The Gospel according to Denver Snuffer

[inquirringmind]

I have also had lunch with Denver and his wife. I think I shared that on this forum years ago. And it was Jared who invited me

I find that interesting.

Thank you.

Could you please tell me what year that was?

And was it before or after Mr. Snuffer was excommunicated from the LDS church?

And was Jared an active member of this form, posting as "log" here, at the time?

I had not planned on participating, but at the last minute, I decided it was an opportunity worth exploring and one I didn't want to pass up after all.

And did you (at the last minute) receive a personal revelation that you should in fact accept this invitation, or did you just decide that you didn't want to miss an opportunity to have lunch with Mr. Snuffer?

Please reply.

Thank you.

[marc]

I don't remember what year so I don't remember if it was before or after his excommunication. I think it was while Jared was still an active member here because that is how I got to know him. It wasn't personal revelation that led me to meet with them. I just wanted to see what all the hub bub was about. But I'm the kind of person who enjoys making new friends and meeting them for lunch so this it is not uncharacteristic of me to do something like this.

[inquirringmind]

I don't remember what year so I don't remember if it was before or after his excommunication. I think it was while Jared was still an active member here because that is how I got to know him. It wasn't personal revelation that led me to meet with them. I just wanted to see what all the hub bub was about. But I'm the kind of person who enjoys making new friends and meeting them for lunch so this it is not uncharacteristic of me to do something like this.

Thank you.

I find that interesting.

I remember asking Jared (when we were on very good terms, exchanging emails and talking over the phone) if he had ever heard of Denver Snuffer, and I got the impression they didn't know each other.

I do recall him saying that he had read his books, and the only false teaching he had found was that no one can be perfect here in mortality.

He said that was false doctrine, but everyone was already teaching it, so it probably didn't matter much if Denver was teaching it.

But as far as personal revelation is concerned, did you follow Jared's posts on the Guide and Standard Blogspot before they shut it down?

Did you know that if you don't measure up to the sermon on the mount, and you receive some personal revelation supporting Joseph Smith, the book of Mormon, Denver, and the lots document (or any other Guide and Standard, other than Jared's), it could be from some lying spirit, trying to decieve you, because you have no promise you won't be deceived?

At least that's what Jared kept saying before they shut that site down.

Do you believe that?

Could you be deceived?

How do you measure up to the sermon on the mount today?

And how did you measure up when you had that lunch with Denver, and his wife, and Jared?

Could you have been deceived then (or in the days, and weeks, and months that followed)?

And is it possible to perfectly measure up to the principles of the sermon on the mount here in this life today?

I believe Mr. Snuffer said it isn't, somewhere on his blog.

Is that really a false teaching?

All these things are relevant to the Gospel (and particularly the gospel according to Denver Snuffer), aren't they?

And do you personally support Jared's GS proposal, the lots document, or some other proposal.

Thank you.

And please reply.

P.S Jared and I were on good terms once, and I'd like to talk to him again.

I tried reaching him when I was in the hospital with a weak heart back in March, but he never returned my calls.

The medicine they put me on back then worked, my heart is functioning at 50% now, I don't have to wear a life vest (Zoll, wearable defibilator) any more, and they tell me I won't need heart surgery.

Could you update him and ask him to give me a call?

I think he still has my phone number.

[marc]

I don't remember what year so I don't remember if it was before or after his excommunication. I think it was while Jared was still an active member here because that is how I got to know him. It wasn't personal revelation that led me to meet with them. I just wanted to see what all the hub bub was about. But I'm the kind of person who enjoys making new friends and meeting them for lunch so this it is not uncharacteristic of me to do something like this.

Thank you.

I find that interesting.

I remember asking Jared (when we were on very friendly terms, exchanging emails and talking over the phone) if he had ever heard of Denver Snuffer, and I got the impression they didn't know each other.

I do recall him saying that he had read his books, and the only false teaching he had found was that no one can be perfect here in mortality.

He said that was false doctrine, but everyone was already teaching it, so it probably didn't matter much if Denver was teaching it.

But as far as personal revelation is concerned, did you follow Jared's posts on the Guide and Standard Blogspot before they shut it down?

I read some of what he wrote, but I did not follow nor participate in that movement and that was a direct result of personal revelation. The Lord has something else in mind for me and I do not yet know what that is.

Did you know that if you don't measure up to the sermon on the mount, and you receive some personal revelation supporting Joseph Smith, the book of Mormon, Denver, and the lots document (or any other Guide and Standard, other than Jared's), it could be from some lying spirit, trying to decieve you, because you have no promise you won't be deceived?

I completely believe Jesus Christ's teachings in His sermon on the mount and at Bountiful. They sum up, in my mind, the law of the gospel, which I covenanted to obey in the temple.

At least that's what Jared kept saying before they shut that site down.

I wouldn't know.

Do you believe that?

I don't have enough information to say yes or no.

Could you be deceived?

Anybody could be deceived.

How do you measure up to the sermon on the mount today?

That is for my Savior to decide. I can only measure my efforts to live up to those teachings and I can honestly say that I am doing my very best to live up to those teachings.

And how did you measure up when you had that lunch with Denver, and his wife, and Jared?

That day was just one day along a linear timeline in my life. But I love them just as much as I love you or any other person. That is what the gospel is about. It is about loving and befriending and fellowshipping with others and learning to become one.

Could you have been deceived then (or in the days, and weeks, and months that followed)?

Sure. Any of us can be deceived at any time, which is why we need to receive the Holy Ghost and pray always concerning all things and learn to commune with the Lord and be led only by Him.

And is it possible to perfectly measure up to the principles of the sermon on the mount here in this life today?

I certainly believe so. But I also know that if I don't, and Jesus searches my heart, He will know I am living my life according to His words with all my heart, might, mind, and strength and His grace will be sufficient for me.

I believe Mr. Snuffer said it isn't, somewhere on his blog.

Is that really a false teaching?

I believe that any teaching, which came directly from Jesus Christ's own lips, including the sermon on the mount is true. Therefore, how could it be false? Therefore, why would anyone contend against it, unless they simply do not believe Jesus or anyone including Jared who promoted the sermon on the mount word for word?

All these things are relevant to the Gospel (and particularly the gospel according to Denver Snuffer), aren't they?

You can answer that for yourself in your own life. As I said before on this thread, this discussion has nothing to do with the gospel, or at least not until we broached the subject of the sermon on the mount, which was authored by Jesus Christ and not Denver or Jared.

And do you personally support Jared's GS proposal, the lots document, or some other proposal.

As I just previously mentioned, I did not participate in that movement, but Jared is a friend and I certainly believe in the 11th article of faith, so I love him whatever his beliefs are.

Thank you.

And please reply.

[inquirringmind]

Is that really a false teaching?

I believe that any teaching, which came directly from Jesus Christ's own lips, including the sermon on the mount is true. Therefore, how could it be false? Therefore, why would anyone contend against it, unless they simply do not believe Jesus or anyone including Jared who promoted the sermon on the mount word for word?

Maybe you misunderstood the question, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here (as I usually try to give Jared, and as I want others to give me.)

What I asked you wasn't whether the sermon on the mount was a false teaching, but whether the teaching that we can't fully reach perfection in this life is a false teaching.

Whether you know it or not, Mr. Snuffer said that today's society makes it impossible to perfectly keep the sermon on the mount today, on his blog, and I think I could find the direct quote if you like.

I'm asking you if you believe that's a false teaching.

And I'm also asking you not to take my words out of context, or put words in my mouth.

Jared doesn't like that, I don't like it, and I'm sure you don't like it when people do that to you.

So if you fully believe in Christ's words in the sermon on the mount, please try to treat me as you would like me to treat you.

Thank you.

[marc]

Is that really a false teaching?
.
I believe that any teaching, which came directly from Jesus Christ's own lips, including the sermon on the mount is true. Therefore, how could it be false? Therefore, why would anyone contend against it, unless they simply do not believe Jesus or anyone including Jared who promoted the sermon on the mount word for word?

I believe that any teaching, which came directly from Jesus Christ's own lips, including the sermon on the mount is true. Therefore, how could it be false? Therefore, why would anyone contend against it, unless they simply do not believe Jesus or anyone including Jared who promoted the sermon on the mount word for word?

Maybe you misunderstood the question, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here (as I usually try to give Jared, and as I want others to give me.)

What I asked you wasn't whether the sermon on the mount was a false teaching, but whether the teaching that we can't fully reach perfection in this life is a false teaching.

Whether you know it or not, Mr. Snuffer said that today's society makes it impossible to perfectly keep the sermon on the mount today, on his blog, and I think I could find the direct quote if you like.

I'm asking you if you believe that's a false teaching.

And I'm also asking you not to take my words out of context, or put words in my mouth.

Jared doesn't like that, I don't, and I'm sure you don't.

So if you fully believe in Christ's words in the sermon on the mount, please try to treat me as you would like me to treat you.

Thank you.

My apologies. I did misunderstand the question.

What I asked you wasn't whether the sermon on the mount was a false teaching, but whether the teaching that we can't fully reach perfection in this life is a false teaching.

Worded this way makes more sense to me. I do not know if that is a false teaching, but I personally believe a person can be perfect in this life. The Greek word perfection means complete. And there have been men made complete.

9 ¶ These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

It appears on the surface that Noah was made perfect in this life.

I think there are more examples, but I'm heading out the door. I'll leave you with this to ponder:

D&C 76:68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

[inquirringmind]

Thank you marc.

But doesn't the passage from D&C 76 relate to a vision of the afterlife?

So wouldn't the just men made perfect be resurrected saints?

(Or the spirits of such saints waiting to receive glorified bodies at the resurrection of the just?)

If I recall, there's a New Testament passge that speaks of the spirits of just men made perfect being in the bleaches while we run our race here on Earth, isn't there?

But that doesn't relate to whether it's really possible to be perfect here in the flesh, does it?

And as far as Noah being perfect "in his generations," couldn't that mean he was relatively perfect in a sinful age?

And isn't it likely that any other passages that seem to speak of mortals being perfect are also speaking relatively, not absolutely?

How else would you explain these passages (from your own "restoration edition" of scripture)?

If they sin against you — for there is no man who does not sin...

2Chron. 2:18 (RE.)

Give ear to my supplications. In your faithfulness answer me and in your righteousness. And do not enter into judgment with your servant, for in your sight shall no man living be justified...

Psalm 143:1 (RE.)

[The remnant movement "restoration edition of scripture"]: http://scriptures.info

P.S. I'm sorry that you initially misunderstood my question, but you did accuse me of contending against the words of Christ because you misunderstood that question, didn't you?

And if you did that without any personal revelation, or supernatural insight into my heart, weren't you judging me?

Please reply.

(And thanks again.)

[marc]

Thank you marc.

But doesn't the passage from D&C 76 relate to a vision of the afterlife?



So wouldn't the just men made perfect be resurrected saints?

(Or the spirits of such saints waiting to receive glorified bodies at the resurrection of the just?)

If I recall, there's a New Testament passge that speaks of the spirits of just men made perfect being in the bleaches while we run our race here on Earth, isn't there?

But that doesn't relate to whether it's really possible to be perfect here in the flesh, does it?

And as far as Noah being perfect "in his generations," couldn't that mean he was relatively perfect in a sinful age?

And isn't it likely that any other passages that seem to speak of mortals being perfect are also speaking relatively, not absolutely?

How else would you explain these passages (from your own "restoration edition" of scripture)?

If they sin against you — for there is no man who does not sin...

2Chron. 2:18 (RE.)

Give ear to my supplications. In your faithfulness answer me and in your righteousness. And do not enter into judgment with your servant, for in your sight shall no man living be justified...

Psalm 143:1 (RE.)

[The remnant movement "restoration edition of scripture"]: http://scriptures.info

P.S. I'm sorry that you initially misunderstood my question, but you did accuse me of contending against the words of Christ because you misunderstood that question, didn't you?

And if you did that without any personal revelation, or supernatural insight into my heart, weren't you judging me?

Please reply.

(And thanks again.)

I did not at all accuse you of contending. Otherwise, I would have said something like, Inquringmind, you are contending against the word of Christ. But I did not say that or anything like it. What I did was ask a question:

I believe that any teaching, which came directly from Jesus Christ's own lips, including the sermon on the mount is true. Therefore, how could it be false? Therefore, why would anyone contend against it, unless they simply do not believe Jesus or anyone including Jared who promoted the sermon on the mount word for word?

I was asking a general question. I have not kept track of all your posts so I have no clue what you have or have not been contending about. Therefore I was not judging you. Now as for D&C 76, I do recall it being a vision of the different glories, so those people being made perfect are they who inherit the celestial kingdom. But I also did not suggest that they are they who are made perfect in this life. I only offered it for you to ponder. As for Noah, I only quoted what the scripture says and you can decide for yourself what it means. I have no opinion at this time about being made perfect in this life, but I I will quote something Amonhi mentioned before and you can decide for yourself because again, I have no opinion on the matter at this time:

I don't think we ever get to a place where we don't need the atonement, until we are perfect in Christ, and obviously we shouldn't equate a C&E with perfection. Even Amonhi has admitted that there is still progression after you've had a C&E event. Many of our latter-day prophets have confirmed that perfection in this life is impossible, and many have stated that our progression towards perfection will continue in the life to come. The atonement of Christ makes it possible just to even have the chance at reaching perfection AND it gives us the enabling power of Christ to transform into a perfect person, just like he is.

We can become perfect in this life, while still mortal....

Some scriptures specifically ONLY apply to the perfected. In this Heb. 6:1-6, Paul was talking to those who had not yet become perfect, but needed to work to that end. In another instance, he addressed another group who was already perfect saying,

Let us therefore, as many as BE perfect,... - Philip. 3:15

This group had progressed beyond the previous group whom he encouraged to "go on to perfection". And to another group he asked...

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that ARE perfect: - 1Cor. 2:6

We have now shown two instances where Paul is speaking of a group which has not only met the criteria listed in Heb. 6:1-6, but has in fact gone on and become perfect. Perfection in mortality is achievable.

Aside from these people whom Paul says are perfect, there are many others some of which are listed in scriptures:

Gen. 6: 9
9 ¶ These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

2 Chr. 15: 17
17 But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

Job 2: 3
3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

D&C 107: 43
43 Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

Moses 8: 27
27 And thus Noah found agrace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

And, regarding those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, ie made their calling and election sure, one of the blessings the Lord tells us about these people is that while they are not yet resurrected, they ARE just men who ARE made perfect.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. - D&C 76:69

As compared with those of the Terrestrial kingdom who are honorable Men deceived by the craftiness of men.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

If you notice in the endowment, we see that Adam progresses from Kingdom to kingdom while in this life. The lights change representing each kingdom of glory and a statement is made about entering into a new kingdom. In the live sessions like in the Salt Lake Temple, you actually get up out of your seat and walk to a different room. This symbolizes that we progress through the kingdoms, just like Adam and Eve did as we progress in life.

The question to ask is what is required to be perfect. Jesus told us exactly what makes God perfect and what we must do to be perfect like God. If you know what he said to do, then you will know how to fulfill his commandment to "be ye therefore perfect like your father in heaven is perfect." Anyone who teaches perfection is beyond our reach here and now is the blind leading the blind. (Fact, not criticism.)

I have not yet, that I can remember, shown how to become perfect, but will do so now.

43 ¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. - Matt. 5

Now just because I quoted Amonhi, it doesn't mean I agree with things he says or believe or do not believe things he has said. I'm simply saving myself the time of finding those passages. Again, the Bible says that Noah was perfect in his generations. I am not going to make any interpretations. I have no opinions or beliefs in this matter to offer. I'm simply supplying information for you to make your own decisions. But will reemphasize these scriptures for you to consider and make up your own mind:

Job 2:3And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

D&C 107:43 Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

Again referring to Noah:

Moses 8:27 And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Job was still in the flesh when the Lord declared him to be perfect. So there's that. Oh, by the way, I do not use the restoration edition of the scriptures, which you implied. I use the standard works published by the church. I hope I answered your questions thoroughly enough for you to make your own decisions.

[inquirringmind]

You didn't mean to imply that I was contending against the words of Christ, and you have no personal opinion on whether it's possible to be perfect this side of the grave?

[marc]

You didn't mean to imply that I was contending against the words of Christ, and you have no no personal opinion on whether it's possible to be perfect this side of the grave?

I did not mean to imply that you, inquiringmind, were contending against the words of Christ. I already made it clear that I was asking a general question. Secondly, regarding quoting Amonhi, what I did say was:

...I am not going to make any interpretations. I have no opinions or beliefs in this matter to offer.

But as I quoted scripture, it seems clear to me that it is possible for man to be perfect this side of the grave, especially if God declared it about Job who had not yet died.

[inquirringmind]

Job was still in the flesh when the Lord declared him to be perfect.

I thought you had an opinion when you said this.

But if the word ™perfect" can be used in a relative as well as an absolute sense, God could have been speaking relatively when He called Job perfect, couldn't He?

In fact, didn't Jesus, when He was in the flesh, say that there was a sense in which only God is good?

And Jesus said unto him, Why do you call me good? None is good but one; that is, God.

http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/mark/5.23#23t

So if only God (or even only "a god," if you prefer) is "good," how could a mere mortal be "perfect" (in the absolute sense of the word)?

[marc]

Job was still in the flesh when the Lord declared him to be perfect.

I thought you had an opinion here.

It wasn't an opinion. It was an observation about a fact. There is a difference. An opinion is a view based on something that isn't a fact. But it is a fact that in the Bible, God said Job was perfect.

But if the word ™perfect" can be used in a relative as well as an absolute sense, God could have been speaking relatively when He called Job perfect, couldn't He?

I believe I already said in our discussion that the Greek translation of perfect is Telios, which means complete. In Hebrew, the translation of perfect means whole or complete or finished. So what do you think God meant when He said Job was perfect if not whole or complete?

In fact, didn't Jesus, when He was in the flesh, say that there was a sense in which only God is good?

And Jesus said unto him, Why do you call me good? None is good but one; that is, God.

http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/mark/5.23#23t

So if only God (or even only "a god," if you prefer) is "good," how could a mere mortal be perfect (in the absolute sense of the word)?

Are you suggesting that "good" and "perfect" mean the same thing? Or are you jumping to conclusions based on preconceived notions?

[Jesef]

Ugh. Why not just start a PM session guys?

[marc]

Ugh. Why not just start a PM session guys?

Why not just ignore us? The internet is vast. I don't feel right about ignoring inquiringmind. If he asks me publicly, then I will be kind enough to answer him.

[inquirringmind]

I'm suggesting that "good" is something less than "perfect," and I think any dictionary of the Engine language would bear me out.

So it would seem to follow that if only God is good (as Jesus said), than only God is perfect, don't you think?

[marc]

I'm suggesting that "good" is something less than "perfect," and I think any dictionary of the Engine language would beat me out.

And it would seem to follow that if only God is good (as Jesus said), than only God is perfect, don't you think?

I think that if I were you, I would study those passages by researching the language and context intended in order to arrive at the truth of the matter.

[Jesef]

Fair enough, I retract. None of my business. He can be relentless, though, as you've discovered.

Inquiringmind, you should calm down and go meditate or something - whatever calms you, man. "Perfectionism" leads to depression. Peace.

[marc]

Fair enough, I retract. None of my business. He can be relentless, though, as you've discovered.

Yes, he is relentless and tests my patience. But I love him and so I will endure all his questions the best way I can and continue to encourage him to find his own answers by the Spirit rather than rely on me or anyone else for understanding.

[inquirringmind]

"Perfectionism" leads to depression.

I think perfectionism can lead to dispair, which is a sin, but I agree with marc that perfection is something we should strive for.

Especially if we're talking about perfection in the sense of completeness, and relative to things of the heart (like mercy, and love, and kindness--and especially humility.)

But there's a difference between a complete , fully formed, perfectly healthy six year old--and a completely developed athelet in his prime.

So I believe the word "perfect" can be used in both a relative sense, and an absolute sense.

I don't believe that job, in the flesh, was perfect in the same sense God is--and if he had been he wouldn't have needed a Savior, and he wouldn't have learned anything from his trials.

But I believe that he did need a Savior, and that he probably needed his trials (just as we need ours):

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into many afflictions, knowing that the trying of your faith works patience; but let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and entire...Take, my brethren, the prophets who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy who endure. You have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord, that the Lord is full of pity and of tender mercy.

http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/1jacob/1.21#21

If Job had been perfect, in the absolute sense of the word, when God and Satan were discussing him, I don't believe there would have been any need for his trials, anything for him to learn from them, or any need for Christ to die for him (set him an example, or show him the way.)

And I agree with Mr. Snuffer here (emphasis mine.)

I’ve said that there is almost nothing about us that can become perfect in this life. The only thing that can approach perfection, however, is our intent. We can mean to follow God at all times. Even if the dilemmas of life make it impossible to actually do so, we can still intend to follow Him. We may not even know if what we are doing pleases Him, or how to resolve conflicting interests or commandments. We may even be making a mistake, but if our intent is right, our hearts may be pure.
This is also one of the reasons we cannot judge another. They may be weak, foolish and error prone, but if they intend to be doing the right then God alone can measure their heart and decide whether they are approved. It would take a God to know if the person’s life, training, understanding and intent are pure before Him. I suspect there are those we look upon as deluded and even evil but the Lord views them with compassion and understanding. He may find their hearts to be perfect even before the heart of the proud who claim they have and follow the truth. Though a person may misunderstand a great deal, still if they have love for their fellow man, relieve suffering where they can, give patience to the foolish and water to the thirsty, they may be perfect before God. (Luke 18: 9-14.)

https://denversnuffer.com/2010/10/3-nephi-12-8/

Do you agree with this marc?

[marc]

I'll have to give it more thought.

[inquirringmind]

I'll have to give it more thought.

Please let me know what you think after you've given it some more thought.

And thank you.

[Jesef]

Perfect & Perfected mean different things, I believe. Food for thought that I hope is relevant.

[inquirringmind]

Perfect & Perfected mean different things, I believe. Food for thought that I hope is relevant.

Thank you Jesef.

I see how that could be relevant, and I've give it some thought, but I'm not sure I see the difference.

If something were perfected in the past, it would be perfect today, and there'd be no room for improvement.

If it's not perfect today, and there is room for improvement, it wasn't perfected in the past.

Unless I'm missing something, it's the same word, with the same meaning, and the only difference is in the tense.

How is that relevant?

I've given it some thought, and I still seem to be missing the relevant difference you see.

Could you help me out and elaborate a little?

[Jesef]

Good points, what I meant to say is I think there is a difference between becoming perfect, as in the flawless/sinless, which I think only comes after, in the next realm, & being “perfected in Christ” which is being cloaked by the Grace of Christ, where your intentions are pure, but your execution is still human, but you are instantly forgiven - something like that - it’s entering into the rest of the Lord while you’re still mortal. You KNOW you’re saved/redeemed & the Love of God shields your soul & heart. But you are still human/mortal/weak & subject to the body/flesh but in a state of Divine Grace/Love.

[inquirringmind]

Interesting.

Thank you.