Elder Renlund on Suicide

[Finrock]

Nobody chooses to become depressed. Having depression is invisible. You can't see it, like you can see the effects of cancer on a person. So, there is this strange misunderstanding and this strange tendency for people to blame a person who commits suicide when in fact those who commit suicide are victims of a mental illness

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Well what counts as being depressed to you? I was diagnosed by at least 7 practitioners including at least two phychiatrists, 2 counselors, and regular doctors as having clinical depresion, anxiety, and ocd and needing medicine for one or all issues between the ages of 14-22. I went to therapy, had anxiety-related heart testing done, took years worth of pills, and did cognitive therapy workbooks. Does that count?

So I guess the "mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness" is pretty flawed. Because I just decided to treat myself like I was normal, and I became normal.

(isnt that what cognitive therapy is??)

Sounds to me like a lot of people need a wake up call like I had.

Edit: Every workbook I was ever given on mental health said the same thing. "If you're feeling depressed and you dont have the motivation to do anything or be happy, FORCE YOURSELF TO, then eventually the desire will come to you. Actions first, then emotions."

So that sounds like snap out of it to me.

You would never say the things that you have said to a person who has cancer, yet, mental illness and cancer are both diseases/illnesses. The brain is an organ just like any other organ. When the chemistry in the brain is out of whack or when your brain is affected by an illness, you don't just decide one day that this illness goes away, just like you don't just decide one day that you no longer want cancer and it just goes away. Again, if you believe this, then you don't know what depression is.

It actually sounds like it took many years and a lot of work to treat your depression, if that is the illness that you had. You clearly didn't just decide one day that you don't have depression. Plus, there is such a thing as cognitive dissonance and denial. Also, depression often comes in phases, not as an ongoing thing. You may have months or even years of no symptoms. Perhaps you were misdiagnosed. Depression is also on a spectrum. Some depression is more severe than others.

Depression is not just feeling no motivation every once in a while. It isn't just feeling stressed from normal life. It isn't just feeling sad for a bit. It is a multitude of symptoms and conditions that persist for a significant amount of time.

Depression causes physical pain. It causes emotional pain. It causes you to feel like you are in this fog. You can't relate. You feel isolated, you feel anger, you can feel anxiety. You feel guilt and shame because you can't just snap out of it and you blame yourself which increases the pain. I suffer from depression. It is very hard. I was in denial for many years. I kept blaming myself. I kept thinking that all I need to do is just trust in Jesus and I'll be good to go. I kept thinking I must lack faith and be this horrible sinner because regardless of what I forced myself to do and regardless of how much faith I had in Jesus, I still was stuck in this little hell. I was too proud at one point to consider that I had a mental illness. That was for sissies and people who were weak, not someone like me.

No rational person is going to conclude that the mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness is flawed, much less very flawed, based on your personal experiences. Sorry.

I'd be interested in knowing what workbooks you've been reading. Cognitive therapy can help, but, its still not the same as "snapping out of it". That is one of those ignorant beliefs that people have about mental illness and its why people judge those who have depression. You would never tell a cancer patient to just "snap out of it". It is just as silly to tell a person who has a mental illness to snap out of it as it is to tell a person who has cancer to snap out of it. The silliness level is 100% the same. The data shows that depression is best overcome with a combination of medications and cognitive therapy. Of course there are always outliers and there are always the exceptions. No person, no situation, is exactly the same. But, the outliers and the exceptions don't define the rule and we don't judge others based on those outliers.

I don't want to be a victim. I don't want to have depression. I don't want to feel physical pain everyday. I don't want to feel isolated, lonely, worthless, useless. I don't want to feel no happiness in any activity. I don't want to lose interest in things that I used to like. I don't want to wake up some mornings and just not want to get out of bed. I don't want to feel deep sorrow and sadness for no reason at all.

Then you say that people want to be victims? Come on? Seriously? Do you think when I was 4 years old, the first time I remember being raped, that I wanted that? Do you think I really wanted to be molested, raped, and abused, repeatedly, for years? Come on. Can't you see how ignorant it is for you to say that people want to be victims?

No, people want to be happy. Mental illness is real. People who have mental illness have tried to snap out of it and it doesn't work. People with mental illness have exercised faith in Jesus, and it didn't work. Luckily for me, when I was being extended a significant priesthood calling, I confessed to my Stake President that I was struggling with these feelings/issues, which I hadn't at that point completely identified, and I remember him saying to me, "Brother, don't you think its time you stop trying to fix yourself and you get some help?" I couldn't deny it. I was like, yeah, you're right. What I have been doing hasn't done the trick. That was my first step in becoming humbled by my trials as opposed to thinking I was "all that" and more who could deal with all of this on my own.

-Finrock

[Michelle]

One of my concerns with the justifications for suicide is that I believe that we are on the verge of a huge push for elderly people to commit suicide. In modern language "medical aid in dying."

In Doctrine and Covenants there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven: the shedding of innocent blood.

I worry that as the world encourages the elderly to just "take a pill" and end it and as caregivers encourage the same for their parents that many may find themselves committing a terrible sin.

I am going to refrain from commenting on suicide related to depression.

[Finrock]

Nobody chooses to become depressed. Having depression is invisible. You can't see it, like you can see the effects of cancer on a person. So, there is this strange misunderstanding and this strange tendency for people to blame a person who commits suicide when in fact those who commit suicide are victims of a mental illness

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Depression can be addictive. and so it can also be a cop out. It is often easier to be a victim than to admit that there are things you could do to change your life and reduce the depression drastically. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but the general reason most people feel depression is because they are not living their life the way they should (or the way their spirit knows they should). This can be a mix of multiple factors. These factors can be 1) lack of sleep 2) lack of being in nature 3) lack of doing things of true worth 4) lack of proper nutrition and 5) this combination or mix thereof allows evil and/or unclean spirits to attach and influence us to feel even worse than we normally would with those things. Modern cities are prisons without walls. People don't know why, but they feel trapped, like they can't escape.

This is false.

I find it fascinating that you believe yourself to be the authority and judge on what society is and should be. As an aside, I have had depression. No it doesn't take a snap of a finger to get out of it, but it does take a change in living and in attitude or perspective. This can be short or it can take a while to change, but just like most addictions, it can be overcome when you find something to replace the deep feeling of depression. It is hard to find something that will fill that deep feeling that sits inside of you that will no longer be there once you give up the depression. It takes a leap of faith. It can be done and it can be overcome and doesn't always take a life time if we make the right changes. It can take minutes, to hours, to days, to months - the timing depends on individual faith and their ability to change your life whether it is fast of slow. All of it depends on how much we search for the specific reasons why depression is occurring within us. Like I said, I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but for the vast majority of cases we can fix ourselves and fairly quickly at that. Once we mentally understand and believe and then act, it really is a just "snap out of it" act. We realize we are no longer depressed and don't need to be.

You are right in that depression can be treated, just like cancer can be treated or any other illness or disease can be treated. If left untreated, you can die. But, it has very little to do with a person's worthiness, righteousness, goodness, faith, etc. You would never tell a person who has cancer that they must have allowed themselves to be influenced by evil spirits, etc. Yeah, most people who are just feeling a little blue, maybe had a bad day, week, or month, or a death in the family, can easily find a solution using the methods that you describe. But, normal life stressors and normal life disappointments are not mental illness and don't constitute depression. Depression causes a person to feel horrible for no reason whatsoever. They can be doing everything right. You can be living healthily and living righteously and still suffer from depression.

-Finrock

[Serragon]

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Well what counts as being depressed to you? I was diagnosed by at least 7 practitioners including at least two phychiatrists, 2 counselors, and regular doctors as having clinical depresion, anxiety, and ocd and needing medicine for one or all issues between the ages of 14-22. I went to therapy, had anxiety-related heart testing done, took years worth of pills, and did cognitive therapy workbooks. Does that count?

So I guess the "mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness" is pretty flawed. Because I just decided to treat myself like I was normal, and I became normal.

(isnt that what cognitive therapy is??)

Sounds to me like a lot of people need a wake up call like I had.

Edit: Every workbook I was ever given on mental health said the same thing. "If you're feeling depressed and you dont have the motivation to do anything or be happy, FORCE YOURSELF TO, then eventually the desire will come to you. Actions first, then emotions."

So that sounds like snap out of it to me.

You would never say the things that you have said to a person who has cancer, yet, mental illness and cancer are both diseases/illnesses. The brain is an organ just like any other organ. When the chemistry in the brain is out of whack or when your brain is affected by an illness, you don't just decide one day that this illness goes away, just like you don't just decide one day that you no longer want cancer and it just goes away. Again, if you believe this, then you don't know what depression is.

It actually sounds like it took many years and a lot of work to treat your depression, if that is the illness that you had. You clearly didn't just decide one day that you don't have depression. Plus, there is such a thing as cognitive dissonance and denial. Also, depression often comes in phases, not as an ongoing thing. You may have months or even years of no symptoms. Perhaps you were misdiagnosed. Depression is also on a spectrum. Some depression is more severe than others.

Depression is not just feeling no motivation every once in a while. It isn't just feeling stressed from normal life. It isn't just feeling sad for a bit. It is a multitude of symptoms and conditions that persist for a significant amount of time.

Depression causes physical pain. It causes emotional pain. It causes you to feel like you are in this fog. You can't relate. You feel isolated, you feel anger, you can feel anxiety. You feel guilt and shame because you can't just snap out of it and you blame yourself which increases the pain. I suffer from depression. It is very hard. I was in denial for many years. I kept blaming myself. I kept thinking that all I need to do is just trust in Jesus and I'll be good to go. I kept thinking I must lack faith and be this horrible sinner because regardless of what I forced myself to do and regardless of how much faith I had in Jesus, I still was stuck in this little hell. I was too proud at one point to consider that I had a mental illness. That was for sissies and people who were weak, not someone like me.

No rational person is going to conclude that the mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness is flawed, much less very flawed, based on your personal experiences. Sorry.

I'd be interested in knowing what workbooks you've been reading. Cognitive therapy can help, but, its still not the same as "snapping out of it". That is one of those ignorant beliefs that people have about mental illness and its why people judge those who have depression. You would never tell a cancer patient to just "snap out of it". It is just as silly to tell a person who has a mental illness to snap out of it as it is to tell a person who has cancer to snap out of it. The silliness level is 100% the same. The data shows that depression is best overcome with a combination of medications and cognitive therapy. Of course there are always outliers and there are always the exceptions. No person, no situation, is exactly the same. But, the outliers and the exceptions don't define the rule and we don't judge others based on those outliers.

I don't want to be a victim. I don't want to have depression. I don't want to feel physical pain everyday. I don't want to feel isolated, lonely, worthless, useless. I don't want to feel no happiness in any activity. I don't want to lose interest in things that I used to like. I don't want to wake up some mornings and just not want to get out of bed. I don't want to feel deep sorrow and sadness for no reason at all.

Then you say that people want to be victims? Come on? Seriously? Do you think when I was 4 years old, the first time I remember being raped, that I wanted that? Do you think I really wanted to be molested, raped, and abused, repeatedly, for years? Come on. Can't you see how ignorant it is for you to say that people want to be victims?

No, people want to be happy. Mental illness is real. People who have mental illness have tried to snap out of it and it doesn't work. People with mental illness have exercised faith in Jesus, and it didn't work. Luckily for me, when I was being extended a significant priesthood calling, I confessed to my Stake President that I was struggling with these feelings/issues, which I hadn't at that point completely identified, and I remember him saying to me, "Brother, don't you think its time you stop trying to fix yourself and you get some help?" I couldn't deny it. I was like, yeah, you're right. What I have been doing hasn't done the trick. That was my first step in becoming humbled by my trials as opposed to thinking I was "all that" and more who could deal with all of this on my own.

-Finrock

Cancer and mental illness are not at all comparable.

Cancer is almost always diagnosed by blood tests or biopsy. Mental illness, especially depression, is typically diagnosed by speculation. There is no brain chemical pattern to identify depression or any other mental illness.

The existence of real mental illness does not lead to the conclusion that all or most of those diagnosed actually have that condition.

The existence of true victims of abuse, like yourself, does not mean that others do not seek victim status. The fact that you personally do not want to be a victim does not mean others do not.

[Finrock]

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Well what counts as being depressed to you? I was diagnosed by at least 7 practitioners including at least two phychiatrists, 2 counselors, and regular doctors as having clinical depresion, anxiety, and ocd and needing medicine for one or all issues between the ages of 14-22. I went to therapy, had anxiety-related heart testing done, took years worth of pills, and did cognitive therapy workbooks. Does that count?

So I guess the "mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness" is pretty flawed. Because I just decided to treat myself like I was normal, and I became normal.

(isnt that what cognitive therapy is??)

Sounds to me like a lot of people need a wake up call like I had.

Edit: Every workbook I was ever given on mental health said the same thing. "If you're feeling depressed and you dont have the motivation to do anything or be happy, FORCE YOURSELF TO, then eventually the desire will come to you. Actions first, then emotions."

So that sounds like snap out of it to me.

You would never say the things that you have said to a person who has cancer, yet, mental illness and cancer are both diseases/illnesses. The brain is an organ just like any other organ. When the chemistry in the brain is out of whack or when your brain is affected by an illness, you don't just decide one day that this illness goes away, just like you don't just decide one day that you no longer want cancer and it just goes away. Again, if you believe this, then you don't know what depression is.

It actually sounds like it took many years and a lot of work to treat your depression, if that is the illness that you had. You clearly didn't just decide one day that you don't have depression. Plus, there is such a thing as cognitive dissonance and denial. Also, depression often comes in phases, not as an ongoing thing. You may have months or even years of no symptoms. Perhaps you were misdiagnosed. Depression is also on a spectrum. Some depression is more severe than others.

Depression is not just feeling no motivation every once in a while. It isn't just feeling stressed from normal life. It isn't just feeling sad for a bit. It is a multitude of symptoms and conditions that persist for a significant amount of time.

Depression causes physical pain. It causes emotional pain. It causes you to feel like you are in this fog. You can't relate. You feel isolated, you feel anger, you can feel anxiety. You feel guilt and shame because you can't just snap out of it and you blame yourself which increases the pain. I suffer from depression. It is very hard. I was in denial for many years. I kept blaming myself. I kept thinking that all I need to do is just trust in Jesus and I'll be good to go. I kept thinking I must lack faith and be this horrible sinner because regardless of what I forced myself to do and regardless of how much faith I had in Jesus, I still was stuck in this little hell. I was too proud at one point to consider that I had a mental illness. That was for sissies and people who were weak, not someone like me.

No rational person is going to conclude that the mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness is flawed, much less very flawed, based on your personal experiences. Sorry.

I'd be interested in knowing what workbooks you've been reading. Cognitive therapy can help, but, its still not the same as "snapping out of it". That is one of those ignorant beliefs that people have about mental illness and its why people judge those who have depression. You would never tell a cancer patient to just "snap out of it". It is just as silly to tell a person who has a mental illness to snap out of it as it is to tell a person who has cancer to snap out of it. The silliness level is 100% the same. The data shows that depression is best overcome with a combination of medications and cognitive therapy. Of course there are always outliers and there are always the exceptions. No person, no situation, is exactly the same. But, the outliers and the exceptions don't define the rule and we don't judge others based on those outliers.

I don't want to be a victim. I don't want to have depression. I don't want to feel physical pain everyday. I don't want to feel isolated, lonely, worthless, useless. I don't want to feel no happiness in any activity. I don't want to lose interest in things that I used to like. I don't want to wake up some mornings and just not want to get out of bed. I don't want to feel deep sorrow and sadness for no reason at all.

Then you say that people want to be victims? Come on? Seriously? Do you think when I was 4 years old, the first time I remember being raped, that I wanted that? Do you think I really wanted to be molested, raped, and abused, repeatedly, for years? Come on. Can't you see how ignorant it is for you to say that people want to be victims?

No, people want to be happy. Mental illness is real. People who have mental illness have tried to snap out of it and it doesn't work. People with mental illness have exercised faith in Jesus, and it didn't work. Luckily for me, when I was being extended a significant priesthood calling, I confessed to my Stake President that I was struggling with these feelings/issues, which I hadn't at that point completely identified, and I remember him saying to me, "Brother, don't you think its time you stop trying to fix yourself and you get some help?" I couldn't deny it. I was like, yeah, you're right. What I have been doing hasn't done the trick. That was my first step in becoming humbled by my trials as opposed to thinking I was "all that" and more who could deal with all of this on my own.

-Finrock

Cancer and mental illness are not at all comparable.

Cancer is almost always diagnosed by blood tests or biopsy. Mental illness, especially depression, is typically diagnosed by speculation. There is no brain chemical pattern to identify depression or any other mental illness.

They are both diseases. Most people don't choose to get a disease. Mental illness, to include depression, is considered an actual disease and illness by medical science. Depression/mental illness is hardly ever diagnosed by speculation by competent medical professionals (this was your most ridiculous statement). Both cancer and mental illness need to be medically treated. Both cancer and mental illness do not go away through wishful thinking and snapping your fingers. Look it up. I just proved your statement false, btw.

The existence of real mental illness does not lead to the conclusion that all or most of those diagnosed actually have that condition.

Sure, but, who cares? Because depression can be misdiagnosed doesn't mean that you or anyone else is in a position to judge whether someone has it or not and neither does it mean that most or all depression has been misdiagnosed.

The existence of true victims of abuse, like yourself, does not mean that others do not seek victim status. The fact that you personally do not want to be a victim does not mean others do not.

Sure, but, who cares? The fact that there might be people who want to be victims (and they are likely suffering from some mental illness) doesn't mean that most people do or that you or anyone else is in a position to make that judgment.

-Finrock

[Serragon]

They are both diseases. Most people don't choose to get a disease. Mental illness, to include depression, is considered an actual disease and illness by medical science. Depression/mental illness is hardly ever diagnosed by speculation by competent medical professionals (this was your most ridiculous statement). Both cancer and mental illness need to be medically treated. Both cancer and mental illness do not go away through wishful thinking and snapping your fingers. Look it up. I just proved your statement false, btw.

As you are so fond of pointing out to others, simply making an assertion does not prove someone wrong.

it is diagnosed by speculation. There is not reliable medical test to determine most mental illness, especially depression. It is simply diagnosed by talking. You would never find a doctor diagnosing cancer simply because you say you have some pain. You will find almost all depression diagnosed based upon nothing more than statements of the patient. Perhaps you could share the tests that were used for your diagnosis and we can see if it is speculation or not.

As Eliza so eloquently pointed out, her mental illness was diagnosed by multiple competent professionals. She was treated with myriad drugs and procedures. And it really was never an illness to begin with. Cancer definitely cannot go away with the snap of fingers. However, much of what is diagnosed as mental illness does.

I am not trying to minimize those people who do have an serious issue. I have members of my family who suffer with bi-polar disorder and the medication they receive has allowed them to live fully normal, functional lives. But, in my opinion, the over diagnosis of mental illness and the consequent effect on people is a serious problem.

Many people do want an excuse for their poor choices and bad behavior. Many people do want to be relieved of the responsibility of having to deal with their problems. Many people do want the status of being a victim without the actually being one as victimhood is the most valuable social currency today.

[jadd]

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Depression can be addictive. and so it can also be a cop out. It is often easier to be a victim than to admit that there are things you could do to change your life and reduce the depression drastically. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but the general reason most people feel depression is because they are not living their life the way they should (or the way their spirit knows they should). This can be a mix of multiple factors. These factors can be 1) lack of sleep 2) lack of being in nature 3) lack of doing things of true worth 4) lack of proper nutrition and 5) this combination or mix thereof allows evil and/or unclean spirits to attach and influence us to feel even worse than we normally would with those things. Modern cities are prisons without walls. People don't know why, but they feel trapped, like they can't escape.

This is false.

I find it fascinating that you believe yourself to be the authority and judge on what society is and should be. As an aside, I have had depression. No it doesn't take a snap of a finger to get out of it, but it does take a change in living and in attitude or perspective. This can be short or it can take a while to change, but just like most addictions, it can be overcome when you find something to replace the deep feeling of depression. It is hard to find something that will fill that deep feeling that sits inside of you that will no longer be there once you give up the depression. It takes a leap of faith. It can be done and it can be overcome and doesn't always take a life time if we make the right changes. It can take minutes, to hours, to days, to months - the timing depends on individual faith and their ability to change your life whether it is fast of slow. All of it depends on how much we search for the specific reasons why depression is occurring within us. Like I said, I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but for the vast majority of cases we can fix ourselves and fairly quickly at that. Once we mentally understand and believe and then act, it really is a just "snap out of it" act. We realize we are no longer depressed and don't need to be.

You are right in that depression can be treated, just like cancer can be treated or any other illness or disease can be treated. If left untreated, you can die. But, it has very little to do with a person's worthiness, righteousness, goodness, faith, etc. You would never tell a person who has cancer that they must have allowed themselves to be influenced by evil spirits, etc. Yeah, most people who are just feeling a little blue, maybe had a bad day, week, or month, or a death in the family, can easily find a solution using the methods that you describe. But, normal life stressors and normal life disappointments are not mental illness and don't constitute depression. Depression causes a person to feel horrible for no reason whatsoever. They can be doing everything right. You can be living healthily and living righteously and still suffer from depression.

-Finrock

You can't just say "This is False" and expect people to believe you. I could easily say "Everything you are saying is False." Boom, Trump card, I win (It doesn't work that way).

No, most people are not living their lives the way they should i.e exercising, getting enough sunlight, (Nature) sleeping properly, having LEGITIMATE prayers (most people make christmas lists), their consists of a love for mammon (money) and not for God or their fellow man. When anentire life consists of Wake up, shower, eat, got to work, come back, watch tv, eat, social media, talk briefly to you kids, go to sleep, no wonder we are depressed. That isn't life. That life literally consists of loving the world - no wonder my spirit shrinks at that (or anyone else). We've almost completely left God out of almost the entire day ( I still do and I know what I should be doing). Our lives are focused on loving Babylon all for money and lucre. Our society has a higher standard of living than any other society has in written history and we are extremely depressed.
Where are we multiplying and replenishing the earth? where are we loving our neighbor? Do we grow anything? We are always taking and taking, but very rarely giving back to the earth or those around us. Perhaps that is why depression is increasing so rapidly. Furthermore, just because someone is influenced by an evil spirit does not make them evil. The binary approach most appear to have on life is a likely influencer of depression as well. Just so you are aware ALL OF US are influenced by evil spirits. We have to choose good or evil every single day. I don't know why people think that just because they are following rules means that no evil spirit can influence them. They tempt us, they mess with our bodies, with our minds. There are times when we all have the most appalling thoughts and we are shocked to our very core - "How could I think that?" "Where did that come from?" We are sickened, those are often evil spirits. Just like other times when light or ideas come to our mind and we think "I know what I'll do" "It makes sense!" Or feel love outside of ourselves, that comes from Good Spirits/ the Holy Ghost. Do you not think that Satan rejoices when someone is depressed and doesn't want to do anything because of how they feel? Is it that far out of imagination to think that he might send a spirit or two or more to help keep someone in depression to prevent them from doing the good work they might otherwise?

Additionally I'm not disagreeing that you can be living "healthily and living righteously" when you become depressed. There were at least two periods where I suffered severe depression in my life. The first I thought I was living righteously, but was in fact "doing everything to the letter of the law" and judging everyone around me - I was not living the spirit of the law. I wasn't happy. Conversion changed me i.e Christ changed me I had to beg him on my knees and he gave me a new life. The second time was when I was living righteously (truly) but had been deceived by something which caused certain events to unfold. I was so depressed that even the thought of suicide was too much work. I wanted to literally cease to exist. I pushed through. At the root, it was caused by me desiring something that I shouldn't have and not being able to cope. This took me months to figure out. I didn't want to go to class, I didn't want to talk to people I wanted to cease to exist. I understand what depression is. I'm very aware of how it works. I'm also very aware of its addictive nature. Initially it was from a certain event (then a series of subsequent events). It was the hardest thing in the world for me to realize that I WANTED to feel this pain. It made me feel alive which is ironic because I wanted to die. This pain was so exquisite that I didn't think I could find anything ot replace it. I would feel empty. I enjoyed feeling that way - deeply hoping that someone would notice. IT took me a long time (longer than it should have) to figure that out and when I did, I made the conscious choice to stop. There is so much more I wish I could write on this but I don't have time and it would fall on deaf ears.

My heart goes out to those with depression - before my first experience I judged them and didn't understand the process in fact I"m sure part of the reason I had that experience is so that it could teach me to love and understand. That is why I also know that depression is often caused by the agents i listed previously. It can also be caused by half of the medicine we take in modern society. birth control pills can cause depression (interestingly it is a rejection of the multiply the earth commandment), almost any drug anyone takes can cause depression. We are so medicated looking for a quick fix that we've dug ourselves into deep trenches and don't know how to get out because we trust so much in man. That should say something about us eating correctly and taking what we should (word of wisdom). Most medicine is a bastardized version of something natural. It is a synthetic forrn of something found in nature (there are exceptions, of course). However, what we are doing to our bodies weakens our minds and our bodies and allows the adversaries angels to influence us more and more. The best way to help those with depression is not to enable, but to lift up and strengthen. We can love them, but also help them realize that much of it is a choice to change their life in whatever way they need to in order to find peace.

Most of us are truly afraid of being introspective and realizing that we really aren't as good as we think we are. It is hard to realize how unrighteous most of us are (including myself). True vulnerability is hard, but when we embrace it we find power. When we finally embrace that aspect and realize that we really are less than the "dust" of the Earth, but that somehow in God's eyes we are His Glory and he loves us, when we finally marry those two ideas together (and actually believe it) it gives us power to overcome almost anything. Despite the fact that I feel worthless and I don't want to live, God loves me and makes up for what I lack. I have faith in that and that hope, that dream, is part of what brings you out of the pit of despair because you realized you can't do it alone. (When I say You, I mean Us).

Being willing to change ourselves and listen to God rather than making excuses as to why we can't do things keeps us in a state of depression. We are loving the world more than Him. We worship the works of our own hands rather than Him. It's in the very nature of our society and most of us were/are taught to worship Babylon from our youth (even though we think we aren't).

TL;DR - Just saying it is false doesn't make it so. Most of us really aren't living our lives the way we should even though we think we are - there are certain exceptions. Everyone is influenced by evil spirits or at least surrounded by them. We live our lives monotonously without giving back. Self introspection is hard and upon truly looking at our root selves we find out we're not that good. God makes us for it if we let him and that gives us power to change and power to overcome.

[Red]

Nobody chooses to become depressed. Having depression is invisible. You can't see it, like you can see the effects of cancer on a person. So, there is this strange misunderstanding and this strange tendency for people to blame a person who commits suicide when in fact those who commit suicide are victims of a mental illness

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Well what counts as being depressed to you? I was diagnosed by at least 7 practitioners including at least two phychiatrists, 2 counselors, and regular doctors as having clinical depresion, anxiety, and ocd and needing medicine for one or all issues between the ages of 14-22. I went to therapy, had anxiety-related heart testing done, took years worth of pills, and did cognitive therapy workbooks. Does that count?

So I guess the "mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness" is pretty flawed. Because I just decided to treat myself like I was normal, and I became normal.

(isnt that what cognitive therapy is??)

Sounds to me like a lot of people need a wake up call like I had.

Edit: Every workbook I was ever given on mental health said the same thing. "If you're feeling depressed and you dont have the motivation to do anything or be happy, FORCE YOURSELF TO, then eventually the desire will come to you. Actions first, then emotions."

So that sounds like snap out of it to me.

None of us here can say whether you were or were not depressed. I’m very glad that approach worked for you. I really am. It doesn’t work like that for most depressed people. I like Fin’s analogy. There are stories of miracles where people prayed and had the faith to eliminate cancer or extend their lives beyond what doctors said they would live but that mostly doesn’t happen. Depression is no different. I really wish it was.

[Red]

They are both diseases. Most people don't choose to get a disease. Mental illness, to include depression, is considered an actual disease and illness by medical science. Depression/mental illness is hardly ever diagnosed by speculation by competent medical professionals (this was your most ridiculous statement). Both cancer and mental illness need to be medically treated. Both cancer and mental illness do not go away through wishful thinking and snapping your fingers. Look it up. I just proved your statement false, btw.

As you are so fond of pointing out to others, simply making an assertion does not prove someone wrong.

it is diagnosed by speculation. There is not reliable medical test to determine most mental illness, especially depression. It is simply diagnosed by talking. You would never find a doctor diagnosing cancer simply because you say you have some pain. You will find almost all depression diagnosed based upon nothing more than statements of the patient. Perhaps you could share the tests that were used for your diagnosis and we can see if it is speculation or not.

As Eliza so eloquently pointed out, her mental illness was diagnosed by multiple competent professionals. She was treated with myriad drugs and procedures. And it really was never an illness to begin with. Cancer definitely cannot go away with the snap of fingers. However, much of what is diagnosed as mental illness does.

I am not trying to minimize those people who do have an serious issue. I have members of my family who suffer with bi-polar disorder and the medication they receive has allowed them to live fully normal, functional lives. But, in my opinion, the over diagnosis of mental illness and the consequent effect on people is a serious problem.

Many people do want an excuse for their poor choices and bad behavior. Many people do want to be relieved of the responsibility of having to deal with their problems. Many people do want the status of being a victim without the actually being one as victimhood is the most valuable social currency today.

I dunno, the treatments depressed people are given indicate that there’s less speculation than you’re suggesting. IF it was speculation, then how would they know what drugs to create? How would they have created TMS treatments? Diagnosis can’t be mostly speculation.

[Red]

Jadd 50, I have a lot in common with your experience and approaches yet I still have debilitating depression. I don’t want it. I hate it. I feel misunderstood by all those who have said it’s not an illness. It IS. I DONT WANT IT, yet I have it. I take care of myself. I exercise. I eat well. I go outside. I bought a couple dumb dogs bc they’re supposed to help depression. I have done everything I could think of to fix it, but it is a disease I can’t figure out how to get rid of. You know, when some gets cancer everyone thinks, well, that’s a trial God gave them. Depression isn’t different. Just because it happens in your head doesn’t mean your head can cure it.

Fin, I really appreciate this comment, “So, suicide is how the person died, depression is what killed them.”
I never thought of it that way. That’s very enlightening.

[Serragon]

They are both diseases. Most people don't choose to get a disease. Mental illness, to include depression, is considered an actual disease and illness by medical science. Depression/mental illness is hardly ever diagnosed by speculation by competent medical professionals (this was your most ridiculous statement). Both cancer and mental illness need to be medically treated. Both cancer and mental illness do not go away through wishful thinking and snapping your fingers. Look it up. I just proved your statement false, btw.

As you are so fond of pointing out to others, simply making an assertion does not prove someone wrong.

it is diagnosed by speculation. There is not reliable medical test to determine most mental illness, especially depression. It is simply diagnosed by talking. You would never find a doctor diagnosing cancer simply because you say you have some pain. You will find almost all depression diagnosed based upon nothing more than statements of the patient. Perhaps you could share the tests that were used for your diagnosis and we can see if it is speculation or not.

As Eliza so eloquently pointed out, her mental illness was diagnosed by multiple competent professionals. She was treated with myriad drugs and procedures. And it really was never an illness to begin with. Cancer definitely cannot go away with the snap of fingers. However, much of what is diagnosed as mental illness does.

I am not trying to minimize those people who do have an serious issue. I have members of my family who suffer with bi-polar disorder and the medication they receive has allowed them to live fully normal, functional lives. But, in my opinion, the over diagnosis of mental illness and the consequent effect on people is a serious problem.

Many people do want an excuse for their poor choices and bad behavior. Many people do want to be relieved of the responsibility of having to deal with their problems. Many people do want the status of being a victim without the actually being one as victimhood is the most valuable social currency today.

I dunno, the treatments depressed people are given indicate that there’s less speculation than you’re suggesting. IF it was speculation, then how would they know what drugs to create? How would they have created TMS treatments? Diagnosis can’t be mostly speculation.

These drugs have a general effect on people. They are formulated to make you feel a certain way. Whether you actually have an mental illness or you just feel a little down today, the effect will be the same. They can't treat a specific chemical imbalance since there is not a benchmark chemical pattern that is indicative of a specific type of mental illness. In fact, the idea that these things are due to chemical imbalances has not yet been proven, though in my opinion it seems the most likely.

My main point was that there is no real test to determine mental illness. It is just diagnosed by a doctor via conversations. There are no blood tests. There are no brain chemical tests. Just a doctor deciding you are or not based on their own feeling. The sad fact is that most mental illness, especially depression, can't be detected in a reliable way by any test.

it is also why many people can be diagnosed differently by various doctors. I know people who have shopped doctors until they were finally diagnosed with the depression they were convinced they had. Do they really have depression? Even the competent medical personnel Finrock referenced in a previous post often don't agree.

[Red]

My main point was that there is no real test to determine mental illness. It is just diagnosed by a doctor via conversations. There are no blood tests. There are no brain chemical tests. Just a doctor deciding you are or not based on their own feeling. The sad fact is that most mental illness, especially depression, can't be detected in a reliable way by any test.

Fair enough, but that means that you or anyone else can’t claim that it’s NOT depression/mental illness either. Just because you can’t test for depression doesn’t make it less of an illness.

Chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, and lupus are all illnesses that can’t be tested in order to diagnose. They are catch-all illnesses that are given a label only after every other test fails to diagnose a patient. Using your logic, these would not be characterized as true illnesses. I know folks with all of those illnesses and I can guarantee you that they are very real to them. Mental illness and depression isn’t different.

[jadd]

Jadd 50, I have a lot in common with your experience and approaches yet I still have debilitating depression. I don’t want it. I hate it. I feel misunderstood by all those who have said it’s not an illness. It IS. I DONT WANT IT, yet I have it. I take care of myself. I exercise. I eat well. I go outside. I bought a couple dumb dogs bc they’re supposed to help depression. I have done everything I could think of to fix it, but it is a disease I can’t figure out how to get rid of. You know, when some gets cancer everyone thinks, well, that’s a trial God gave them. Depression isn’t different. Just because it happens in your head doesn’t mean your head can cure it.

Fin, I really appreciate this comment, “So, suicide is how the person died, depression is what killed them.”
I never thought of it that way. That’s very enlightening.

I'm sorry that you are struggling, really. It sucks. You may be an exception. Like I said I empathize greatly with your plight and with anyone else that struggles it is not something that is easy to live with.

I would add a few additional caveats. This may not be your case, but for those reading it is important to understand. Dopamine and serotonin are chemicals that affect our happiness levels. 90% of seratonin is found in the gut and influenced by the gut. For instance, antibiotics generally destroy much of the microbiome i.e bacteria in the gut. This has a massive influence on our moods. Our guts are generally healthy when we are younger and we receive a strong gut from mother's milk (if we were breastfed, if not... well that usually leads to a host of other issues), So antibiotics *and I'm not saying they are evil at all) set up someone for depression. Furtheremore most of us don't eat the proper nutrients and foods to restore our gut flora. We stick with 10-20 foods that we eat consistently and don't vary outside of that diet. Most of the food that is "healthy" is over processed or contains large traces of glyphosate (a weed killer that also destroys gut bacteria). Our meats are shot up with antibiotics (kills gut bacteria). It is truly an awful mess. That is why I really do ask the Lord to bless the food. Anyways, we need more raw foods or foods that are cooked to the peak temperature (not over or under) (varies from food to food) to maximize the nutritianal value and uptake. The milk we drink is basically thick water- the pasteruization destroys much of the useful bacteria in the milk. We need to eat more fermented foods and vary our foods and try to avoid foods that are laden with pesticides (which destroy gut bacteria(. For example if I remember correctly our wheats are sprayed with pesticide almost immediately before they are harvested to germinate faster and to avoid any bugs. IMagine why so many people have problems today.... Anyways, Some people can jump back much faster depending on diets and family history and their own genetics. So that is my mini schpeel of foods - there is a lot more, but again this is just the beginning.

Edit: I'm not saying all wheat is bad (it's not) we just have to be careful and consider the source and the type of wheat we are purchasing - I prefer Einkorn or Khorasan (organic)
Also - not all organic is created the same - much of the "organic" items should not be labeled organic. It's pretty disgusting.

TL;DR Often people believe that they are eating right, but the food quality is poor (see above for details).

As far as exercise is concerned for some reason we think 15-30 minutes is sufficient, but humans were designed to be active - yes that exercise increases dopamine, but if it were more intersperced throughout the day it would help drastically. Additionally we need at least 15 minutes of sun a day (for those that "absorb" *chemically react to create) the "vitamin" well). That 15 minutes has a caveat though - it is on someone with bare arms, and bare legs, bare tummy, and bare face 15 minutes straight. Most of us doen't get that much sun on that much body for that long or if we do it is at 5:00 pm when the rays don't acutally have as much of an effect upon us.. So if you just have arms out and ankles you'd need about 45 minutes worth and it should be sometime between 10 and 3 for full effect. The sunlight will provide endorphines to improve mood (I like the symbolism between Christ and the sun).

Additionally when most people go "outside" it is for a short 30 minute walk and it is in the middle of the city. People need trees and grass and nature to get out of the city, not be in just a park, but go on a hike. This also drastically improves mood.

While this doesn't pertain to you since you have a couple of dogs. Animals help people with depression who are partly depressed because of lack of companionship. Animals are often reflections of ourselves in certain ways (if we purchsed them when they are puppies and were raised by us) they can show us our own faults. They do provide a distraction though. The more you cuddle and hold them it also releases endorphines and other chemicals to increase happiness. If I might make a suggestion, try horses. They are strong emotional animals and can help a lot.

Sleep is also exteremly important this means avoiding blue light at least an hour or two before bed. It allows your body to produce the melatonin necessary for a good and restful sleep and to feel happier during the day.

Faith/ prayer/meditation also creates I can't remember whcih beneficial chemical, but drastically helps mood as well.

Additionally there may be unresolved emotional dissonance iwthin many individuals as well. This can also be a contributing factor to depression.

Edit: Some vaccines (the multi-dose flu) for example also contain trace amounts of mercury (thimerosol) it will also destroy all the bacteria in your gut drastically affecting mood (seratonin) levels.

You may already know a lot of that stuff and this post is only partially directed at you, Red, it is more of just an informational post for those who don't know. Many of us think we are doing all we should be, but don't realize how bad the world really is and much of what we consume how it affects us. That being said, I still maintain there really probably are those who struggle and those with exceptions to the reasons I've listed above. My heart goes out to all suffering from depression. I've had too many friends and acquaintances kill themselves. It hurts and I feel dearly for their families. It is a terrible tragedy for all involved. So, Red, I hope that you stay strong and are able to overcome. If not I hope that you are able to embrace it and give gratitude to God for that trial and ask Him what He wants to learn or what he wants you to do with it. I'm sure He will help you to understand more if it is a trial.

[Red]

I appreciate it Jadd. I do realize that info is for everyone, not just me. I’m still playing with my diet to see if I can figure anything else out. I work in oil and gas so I’m out in nature a lot. It does help because it’s literally the middle of nowhere, but even with that and everything else I’ve done, I can’t seem to kick it. My next step is to test my blood to see if my amalgam fillings are leaching. That’s how desperate I am to be rid of the depression. I literally consider anything, I’m so desperate.

[Serragon]

My main point was that there is no real test to determine mental illness. It is just diagnosed by a doctor via conversations. There are no blood tests. There are no brain chemical tests. Just a doctor deciding you are or not based on their own feeling. The sad fact is that most mental illness, especially depression, can't be detected in a reliable way by any test.

Fair enough, but that means that you or anyone else can’t claim that it’s NOT depression/mental illness either. Just because you can’t test for depression doesn’t make it less of an illness.

Chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, and lupus are all illnesses that can’t be tested in order to diagnose. They are catch-all illnesses that are given a label only after every other test fails to diagnose a patient. Using your logic, these would not be characterized as true illnesses. I know folks with all of those illnesses and I can guarantee you that they are very real to them. Mental illness and depression isn’t different.

I think you might be reading more into this than what I have actually stated. I haven't made any claims that this is not a real illness. I also have not claimed that any specific person does or does not have a mental illness. I hopefully would never be so foolish as to state that simply because I can't detect something it isn't real. I would have to abandon my faith!

[Red]

My main point was that there is no real test to determine mental illness. It is just diagnosed by a doctor via conversations. There are no blood tests. There are no brain chemical tests. Just a doctor deciding you are or not based on their own feeling. The sad fact is that most mental illness, especially depression, can't be detected in a reliable way by any test.

Fair enough, but that means that you or anyone else can’t claim that it’s NOT depression/mental illness either. Just because you can’t test for depression doesn’t make it less of an illness.

Chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, and lupus are all illnesses that can’t be tested in order to diagnose. They are catch-all illnesses that are given a label only after every other test fails to diagnose a patient. Using your logic, these would not be characterized as true illnesses. I know folks with all of those illnesses and I can guarantee you that they are very real to them. Mental illness and depression isn’t different.

I think you might be reading more into this than what I have actually stated. I haven't made any claims that this is not a real illness. I also have not claimed that any specific person does or does not have a mental illness. I hopefully would never be so foolish as to state that simply because I can't detect something it isn't real. I would have to abandon my faith!

I apologize for misunderstanding.

[jadd]

I appreciate it Jadd. I do realize that info is for everyone, not just me. I’m still playing with my diet to see if I can figure anything else out. I work in oil and gas so I’m out in nature a lot. It does help because it’s literally the middle of nowhere, but even with that and everything else I’ve done, I can’t seem to kick it. My next step is to test my blood to see if my amalgam fillings are leaching. That’s how desperate I am to be rid of the depression. I literally consider anything, I’m so desperate.

Good luck, it is a long process. My advice is to pray about your foods and to see what you should cut out and what you should keep (and the quality). My first suggestion, if you haven't already done it is to cut out refined sugar, (this can cause certain types of gut bacteria to grow out of control and overtake other parts affecting your mood) Once you have a stable gut, you can bring it back in. Also, Sauer Kraut is good, but again be aware that there are certain foods which are filled with toxins that affect the gut a lot. And yes, those fillings very well could be leaking, but they also may not be affecting you anymore. I think you are on the right track. My sister just had hers replaced. I'll have to ask hwer if she notices anything different. Also, if you believe it could be possible, a blessing to see if something is trying to (or has) attach itself to you and contribute to your feelings. (again this doesn't mean you're evil, just that Satan doesn't want you to be happy). Pray to know who might be the best person to give you that blessing. Anyways, Good luck again, I will pray that the heavens might be opened for you a bit more to receive the revelation you need for your life!

[Red]

Jadd, I’m curious to know about your sisters fillings. You can PM me if you learn anything interesting

[jadd]

Jadd, I’m curious to know about your sisters fillings. You can PM me if you learn anything interesting

Will do!

Additionally for anyone else struggling with depression - and this is the most important thing to do in my opinion- if the Lord has not removed that curse from you, I would ask the Lord how or what you can do or change to reduce the burden placed upon you (the Lord does reduce burdens so that we can bear them even if He doesn't take them away - He always will). He will lead you bit by bit. First it may come as a feeling of unhappiness as if you feel trapped and know you need to change, but don't know what. Ask the Lord for faith to follow His promptings and for the strength to follow them and then do as He guides you. Ask Him to open doors and new paths for you. Ask Him what you should ask for. He will guide you to certain people to help you reduce or eat certain things or to sleep more or cut out certain things even if it is as simple as a television show. Do it. After a while if you keep following those promptings I promise you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ that you will find and realize that your burdens will not be as heavy as they once were. He will guide you for He loves you very very much and never stop seeking unless he tells you, like Paul, that this is a thorn for you to bear.

[Finrock]

I'm going to not post to this thread for a couple of days because I can't seem to refrain from wanting to say something sarcastic and impudent at the moment.

-Finrock

[simpleton]

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Depression can be addictive. and so it can also be a cop out. It is often easier to be a victim than to admit that there are things you could do to change your life and reduce the depression drastically. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but the general reason most people feel depression is because they are not living their life the way they should (or the way their spirit knows they should). This can be a mix of multiple factors. These factors can be 1) lack of sleep 2) lack of being in nature 3) lack of doing things of true worth 4) lack of proper nutrition and 5) this combination or mix thereof allows evil and/or unclean spirits to attach and influence us to feel even worse than we normally would with those things. Modern cities are prisons without walls. People don't know why, but they feel trapped, like they can't escape.

This is false.

I find it fascinating that you believe yourself to be the authority and judge on what society is and should be. As an aside, I have had depression. No it doesn't take a snap of a finger to get out of it, but it does take a change in living and in attitude or perspective. This can be short or it can take a while to change, but just like most addictions, it can be overcome when you find something to replace the deep feeling of depression. It is hard to find something that will fill that deep feeling that sits inside of you that will no longer be there once you give up the depression. It takes a leap of faith. It can be done and it can be overcome and doesn't always take a life time if we make the right changes. It can take minutes, to hours, to days, to months - the timing depends on individual faith and their ability to change your life whether it is fast of slow. All of it depends on how much we search for the specific reasons why depression is occurring within us. Like I said, I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but for the vast majority of cases we can fix ourselves and fairly quickly at that. Once we mentally understand and believe and then act, it really is a just "snap out of it" act. We realize we are no longer depressed and don't need to be.

You are right in that depression can be treated, just like cancer can be treated or any other illness or disease can be treated. If left untreated, you can die. But, it has very little to do with a person's worthiness, righteousness, goodness, faith, etc. You would never tell a person who has cancer that they must have allowed themselves to be influenced by evil spirits, etc. Yeah, most people who are just feeling a little blue, maybe had a bad day, week, or month, or a death in the family, can easily find a solution using the methods that you describe. But, normal life stressors and normal life disappointments are not mental illness and don't constitute depression. Depression causes a person to feel horrible for no reason whatsoever. They can be doing everything right. You can be living healthily and living righteously and still suffer from depression.

-Finrock

You can't just say "This is False" and expect people to believe you. I could easily say "Everything you are saying is False." Boom, Trump card, I win (It doesn't work that way).

No, most people are not living their lives the way they should i.e exercising, getting enough sunlight, (Nature) sleeping properly, having LEGITIMATE prayers (most people make christmas lists), their consists of a love for mammon (money) and not for God or their fellow man. When anentire life consists of Wake up, shower, eat, got to work, come back, watch tv, eat, social media, talk briefly to you kids, go to sleep, no wonder we are depressed. That isn't life. That life literally consists of loving the world - no wonder my spirit shrinks at that (or anyone else). We've almost completely left God out of almost the entire day ( I still do and I know what I should be doing). Our lives are focused on loving Babylon all for money and lucre. Our society has a higher standard of living than any other society has in written history and we are extremely depressed.
Where are we multiplying and replenishing the earth? where are we loving our neighbor? Do we grow anything? We are always taking and taking, but very rarely giving back to the earth or those around us. Perhaps that is why depression is increasing so rapidly. Furthermore, just because someone is influenced by an evil spirit does not make them evil. The binary approach most appear to have on life is a likely influencer of depression as well. Just so you are aware ALL OF US are influenced by evil spirits. We have to choose good or evil every single day. I don't know why people think that just because they are following rules means that no evil spirit can influence them. They tempt us, they mess with our bodies, with our minds. There are times when we all have the most appalling thoughts and we are shocked to our very core - "How could I think that?" "Where did that come from?" We are sickened, those are often evil spirits. Just like other times when light or ideas come to our mind and we think "I know what I'll do" "It makes sense!" Or feel love outside of ourselves, that comes from Good Spirits/ the Holy Ghost. Do you not think that Satan rejoices when someone is depressed and doesn't want to do anything because of how they feel? Is it that far out of imagination to think that he might send a spirit or two or more to help keep someone in depression to prevent them from doing the good work they might otherwise?

Additionally I'm not disagreeing that you can be living "healthily and living righteously" when you become depressed. There were at least two periods where I suffered severe depression in my life. The first I thought I was living righteously, but was in fact "doing everything to the letter of the law" and judging everyone around me - I was not living the spirit of the law. I wasn't happy. Conversion changed me i.e Christ changed me I had to beg him on my knees and he gave me a new life. The second time was when I was living righteously (truly) but had been deceived by something which caused certain events to unfold. I was so depressed that even the thought of suicide was too much work. I wanted to literally cease to exist. I pushed through. At the root, it was caused by me desiring something that I shouldn't have and not being able to cope. This took me months to figure out. I didn't want to go to class, I didn't want to talk to people I wanted to cease to exist. I understand what depression is. I'm very aware of how it works. I'm also very aware of its addictive nature. Initially it was from a certain event (then a series of subsequent events). It was the hardest thing in the world for me to realize that I WANTED to feel this pain. It made me feel alive which is ironic because I wanted to die. This pain was so exquisite that I didn't think I could find anything ot replace it. I would feel empty. I enjoyed feeling that way - deeply hoping that someone would notice. IT took me a long time (longer than it should have) to figure that out and when I did, I made the conscious choice to stop. There is so much more I wish I could write on this but I don't have time and it would fall on deaf ears.

My heart goes out to those with depression - before my first experience I judged them and didn't understand the process in fact I"m sure part of the reason I had that experience is so that it could teach me to love and understand. That is why I also know that depression is often caused by the agents i listed previously. It can also be caused by half of the medicine we take in modern society. birth control pills can cause depression (interestingly it is a rejection of the multiply the earth commandment), almost any drug anyone takes can cause depression. We are so medicated looking for a quick fix that we've dug ourselves into deep trenches and don't know how to get out because we trust so much in man. That should say something about us eating correctly and taking what we should (word of wisdom). Most medicine is a bastardized version of something natural. It is a synthetic forrn of something found in nature (there are exceptions, of course). However, what we are doing to our bodies weakens our minds and our bodies and allows the adversaries angels to influence us more and more. The best way to help those with depression is not to enable, but to lift up and strengthen. We can love them, but also help them realize that much of it is a choice to change their life in whatever way they need to in order to find peace.

Most of us are truly afraid of being introspective and realizing that we really aren't as good as we think we are. It is hard to realize how unrighteous most of us are (including myself). True vulnerability is hard, but when we embrace it we find power. When we finally embrace that aspect and realize that we really are less than the "dust" of the Earth, but that somehow in God's eyes we are His Glory and he loves us, when we finally marry those two ideas together (and actually believe it) it gives us power to overcome almost anything. Despite the fact that I feel worthless and I don't want to live, God loves me and makes up for what I lack. I have faith in that and that hope, that dream, is part of what brings you out of the pit of despair because you realized you can't do it alone. (When I say You, I mean Us).

Being willing to change ourselves and listen to God rather than making excuses as to why we can't do things keeps us in a state of depression. We are loving the world more than Him. We worship the works of our own hands rather than Him. It's in the very nature of our society and most of us were/are taught to worship Babylon from our youth (even though we think we aren't).

TL;DR - Just saying it is false doesn't make it so. Most of us really aren't living our lives the way we should even though we think we are - there are certain exceptions. Everyone is influenced by evil spirits or at least surrounded by them. We live our lives monotonously without giving back. Self introspection is hard and upon truly looking at our root selves we find out we're not that good. God makes us for it if we let him and that gives us power to change and power to overcome.

I'll have to say I agree with Jadd here. The problem with the
Medical society is that they have no clue about the power of the adversary, and for that matter do not even believe in an adversary. And this was Brigham Youngs belief also. Brigham figured some doctors were good at setting bones and stitching up cuts, but for diseases and especially "mental diseases" they are pretty much worthless.

Brigham Young:

You never felt a pain and ache, or felt disagreeable, or uncomfortable in your bodies and minds, but what an evil spirit was present causing it. Do you realize that the ague, the fevers, the chills, the severe pain in the head, the plurisy, or any pain in the system, from the crown of the head to the soles of the feet, is put there by the devil? You do not realize this, do you?
I say but little about this matter, because I do not want you to realize it. When you have the rheumatism, do you realize that the devil put that upon you? No, but you say, “I got wet, caught cold, and thereby got the rheumatism.” The spirits that afflict us and plant disease in our bodies, pain in the system, and finally death, have control over us so far as the flesh is concerned. But when the spirit is unlocked from the body it is free from the power of death and Satan; and when that body comes up again, it also, with the spirit, will gain the victory over death, hell, and the grave. …
When we have done with the flesh, and have departed to the spirit world, you will find that we are independent of those evil spirits. But while you are in the flesh you will suffer by them, and cannot control them, only by your faith in the name of Jesus Christ and by the keys of the eternal Priesthood.

[Red]

I'm going to not post to this thread for a couple of days because I can't seem to refrain from wanting to say something sarcastic and impudent at the moment.

-Finrock

Lol Fin

[mgridle1]

Unfortunately the current way society (and unfortunately the Church now), treats suicide is so backwards it is ridiculous.

https://www.madinamerica.com/2018/06/he ... -suicidal/

Some of the best stuff here:
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At any given time, about 30% of my practice is actively suicidal. They know that I am comfortable with this. They know that I never have called 911. Never put them on a patronizing suicide watch. Never have drawn up some promissory note-type contract. I have never implied for one second that they don’t have what it takes to move through this.

They know that I am not scared of them or their feelings.

Rather, I perceive that something in them needs to die in order for them to be reborn and that this is their raising of the white flag. This surrender is the end of the end and the beginning of the beginning, if only we let the pain come up, come out, and leave. And it does. It moves. It changes. And often, what comes in its wake is exactly the kind of shift that could never have been prescribed, taught, or suggested. It’s deep spiritual growth.
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Probably the worst thing you can do so someone is sabotage their own ability and sense to be able to conquer their own demons. It's a very backwards way of thinking. If you treat a child like a child forever, they will forever be stuck like a child and expect childlike things, but if you take the child, give them a vision of what they can be, encourage them to aspire to it they will more likely than not elevate themselves towards that vision.