LDS Freedom Forum

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 5th, 2018, 11:14 am

David13 wrote: ↑July 5th, 2018, 8:00 am

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 4th, 2018, 10:05 pm Your friend quite frankly doesn't really want to stop.

I'm reminded of serving a mission and the drunks would come up to us with a handshake and a box of wine in the other. They would complain and say "brother, I want to stop drinking, I don't like being drunk all the time-help me to stop drinking", we would proceed to tell them to hand us the box of wine and we'll pour it out. Oh the wailing, No, No, No don't do that I need my wine-they you really don't want to stop drinking.

To stop an addiction is really easy-you just stop. If it is porn you ditch the internet, if it is alcohol you don't go to the store.

He is weak-willed and weak-minded and for whatever reason he enjoys the sin of the addiction more than repentance. Until he recognizes his awful state and is brought to his knees in repentance, to where the sin of his addiction and the costs of that sin are profoundly make clear to him, he will not quit.

He is tired of the fight b/c he doesn't want to change. The reason why he walks around with guilt and self-loathing is because he knows that he actually enjoys the sin but he knows that he shouldn't enjoy the sin and therefore he hates himself and has guilt b/c he really does like whatever addiction he has.

You can't fight an addiction, "fighting" an addiction is pointless, foolhardy and leads to nowhere.

What you do is you change yourself and the first step in that change is to be completely honest with yourself and part of that honesty is to frankly admit that one enjoys the sins and then learning to change one's very nature through Christ to where you no longer enjoy the sin.

I guarantee you as soon as he no longer enjoys the sin-it will go away.

To quit an addiction-or what it really is is a repetitive, repeatable pattern of one particular type of sinful behavior-two things MUST happen.
1) The individual must make the decision to stop and change who they are-i.e. the very nature of who they are.
2) The individual must receive a large enough pyschic blow (i.e. emotional/spiritual/mental) blow that spurs them to do #1
The third option sometimes happens
3) People gradually change over time to where they mature out/grow out/spiritually grow up to where over time what they were once addicted to become less and less a part of who they are.

The problem is that they cannot do that on their own. The proof of that is that ... they haven't done it on their own.

Thus, they need a program. And the will to accept and follow the program.
dc

I agree they can't do it on their own-without Christ's atoning blood it is impossible to repent. I agree some people need a 12 step program to help them understand Christ's atoning blood; but it's not the "program" that changes them-it is themselves learning to repent and rely upon Christ.

Which, hopefully they can do with the help of some program, church run, or not, 12 step, or other. Because they cannot do it on their own.
dc

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 5th, 2018, 11:29 am

The Airbender wrote: ↑July 4th, 2018, 11:12 pm

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 4th, 2018, 10:05 pm Your friend quite frankly doesn't really want to stop.

I'm reminded of serving a mission and the drunks would come up to us with a handshake and a box of wine in the other. They would complain and say "brother, I want to stop drinking, I don't like being drunk all the time-help me to stop drinking", we would proceed to tell them to hand us the box of wine and we'll pour it out. Oh the wailing, No, No, No don't do that I need my wine-they you really don't want to stop drinking.

To stop an addiction is really easy-you just stop. If it is porn you ditch the internet, if it is alcohol you don't go to the store.

He is weak-willed and weak-minded and for whatever reason he enjoys the sin of the addiction more than repentance. Until he recognizes his awful state and is brought to his knees in repentance, to where the sin of his addiction and the costs of that sin are profoundly make clear to him, he will not quit.

He is tired of the fight b/c he doesn't want to change. The reason why he walks around with guilt and self-loathing is because he knows that he actually enjoys the sin but he knows that he shouldn't enjoy the sin and therefore he hates himself and has guilt b/c he really does like whatever addiction he has.

You can't fight an addiction, "fighting" an addiction is pointless, foolhardy and leads to nowhere.

What you do is you change yourself and the first step in that change is to be completely honest with yourself and part of that honesty is to frankly admit that one enjoys the sins and then learning to change one's very nature through Christ to where you no longer enjoy the sin.

I guarantee you as soon as he no longer enjoys the sin-it will go away.

To quit an addiction-or what it really is is a repetitive, repeatable pattern of one particular type of sinful behavior-two things MUST happen.
1) The individual must make the decision to stop and change who they are-i.e. the very nature of who they are.
2) The individual must receive a large enough pyschic blow (i.e. emotional/spiritual/mental) blow that spurs them to do #1
The third option sometimes happens
3) People gradually change over time to where they mature out/grow out/spiritually grow up to where over time what they were once addicted to become less and less a part of who they are.

Um, I take it you have never had a true addiction? Your post is very insensitive. Just stop. Yeah, I'm sure every addict ever has been told that.

"Insensitive" does not make what I said false. In fact, I believe too much "sensitivity" lulls people into a false sense of security.

I will say it again, I am not inexperienced in this area or facet of life.

I can easily say the same about you, "you've never had a true addiction that you've overcome". See that was easy for me to do-but that doesn't make what I said about you true. Just like you know absolutely nothing about me, my struggles, what I've dealt with or overcome through Christ in my life.

I was listening to James 1 this morning some good stuff that I think applies:
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

When we have lust in our hearts, we end up being tempted. If I lust for the things of this world, when I pass by a store I might be tempted to steal. If I dwell on that thought to steal, then do I start to commit sin.
If I remove the lust of the things of this world in my heart then the temptation is removed.

Change the inner man, change the actual heart from lusting after xyz sin and then the addiction goes away. That is the real key and the real challenge to overcoming addiction, not to stop the physical act, but to change the heart and once the heart is changed then the physical act will stop.

After I made my first post, I thought about it awhile. I agree with you. One who continues in an addiction does so because he or she does not have sufficient motivation to stop.

That being said, I believe there are things that need removed from our bodies and spirits before that kind of motivation can be given/received. You will never have success telling an addict to "just stop." It won't work because the addict is incapable of stopping. That is the definition of addiction. The addict needs outside help. I will submit that if someone can stop doing something without outside help, that someone was never addicted.

I agree that a certain strong trauma or emotional event can provide that outside assistance and "open" the person up to the healing needed. But in addiction there are certain conditions preventing the person from receiving or giving the emotional necessities of life, and so they resort to addiction.

I also believe there are ALWAYS dark entities involved in addiction. I can't prove it. It is my belief.

I am sorry for being short with you.

Just an observation.

People can cast stones at the addicted very readily. But typically they have no clue. I was good friends once with a certain bishop, we had just attended a meeting where people were talking about their with depression. We were so sure that it was just absurd to be depressed cause neither of us had experienced such. It had to be in their head. A couple days later God allowed me to see what it felt like and it stayed with me for a short period and it was a very foreign experience. I never again had such dismissive thoughts about what people struggle with when it comes to depression. I don't have a background of depression in my family. They have always been faith filled and upbeat (not to say depressed people are not faith filled).

This person that is being discussed on this thread may or may not have been set up with a propensity toward addictions in this life via his parents or ancestors. Nobody has the knowledge to counsel him on how easy or hard it would be to throw off. Its just arrogant to tell someone to get over something when you don't know how they got there.

The Airbender wrote: ↑July 5th, 2018, 10:24 pm

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 5th, 2018, 11:29 am

The Airbender wrote: ↑July 4th, 2018, 11:12 pm

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 4th, 2018, 10:05 pm Your friend quite frankly doesn't really want to stop.

I'm reminded of serving a mission and the drunks would come up to us with a handshake and a box of wine in the other. They would complain and say "brother, I want to stop drinking, I don't like being drunk all the time-help me to stop drinking", we would proceed to tell them to hand us the box of wine and we'll pour it out. Oh the wailing, No, No, No don't do that I need my wine-they you really don't want to stop drinking.

To stop an addiction is really easy-you just stop. If it is porn you ditch the internet, if it is alcohol you don't go to the store.

He is weak-willed and weak-minded and for whatever reason he enjoys the sin of the addiction more than repentance. Until he recognizes his awful state and is brought to his knees in repentance, to where the sin of his addiction and the costs of that sin are profoundly make clear to him, he will not quit.

He is tired of the fight b/c he doesn't want to change. The reason why he walks around with guilt and self-loathing is because he knows that he actually enjoys the sin but he knows that he shouldn't enjoy the sin and therefore he hates himself and has guilt b/c he really does like whatever addiction he has.

You can't fight an addiction, "fighting" an addiction is pointless, foolhardy and leads to nowhere.

What you do is you change yourself and the first step in that change is to be completely honest with yourself and part of that honesty is to frankly admit that one enjoys the sins and then learning to change one's very nature through Christ to where you no longer enjoy the sin.

I guarantee you as soon as he no longer enjoys the sin-it will go away.

To quit an addiction-or what it really is is a repetitive, repeatable pattern of one particular type of sinful behavior-two things MUST happen.
1) The individual must make the decision to stop and change who they are-i.e. the very nature of who they are.
2) The individual must receive a large enough pyschic blow (i.e. emotional/spiritual/mental) blow that spurs them to do #1
The third option sometimes happens
3) People gradually change over time to where they mature out/grow out/spiritually grow up to where over time what they were once addicted to become less and less a part of who they are.

Um, I take it you have never had a true addiction? Your post is very insensitive. Just stop. Yeah, I'm sure every addict ever has been told that.

"Insensitive" does not make what I said false. In fact, I believe too much "sensitivity" lulls people into a false sense of security.

I will say it again, I am not inexperienced in this area or facet of life.

I can easily say the same about you, "you've never had a true addiction that you've overcome". See that was easy for me to do-but that doesn't make what I said about you true. Just like you know absolutely nothing about me, my struggles, what I've dealt with or overcome through Christ in my life.

I was listening to James 1 this morning some good stuff that I think applies:
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

When we have lust in our hearts, we end up being tempted. If I lust for the things of this world, when I pass by a store I might be tempted to steal. If I dwell on that thought to steal, then do I start to commit sin.
If I remove the lust of the things of this world in my heart then the temptation is removed.

Change the inner man, change the actual heart from lusting after xyz sin and then the addiction goes away. That is the real key and the real challenge to overcoming addiction, not to stop the physical act, but to change the heart and once the heart is changed then the physical act will stop.

After I made my first post, I thought about it awhile. I agree with you. One who continues in an addiction does so because he or she does not have sufficient motivation to stop.

That being said, I believe there are things that need removed from our bodies and spirits before that kind of motivation can be given/received. You will never have success telling an addict to "just stop." It won't work because the addict is incapable of stopping. That is the definition of addiction. The addict needs outside help. I will submit that if someone can stop doing something without outside help, that someone was never addicted.

I agree that a certain strong trauma or emotional event can provide that outside assistance and "open" the person up to the healing needed. But in addiction there are certain conditions preventing the person from receiving or giving the emotional necessities of life, and so they resort to addiction.

I also believe there are ALWAYS dark entities involved in addiction. I can't prove it. It is my belief.

I am sorry for being short with you.

I agree with most of what you say. I don't agree that the addict is incapable of stopping-I believe that gives way, way too much power to the substance of sin and not enough power to the individual themselves and to Christ. And besides, in the end the only person who can stop it is the person themselves. They have free agency, what are you going to do bind them down, force them to do xyz.

If someone wants to be on a path of self-destruction they will do it, regardless of what you or I say. The part that is incomprehensible is why would someone do that . . .well why would someone commit murder, or rape or any other number of sins. It's part of this life, free agency. I completely agree that dark entities are involved.

I guess I'm just very old school. Human nature has not changed for thousands of years. What did people do 50 years ago before there were "12 Step Programs" and the like. People conquered addictions moved on with their lives, or they didn't. The same thing happens today. 12 Step Program are simply a modern day "technique" but there is nothing magical about them.

In fact if anything I believe they do more harm than good b/c people become convinced oh all I need to do is go to a 12 step program and I'll get "cured" or whatever other psychobabble. When in reality, it's very, very simple, the answers are found in the Scriptures. They tell us exactly what to do . . . IMO 12 step programs and the like are simply an excuse for an unbelieving world that hopes for magical cures and doesn't have enough faith in Scriptures to tell us how to live our lives properly.

As someone who had what would be classified as an "addiction" (high-functioning) for decades this guy is pretty dead on:
http://www.thecleanslate.org/faqs/

Just for a little more insight did you know oreos are as addictive as cocaine??
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalt ... ec8c28ab00

as with everything
Jesus Christ IS the only way.
no matter what weakness you have or how sinful you are
or how perfect you are,
we are not going to make it without Jesus Christ and the atonement
He made for our sins.

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ether 12

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness.
I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

so many people at this time, are being called by the Lord
to TOTALLY trust and rely, and put ALL our faith in Him.

He is the ONLY WAY.

John 14
6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Does your friend pray that God will help him to overcome his addiction?
If so, he is doing it the wrong way around.
Many approach it that way and fail. Why? Because we are putting ourselves first and relegating God to the support act. We are saying we are going to break the addiction ourselves, but we could do with some input from the Almighty when and if required.

Instead, we need to acknowledge our utter hopelessness. We need to go before God and admit this thing has defeated us and we do not have power to overcome it. We need to place it before God and ask him to take it from us. Then, and only then, when we are humble and in a mindset where we honour God as the Almighty, the Most High God, creator and sustainer of all that is or ever was or will be, we can offer God the few crumbs we can muster in order to contribute in some small way to his inevitable conquest of our addiction.
We acknowledge that he doesn't need our help, but we offer it in gratitude for what he is going to do. He will accept our offering, however miniscule, and take on our Goliath and slay it before our very eyes and in our vey soul.

When we approach it this way around, God will "fight our battles" and "give us the victory", as is very clearly taught in the scriptures.

I was just thinking about my problem I guess you could say has to do with food addiction. I have been eating right for weeks and recently broke down. And then remembered what I had thought that set me up for so much success.

It was studying the law of attraction which means if you feel negative then you will attract negative results. And I realized that when it comes to eating healthy most of the time when I think about it, no matter what I choose to do about it, I have a negative feeling. So instead I decided I won't think anything about eating right unless I can pair it with a good feeling. And then, it started happening. I decided it felt good to think that I am doing good enough. And then it felt good to think about eating salads for lunch. And then it felt good when I wanted a treat to make a spinach smoothie with some juice to make a sweet. And then it felt good to do things where I am standing more than sitting.

Then I realized this last time I messed up, I had fallen into negative feelings again, focusing on how ugly I was and that made me feel bad and before I know it I am eating ice cream to feel better.

So, I think our feelings have a lot of power and if you focus on improving your life but it still feels bad, you will still end up with bad results.

Good thoughts + good feelings = success

Good thoughts + bad feelings = mixed results
Bad thoughts + good feelings = mixed results

Bad thoughts + bad feelings = bad results

I was also thinking today about sex addiction and how we learn to associate feelings and sexuality. I liken it to learning to ride a bike. Before you teach your kid to ride a bike, do you sit them down and show them slide shows off horrible bike accidents and of what not to do when riding a bike because of how horrible an accident can be?

That is truamatizing and no one will want to get on a bike after that. Yet that is what we do when we teach about chastity.

It would be better to focus on how amazing riding a bike will be, how it will increase freedom, and by the way, wear a helmet for safety. (Or keep the expression within proper bounds).

If we can associate sexuality with good feelings and true guidelines, it may help stave off sexual addictions.

This is one of the best overcoming of addictions stories I have ever read:

By, Solomon Kimball, Heber C Kimballs son:

"Arizona's rainy season generally occurs during the summer months, and after the water has subsided, the farmers in that section of country usually spend a few days repairing dams that have been damaged by the floods. One hot summer day I was hauling rocks for the Mesa dam, on the Salt river. The wind was blowing quite hard at the time. The rushing of the waters over the dam, mingling its voice with the moaning and sighing of the wind, almost makes one believe that he hears beautiful music; or human beings crying, singing or talking. I had just driven my team into the river with a load of rocks, and unloaded them, and was in the act of taking a chew of tobacco, when, to my great surprise, I heard a voice saying, "Don't chew any more tobacco." I looked around to see if I could see anyone close by, and then drove away for another load. While doing so I felt like a big simpleton, for allowing myself to believe such apparent nonsense as hearing a voice repeat those words, since there was no one within a hundred yards of me. I gathered up another load, and drove back to the same place, and threw it onto the brush, on the dam. I had come to the conclusion that the Arizona wind and water had perpetrated a huge joke on me. My tobacco was a great comfort to me, and I felt that I did not wish to be deceived by the elements of that hot and sultry country. I then looked all around again, to make sure that no one was near, and just as I was biting off a chew, I heard the same voice, only in a little louder tone, saying, "Never take another chew of tobacco as long as you live." I hardly knew what to think, but said to myself, it is not the wind and water this time, but really and truly a human voice. In years gone by I was not a man to believe such things, and had been severe in my criticism of others in relation to such matters ; but now I had something to think about, sure enough. I continued my work until noon, at the same time discussing this subject in my mind. I said nothing to the boys about it during the dinner hour, although they could see that I was considerably agitated over something. I knew that by telling them about it, it would make me the laughing stock of the whole crowd. In the afternoon it was hard for me to keep from taking a chew, and there was quite a strong influence working with me. It was bringing all kinds of arguments to bear upon this subject, and trying to convince me that it was my imagination pure and simple, and that the wind and water combined, had a good deal to do with it. There were other things that made it hard for me to overcome this habit. I had an appetite for liquor, but had not touched it for about two years, and was determined never to taste it again. Under these circumstances I felt that it would be more than I could bear, to put my old friend tobacco behind me. I understood what a curse the liquor habit is, and felt that if I could overcome it, I would be doing very well. I believed that by using tobacco it would help me to overcome the greater evil. When I had driven my team into the river with my last load, that afternoon, I had convinced myself that I had heard no voice at all, and had also made up my mind to take a chew of tobacco, if it were the last act of my life. The gnawing, craving, and hankering after it, was almost driving me crazy. I then took it out of my pocket for the third time, and just as I was going to take a chew, I heard the same voice again, plainly and distinctly, saying, "Solomon, never touch tobacco again as long as you live." I made up my mind to do as I was told, let the consequences be what they may. I said nothing about it to anyone, except my wife, who was a good Latter-day Saint. From that time on, the craving for tobacco gradually left me, but the appetite for liquor began to get in its deadly work, just at a time when I needed help and encouragement the most. It seemed to me like the powers of darkness had begun to gather around me, thicker than ever. For two years I had made the effort of my life to overcome my weakness, and live the life of a Latter-day Saint, but it seemed like fate was against me. I commenced to fast and pray, and humble myself mightily before the Lord, crying unto him day and night, to deliver me from this cursed viper. I had to use all the energy and will power that I could possibly muster, in order to resist the terrible disease that was getting the upper hand of me. There was no Keeley cure in those days, and we were left to ourselves, unless we could get help from above. I would dream of drinking it nights, and thirst for it in the daytime. One evening, after fasting for twenty-four hours, and spending a goodly portion of that time in praying to the Lord for help, his Spirit whispered these words to me, "If you will observe the Word of Wisdom, the liquor habit will leave you.'* This was like a clap of thunder out of a clear sky. I had been drinking a good deal of strong tea and coffee up to this time, and it seemed so strange afterwards, that I should overlook so important a revelation as was the Word of Wisdom upon this subject. If I had obeyed its teachings when I left Pinal and joined the Mesa ward, two years before, what a blessing it would have been to me in many respects ! I obeyed the instructions received, and from that day until the present time, I have never drunk a drop of intoxicants of any description, neither have I used tea, coffee, or tobacco. In less than two months I could master all of these habits pretty well, and in less than a year, I had no desire for them whatever. Sometimes I drank a cup or two of choc- olate, but soon found out that it, too, belongs to the same family, and I have never drunk it since. By using a good deal of tea, coffee and tobacco, and drinking the Salt River water during the hot summer months, Bright's disease took hold of my system. It had gotten such a hold that I was compelled to leave Arizona in order to save my life. The physician who has been treating me for this malady for the last seven years, told me that I would have been dead years ago, had it not been for my temperate habits. This doctor, who is a non-"Mormon," refuses to treat his patients for kidney troubles, unless they keep the Word of Wisdom, not even allowing them to eat meat. By keeping the Word of Wisdom my life has been spared probably twelve or fifteen years, which has enabled me to support and educate my family, I have also lived to take a prominent part in my father's family affairs, performing a good mission in that direction. It has given me an opportunity to search the Scriptures, and get a fair understanding of the principles of "Mormonism." And last, but not least, it has made me more charitable towards God's children who are weighed down with the weakness of the flesh, and who need a helping hand above all others. I have heard mothers blaming their parents, or husbands, or some- body else, for the liquor habit that has been fastened upon their children. They are wrong in doing this, as they themselves are to blame to a great extent. They are, perhaps, continually setting before their children things to eat and drink that are creating these appetites. If parents will bring their children up to keep the Word of Wis- dom, and set the example themselves, they will never be bothered over such things. Meat is a stimulant, and to eat it, especially during the summer months, will create an appetite for liquor, just the same as tea, coffee or tobacco will. On account of my false pride, I have kept my personal experience in relation to such matters a secret until now, but feel that I would be doing wrong if I did so any longer. There are thousands of good people who are victims of this disease, and are being continually tormented by these unnatural appetites. The Word of Wisdom is a perfect cure for them, and it is as free as the air that we breathe.

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 6th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Just for a little more insight did you know oreos are as addictive as cocaine??
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalt ... ec8c28ab00

If that is true, then I am not addicted, I can stop any time I want. Mmm.. Oreos....

I have a strong conviction that addiction is the out growth of self centeredness. The remedy is to serve others, value others, seek to bring light and truth into their lives. That service usually begins at home... then it goes to the house of God. Church service counts, but to me, that is the hardest place of the three to serve in a fulfilling way.