Bullying and Cliques in wards

[Ferrisbueller]

Do you see these problems in every ward? Belittling and bullying by leaders any where from Sunday school to young women's towards their councilors? The same 8 "boat" families keeping to themselves. The 60year old high priest that is active in his same ward for 40 years but knows nothing abt anybody than the 4 families he says hi to before sacrament meeting. Or leadership in bishopric and stake presidents that don't at least pretend to care about real concerns in wards expressed by their common members. How can the common toxicity in a ward be fixed. Seems like the toxic of a normal ward will never be cured. What can be done to fix the problem. Members believe but cringe coming to church sometimes.

[setyourselffree]

I've lived in about 12 wards and have never seen anything close to what you are describing.

[Dave62]

Lived in eight units, both wards big and small, and branches big and small. Never seen anything like this.

[David13]

I see it more as an original core group, the insiders, and newcomers, new members, Johnny Come Lately's, Invaders from CaliCommieFornia, etc.
It isn't just the church, it's anything, anywhere. Common human behavior.

Still what goes on is up to you, your personality and talents and abilities.
dc

[DesertWonderer2]

Do you see these problems in every ward? Belittling and bullying by leaders any where from Sunday school to young women's towards their councilors? The same 8 "boat" families keeping to themselves. The 60year old high priest that is active in his same ward for 40 years but knows nothing abt anybody than the 4 families he says hi to before sacrament meeting. Or leadership in bishopric and stake presidents that don't at least pretend to care about real concerns in wards expressed by their common members. How can the common toxicity in a ward be fixed. Seems like the toxic of a normal ward will never be cured. What can be done to fix the problem. Members believe but cringe coming to church sometimes.

A ward is what you make of it.

[Thinker]

Do you see these problems in every ward? Belittling and bullying by leaders any where from Sunday school to young women's towards their councilors? The same 8 "boat" families keeping to themselves. The 60year old high priest that is active in his same ward for 40 years but knows nothing abt anybody than the 4 families he says hi to before sacrament meeting. Or leadership in bishopric and stake presidents that don't at least pretend to care about real concerns in wards expressed by their common members. How can the common toxicity in a ward be fixed. Seems like the toxic of a normal ward will never be cured. What can be done to fix the problem. Members believe but cringe coming to church sometimes.

A ward is what you make of it.

Yeah, I think there’s truth from both perspectives.
It is what you make it, yet we cannot help but be affected by the herd mentalities & rude manners of others. For one thing I have seen and heard racism in wards - and no surprise it’s in our scripture & church history. I’ve also noticed - especially in UT wards where some families have lived there since their ancestor pioneers settled there - a tendency to socialize only with those they grew up with. Others have complained to me about this too. In one ward, before i-phones etc, when we had sacrament meeting last, first thing people did was mark their spots with scriptures etc to hold their family’s place in chapel benches so there was no where for visitors to sit except in the overflow. Great use of scriptures, right!?

It’s true that in many groups, there are cliques - excluding some. But I think of when we’ve had parties and couldn’t invite the whole ward so we had to exclude some. When I go to church, between meetings, there never seems to be enough time to say hi to everyone as I’d like to, and maybe as needed.

It’s important to realize we’re all human and can’t possibly maintain friendly weekly involved contact with all 400 people in a ward. Yet, we each ideally, are Christ-like in whoever we have the opportunity with which to interact, no matter who it is. And ideally, we keep praying to be instruments of God to reach out to those who need it.

[brianj]

When I joined the church I was 18 and in a stake without a YSA ward. Being in a family ward without a family, being at that age where I was supposed to be about to leave on a mission but with no plans to do so and no ability to do so, I was pretty much alone. After a few months I was assigned a home teacher whose idea of home teaching was to talk with me for two or three minutes during church. I didn't even rate a home visit.

A few months after I joined the church we moved to an adjacent stake with a YSA ward. I was very much treated like an outsider by most of that ward. Within a month of starting in that ward the Bishop called me into his office. I was so excited, looking forward to a calling, but his words are forever etched into my memory: "I want you on a mission before the end of the year." At the end of the year i would not have been a member of the church for a year so I wan't eligible to attend and his words came across as "I don't want you in my ward."

Since then, in every single ward I have been a member of, I have noticed that people show the normal human nature of having a few friends, focusing on those friends, and ignoring anybody else. One time I visited a ward and, at the end of sacrament meeting, they announced Melchizedek Priesthood meetings wouldn't happen that day as the men had been assigned to primary so the women could all attend Relief Society. Maybe it would have been different had I been there another week, but I spent three hours in that building and not one person spoke to me.

I've been to ward activities like dinners, sitting somewhere and marking my spot, but when I go get some food someone else takes my chair. They will even move my stuff off the table as if I wasn't even there! If they take my spot and then go get food, and I take the spot back when I get back to the table first, they then act like the offended and wronged party! And their friends side with them!

I know that a lot of you will immediately "blame the victim." You will tell me something along the lines of "If you want people to acknowledge your presence you need to approach them." But I call BS because I'm not one of you. I wasn't raised in a church where, in direct contradiction to the teachings of the church, people accept that they have no responsibility to welcome or fellowship new people unless they are called to do so or that new person approaches them. I come from a background of having attended churches where the membership looks for new people, welcomes, them, and befriends them.


In my experience, regardless of my own actions, I have observed that wards in places where there aren't a lot of members or there is a lot of turnover I find very friendly wards. In wards where there are very few people moving in or out, where social circles are well established, it can be extremely difficult or even impossible to become an accepted part of the ward.

[gigarath24]

When I joined the church I was 18 and in a stake without a YSA ward. Being in a family ward without a family, being at that age where I was supposed to be about to leave on a mission but with no plans to do so and no ability to do so, I was pretty much alone. After a few months I was assigned a home teacher whose idea of home teaching was to talk with me for two or three minutes during church. I didn't even rate a home visit.

A few months after I joined the church we moved to an adjacent stake with a YSA ward. I was very much treated like an outsider by most of that ward. Within a month of starting in that ward the Bishop called me into his office. I was so excited, looking forward to a calling, but his words are forever etched into my memory: "I want you on a mission before the end of the year." At the end of the year i would not have been a member of the church for a year so I wan't eligible to attend and his words came across as "I don't want you in my ward."

Since then, in every single ward I have been a member of, I have noticed that people show the normal human nature of having a few friends, focusing on those friends, and ignoring anybody else. One time I visited a ward and, at the end of sacrament meeting, they announced Melchizedek Priesthood meetings wouldn't happen that day as the men had been assigned to primary so the women could all attend Relief Society. Maybe it would have been different had I been there another week, but I spent three hours in that building and not one person spoke to me.

I've been to ward activities like dinners, sitting somewhere and marking my spot, but when I go get some food someone else takes my chair. They will even move my stuff off the table as if I wasn't even there! If they take my spot and then go get food, and I take the spot back when I get back to the table first, they then act like the offended and wronged party! And their friends side with them!

I know that a lot of you will immediately "blame the victim." You will tell me something along the lines of "If you want people to acknowledge your presence you need to approach them." But I call BS because I'm not one of you. I wasn't raised in a church where, in direct contradiction to the teachings of the church, people accept that they have no responsibility to welcome or fellowship new people unless they are called to do so or that new person approaches them. I come from a background of having attended churches where the membership looks for new people, welcomes, them, and befriends them.


In my experience, regardless of my own actions, I have observed that wards in places where there aren't a lot of members or there is a lot of turnover I find very friendly wards. In wards where there are very few people moving in or out, where social circles are well established, it can be extremely difficult or even impossible to become an accepted part of the ward.

I don't know where you are from, but here in Texas there are too many converts to have a situation like that occur. I was baptized in north Texas, the DFW area to be more exact and I was 19 at the time. I did eventually go on a service mission when I was 22, but no one came up to me and so much as told me to serve a mission. Perhaps there were those who thought that I should, but if any did they never said anything. I originally was baptized in a family ward, and didn't start going to the YSA until about a year after I joined the church, because I wanted to not because anyone told me to. I have traveled and been to enough wards and branches to know that it sounds to me like you possibly converted in a small town in or around the Mormon Corridor. Because, there are too many adult converts outside of Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, New Mexico, Arizona, etc. that even if you cannot find life long members to be your friend you have at least 5-7 in a ward or 2-3 in a branch that becomes your little clique so to speak. I mean they actually move your stuff from the chair? I know you can't be from the south, because the only time that ever happened to me was twice when I visited SLC and once when I visited NYC that I can remember.

[David13]

When I joined the church I was 18 and in a stake without a YSA ward. Being in a family ward without a family, being at that age where I was supposed to be about to leave on a mission but with no plans to do so and no ability to do so, I was pretty much alone. After a few months I was assigned a home teacher whose idea of home teaching was to talk with me for two or three minutes during church. I didn't even rate a home visit.

A few months after I joined the church we moved to an adjacent stake with a YSA ward. I was very much treated like an outsider by most of that ward. Within a month of starting in that ward the Bishop called me into his office. I was so excited, looking forward to a calling, but his words are forever etched into my memory: "I want you on a mission before the end of the year." At the end of the year i would not have been a member of the church for a year so I wan't eligible to attend and his words came across as "I don't want you in my ward."

Since then, in every single ward I have been a member of, I have noticed that people show the normal human nature of having a few friends, focusing on those friends, and ignoring anybody else. One time I visited a ward and, at the end of sacrament meeting, they announced Melchizedek Priesthood meetings wouldn't happen that day as the men had been assigned to primary so the women could all attend Relief Society. Maybe it would have been different had I been there another week, but I spent three hours in that building and not one person spoke to me.

I've been to ward activities like dinners, sitting somewhere and marking my spot, but when I go get some food someone else takes my chair. They will even move my stuff off the table as if I wasn't even there! If they take my spot and then go get food, and I take the spot back when I get back to the table first, they then act like the offended and wronged party! And their friends side with them!

I know that a lot of you will immediately "blame the victim." You will tell me something along the lines of "If you want people to acknowledge your presence you need to approach them." But I call BS because I'm not one of you. I wasn't raised in a church where, in direct contradiction to the teachings of the church, people accept that they have no responsibility to welcome or fellowship new people unless they are called to do so or that new person approaches them. I come from a background of having attended churches where the membership looks for new people, welcomes, them, and befriends them.


In my experience, regardless of my own actions, I have observed that wards in places where there aren't a lot of members or there is a lot of turnover I find very friendly wards. In wards where there are very few people moving in or out, where social circles are well established, it can be extremely difficult or even impossible to become an accepted part of the ward.

I don't know where you are from, but here in Texas there are too many converts to have a situation like that occur. I was baptized in north Texas, the DFW area to be more exact and I was 19 at the time. I did eventually go on a service mission when I was 22, but no one came up to me and so much as told me to serve a mission. Perhaps there were those who thought that I should, but if any did they never said anything. I originally was baptized in a family ward, and didn't start going to the YSA until about a year after I joined the church, because I wanted to not because anyone told me to. I have traveled and been to enough wards and branches to know that it sounds to me like you possibly converted in a small town in or around the Mormon Corridor. Because, there are too many adult converts outside of Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, New Mexico, Arizona, etc. that even if you cannot find life long members to be your friend you have at least 5-7 in a ward or 2-3 in a branch that becomes your little clique so to speak. I mean they actually move your stuff from the chair? I know you can't be from the south, because the only time that ever happened to me was twice when I visited SLC and once when I visited NYC that I can remember.

All of the things posted about here are not peculiar to LDS, but are ordinary human characteristics or traits or faults.

It also sounds like some are not going by the rules, as the rule is, when there is a convert, a friend is to be appointed for them from within the membership. I know when I joined the church my appointed friend was very helpful to me. And if he said anything I didn't like, I was able to say to him "and you are supposed to be my friend." Of course, I say that to anyone even if they are not a friend, if they say something I do not like.

No matter where you go, you have to introduce yourself and be friendly and all smiles if you go in unknown to them. Unless you don't want to talk to anyone. Then they will come up and introduce themselves and try to talk, because they think you are "shy" or don't have any social skills. That's my experience, anyway.

Now, when you go to a ward dinner to eat, you need to first select your own place, then as others come in, you pick out who you want to sit by you and you then smile at them, and say, hey, here, sit with me, there are seats here. If they want to sit with you they will, or they will say, thanks, no, we want to sit with someone else over there. Keep trying.

Now, if someone comes along and you realize you DO NOT WANT them to sit by you, you have to look grumpy and angry and don't look at them. If they ask if these seats are taken, don't lie and say yes, just grumble and again don't look. They will get the idea and move along.

Now, as to clearing away your space when you go to get more food. LDS are "neat freaks". They are all clean up immediately. If they are assigned to clean tables, they will clean tables, even if you are not done eating. Yes, I've had that done, "hey, I was still eating that ...", sometimes they still don't give it back.

If you want your seat saved, you first have to get kinda sorta friendly with the people seated around you. Then, when you get up to get more, you must say to them, "save my place, don't let them take my other dishes, etc." Even then I have had my stuff cleared and I ask the people, and they say "we tried, but they took it anyway".

It's just that Mormon cleanliness obsession.

And all this is not really confined to LDS settings, this is all true anywhere.

There was a thing on tv. They had a person go into a restaurant, etc get their food, eat some, and stand up and go to the bathroom, leaving their possessions around there. Other people in the area never noticed, never said anything if some other person came and took their possessions. UNLESS, they had first socialized a bit with those around them. If they simply talked a bit, said a few words with people around them, then those people were inclined to defend their possessions.

So you just have to have your little tricks and all to maintain your position. Not that it always works, sometimes it doesn't.

dc

[brianj]

It also sounds like some are not going by the rules, as the rule is, when there is a convert, a friend is to be appointed for them from within the membership. I know when I joined the church my appointed friend was very helpful to me. And if he said anything I didn't like, I was able to say to him "and you are supposed to be my friend." Of course, I say that to anyone even if they are not a friend, if they say something I do not like.

No matter where you go, you have to introduce yourself and be friendly and all smiles if you go in unknown to them. Unless you don't want to talk to anyone. Then they will come up and introduce themselves and try to talk, because they think you are "shy" or don't have any social skills. That's my experience, anyway.

This bothers me. Are we really so unfriendly that if someone new comes a bishop has to call someone to be their "friend" so they won't be ignored? Am I the only one who thinks there is a problem here?

Regarding your second paragraph, it implies a change needs to be made to signage on the meetinghouses. Instead of saying "visitors welcome," would it be more honest to say, "visitors welcome who are all smiles and introduce themselves to everybody" because if you have never been in an LDS church, don't known anybody, and are maybe a little shy then you can come but you won't really be welcome?

Now, when you go to a ward dinner to eat, you need to first select your own place, then as others come in, you pick out who you want to sit by you and you then smile at them, and say, hey, here, sit with me, there are seats here. If they want to sit with you they will, or they will say, thanks, no, we want to sit with someone else over there. Keep trying.

Now, if someone comes along and you realize you DO NOT WANT them to sit by you, you have to look grumpy and angry and don't look at them. If they ask if these seats are taken, don't lie and say yes, just grumble and again don't look. They will get the idea and move along.

Now, as to clearing away your space when you go to get more food. LDS are "neat freaks". They are all clean up immediately. If they are assigned to clean tables, they will clean tables, even if you are not done eating. Yes, I've had that done, "hey, I was still eating that ...", sometimes they still don't give it back.

If you want your seat saved, you first have to get kinda sorta friendly with the people seated around you. Then, when you get up to get more, you must say to them, "save my place, don't let them take my other dishes, etc." Even then I have had my stuff cleared and I ask the people, and they say "we tried, but they took it anyway".

It's just that Mormon cleanliness obsession.

And all this is not really confined to LDS settings, this is all true anywhere.

There was a thing on tv. They had a person go into a restaurant, etc get their food, eat some, and stand up and go to the bathroom, leaving their possessions around there. Other people in the area never noticed, never said anything if some other person came and took their possessions. UNLESS, they had first socialized a bit with those around them. If they simply talked a bit, said a few words with people around them, then those people were inclined to defend their possessions.

So you just have to have your little tricks and all to maintain your position. Not that it always works, sometimes it doesn't.

dc

You seem to have misunderstood. Here's the approach that I took:
1) Get there on time, find a seat, put my jacket on the chair.
2) Invite some people to sit with me, experience a 100% rejection rate.
3) Get up to get some food.
4) Return to the table to find another family sitting there and my jacket not at the table.
5) Find my jacket on a table at the side of the room that wasn't set up for eating from.
6) Observe the family that took my chair get up to go get food.
7) Take my jacket, put it back where I was sitting, move what was put there, and sit down.
8) When someone tells me that X is sitting there, tell them that I had put my jacket there and they moved it.
9) Struggle to not say what I want to say when the family who took my seat returns and is outraged that I stole *their* seat.

In my experience nobody cleans up if a person gets up and leaves their plate behind. And it's been my experience that it's hard to have a conversation with people at your table when nobody will sit there. If I get to an event late and find an available chair at a table that other people are already sitting at I'm permitted to join them, but when I have done this the conversation has focused on things like primary and young women, subjects that exclude me from the conversation. At the last few ward dinners I have attended people only sat at the table I was at after I got up or if they didn't speak English.

[David13]

...


This bothers me. Are we really so unfriendly that if someone new comes a bishop has to call someone to be their "friend" so they won't be ignored? Am I the only one who thinks there is a problem here?

...

Hey, I don't make the rules in this church. I just go by them. And I certainly don't see any problem with appointing a friend for me.

As to your experiences, it seems you have a whole lot of them that are negative.

I don't understand that.

All my experiences in the church have been positive, tho' many were positive because I made them positive.
dc

[brianj]

...


This bothers me. Are we really so unfriendly that if someone new comes a bishop has to call someone to be their "friend" so they won't be ignored? Am I the only one who thinks there is a problem here?

...

Hey, I don't make the rules in this church. I just go by them. And I certainly don't see any problem with appointing a friend for me.

As to your experiences, it seems you have a whole lot of them that are negative.

I don't understand that.

All my experiences in the church have been positive, tho' many were positive because I made them positive.
dc

I didn't think I was implying you were responsible for the rules. But I hope you will consider the following.

I have visited other churches, churches that don't have the concept of callings or assignments, and have had a lot of people approach me and try to make me feel welcome. In some congregations it seems like I met half the regulars before I was able to leave, and I left with an invitation to return the following week.

What if someone learns a little it about the church, is genuinely curious, decides to visit their local congregation, and they are very shy? Are you going to say it's their fault that they are shy, they didn't smile at everybody, walk up to everybody they saw, offer a hand, and introduce themselves, therefore they have no business expecting anybody to be friendly to them? Or would the Christlike thing to do be for members of that congregation to keep an eye open, notice a new person, and welcome that person to the ward?

In a previous ward (somewhere in Pierce county, Washington) I had been a member of the ward for about three months and saw someone I didn't recognize. I went up, introduced myself, and asked if they were new, visiting, or I just hadn't noticed the person. He said that he was visiting because of his calling. He was the stake president.
Another time I saw this stake president with someone else I didn't recognize. I went up and introduced myself. The visitor turned out to be a visiting Area Seventy, and because I took this action I was able to introduce my son to a Seventy and I hope it was a meaningful event for the boy.
Of course most of the time I have seen someone new they are genuinely appreciative that someone cared enough to notice and acknowledge them.

[David13]

...


This bothers me. Are we really so unfriendly that if someone new comes a bishop has to call someone to be their "friend" so they won't be ignored? Am I the only one who thinks there is a problem here?

...

Hey, I don't make the rules in this church. I just go by them. And I certainly don't see any problem with appointing a friend for me.

As to your experiences, it seems you have a whole lot of them that are negative.

I don't understand that.

All my experiences in the church have been positive, tho' many were positive because I made them positive.
dc

I didn't think I was implying you were responsible for the rules. But I hope you will consider the following.

I have visited other churches, churches that don't have the concept of callings or assignments, and have had a lot of people approach me and try to make me feel welcome. In some congregations it seems like I met half the regulars before I was able to leave, and I left with an invitation to return the following week.

What if someone learns a little it about the church, is genuinely curious, decides to visit their local congregation, and they are very shy? Are you going to say it's their fault that they are shy, they didn't smile at everybody, walk up to everybody they saw, offer a hand, and introduce themselves, therefore they have no business expecting anybody to be friendly to them? Or would the Christlike thing to do be for members of that congregation to keep an eye open, notice a new person, and welcome that person to the ward?

In a previous ward (somewhere in Pierce county, Washington) I had been a member of the ward for about three months and saw someone I didn't recognize. I went up, introduced myself, and asked if they were new, visiting, or I just hadn't noticed the person. He said that he was visiting because of his calling. He was the stake president.
Another time I saw this stake president with someone else I didn't recognize. I went up and introduced myself. The visitor turned out to be a visiting Area Seventy, and because I took this action I was able to introduce my son to a Seventy and I hope it was a meaningful event for the boy.
Of course most of the time I have seen someone new they are genuinely appreciative that someone cared enough to notice and acknowledge them.

In the two wards I've been in there have been all kinds of "shy" people who integrated assimilated into the ward fully.

As to your experience, it seems that your experiences have not been as negative as you seem to have indicated. That in fact, you did have some very positive experiences, where you did exactly what I suggested; you took the initiative. In other words, where you practiced what you preached.
dc

[brianj]

In the two wards I've been in there have been all kinds of "shy" people who integrated assimilated into the ward fully.

As to your experience, it seems that your experiences have not been as negative as you seem to have indicated. That in fact, you did have some very positive experiences, where you did exactly what I suggested; you took the initiative. In other words, where you practiced what you preached.
dc

I have had some very bad experiences and some very good experiences. I have had some wonderful experiences in my current ward when I pointed out that in the rest of the country it's considered rude to walk up to two people in a conversation, interrupt whomever is speaking, and address only one person as if the other isn't there then added that when people do this it makes the other person feel disrespected, unappreciated, unimportant, and unwanted. I have had wonderful experiences in other wards where people are very transient. But I've been to wards where people are very transient and nobody wants to talk to me.
I ask: "Where do I go for priesthood?"
The person responds: "Ask brother X." Then they turn away before I can ask who that is.
My experiences in wards with a very low rate of people moving in and out are also usually negative.

I have been to several wards where I had exactly the same experience as Elder Devere Harris visiting one ward as related by Elder Ballard in the October 1998 General Conference. "I entered there as a stranger and tried every way that I knew to strike up a conversation, or to say hello, or to be kind, or to be greeted, or to be known. Everyone ignored me; nobody would speak to me—no one!"

Of course I am not qualified for what eventually happened to Elder Harris: "Finally, a man recognized me. He said, ‘Oh, Elder Harris.’ The bishop turned around and said, ‘What did you say?’ The brother said, ‘This is Elder Harris of the First Quorum of the Seventy.’
Well, things changed. It wasn’t long before I was asked to sit on the stand; they wondered if I wouldn’t like to bear my testimony. After the meeting, many people shook my hand. As I left, I thought, ‘What a tragedy! A gray-haired man who was unknown walks into a meeting. Nobody recognizes him, nobody says hello, nobody is kind. Then, because of his Church position, everybody changes and wants to be friendly.’”

If a General Authority can try everything he knows how to do to strike up a conversation but nobody was willing to be welcoming, I suspect ward members bear as much of the blame as I have previously indicated.

[David13]

In the two wards I've been in there have been all kinds of "shy" people who integrated assimilated into the ward fully.

As to your experience, it seems that your experiences have not been as negative as you seem to have indicated. That in fact, you did have some very positive experiences, where you did exactly what I suggested; you took the initiative. In other words, where you practiced what you preached.
dc

I have had some very bad experiences and some very good experiences. I have had some wonderful experiences in my current ward when I pointed out that in the rest of the country it's considered rude to walk up to two people in a conversation, interrupt whomever is speaking, and address only one person as if the other isn't there then added that when people do this it makes the other person feel disrespected, unappreciated, unimportant, and unwanted. I have had wonderful experiences in other wards where people are very transient. But I've been to wards where people are very transient and nobody wants to talk to me.
I ask: "Where do I go for priesthood?"
The person responds: "Ask brother X." Then they turn away before I can ask who that is.
My experiences in wards with a very low rate of people moving in and out are also usually negative.

I have been to several wards where I had exactly the same experience as Elder Devere Harris visiting one ward as related by Elder Ballard in the October 1998 General Conference. "I entered there as a stranger and tried every way that I knew to strike up a conversation, or to say hello, or to be kind, or to be greeted, or to be known. Everyone ignored me; nobody would speak to me—no one!"

Of course I am not qualified for what eventually happened to Elder Harris: "Finally, a man recognized me. He said, ‘Oh, Elder Harris.’ The bishop turned around and said, ‘What did you say?’ The brother said, ‘This is Elder Harris of the First Quorum of the Seventy.’
Well, things changed. It wasn’t long before I was asked to sit on the stand; they wondered if I wouldn’t like to bear my testimony. After the meeting, many people shook my hand. As I left, I thought, ‘What a tragedy! A gray-haired man who was unknown walks into a meeting. Nobody recognizes him, nobody says hello, nobody is kind. Then, because of his Church position, everybody changes and wants to be friendly.’”

If a General Authority can try everything he knows how to do to strike up a conversation but nobody was willing to be welcoming, I suspect ward members bear as much of the blame as I have previously indicated.

Is that what they call the blame game? I'll pass on that.
dc

[Juliet]

Sometimes I pray for Jesus to wash the congregation and get rid of all the dark spots. I sometimes struggle being in a group of people. On the one hand it is good because we can help fight off each other's demons. On the other hand you get everyone's demons in one room. So I ask God to wash everyone so the air is clean from a spiritual sense. Hopefully that is what the sacramemt does anyway.

Maybe the only thing God is washing is the scales on my eyes. Nevertheless I have found benefit in such a prayer.

[harakim]

I know that a lot of you will immediately "blame the victim." You will tell me something along the lines of "If you want people to acknowledge your presence you need to approach them." But I call BS because I'm not one of you. I wasn't raised in a church where, in direct contradiction to the teachings of the church, people accept that they have no responsibility to welcome or fellowship new people unless they are called to do so or that new person approaches them. I come from a background of having attended churches where the membership looks for new people, welcomes, them, and befriends them.

You are responsible for your own happiness. As long as you make your happiness conditional upon other people's actions, over which you have no control, you will continue to have bouts of depression.

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to not have expectations of anyone. Eventually, I realized I might die alone and never get married, never have kids, and never have an exciting job. I was depressed for a few days and then I had an eiphany that I get to live with myself every day. And the world is incredible.

So in case you are experiencing something similar to my experience of having expectations of other people, I thought I'd throw this out there. You'd be happier if you did not have expectations. You would also take control of your life and make things happen that you like. You would be fine having no friends in the ward, but you would pursue them if you wanted friends.

You said "I call BS because I'm not one of you"? In what sense? Do you think we were all raised in the church? And you say that you are aware of the responsibilities but you don't take them. I am not aware of the responsibilities. I did not get that training when I became a member. And it sounds like you are saying we should be like the church that you came from, not like the church that we are. That's fine, but do you really expect everyone to drop their culture and become the way you want them to? Do you do that for them? Do you teach the principle of fellowshipping every unknown person? Do you practice it?

[brianj]

You are responsible for your own happiness. As long as you make your happiness conditional upon other people's actions, over which you have no control, you will continue to have bouts of depression.

Yes, I'm responsible for my own happiness. But I also accept the personal responsibility that I know I have, and that I know you have, to welcome and fellowship other people at church.

You said "I call BS because I'm not one of you"? In what sense? Do you think we were all raised in the church? And you say that you are aware of the responsibilities but you don't take them. I am not aware of the responsibilities. I did not get that training when I became a member. And it sounds like you are saying we should be like the church that you came from, not like the church that we are. That's fine, but do you really expect everyone to drop their culture and become the way you want them to? Do you do that for them? Do you teach the principle of fellowshipping every unknown person? Do you practice it?

There is culture then there is doctrine. Some of that culture is in opposition to the doctrine, such as the cultural attitude that when you want to speak with someone who is in the middle of a conversation then you are superior to that conversation and should interrupt it. How does that show love for your neighbor?

I'm surprised that you never had a lesson on the importance of welcoming visitors, fellowshipping, mourning with those who mourn, comforting those who are in need of comfort, etc. I have had such lessons on many occasions.

And no, I don't expect our church to become like other churches. But I do think that we should look at examples of what others are doing better and strive to follow those examples. Get to know a devout Muslim and you're very likely to hear them calling you brother or sister, as appropriate. And I have never observed it coming across as just something that's said, but with a real meaning. Is that an example we should follow?

I REFUSE to become "one of you" because I refuse to think that new people or visitors don't deserve a welcome or any attention unless they put out the effort. I refuse to stay as far as I can from the person who comes to church smelling like cigarettes. And if you were paying closer attention you would have noted the anecdote I shared about welcoming a visitor who turned out to be the stake president. So yes, I try to live this principle as I encourage others to do the same. One thing that always causes me to lose respect for someone is hearing them say to do something as they intentionally do something else.

[MMbelieve]

When I joined the church I was 18 and in a stake without a YSA ward. Being in a family ward without a family, being at that age where I was supposed to be about to leave on a mission but with no plans to do so and no ability to do so, I was pretty much alone. After a few months I was assigned a home teacher whose idea of home teaching was to talk with me for two or three minutes during church. I didn't even rate a home visit.

A few months after I joined the church we moved to an adjacent stake with a YSA ward. I was very much treated like an outsider by most of that ward. Within a month of starting in that ward the Bishop called me into his office. I was so excited, looking forward to a calling, but his words are forever etched into my memory: "I want you on a mission before the end of the year." At the end of the year i would not have been a member of the church for a year so I wan't eligible to attend and his words came across as "I don't want you in my ward."

Since then, in every single ward I have been a member of, I have noticed that people show the normal human nature of having a few friends, focusing on those friends, and ignoring anybody else. One time I visited a ward and, at the end of sacrament meeting, they announced Melchizedek Priesthood meetings wouldn't happen that day as the men had been assigned to primary so the women could all attend Relief Society. Maybe it would have been different had I been there another week, but I spent three hours in that building and not one person spoke to me.

I've been to ward activities like dinners, sitting somewhere and marking my spot, but when I go get some food someone else takes my chair. They will even move my stuff off the table as if I wasn't even there! If they take my spot and then go get food, and I take the spot back when I get back to the table first, they then act like the offended and wronged party! And their friends side with them!

I know that a lot of you will immediately "blame the victim." You will tell me something along the lines of "If you want people to acknowledge your presence you need to approach them." But I call BS because I'm not one of you. I wasn't raised in a church where, in direct contradiction to the teachings of the church, people accept that they have no responsibility to welcome or fellowship new people unless they are called to do so or that new person approaches them. I come from a background of having attended churches where the membership looks for new people, welcomes, them, and befriends them.


In my experience, regardless of my own actions, I have observed that wards in places where there aren't a lot of members or there is a lot of turnover I find very friendly wards. In wards where there are very few people moving in or out, where social circles are well established, it can be extremely difficult or even impossible to become an accepted part of the ward.

No blame from me, I know all too well of this situation. We moved a lot so my family and I have this experience. It seems some people are always outsiders. I have had 1 home teacher since I became an adult....1. Same goes for visiting teachers. Just 1 set, they happened to be at the same location, sure miss that ward.

My home teacher mentioned to us why he always did the best he could and cares a great deal. He said he had a great home teacher once who changed his life and so he gained a testimony of the work and was faithful to it. He really was a great home teacher to us.

[brianj]

No blame from me, I know all too well of this situation. We moved a lot so my family and I have this experience. It seems some people are always outsiders. I have had 1 home teacher since I became an adult....1. Same goes for visiting teachers. Just 1 set, they happened to be at the same location, sure miss that ward.

My home teacher mentioned to us why he always did the best he could and cares a great deal. He said he had a great home teacher once who changed his life and so he gained a testimony of the work and was faithful to it. He really was a great home teacher to us.

In each of my last three wards I had families I was assigned to say that I was the only home teacher who had visited in the years they were there.

In this ward my first pair of home teachers came intermittently, the second pair came once or twice then spent the next six or eight months telling me they would visit without doing so, and I suspect the only way I'll find out who's assigned to minister to me is if I look it up online.

Perhaps I am not being friendly enough. Maybe I'm supposed to get to know my home teachers at church, find out what they like to eat or enjoy doing, cook dinner and plan activities, then invite them over for what they like to eat and do. I will be curious to see if someone seriously says I should to this and that it's my fault I am not being home taught just like it's my fault that nobody recognizes a new face and welcomes me when visiting a new ward.

[harakim]

No blame from me, I know all too well of this situation. We moved a lot so my family and I have this experience. It seems some people are always outsiders. I have had 1 home teacher since I became an adult....1. Same goes for visiting teachers. Just 1 set, they happened to be at the same location, sure miss that ward.

My home teacher mentioned to us why he always did the best he could and cares a great deal. He said he had a great home teacher once who changed his life and so he gained a testimony of the work and was faithful to it. He really was a great home teacher to us.

In each of my last three wards I had families I was assigned to say that I was the only home teacher who had visited in the years they were there.

In this ward my first pair of home teachers came intermittently, the second pair came once or twice then spent the next six or eight months telling me they would visit without doing so, and I suspect the only way I'll find out who's assigned to minister to me is if I look it up online.

Perhaps I am not being friendly enough. Maybe I'm supposed to get to know my home teachers at church, find out what they like to eat or enjoy doing, cook dinner and plan activities, then invite them over for what they like to eat and do. I will be curious to see if someone seriously says I should to this and that it's my fault I am not being home taught just like it's my fault that nobody recognizes a new face and welcomes me when visiting a new ward.

It's only your fault that you have negative feelings because of your expectation that your home teachers will visit you.

[Teancum]

I hear that there are people that have problems. I think we all have problems. We all hurt each other, and all need forgiveness from each other. Perhaps we would see roses if we weren't afraid of finding thorns.

This has been my experience: When new people come to my ward, I try to make a point of greeting them and saying hello and welcome. There have been a couple of families that when they moved into the ward, acted offended that I would do that, and gave me a very cold shoulder reception, even after several weeks of me offering a welcoming gesture. I soon gave up and no longer try to be friendly with them. Apparently I don't look like a E.Q.P., bishop, stake pres. or seventy etc ... because I see them being all friendly with those that are in those callings. So they have an idea of what type of person they want in their circle of friends. I can and have accepted that, and am happy to be friends with whomever will accept me.
Despite those seemingly rejections, and other weaknesses and faults of people, I feel that I live in the best and most loving ward in the world. The people are freaking awesome! Even the stake pres. when he was newly called, visited the ward, and after the meeting, asked the bishop "what did you do to this ward? I have never felt the spirit of a congregation so strongly in a sacrament meeting before". The bishop told him, "I didn't do anything, its just the way these people are".
Now the next week after the bishop got up and told us all that, we seem to have gotten big heads and forgotten what we were practicing that we didn't know we were doing. Oh well, we had a taste of Zion for a bit.

So yeah if you want to have that kind of ward, be that type of person who you think exemplifies what you think would be ideal. your actions will rub off on someone else and slowly bit by bit things will improve for the whole ward.

[JohnnyL]

When I joined the church I was 18 and in a stake without a YSA ward. Being in a family ward without a family, being at that age where I was supposed to be about to leave on a mission but with no plans to do so and no ability to do so, I was pretty much alone. After a few months I was assigned a home teacher whose idea of home teaching was to talk with me for two or three minutes during church. I didn't even rate a home visit.

A few months after I joined the church we moved to an adjacent stake with a YSA ward. I was very much treated like an outsider by most of that ward. Within a month of starting in that ward the Bishop called me into his office. I was so excited, looking forward to a calling, but his words are forever etched into my memory: "I want you on a mission before the end of the year." At the end of the year i would not have been a member of the church for a year so I wan't eligible to attend and his words came across as "I don't want you in my ward."

Since then, in every single ward I have been a member of, I have noticed that people show the normal human nature of having a few friends, focusing on those friends, and ignoring anybody else. One time I visited a ward and, at the end of sacrament meeting, they announced Melchizedek Priesthood meetings wouldn't happen that day as the men had been assigned to primary so the women could all attend Relief Society. Maybe it would have been different had I been there another week, but I spent three hours in that building and not one person spoke to me.

I've been to ward activities like dinners, sitting somewhere and marking my spot, but when I go get some food someone else takes my chair. They will even move my stuff off the table as if I wasn't even there! If they take my spot and then go get food, and I take the spot back when I get back to the table first, they then act like the offended and wronged party! And their friends side with them!

I know that a lot of you will immediately "blame the victim." You will tell me something along the lines of "If you want people to acknowledge your presence you need to approach them." But I call BS because I'm not one of you. I wasn't raised in a church where, in direct contradiction to the teachings of the church, people accept that they have no responsibility to welcome or fellowship new people unless they are called to do so or that new person approaches them. I come from a background of having attended churches where the membership looks for new people, welcomes, them, and befriends them.

In my experience, regardless of my own actions, I have observed that wards in places where there aren't a lot of members or there is a lot of turnover I find very friendly wards. In wards where there are very few people moving in or out, where social circles are well established, it can be extremely difficult or even impossible to become an accepted part of the ward.

I think people have to either be completely ignorant or callous to believe that every ward in a telestial setting is the same greatness.

OF COURSE there are cliques, bullying, ranks, etc., in one way or another, in most all wards. I've been in over 20 wards, and I've seen it in every one--yet, some were definitely much better in this area than others.

I invite anyone who believes otherwise, or that it is what YOU make of it, etc., to choose a complete stranger of upper rank and become "best buddies." Let us know how it went...

[will]

Had a lady in a ward look at me and my family and asked us to leave because her family always sits in "This pew", I introduced myself and another lady stated ohh I know all about you and walked away, we moved because we felt very unwelcome. Being a new move in and feeling and treated like an outcast was no fun. Oakley idaho we will never return. Overall most lds wards are not like this. But there are cliqs or many "sunday friends"

[Blessed]

We have some "anchor" families in our ward, but most everyone is very welcoming and friendly to new families as well. I've never seen the bullying, but I do think all groups tend to be a little bit clique-ish - people tend to group together with others with similar interests. If that's a clique, it's human nature.