Elder Renlund on Suicide

[mgridle1]

No, it's not your life to take. That is a very selfish, humanistic way of looking at the world and God certainly doesn't enter into the picture when one proclaims it is your life to take.

At his funeral all this was treated like, "Wasn't he just a spunky boy, just too daring for this world!" It just so happened though, that he died while driving on the freeway in a snowstorm where visibility was down and everyone was going 30 miles an hour. He decided it would be fun to go faster and faster in these extreme weather conditions, and made it up to 75 miles an hour before hitting into a SUV. He died alright, and he took with him a mother and two of her youngest children and put his friend next to him in very critical condition. Nevertheless, the bishop just said that is was just this young boys' time to go and he had been called on a mission to the other side and at this very moment was teaching the gospel in the spirit world."

I know, what else can you say? You don't want to make things worse, do you? But what about the people he took with him? And his friend who was on life support?

That is where it requires a lot of courage, faith, and the Spirit to find just the right words-maybe those were the right words, I wasn't there, I don't know.

But I suspect that it does a lot more damage and good, b/c it doesn't allow people to truly grieve and say, you were a blooming idiot, I hate your guts that you did something so incredibly stupid, reckless, damaging, etc. And then once it is out in the open, then and only then can you begin the process of forgiveness and healing. You have to allow yourself to feel those negative emotions so that Christ can come and take them away. He can't take them away if you bury those feelings and never allow yourself to feel them.

And then it makes things worse b/c you in effect buried the body alive and then at some point that buried body that is still alive reaches back from the grave and pulls you into the grave with it. You have to bury the body, but you have to make sure that the body is dead before you bury it.

People want to be "nice and kind", but the world isn't nice and kind. It's very harsh, very brutal, very tragic, there is a lot of pain and suffering and in order to overcome it you have to identify it, learn to live with it and then using Christ's atonement forgive, make amends, try to be a better person.

I think you could give an extremely powerful sermon on anger, betrayal, irresponsibility and finally the most important of all forgiveness. There is a very good reason why we don't speak ill of the dead-the purpose of the funeral and the talks isn't for the dead, it's for the living. So that is where you make the call, I guess, is it better for the living to receive platitudes about a "daring boy" or not . . .

When my step father died, Elder Carlos B Asay spoke at his funeral ( he was our neighbor ). My stepfather was a convert, and had many family members who were nonmembers at the funeral, and I am sure he told Elder Asay how hard he had been trying to get his family interested in the church and they just laughed at him, and how much that broke his heart. I know this because Elder Asay, when he started speaking at the podium, pounded the pulpit and called my stepfathers' family to repentance like you wouldn't believe. He really told them to repent and be baptized or else.

Too bad it didn't work, but it was the most memorable sermon I ever heard from a GA.

The thing about the buried body was creepy. I liked it. I am going to use it. You got any more where that comes from, dish it out.

Sometimes it doesn't work, we can't make people do things, all you can do is use the Spirit to guide when to warn, exhort, etc. People are people and have the ability to choose for themselves.

Any more lol. . .give it time maybe they will pop out. I can't claim it as my own, I got it from my spouse.

[passionflower]

He said " suicide will not be a defining characteristic of their eternities."

I know you are pointing out the interesting idea that he said "eternities" rather than the singular eternity, but I still don't understand the theology behind that statement, whether or not eternity is singular or plural. It's like saying, go ahead and do something to end your probation here, and cause your mother to grieve the rest of her life -- don't worry, it will not define who you are. Sin all sorts of ways, including self-murder, whatever, it won't define you. If what we do here during this probation isn't going to be a defining characteristic, no matter what we do, then what the heck are we doing here?!?!?!?

You might have just a little bit of a "point" here........

[Jesef]

You "hard liners" should form a sub-forum where you can whip each other with perfectionist scripture quotes and prophet quotes. You don't feel as inadequate & self-righteous (simultaneously) as you could. You could really take it to the next level - if you had your own sub-forum. As for me, I think your view is both depressing and discouraging. Maybe when you meet God it will change your mind. But you may not because you'll never feel you're quite "worthy". But it's really all in your head. Too bad. I wish you could believe in a Benevolent God-Creator instead of the Angry Sky God whose anxious to cast your butts lightning-bolt-style down to hell for your minor imperfections, etc. That God doesn't really exist, I'm telling ya. Carry on. I'm glad the "hard liners" in the Q15 are dying off - couldn't happen too fast, if you ask me. Peace.

[brianj]

I am really saddened that so many of you are so focused on judging others that you immediately focus on arguing about what is or is not a sin. I sincerely wish people here would focus more on what Elder Renlund told us to do.

Then again, it is so much easier to point the finger of blame. If someone has desires to commit suicide or feels an attraction to others of the same sex then they are a sinner, they are evil, they aren't worth your time or attention. So whatever you do, don't follow Elder Renlund's teachings and "reach out with love and understanding." It's so much more fun to to to a funeral and gossip about what an evil person the suicide victim is and how lucky they will be to inherit the Telestial Kingdom than it is to really love someone, to reach out and minister to them, to be your brother's keeper.

[mgridle1]

You "hard liners" should form a sub-forum where you can whip each other with perfectionist scripture quotes and prophet quotes. You don't feel as inadequate & self-righteous (simultaneously) as you could. You could really take it to the next level - if you had your own sub-forum. As for me, I think your view is both depressing and discouraging. Maybe when you meet God it will change your mind. But you may not because you'll never feel you're quite "worthy". But it's really all in your head. Too bad. I wish you could believe in a Benevolent God-Creator instead of the Angry Sky God whose anxious to cast your butts lightning-bolt-style down to hell for your minor imperfections, etc. That God doesn't really exist, I'm telling ya. Carry on. I'm glad the "hard liners" in the Q15 are dying off - couldn't happen too fast, if you ask me. Peace.

I have mentioned Christ and my relationship with Him, yet all I get from you is derision about an "Angry Sky God". Where is Christ in your life?

Fools mock, yet they shall mourn.

You haven't met God, so your claim about meeting God is false.

The scriptures tell us Alma 45:
16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—Cursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do wickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the blessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

Yet you tell me the exact opposite. I can plainly judge from whence comes your wisdom and power.

[Jesef]

Baloney.

[mgridle1]

I am really saddened that so many of you are so focused on judging others that you immediately focus on arguing about what is or is not a sin. I sincerely wish people here would focus more on what Elder Renlund told us to do.

Then again, it is so much easier to point the finger of blame. If someone has desires to commit suicide or feels an attraction to others of the same sex then they are a sinner, they are evil, they aren't worth your time or attention. So whatever you do, don't follow Elder Renlund's teachings and "reach out with love and understanding." It's so much more fun to to to a funeral and gossip about what an evil person the suicide victim is and how lucky they will be to inherit the Telestial Kingdom than it is to really love someone, to reach out and minister to them, to be your brother's keeper.

Clearly you are only hearing what you want to hear.

I have mentioned multiple times about Christ's atonement, forgiveness, healing, yet that isn't good enough for you. It must be papered over into nothing we do is wrong, which means if nothing we do is wrong then there is no need for Christ.

[mgridle1]

Baloney.

I honestly hope and pray you will come to know Christ. You haven't mentioned Him once in all your posts.

I'll say it again. You haven't met God-you don't know Him. B/c if you did, He would have pointed you to His Son-who is Christ.

[brianj]

I am really saddened that so many of you are so focused on judging others that you immediately focus on arguing about what is or is not a sin. I sincerely wish people here would focus more on what Elder Renlund told us to do.

Then again, it is so much easier to point the finger of blame. If someone has desires to commit suicide or feels an attraction to others of the same sex then they are a sinner, they are evil, they aren't worth your time or attention. So whatever you do, don't follow Elder Renlund's teachings and "reach out with love and understanding." It's so much more fun to to to a funeral and gossip about what an evil person the suicide victim is and how lucky they will be to inherit the Telestial Kingdom than it is to really love someone, to reach out and minister to them, to be your brother's keeper.

Clearly you are only hearing what you want to hear.

I have mentioned multiple times about Christ's atonement, forgiveness, healing, yet that isn't good enough for you. It must be papered over into nothing we do is wrong, which means if nothing we do is wrong then there is no need for Christ.

I wasn't going to go through the entire list and call people out individually. But even in your comments about forgiveness and healing have you been encouraging people to reach out? It's a particularly sensitive topic for me because I might not be alive today if some people hadn't reached out to me.

[Jesef]

When I said God-Creator, I was referring to Christ - and you don’t know jack squat about me or what I know, mg. Carry on & stop turning this into something about me. I am not your concern. We are discussing ideas. Dispute not because ye see not for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith (usually death or death’s equivalent, which is sacrifice of “all”, stuff like that - not sure it’s the same for everyone).

[mgridle1]

I am really saddened that so many of you are so focused on judging others that you immediately focus on arguing about what is or is not a sin. I sincerely wish people here would focus more on what Elder Renlund told us to do.

Then again, it is so much easier to point the finger of blame. If someone has desires to commit suicide or feels an attraction to others of the same sex then they are a sinner, they are evil, they aren't worth your time or attention. So whatever you do, don't follow Elder Renlund's teachings and "reach out with love and understanding." It's so much more fun to to to a funeral and gossip about what an evil person the suicide victim is and how lucky they will be to inherit the Telestial Kingdom than it is to really love someone, to reach out and minister to them, to be your brother's keeper.

Clearly you are only hearing what you want to hear.

I have mentioned multiple times about Christ's atonement, forgiveness, healing, yet that isn't good enough for you. It must be papered over into nothing we do is wrong, which means if nothing we do is wrong then there is no need for Christ.

I wasn't going to go through the entire list and call people out individually. But even in your comments about forgiveness and healing have you been encouraging people to reach out? It's a particularly sensitive topic for me because I might not be alive today if some people hadn't reached out to me.

You're not alone in that regard, I'm not personally inexperienced on this topic.

Absolutely people should reach out, it would be a cold, cold person to not reach out to someone who is having a rough time. However, to me that's just called being a good Christian.

Please bare with me as I try to explain this:

Ultimately, I think there is a real danger when we make the focus of suicide on whether a person does or does not reach out, b/c what it can lead to is a shifting of a responsibility/accountability and a lack of responsibility on the person who is contemplating suicide. We might think to ourselves, "oh my I didn't reach out to xyz and he committed suicide, I'm such a horrible person for not reaching out". And the thing is you can't do that to yourself. Now, if the Spirit tells you to reach out and you ignore it-yes there are real world consequences to that decision, but ultimately the person who takes their own life is responsible. No one else made them do it, it wasn't anyone else's fault, the act MUST lie solely at their feet.

Did the person sin who did not obey the Spirit, yes absolutely. Did the person sin who committed suicide, yes absolutely. To say the one who committed suicide did not sin and yet it is our responsibility to help and reach out, means that the one who committed the act doesn't have accountability for their actions and that everyone else must be held accountable for the actions of the person who committed suicide. And that goes against the 2nd article of faith. "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins"

Disobeying the Spirit is a sin, yet in general it is a sin that can be rectified or learned from. We felt the Spirit telling us to talk to so-and-so, we didn't they are now dead, okay then the next time in a different setting we feel that same Spirit we can obey. But suicide there is no learning from it in this life-you are dead.

And more to the point, suicide isn't a "mental health" problem, neither is depression, anxiety, bi-polar, etc. they are spiritual problems. They all have spiritual roots. Those roots could be things such as not taking care of the temple God gave us, not enough faith in God's plan, too much selfishness, etc. In fact, all the "mental" issues (LGBT,etc.) they all have spiritual roots. "Mental health" is just the atheistic/secular way of describing spiritual problems.

I guarantee if you dig deep enough and are honest with yourself you will find that these issues, depression, anxiety, suicide etc. ALL have spiritual roots. It could be thinking too much of yourself-which quite frankly it is when people say things like "nobody loves me", that is a narcissistic, selfish world view, with the focus on the person saying it. "The world would be better off without me", again another selfish, narcissistic world view with the focus all about the person saying it. "Nobody accepts me for who I am", again selfish. If you look at all the typical sayings they are rooted in a focus on self.

Now, I'm NOT saying there aren't good reasons for someone to say these things, most likely they have VERY, VERY good reasons for saying these things. Maybe they were abused, maybe sexually exploited, maybe they actually did something very horrible. There are lots of actual reasons why someone might say those things and very good ones.

However, the actual way to resolve those issues is through Christ. Christ taught 2 great commandments, 1) Love God, 2) Love neighbor. So to actually heal and resolve one has to stop being so focused on putting self first and put God first. Then after putting God first, put your neighbor and then your self. If you put things in the proper order then things work out.

Knowing for example that God would not want you to kill yourself and b/c you love God you won't do that-you set your love of God above your own desires.

[mgridle1]

When I said God-Creator, I was referring to Christ - and you don’t know jack squat about me or what I know, mg. Carry on & stop turning this into something about me. I am not your concern. We are discussing ideas. Dispute not because ye see not for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith (usually death or death’s equivalent, which is sacrifice of “all”, stuff like that - not sure it’s the same for everyone).

Oh no you don't get to back-pedal on this one.

I mentioned Christ multiple times in my post about how I rejoice at a God who sent His Son and your response was "But you may not because you'll never feel you're quite "worthy". But it's really all in your head."

I reiterate for a third time:
You haven't seen God or Christ.

In fact your derision of my belief in Christ leads be to believe you are anti-Christ.

And you don't know about me and what I know either. I have a hard time believing that one who truly believes in Christ would be so derisive of my comments about how I'm glad He is the one who Saves me.

I don't care to carry this conversation further after this. Maybe I'm wrong, I pray that if I am wrong I will be shown the errors in my thoughts and that if I'm not that you will find Christ.

[Jesef]

I don’t care what you think or believe about me, mg - doesn’t matter one bit. Believe as you wish & move along.

[diligently seeking]

I had a friend appear to me in a dream. This was some 4 or 5 years after he committed suicide. He visited me as a uncertain and emotionaly hurting 10 to 12 year old child. We both were in our early 20's when he took his life. We were best of friends growing up. In my dream my dear friend asked me if I loved him . With emotion I knelt down by him took him in my arms rocking him and reassured him of my love-- telling him over and over of this fact. I feel strongly my friend is progressing. The deep hurt and troubled emotions of those who take their own lives is a direct result (what ever the varied reasons are--- from not benefiting from healing affects of LOVE in their life. In such cases the vacuum of darkness consumes and poor decisions dominate.

My twin and I are the youngest in our large family. Our Father was an abusive man to my siblings and mother. As a youth he suffered a traumatic injury to the frontal lobal part of his brain the part that affects personality. When all of us in my 29th year in life were asked to rush to the hospital because our father had suffered a major heart attack and was on the brink of death 7 of my 9 siblings were able to be there. There was not a moist eye among us when after 6 hours of multiple surgeons trying to save our fathers life, we were told he had passed. I was asked to give a talk at his funeral. The night before his funeral in a meditative state I reflected on my fathers life. Though I was very young when after 27 years my parents divorced and as a result had minimal damage-- I determined to give a stern talk on my fathers poor decisions made and then come back " with a increase of love toward the end of the talk. Preparing my talk I felt impressed to read the scripture where Christ has come with healing in his wings for those who fear and believe. You see though my father lacked severely as a husband and father--- he was a believer in Christ... it was in this moment where I was given a brief vision where my father when he passed was embraced by Christ... I opted not to be stern in my talk. I spoke and bore tender wittness of the benevolent mercy of our great advocate Jesus the Christ. I wept. Many wept as a result of the beauty and power of Christ's atonement... Would we want Jesus any other way!?

[h_p]

As a teenager, I battled a lot of depression and loneliness. I contemplated suicide many times. I certainly had the means to end it all pretty quickly if I had chosen to, but what kept me from going through with it was the fear that what I'd be doing would put me in an even worse place. While I'll never know if I really had the guts to blow my brains out, I can't say what my thought process would have been if I hadn't been taught that suicide was a sin and would send me to hell. If I didn't believe in an afterlife at all, I'm pretty sure ending my life would have been a lot more attractive option at the time.

It was God's grace shown through some loving, Christlike people that pulled me out of that dark period of my life, after many years of suffering. My views on suicide are a lot more complex now, but all I can say is that I'm grateful that the fear of God's punishment was put into me back then by what I was taught. I believe each individual person who is in a place dark enough to consider ending their lives will react to what they are told about suicide differently. I just hope that what the church is teaching now about it will help more than hurt.

Whatever the church's doctrine winds up being, I hope everyone is taught that running from their problems is not the answer. You will not make things better by killing yourself, because your soul is eternal. God is powerful enough to get even the lowliest of sinners through whatever fire they're in.

[Sunain]

I am really saddened that so many of you are so focused on judging others that you immediately focus on arguing about what is or is not a sin. I sincerely wish people here would focus more on what Elder Renlund told us to do.

I have yet to see a person here post that they aren't concerned about a person who's mental state is at the point where they are contemplating suicide. As Elder Renlund said, we want to help those in distress just as the Savior would want. No one is in disagreement there. We need to help these people get out of their awful state of misery and help them find joy in this life as the decisions they make in this life do affect the eternities. We are eternal beings currently in a mortal state.

Our Heavenly Father has the final judgement not us. The scriptures and prophets have made that clear that we do not judge others but to help them responsibly follow and uphold His commandments despite their personal trials.

That being said, what people here including myself are concerned about is that what Elder Renlund is saying in part of his message is contrary to the doctrine of the church and contrary to what prophets of God have taught.

"There's an old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin and that someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever. That is totally false. I believe that the vast majority of cases will find that these individuals have lived heroic lives and that that suicide will not be a defining characteristic of their eternities." Elder Renlund

Unfortunately, there is so much false doctrine in that statement, but let's break it all down with quotes from the scriptures and prophets. Mormon Scholar posted a good article on Elder Renlund's video also explaining why his quote is wrong:
http://mormonscholar.org/index.php/2018 ... damnation/

I don't believe that anyone that commits suicide or murders is heroic in anyway. I do feel sorry for them that their decisions and circumstances has led to that decision.

Sectarian Notion:
It is not a sectarian notion when members of the church call someone to repentance for their sinful behavior. We are commanded to preach repentance in all its forms. The damned to hell forever part is obviously not something the church has taught though, only that they may be judged unworthy to gain the highest degrees of glory.

Alma 37:33 Preach unto them repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ; teach them to humble themselves and to be meek and lowly in heart; teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

President Packer taught that even the threat of suicide is offensive to God.

To threaten or to take life, even our own in suicide, is to offend God, for He “in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.
Funerals—A Time for Reverence - Boyd K. Packer Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Suicide is a sin:

Suicide: By Elder M. Russell Ballard Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I draw an important conclusion from the words of the Prophet [Joseph Smith]: Suicide is a sin—a very grievous one, yet the Lord will not judge the person who commits that sin strictly by the act itself. The Lord will look at that person’s circumstances and the degree of his accountability at the time of the act. Of course, this gives us no reason to excuse ourselves in committing sins, nor will the Lord excuse us, if I understand correctly.

Euthanasia (Assisted Suicide) is breaking the Commandments.

Euthanasia and Prolonging Life

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life, and is therefore opposed to euthanasia. Euthanasia is defined as deliberately putting to death a person who is suffering from an incurable condition or disease. Such a deliberate act ends life immediately through, for example, so-called assisted suicide. Ending a life in such a manner is a violation of the commandments of God.

[brianj]

I am really saddened that so many of you are so focused on judging others that you immediately focus on arguing about what is or is not a sin. I sincerely wish people here would focus more on what Elder Renlund told us to do.

I have yet to see a person here post that they aren't concerned about a person who's mental state is at the point where they are contemplating suicide. As Elder Renlund said, we want to help those in distress just as the Savior would want. No one is in disagreement there. We need to help these people get out of their awful state of misery and help them find joy in this life as the decisions they make in this life do affect the eternities. We are eternal beings currently in a mortal state.

Our Heavenly Father has the final judgement not us. The scriptures and prophets have made that clear that we do not judge others but to help them responsibly follow and uphold His commandments despite their personal trials.

That being said, what people here including myself are concerned about is that what Elder Renlund is saying in part of his message is contrary to the doctrine of the church and contrary to what prophets of God have taught.

"There's an old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin and that someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever. That is totally false. I believe that the vast majority of cases will find that these individuals have lived heroic lives and that that suicide will not be a defining characteristic of their eternities." Elder Renlund

Unfortunately, there is so much false doctrine in that statement, but let's break it all down with quotes from the scriptures and prophets. Mormon Scholar posted a good article on Elder Renlund's video also explaining why his quote is wrong:
http://mormonscholar.org/index.php/2018 ... damnation/

I don't believe that anyone that commits suicide or murders is heroic in anyway. I do feel sorry for them that their decisions and circumstances has led to that decision.

Sectarian Notion:
It is not a sectarian notion when members of the church call someone to repentance for their sinful behavior. We are commanded to preach repentance in all its forms. The damned to hell forever part is obviously not something the church has taught though, only that they may be judged unworthy to gain the highest degrees of glory.

Alma 37:33 Preach unto them repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ; teach them to humble themselves and to be meek and lowly in heart; teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

President Packer taught that even the threat of suicide is offensive to God.

To threaten or to take life, even our own in suicide, is to offend God, for He “in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.
Funerals—A Time for Reverence - Boyd K. Packer Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Suicide is a sin:

Suicide: By Elder M. Russell Ballard Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I draw an important conclusion from the words of the Prophet [Joseph Smith]: Suicide is a sin—a very grievous one, yet the Lord will not judge the person who commits that sin strictly by the act itself. The Lord will look at that person’s circumstances and the degree of his accountability at the time of the act. Of course, this gives us no reason to excuse ourselves in committing sins, nor will the Lord excuse us, if I understand correctly.

Euthanasia (Assisted Suicide) is breaking the Commandments.

Euthanasia and Prolonging Life

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life, and is therefore opposed to euthanasia. Euthanasia is defined as deliberately putting to death a person who is suffering from an incurable condition or disease. Such a deliberate act ends life immediately through, for example, so-called assisted suicide. Ending a life in such a manner is a violation of the commandments of God.

I interpreted Elder Renlund through a lens of propositional logic.
false and false = false
false and true = false
true and false = false
true and true = false

Therefore when I saw his statement as " suicide is a sin" AND "someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever" = false.

I also viewed his statement through the lens of my background. If I take an action that is suicidal but saves lives, is it a sin? I recall someone who served on a submarine in World War 2 and had been read in on Project Ultra. The submarine was hit and sinking. While the rest of the crew prepared to abandon ship he contemplated that if he was captured he would be tortured to the point where he gave up secrets. He went to the galley, poured himself a cup of coffee, and waited to drown in the sub. What if he had been captured and forced to give up the secret? How would the Japanese and Nazis have responded to learning their encryption had been broken? How many more lives would have been lost in that war?

Suicide is usually a sin, hopefully we can agree on this. But suicide doesn't cause one to be banished to hell forever, I hope we can also agree on this. If you interpret his words as two separate and distinct comments then I can see the source of your outrage. But interpreting it as one statement will change the meaning.

[Sunain]

Therefore when I saw his statement as " suicide is a sin" AND "someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever" = false.

It's possible that's what he intended to say but it isn't what he said. There is enough lawyers in the 12 to have picked up on that, as many of us in this forum did, if the statement was to have been said or worded any differently.

If he had said:
"There's an old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin and that someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever. That is totally false."

I'd be totally fine with what he said as it aligns with what past prophets and apostles have said.

I also viewed his statement through the lens of my background. If I take an action that is suicidal but saves lives, is it a sin? I recall someone who served on a submarine in World War 2 and had been read in on Project Ultra.

Risking ones life to save another isn't suicidal though. A parent would risk everything including their life to protect their children.

The Japanese in World War 2 were often known to be kamikaze. That is suicidal even in a state of war.

Suicide is regarded as self-murder and a grievous sin if committed by someone in full possession of his or her mental faculties. Because it is possible that a person who takes his or her own life may not be responsible for that action, only God can judge such a matter.
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Murder

My belief on the subject of suicide completely aligns with what is said about it in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

Suicide is usually a sin, hopefully we can agree on this. But suicide doesn't cause one to be banished to hell forever, I hope we can also agree on this. If you interpret his words as two separate and distinct comments then I can see the source of your outrage. But interpreting it as one statement will change the meaning.

Suicide is usually a sin. We agree completely on that. President Ballard, the current head of the quorum of the 12 quoted Joseph Smith and that's enough for me on the subject. There will be some instances and circumstances where suicide will be judged differently than others and I agree with that, but Heavenly Father will be the one to make that decision and that is in line with what the apostles and prophets have previously said on the subject. But I think that for a majority of suicides, they are not heroic deaths or lives but a tragic way to end ones mortal existence and are completely preventable deaths.

I believe in eternal progression. Just as we learn and progress in this life, so we will continue throughout eternity, I guess until we reach a state of Godhood, if we are so inclined to do that. I see murder and suicide as being major roadblocks on our eternal progression and from what prophets have taught, it may hinder our ability to progress as far as we could have.

The big issue I think for this whole suicide LDS.org sub-site is that a lot of young gay members of the church are committing suicide in Utah. Apparently, these gay members believe that they can't live up to the gospel's teachings that homosexuality is a sin, so instead of trying to overcome that issue in their lives, they compound the problem by committing suicide. I definitely think God will judge these instances harshly contrary to what Elder Renlund is really trying to dance around with these videos by trying to reassure parents that their won't be eternal consequences. They know better because they have been taught correct gospel principles. They have the Light of Christ and The Gift of the Holy Ghost to let them know that suicide is the wrong choice. Suicide, like murder, thwarts God's Plan of Salvation for his children and that is what Satan wants.

[David13]

Suicide is the easy way out. The coward's way out.

Yes, facing life is tough.

And then there is misinterpretation. I couldn't count the number of times I have been misinterpreted.

Of late some insist since I am planning my final resting place, and all that goes with it, that I am 'depressed', unhappy, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I wore my skull and bones tie to church last week. It is a reminder that we are mortal, that we all leave this mortal existence at some time.

Memento Mori.

Here in town we were making our coffins. One fellow has made two, and used one so far. (Not for him, for a previous wife)

dc

[Jesef]

Suicide, and life in general, may not be as serious as some think. If MMP is true, then it certainly isn't. Maybe these souls needed a longer resting period before coming down to face physical life's challenges again. We don't really know. Just a bunch of quotes and opinions, claiming to be God's view. Death isn't the end, in any case. Why do we humans feel the need to have a pat judgment ready for every event? We don't know, so why do we care to form a solid position on the uncertain/unknown?

[Finrock]

I believe that you made the following assertion: If you believe that suicide is NOT a sin, then you must (as a logical necessity) also believe that assisted suicide is NOT a sin.

If I understand you correctly, then please show me why/how your assertion is true. Please show me the logic. Perhaps provide the rationale that you heard/read/saw that convinced you that belief in X means that you must also believe in Y.

This is not a trick question.

-Finrock

And if it's your life to take, then it is your life to ask someone to help you take your own life. Which means assisted-suicide is not a sin.

Yes, that is your assertion, your conclusion, your claim. Now, can you please demonstrate/show/provide the logic/argument that shows the connection and that proves your assertion, your conclusion, your claim?

-Finrock

Umm, this is ridiculous. 2+2=4, now please demonstrate/show/provide the logic/argument that 2+2=4.

mgridle1, Math is a science. We understand 2+2=4 because it has been proven using the rules of formal math.

Here is the proof that 2+2=4 based on the rules of formal mathematics: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/as2446/224.pdf

mgridle1 says: If you don't believe suicide is a sin you also must not (by logical necessity) believe that assisted suicide is a sin.

Your statement is not true. You are treating it like an axiom or some settled question. It isn't. If I think suicide is not a sin it does not then by logical necessity (as you asserted) mean that I also believe assisted suicide is not a sin. Because you claim that I must believe in assisted suicide by logical necessity, you ought to prove this claim. But you cannot and I know you will not.

All of us can safely believe as Renlund does and still not support assisted suicide. To bring assisted suicide in to the conversation/discussion is a red herring and ultimately an argument of irrelevance.

-Finrock

[mgridle1]

And if it's your life to take, then it is your life to ask someone to help you take your own life. Which means assisted-suicide is not a sin.

Yes, that is your assertion, your conclusion, your claim. Now, can you please demonstrate/show/provide the logic/argument that shows the connection and that proves your assertion, your conclusion, your claim?

-Finrock

Umm, this is ridiculous. 2+2=4, now please demonstrate/show/provide the logic/argument that 2+2=4.

mgridle1, Math is a science. We understand 2+2=4 because it has been proven using the rules of formal math.

Here is the proof that 2+2=4 based on the rules of formal mathematics: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/as2446/224.pdf

mgridle1 says: If you don't believe suicide is a sin you also must not (by logical necessity) believe that assisted suicide is a sin.

Your statement is not true. You are treating it like an axiom or some settled question. It isn't. If I think suicide is not a sin it does not then by logical necessity (as you asserted) mean that I also believe assisted suicide is not a sin. Because you claim that I must believe in assisted suicide by logical necessity, you ought to prove this claim. But you cannot and I know you will not.

All of us can safely believe as Renlund does and still not support assisted suicide. To bring assisted suicide in to the conversation/discussion is a red herring and ultimately an argument of irrelevance.

-Finrock

You don't even know what a red herring is.

No you cannot-it will logically fall that to say that suicide is not a sin it MUST mean that to assist in a suicide is not a sin.

How in the world can assisting in something that is not a bad thing to do be bad. You have YET to provide me with an example. You claim you know logic, yet you don't. You won't and refuse to provide an example.

I can dispute the rules of math all day long and say you haven't PROVEN it to me . . .you are doing the same thing here, you want me to PROVE to you what I am saying is true. I've asked you multiple times, how can I prove it to you?

You refuse to answer HOW I can prove it to you, which means therefore that I CAN'T prove it to you b/c NOTHING I say will convince you otherwise.

Which means, what you are saying is simply a belief system-you have nothing more to base your opinion of it except on believe.

Ancient indians believed that sacrificing young children to the sun god provided power . . .that is all it is for you a belief system.

[mgridle1]

I'll make it easy for you.

Suicide is not a sin. Therefore if I want to commit suicide I have the solemn right to do so and it is not wrong or evil to do so.

I am disabled so that I can't take my own life but b/c I have the solemn right to do so and it is NOT a sin so it logically follows that to ask someone to assist me in killing myself is not a sin.

I want them to kill me, I beg, I plead, I ask them to kill me. Killing myself is not a sin, therefore asking someone to kill me when I can't do it myself is not a sin.

But you have a belief system about this (for whatever reason) and therefore logical analysis of this issue is completely foreign to you and will result in nothing.

This same piece of logic is applied to homosexuality that no one wants to recognize.

Identifying as a homosexual is not a sin. Therefore identifying as a pedophile is not a sin. Since marching in PRIDE parades and proclaiming one is a homosexual is 100% in line (now, I guess) with the Gospel (I don't think so, but whatever), then marching in a parade loudly proclaiming one is a pedophile is 100% okay.

[Finrock]

Jesus is not this angry person who is ready to punish you or cause you harm. Jesus is a healer. Jesus takes in to account everything from our lives when he chastises us, directs us, counsels us, or corrects us. Any final judgements made by Jesus will be done based on His omniscience and His infinite mercy/justice. But, Jesus has said He is an advocate, He is meek, lowly of heart, kind, gentle, understanding, etc.

We don't know why someone committed suicide. We can't really know even if we are really close to a person. We don't know their mental health, their situation, their circumstance, the state of mind, their intent, etc. The amount of knowledge we lack about any given individual's decision to commit suicide is so large that we cannot make a righteous judgement about these individuals.

I don't think suicide is a good thing. I don't think that it is the answer and I would do everything in my power to help save another person's life. I don't think helping others commit suicide is a good thing. I would never consider it as a profession. However, if a person does commit suicide, I'm going to apply the maximum mercy and sympathy to them as I can because I just don't know the full picture. Perhaps they were being selfish, I don't deny that as a possibility or any other negative possibility, but I do know that the instinct for self-preservation is instinctual and foundational to human life. In order for that foundational instinct to be overwritten, it must be something extraordinary.

As a rape survivor and someone who struggles with PTSD due to childhood abuse, I can understand the mental anguish and difficulties that people can have. Due to know fault of mine, I felt completely worthless at one point in my life. At one point I felt that me being alive was more harmful and painful to my family than me being dead. I felt that I would actually be serving my family and helping them out if I was no longer in the picture because I felt that I was worthless and that I was causing so much pain and harm to my family. This was not rational. This wasn't reasonable. I was diluted in my thinking but I couldn't do anything about how I felt at the time and it seemed very rational and even good to contemplate ending my life. In the end, it was Jesus who rescued me from that situation. It wasn't because I did anything awesome or that I was able to magically change my mind, etc. But, in a last desperate plea for mercy, I called out to Jesus and He came down and broke through the prison of darkness I was living in.

I don't care what anyone else thinks. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, really. I don't understand some of the sentiments that I see displayed on this forum at times. I know I needed and wanted someone, anyone, to show me mercy and kindness. I know I needed and wanted anyone to mourn with me, to be tender, kind, and merciful. I've experienced enough harshness, meanness, abuse, beatings, yelling, screaming, mocking, name calling, judging, and intolerance in my life. That is the last thing I needed or wanted then and its the last thing I need or want now. That being the case, I'm going to give everyone I can the maximum amount of sympathy, mercy, grace, goodness, and kindness that I can muster (which admittedly isn't always great). I wanted someone to look at me and be understanding of me and my struggles. To give me a chance. To believe the best of me. I've experienced enough of the opposite of these traits. I know from experience that being mean spirited, judgmental, harsh, self-righteous, intolerant, unsympathetic, indolent, etc. does not bring about the good and it doesn't really help individuals, especially individuals who have had a life of trials and difficulties. The way Jesus treated me when I was in the middle of my spiritual prison is the way I want to treat others. Because of my experience with Jesus, I feel that I would be betraying Him and that I would be a hypocrite if I didn't do or attempt to do and act as He did in all of my interactions with others.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Yes, that is your assertion, your conclusion, your claim. Now, can you please demonstrate/show/provide the logic/argument that shows the connection and that proves your assertion, your conclusion, your claim?

-Finrock

Umm, this is ridiculous. 2+2=4, now please demonstrate/show/provide the logic/argument that 2+2=4.

mgridle1, Math is a science. We understand 2+2=4 because it has been proven using the rules of formal math.

Here is the proof that 2+2=4 based on the rules of formal mathematics: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/as2446/224.pdf

mgridle1 says: If you don't believe suicide is a sin you also must not (by logical necessity) believe that assisted suicide is a sin.

Your statement is not true. You are treating it like an axiom or some settled question. It isn't. If I think suicide is not a sin it does not then by logical necessity (as you asserted) mean that I also believe assisted suicide is not a sin. Because you claim that I must believe in assisted suicide by logical necessity, you ought to prove this claim. But you cannot and I know you will not.

All of us can safely believe as Renlund does and still not support assisted suicide. To bring assisted suicide in to the conversation/discussion is a red herring and ultimately an argument of irrelevance.

-Finrock

You don't even know what a red herring is.

No you cannot-it will logically fall that to say that suicide is not a sin it MUST mean that to assist in a suicide is not a sin.

How in the world can assisting in something that is not a bad thing to do be bad. You have YET to provide me with an example. You claim you know logic, yet you don't. You won't and refuse to provide an example.

I can dispute the rules of math all day long and say you haven't PROVEN it to me . . .you are doing the same thing here, you want me to PROVE to you what I am saying is true. I've asked you multiple times, how can I prove it to you?

You refuse to answer HOW I can prove it to you, which means therefore that I CAN'T prove it to you b/c NOTHING I say will convince you otherwise.

Which means, what you are saying is simply a belief system-you have nothing more to base your opinion of it except on believe.

Ancient indians believed that sacrificing young children to the sun god provided power . . .that is all it is for you a belief system.

I've read your post. Have a good day.

-Finrock