come from a loving God.

[inquirringmind]

According to Denver Snuffer, Brigham Young was an adulterous liar and corrupter of the Church, and Joseph never practiced polygamy--but is there any real, contemporary evidence that Joseph did practice polygamy?

Or does all the evidence go back to the Temple Lot case, decades after Joseph was killed, when the women who went west with Brigham would have had reason to lie?

Is there any real, contemporary evidence that Joseph practiced polygamy?

If you take the time to really study this subject, you can find contemporary written evidence. William Clayton comes to mind. Many dismiss the evidence which was brought forward during the Temple lot suit because they say the women were lying, they didn't admit to being polygamous wives until 40 years later, but they ignore the fact that at the time they were practicing it, they were charged not to tell anyone--to keep it secret. Later, polygamy became publicly practiced and the women felt free to reveal their involvement.

The claim now put forward is that polygamy was introduced by Brigham Young and Joseph had nothing to do with it. This is clearly false if you look at some of the very first polygamists. Hyrum Smith is a perfect example as he died at the same time as Joseph and he was a polygamist. There's no way he would have gotten involved in this practice if Joseph had not been the one to introduce it. Also, Willard Richards, who died only a few years after coming to the Salt Lake Valley--he and many others like him started practicing polygamy in Nauvoo--they would not have done this at Brigham Young's urging--it would have to have come from Joseph.


Unfortunately, here we see how the church's decision to not really discuss and educate members on our polygamist past for decades, provided the opportunity for people like Snuffer to teach this 'revisionist' history and get away with it. The average LDS member has little knowledge on this practice within the church so a smooth tongued type, like Snuffer can come in and teach lies and people will believe them.

It wasn't hard for him to do it either, since the RLDS church set the tone and built the foundation for this denial of Joseph's involvement and Brigham Young being the instigator. Those who promote this are even using the same old arguments and claims from 150 years ago--they've just dusted them off and put them forward again. But, it was false then and it's false now.

Historical events provide the evidence, but if you really want to know, Inquiring mind, you'll have to actually research it. I'm not sure this is important though. In the past, you've told us you aren't a member of the church and so your pressing need is to get answers from God as to the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Don't bother even concerning yourself about Snuffer--he's created a break off sect (of which there are many) and so he can be disregarded because he lacks authority to have done this.

Is there any DNA evidence that Hyrum Smith was a polygamist, or that his plural wives bore him any children?

[Red]

I am NOT a follower of Denver Snuffer - I think he is a well-intentioned, good person - who's gone off the rails and now has a prophet-complex - I think he's "spiritually extreme" - like many others on this forum, btw. He's relatively harmless, though - except if you're hardcore and think being led away from the LDS Church is tantamount to spiritual murder/suicide - which I also understand. Our LDS paradigm could be summarized, not by its content alone, but by one principle - Loyalty (to the Keys, to the Brethren, to the Church) - this is why many other Christians consider us a Cult. Denver is harmless in the sense that he's not a violent jihadist - that's what I mean.

I would say Denver's gospel is just simply the Doctrine of Christ & teachings of Christ (like Sermon on the Mount), particularly as revealed through Joseph Smith & the Book of Mormon, for now - this may evolve as he starts to receive more revelations of his own. His historical view is somewhat unique & has doctrinal bearing: in that he claims the Church was at least partially rejected after the deaths of Joseph & Hyrum and did not complete the Nauvoo Temple in the allotted time, per D&C 124. As a result, he claims, the actual Melchizedek Priesthood (& keys), were withdrawn and only the Aaronic Priesthood (& keys) really continued. The implications of this are that the LDS Church's baptisms were still valid & divinely approved, and people could still receive the Holy Ghost and higher blessings only on an individual basis (not through Church authority/keys) - hence, all of our endowments and sealings and ordinances for the dead were also invalid. He claims these Aaronic priesthood keys were wrested from the Church in April 2014 and that he and his followers now possess them (& the LDS Church no longer does). He also alludes to having Melchizedek Priesthood and Fulness of the Priesthood keys (this is not dissimilar from nearly every splinter group to date) but is not authorized to exercise them yet. They anticipate building their own Temple, gathering, and building the City of Zion at an undisclosed site in the Rocky Mountain West somewhere - this will be done with a select group who have proven themselves worthy of gathering (lots of in-fighting and posturing people in the movement right now - many, it seems, will get "left behind" unless they repent & are able to become "one"). It will be a secret location, so that only the worthy can gather. Not sure how they will accomplish that, but at some point we can anticipate these folks literally dropping off the map & probably off the (power) grid, too. That's where they will build their Temple & things will really get freaky - all those spiritual seekers/extremists in one location. Who knows, maybe they'll get along just fine? Anyway, they'll wait it out there until "the end of the world" & all the massive destructions they anticipate. They believe Angels and the Lord will visit them there and that angels will gather people from all over to come to their city - basically our D&C version of Zion at that point - and eventually Enoch & his City will meet them, etc. All that. So that's Denver's movement in a nutshell & he is the JS2.0/Enoch/Melchizedek figure, of course.

Sounded ok until it turned into a “cool kids only” club. Didn’t really figure Jesus to be that sort.

[inquirringmind]

His tactics were extortive and hardly in the spirit of "agreeing" with anyone and he knows it. It was a passive aggressive form of coercion. Ridiculous. The "revelation" or commandment should have been more specific and unambiguous and said something like "unanimous" and "every covenant holder" or whatever. So lame. Not the Lord, in my opinion. And not much of a "Lord's Covenant People" either. But I still love 'em all, including Log & Denver/Dave.

I try to live in charity with all men, and to pray for all my aquintances and their families, and those they hold dear, so I can say much the same thing about Jared and Denver, the rest of those in the remnaent movement, those in my local LDS ward, you, and the rest of you here.

But the remnant people believe that the words of the AC were given to Denver by God, and if that's true it would seem that Jared has a point (ie that mutual agreement means unanimous agreement), and that they (as a people) have failed God's assignment by not agreeing to what he calls the rock of Christ (ie the sermon on the mount, and the BOM sermon at Bountiful) as a guide and standard once it became apparent that he would agree to nothing else.

He also seems to have a point when he says that the AC leaves them no means to excomunicate him from their body, and it would seem to follow (as he says) that unless they repent and agree with him on the sermon on the mount/sermon at Bountiful as a guide and standard, they'll be rejected as a people and unable to accomplish anything.

All this is of course irrelevant if Denver isn't a prophet, but given their belief system, Jared does seem to have a point, and it would all seem to follow from the AC, his proposal, and subseqeunt developements--don't you think?

[jdt]

I try to live in charity with all men, and to pray for all my aquintances and their families, and those they hold dear, so I can say much the same thing about Jared and Denver, the rest of those in the remnaent movement, those in my local LDS ward, you, and the rest of you here.

But the remnant people believe that the words of the AC were given to Denver by God, and if that's true it would seem that Jared has a point (ie that mutual agreement means unanimous agreement), and that they (as a people) have failed God's assignment by not agreeing to what he calls the rock of Christ (ie the sermon on the mount, and the BOM sermon at Bountiful) as a guide and standard once it became apparent that he would agree to nothing else.

He also seems to have a point when he says that the AC leaves them no means to excomunicate him from their body, and it would seem to follow (as he says) that unless they repent and agree with him on the sermon on the mount/sermon at Bountiful as a guide and standard, they'll be rejected as a people and unable to accomplish anything.

All this is of course irrelevant if Denver isn't a prophet, but given their belief system, Jared does seem to have a point, and it would all seem to follow from the AC, his proposal, and subseqeunt developements--don't you think?

Couple thoughts:
It is a little unfair to Log to focus solely on his actions (antics). There are others who have, in my opinion, also acted poorly. That said, Log does make himself front and center in all the discussions.
Log presents an interesting conundrum. He admitted that he took the covenant under false pretenses (he got caught up in the moment but did not know the Answer was from God). So in his mind this means he must fulfill the covenant. And he has also stated he has felt cursed since he has taken it. So even though he does to his own mind try to fulfill it, the one thing he can't do is to actually act like he knows that the Answer was from God. He can work on the Guide and Standard, can teach his children to honor God, work to reclaim the lost sheep remnant of this land and of Israel, and so on, but at the root of it, knowing that the Answer came from God is not an action he can do like the others. And this then exudes into everything else that he does. His chief argument against the other Guide and Standards is that they contain the words of Denver, which he interprets the mere act of quoting them as trusting in the arm of flesh. I claim that if he believed the Answer came from God, he would realize how faulty that logic is and then his whole house comes tumbling down.
Lastly, do we know why the Lord asked for G&S? I speculate that it had nothing (or at least little) to do with creating a missionary tract. I think it had everything to do with bringing us together to do something (without Denver's unifying influence) and let people put their hearts on display. And for my part, if you were to tell me know that Log's actions were representative of what Zion will be like, I would say thanks, but I will pass. Now there are many others with whom I have disagreed with on the matter, but have great respect for the way they have acted. Yes this has been expensive tuition, but it has been a learning experience for a great many on how to act around other people when all seem to have equal input on the matter.

[EdGoble]

I try to live in charity with all men, and to pray for all my aquintances and their families, and those they hold dear, so I can say much the same thing about Jared and Denver, the rest of those in the remnaent movement, those in my local LDS ward, you, and the rest of you here.

But the remnant people believe that the words of the AC were given to Denver by God, and if that's true it would seem that Jared has a point (ie that mutual agreement means unanimous agreement), and that they (as a people) have failed God's assignment by not agreeing to what he calls the rock of Christ (ie the sermon on the mount, and the BOM sermon at Bountiful) as a guide and standard once it became apparent that he would agree to nothing else.

He also seems to have a point when he says that the AC leaves them no means to excomunicate him from their body, and it would seem to follow (as he says) that unless they repent and agree with him on the sermon on the mount/sermon at Bountiful as a guide and standard, they'll be rejected as a people and unable to accomplish anything.

All this is of course irrelevant if Denver isn't a prophet, but given their belief system, Jared does seem to have a point, and it would all seem to follow from the AC, his proposal, and subseqeunt developements--don't you think?

Couple thoughts:
It is a little unfair to Log to focus solely on his actions (antics). There are others who have, in my opinion, also acted poorly. That said, Log does make himself front and center in all the discussions.
Log presents an interesting conundrum. He admitted that he took the covenant under false pretenses (he got caught up in the moment but did not know the Answer was from God). So in his mind this means he must fulfill the covenant. And he has also stated he has felt cursed since he has taken it. So even though he does to his own mind try to fulfill it, the one thing he can't do is to actually act like he knows that the Answer was from God. He can work on the Guide and Standard, can teach his children to honor God, work to reclaim the lost sheep remnant of this land and of Israel, and so on, but at the root of it, knowing that the Answer came from God is not an action he can do like the others. And this then exudes into everything else that he does. His chief argument against the other Guide and Standards is that they contain the words of Denver, which he interprets the mere act of quoting them as trusting in the arm of flesh. I claim that if he believed the Answer came from God, he would realize how faulty that logic is and then his whole house comes tumbling down.
Lastly, do we know why the Lord asked for G&S? I speculate that it had nothing (or at least little) to do with creating a missionary tract. I think it had everything to do with bringing us together to do something (without Denver's unifying influence) and let people put their hearts on display. And for my part, if you were to tell me know that Log's actions were representative of what Zion will be like, I would say thanks, but I will pass. Now there are many others with whom I have disagreed with on the matter, but have great respect for the way they have acted. Yes this has been expensive tuition, but it has been a learning experience for a great many on how to act around other people when all seem to have equal input on the matter.

I have to say that even though I am totally against the remnant, and have no sympathy for it, or for Denver Snuffer, every so often, seeing things about how far this thing has gone and what it has turned into, and the dynamics of it is a very interesting phenomenon, almost as entertaining as watching news reports about Donald Trump or scientology. It's kind of like how I watched how John Dehlin became what he is, and how the Mormon Stories phenomenon has become what it is. It's just incredibly fascinating to watch things evolve from humble beginnings into these unbelievably complex and large groups. Not that this necessarily gives any of them credibility or validity.

I respect people's rights to worship how and what they choose, but it is very fascinating.

[AI2.0]

According to Denver Snuffer, Brigham Young was an adulterous liar and corrupter of the Church, and Joseph never practiced polygamy--but is there any real, contemporary evidence that Joseph did practice polygamy?

Or does all the evidence go back to the Temple Lot case, decades after Joseph was killed, when the women who went west with Brigham would have had reason to lie?

Is there any real, contemporary evidence that Joseph practiced polygamy?

If you take the time to really study this subject, you can find contemporary written evidence. William Clayton comes to mind. Many dismiss the evidence which was brought forward during the Temple lot suit because they say the women were lying, they didn't admit to being polygamous wives until 40 years later, but they ignore the fact that at the time they were practicing it, they were charged not to tell anyone--to keep it secret. Later, polygamy became publicly practiced and the women felt free to reveal their involvement.

The claim now put forward is that polygamy was introduced by Brigham Young and Joseph had nothing to do with it. This is clearly false if you look at some of the very first polygamists. Hyrum Smith is a perfect example as he died at the same time as Joseph and he was a polygamist. There's no way he would have gotten involved in this practice if Joseph had not been the one to introduce it. Also, Willard Richards, who died only a few years after coming to the Salt Lake Valley--he and many others like him started practicing polygamy in Nauvoo--they would not have done this at Brigham Young's urging--it would have to have come from Joseph.


Unfortunately, here we see how the church's decision to not really discuss and educate members on our polygamist past for decades, provided the opportunity for people like Snuffer to teach this 'revisionist' history and get away with it. The average LDS member has little knowledge on this practice within the church so a smooth tongued type, like Snuffer can come in and teach lies and people will believe them.

It wasn't hard for him to do it either, since the RLDS church set the tone and built the foundation for this denial of Joseph's involvement and Brigham Young being the instigator. Those who promote this are even using the same old arguments and claims from 150 years ago--they've just dusted them off and put them forward again. But, it was false then and it's false now.

Historical events provide the evidence, but if you really want to know, Inquiring mind, you'll have to actually research it. I'm not sure this is important though. In the past, you've told us you aren't a member of the church and so your pressing need is to get answers from God as to the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Don't bother even concerning yourself about Snuffer--he's created a break off sect (of which there are many) and so he can be disregarded because he lacks authority to have done this.

Is there any DNA evidence that Hyrum Smith was a polygamist, or that his plural wives bore him any children?

No, he didn't have any children with Catherine Phillips or Mercy Fielding Thompson, his plural wives. But, his son, Joseph F. Smith (son of Mary Fielding Smith) would have known if this claim, that Hyrum was a polygamist, was a lie, as he had a lifetime relationship with his aunt Mercy. There then was his other Aunt, Agnes Coolbrith. She was legally married to Joseph's uncle Don Carlos Smith. When he died, Joseph Smith jr. married Agnes polygamously. Years later, after traveling to Salt lake, Agnes left the church and moved to California but Joseph F., her nephew visited her whenever he traveled that way and wrote to her and her daughter (his cousin) often. Joseph F. knew about this as did many others at the time. They knew who the women were who'd been sealed to Joseph Smith, such as Eliza R. Snow and others. These people lived polygamy--they didn't know that decades later people would demand proof of things they saw no reason to dispute as they were well known.

I have to say, if DNA is the only proof you'll accept then I guess you're stuck. So far, they've never been able to find any actual children born to Joseph Smith either, most likely because polygamy was so volatile, it was practiced in secret and not many children were actually born during that time. It wasn't until the Saints left Nauvoo that we see much in the way of offspring from these marriages. But, there's plenty of support in the form of written evidence that they happened.



But, I'm still puzzled by you, Inquiring mind. As I recall, you aren't LDS and you've been 'investigating' the Snuffer non-church to decide if you should join them for years now. Did you ever join them? I seem to recall you had problems with one of the groups and I think also their old website before it was taken down. Are you still investigating Snuffer's claims? If you aren't LDS, how did you ever find out about Snuffer in the first place?

[inquirringmind]

But I'm still puzzled by you, Inquiring mind. As I recall, you aren't LDS and you've been 'investigating' the Snuffer non-church to decide if you should join them for years now. Did you ever join them? I seem to recall you had problems with one of the groups and I think also their old website before it was taken down. Are you still investigating Snuffer's claims? If you aren't LDS, how did you ever find out about Snuffer in the first place?

I learned about Mr. Snuffer online when I was investigating the main stream LDS church.

I thought he did a convincing job of discrediting your claims (from your own history), and I think Jared (log) has done an equally convincing job of discrediting the remnant movement (using their AC)--unless and until they all agree on his guide and standard proposal.

I think he's clearly shown that given the wording of the assignment they're given in their AC, and the warning attached to it, that they themselves are in a state of apostacy and must be rejected as a people unless and until they all agree on a single guide and standard.

And that's what makes what they're doing and saying now, and what Jared is doing and saying now, and the what Mr. Snuffer is doing and saying now, of great interest to me.

What ever you all might think of Jared and Denver, to my mind and they discredited Brigham and the mainstream church a long time ago, and in terms of my investigation, they and their group are the only ones left standing.

I do not wish to offend anyone, but it seemed to me that you asked an honest and straight forward a question that deserved an honest and straight forward answer.

[Jesef]

No, I don't think Jared/Log had (or has, if it's still going on) a good point. I think he exploited the conditions and decided and basically said, "I'm right, I'm the only one who is right, and I won't consider or agree with anyone else's document except mine, THEREFORE (because of "mutual agreement") YOU MUST ALL AGREE WITH ME OR FAIL - and if you move on without me (also exploiting his "covenant holder" status, however conflicted or reluctant "can't unring the bell") then YOU'RE DEFRAUDING THE LORD (not abiding by the conditions I'm exploiting)". That's Jared's/Log's tactic and position in a nutshell. And it is the OPPOSITE of being mutually (working with others) agreeable (open to agreement & forms of compromise, language, format, etc.). He was adamant and "stick-necked" about the whole thing - ONLY HIS DOCUMENT - no variations, no explanations, so LITERALISTIC and INFLEXIBLE. So, no, I disagree, he did not have a good point. He broke all sorts of commandments in his tirades & crusading for his own "perfect" version - he did not seek mutual agreement with anybody - he only sought to persuade and extort others (again, using the language of the "revelation" assignment against). Jared/Log either does not appear to live the Golden Rule (in any sensible way, or he has too many loopholes for it) - or he is mentally ill (on the spectrum, and literally cannot be flexible or agreeable) - because a normal/healthy person would not treat others the way he does and want to be treated that way himself. No way in hell any kind of "ZION" could be built or sustained on this model (I'm always right & everyone should follow my lead). And I think a lot of Denver's comments about people being "froward" or whatever were probably directed at Jared/Log and the ruckus he was causing on such a relatively simple assignment. How can you be mutually agreeable or ONE if you can't even get along with others and show them and their views the same kind of respect and consideration you would want given to yourself? You can't. Log's problem is that he really thinks he's better than everyone else, smarter, wiser, more knowledgeable in scripture - and then he beats people to death with his scriptural interpretations (which are literal and correct, of course). He does not treat people as equals probably because he does not SEE them as equals. He is the teacher, and everyone else is some kind of child or student (which is ironic considering some of his past tirades on "paternalism"). I don't think ZION can be built with know-it-all, adamant, spiritual extremists. It would take truly humble, kind, meek/gentle, forgiving, unselfish, loving, EASILY ENTREATED (pure Love of Christ) people. Jared/Log seems to come up with excuses for why he doesn't have to become such a person or develop those traits (maybe he's broken & needs healing, I don't know & I do not condemn him in any way, his soul - just describing his behavior & MO). But that's why he can't get along with others. So some people would have to go through an extreme character makeover or development curriculum first.

But I also do NOT believe Denver is legitimate, so it's all fun and games as far as I'm concerned. ZION may be like OZ, pure fantasy - or maybe it's just allegorical/symbolism of the Spirit World, after we die. If would be nice if people could be like Christ and live in love, joy, and peace. Who knows. Maybe there are enough people in Denver's movement who are Christ-like that they will be able to gather and do something. It's crazy.

[inquirringmind]

Someone in the remnant movement must think Jared has a point about the danger of printing a document that hasn't received unanimous support, and attaching it to their scriptures (as though it filfilled the assignment given them in the AC), because no such document has been printed and attached (even though I believe all but Jared and a few others supported the lots document.)

But given the words of the AC, doesn't that still leave their assignment unfulfilled, and them in a state of apostacy (unable to establsh Zion, or to accomplish anything else the Lord might require of them)?

And doesn't this fact, as long as it stands, discredit their movement?

[Jesef]

The funny thing about Remnants is that there will probably be, if there isn't already, a remnant of the remnant. Denver has taught as much: not everyone will be gathered, only those who truly are worthy. That means, at some point, there won't be any need for excommunication - get rid of the Logs or other roadblocks - there will be a smaller group who is chosen out of this current group which is not able to mutually agree. Or, Denver/David gets another revelation that changes the conditions/commands, kinda like D&C 124 - revoking commandments, giving new ones, etc. That could happen prior to the other. That's how I see it.

[AGStacker]

Who is Denver Snuffer? I've never heard about him until I joined this board. Most Mormons don't even know who this guy is.

Someone who claims to know Jesus personally and that he has been asked to deliver a series of messages and has been doing so for some time.

I personally think Denver is authentic. There were more discussions about Denver's message on this site when Brian believed Denver but then changed his mind. There was a Heavenly Gift forum with great discussions that was eliminated. Denver has a series of books that can be purchased or a number of lectures and blog posts that can be found on his website which is his name .com.

I don't trust offshoots of the main church though. I sustain Russell M. Nelson, The First Presidency, and the Quorum of 12 Apostles.

That's perfectly fine. President of the Church he is...prophet I do not believe.

[inquirringmind]

The funny thing about Remnants is that there will probably be, if there isn't already, a remnant of the remnant. Denver has taught as much: not everyone will be gathered, only those who truly are worthy. That means, at some point, there won't be any need for excommunication - get rid of the Logs or other roadblocks - there will be a smaller group who is chosen out of this current group which is not able to mutually agree. Or, Denver/David gets another revelation that changes the conditions/commands, kinda like D&C 124 - revoking commandments, giving new ones, etc. That could happen prior to the other. That's how I see it.

But so far as I know Denver hasn't claimed to have another revelation that changes the conditions or commands.

Wouldn't it be nice if they were posting in the open, and we could all see what they were saying?

And don't you miss our old buddy Jared (log)?

Wouldn't it be nice if he were still posting here and we could see what he was saying?

I'd sure like to know what he said on the passing the heavenly gift forum here the night he was banned, and what context he said it in.

Was he attacking polygamy, or defending?

Attacking an individual, or what they were saying?

And what were they saying?

Was he defending "the prophet" (Joseph), or being disrespectful to him?

Was anybody there, reading along that night?

And does anyone remember?

And if it's not appropriate to reply here for some reason, could you please pm me?

[inquirringmind]

And as far as there always being another remnant, isn't it funny that what we end up with in scripture isn't a remnant that anyone could count on one hand, but an innumerable multitude which no man could number?

[Jesef]

inquiringmind, there has always been and always will be spiritual leaders or prophet-types who claim they are God's One True Messenger with One True Message who draw a following of people who then believe they are spiritually more special/chosen/elect/elite than everyone else. They really believe in a God who plays favorites. And as the world population continues to grow, now 7.5B+, this sort of proposition becomes more and more ridiculous. God isn't choosing Denver and his less-than-3000 followers to be his Chosen Covenant People, out of everyone on the planet. It's a consciousness bubble. And eventually, they will create an expectation or a prophecy that they can't fulfill - like Jim Harmston & his TLC movement did - like a Second Coming event that won't occur, or something similar. The LDS Church has avoided doing that and survived all its contradictions. Now we have Apostles who don't claim to actually SEE (actually meaning of "WITNESS") Christ - but who veil their language in "as if" and "know" but won't say they've met Christ. It's very contrary to New Testament Apostles - that's ALL they did. Denver is doing THAT. But so did Jim Harmston and others who ended up being crackpots. We'll see what happens, but I don't see any real POWER (or signs) following Denver or his movement. All the experiences seem to be spiritual/ethereal (not real power in the physical world). Jesus said actual physical signs would follow/accompany those who Believe - well, I guess I haven't found anyone who truly meets that criteria. Maybe it was mistranslated. You'd think someone could actually perform miracles by now.