Elder Renlund on Suicide

[Red]

No need to reply either. I don’t enjoy debates of logic with brick walls.

Any chance we could try disagreeing without being disagreeable?

He called me an Anti-Christ, delusional, implied that I was hateful and a bad person, and I called him a brick wall; short answer, not likely. He only apologized for calling me a dude, which I didn’t even fault him for since it’s an honest mistake. So I got an apology where none was needed and treated rudely without an apology. I figured brick wall was apropos.

[Red]

I'm hesitant to involve myself in this and am definitely sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but here goes...
Jesef can be... difficult at times and can even appear arrogant or be arrogant in his overly logical way of approaching things. That being said, Red, you really kind of did/ are overeact[ing]. I applaud Jesef for forgiving what he perceives to be a trespass against himself (whether it was intended on your part or not - that being said, it is very easy to perceive why he would perceive it that way and logically if you can't see that, then you aren't being honest with yourself, Red). Furthermore, your response indicates that you, Red, are in fact reacting much more emotionally than you would like to believe yourself. Both of you have projected and the reaction between both of you is like the pot calling the kettle black. Though, if I had to cast blame, I would say that Red, you would share much more than Jesef in this exchange. The quote "You mean precisely zero to me." could be taken a few ways, the first is an emotionless response - however, were this the case then you would be denying Jesef's humanity and the fact that we are spirit children of God. Otherwise if there was emotion, it actually belies a bit of hate. Regardless your last response, Red was 1)either an emotional response or 2) a response driven by pride (which in fact is an emotional response, but much sneakier). I know because I have written (or considered writing) responses similar to yours in the past. I don't mean to say the entire response, but especially about the "I am not seeking your forgiveness."
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “Ever keep in exercise the principle of mercy and be ready to forgive a brother (or sister) on the first intimation of repentance and asking forgiveness. And should we even forgive our brother, or even our enemy, before he repents, and asks forgiveness, our Heavenly Father would be equally merciful to us” (Documentary History of the Church, 3:383).
In the end we all contain faults (myself included which at times includes my arrogance or pride)- so let's try and follow the Savior and just be happy that if you did sin, or even if you didn't, at least you will have one less accuser when you die.
If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down - Joseph Smith JR.

As an aside - logic is not the only way to obtain information, in fact the pursuit of all truth through logic is in itself a logical fallacy.

You passed judgment then qualified doing so by saying we all have faults. Saying we all have faults does not justify you casting stones.

You’re correct, it was an emotionless response.

Saying you know what I think because you’ve responded similarly is a dangerous assumption.

Regardless, I have pity for those who show no mercy and even more pity for their victims. You can maintain your belief system without making others feel worse about their own. That’s what Christ does.

In short, I don’t believe it helps anyone to tell folks who feel suicidal that suicide is a sin. Most already think that anyway. We should focus on loving them back to the will to live. Whether or not it is a sin is immaterial.

[jadd]

I'm hesitant to involve myself in this and am definitely sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but here goes...
Jesef can be... difficult at times and can even appear arrogant or be arrogant in his overly logical way of approaching things. That being said, Red, you really kind of did/ are overeact[ing]. I applaud Jesef for forgiving what he perceives to be a trespass against himself (whether it was intended on your part or not - that being said, it is very easy to perceive why he would perceive it that way and logically if you can't see that, then you aren't being honest with yourself, Red). Furthermore, your response indicates that you, Red, are in fact reacting much more emotionally than you would like to believe yourself. Both of you have projected and the reaction between both of you is like the pot calling the kettle black. Though, if I had to cast blame, I would say that Red, you would share much more than Jesef in this exchange. The quote "You mean precisely zero to me." could be taken a few ways, the first is an emotionless response - however, were this the case then you would be denying Jesef's humanity and the fact that we are spirit children of God. Otherwise if there was emotion, it actually belies a bit of hate. Regardless your last response, Red was 1)either an emotional response or 2) a response driven by pride (which in fact is an emotional response, but much sneakier). I know because I have written (or considered writing) responses similar to yours in the past. I don't mean to say the entire response, but especially about the "I am not seeking your forgiveness."
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “Ever keep in exercise the principle of mercy and be ready to forgive a brother (or sister) on the first intimation of repentance and asking forgiveness. And should we even forgive our brother, or even our enemy, before he repents, and asks forgiveness, our Heavenly Father would be equally merciful to us” (Documentary History of the Church, 3:383).
In the end we all contain faults (myself included which at times includes my arrogance or pride)- so let's try and follow the Savior and just be happy that if you did sin, or even if you didn't, at least you will have one less accuser when you die.
If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down - Joseph Smith JR.

As an aside - logic is not the only way to obtain information, in fact the pursuit of all truth through logic is in itself a logical fallacy.

You passed judgment then qualified doing so by saying we all have faults. Saying we all have faults does not justify you casting stones.

You’re correct, it was an emotionless response.

Saying you know what I think because you’ve responded similarly is a dangerous assumption.

Regardless, I have pity for those who show no mercy and even more pity for their victims. You can maintain your belief system without making others feel worse about their own. That’s what Christ does.

In short, I don’t believe it helps anyone to tell folks who feel suicidal that suicide is a sin. Most already think that anyway. We should focus on loving them back to the will to live. Whether or not it is a sin is immaterial.

Haha, you crack me up because you remind me of a few people I know in real life, bless you.

Observation and casting stones are two different things in my opinion (and in this case at least for me it is what matters for "what judgement ye judge ye shall be judged so judge ye righteous judgment" (meaning me in this exchange). By me stating we all had faults I was admitting my own weaknesses (avoiding hypocrisy). I was not claiming to be better, but was merely showing a light to hopefully light the way and would hope that someone would call me out if I were to reply emotionally or as emotionlessly as yourself. Additionally, as an aside, I'm not condemning you or anyone else for that matter(which is actually what casting stones would be e.g. damning or punishing you (by throwing stones)and saying you are going to hell etc... (all are examples of condemnation). I do know that we all fall short of what we should do at certain times in our lives and many of us if we do not learn the voice of the Lord will suffer spiritually and in my personal opinion physically in the next few years. I also know that Charity never faileth and it is the gift that we should seek after with all the energy of our hearts for it suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in ainiquity, but rejoiceth in the btruth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Whoever receiveth this gift it shall be well for them in the last day - and that is what I try to seek for with all the energy of my heart. Along with the gift of discernment/discerning of spirits - for that allows me to see the truth in all things.

I wouldn't say it was a dangerous assumption, but it was an assumption nonetheless . I very well may have been wrong and if I really was, then I was and we all make mistakes and I apologize, but like I said, the substance of my message still stands.
If I'm gonna die, I want to live with people who I get along with and I would prefer to make it with all of you there with me if I get there. That is why I love the story of the Prodigal Son people really can change toward the end of their life after all the mistakes they've made and God will accept them. Though I will say the same spirit that inhabits our body in this life is the same we will take in the next. Additionally the same Spirit (or spirits) we have learned to follow in this life are the same ones we will likely follow in the next. Thus it is up to us to know truth and know ourselves (gift of discernment) so we are not deceived.

"And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, if the society be good?" - Joseph Smith

Adieu

[sevenator]

What if the only thing keeping someone from seriously considering suicide is the "old sectarian notion" that it is a sin?

No more stigma of sin, no more problem ending it all.

I really don't like what I'm seeing and hearing lately...

[Red]

I'm hesitant to involve myself in this and am definitely sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but here goes...
Jesef can be... difficult at times and can even appear arrogant or be arrogant in his overly logical way of approaching things. That being said, Red, you really kind of did/ are overeact[ing]. I applaud Jesef for forgiving what he perceives to be a trespass against himself (whether it was intended on your part or not - that being said, it is very easy to perceive why he would perceive it that way and logically if you can't see that, then you aren't being honest with yourself, Red). Furthermore, your response indicates that you, Red, are in fact reacting much more emotionally than you would like to believe yourself. Both of you have projected and the reaction between both of you is like the pot calling the kettle black. Though, if I had to cast blame, I would say that Red, you would share much more than Jesef in this exchange. The quote "You mean precisely zero to me." could be taken a few ways, the first is an emotionless response - however, were this the case then you would be denying Jesef's humanity and the fact that we are spirit children of God. Otherwise if there was emotion, it actually belies a bit of hate. Regardless your last response, Red was 1)either an emotional response or 2) a response driven by pride (which in fact is an emotional response, but much sneakier). I know because I have written (or considered writing) responses similar to yours in the past. I don't mean to say the entire response, but especially about the "I am not seeking your forgiveness."
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “Ever keep in exercise the principle of mercy and be ready to forgive a brother (or sister) on the first intimation of repentance and asking forgiveness. And should we even forgive our brother, or even our enemy, before he repents, and asks forgiveness, our Heavenly Father would be equally merciful to us” (Documentary History of the Church, 3:383).
In the end we all contain faults (myself included which at times includes my arrogance or pride)- so let's try and follow the Savior and just be happy that if you did sin, or even if you didn't, at least you will have one less accuser when you die.
If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down - Joseph Smith JR.

As an aside - logic is not the only way to obtain information, in fact the pursuit of all truth through logic is in itself a logical fallacy.

You passed judgment then qualified doing so by saying we all have faults. Saying we all have faults does not justify you casting stones.

You’re correct, it was an emotionless response.

Saying you know what I think because you’ve responded similarly is a dangerous assumption.

Regardless, I have pity for those who show no mercy and even more pity for their victims. You can maintain your belief system without making others feel worse about their own. That’s what Christ does.

In short, I don’t believe it helps anyone to tell folks who feel suicidal that suicide is a sin. Most already think that anyway. We should focus on loving them back to the will to live. Whether or not it is a sin is immaterial.

Haha, you crack me up because you remind me of a few people I know in real life, bless you.

Observation and casting stones are two different things in my opinion (and in this case at least for me it is what matters for "what judgement ye judge ye shall be judged so judge ye righteous judgment" (meaning me in this exchange). By me stating we all had faults I was admitting my own weaknesses (avoiding hypocrisy). I was not claiming to be better, but was merely showing a light to hopefully light the way and would hope that someone would call me out if I were to reply emotionally or as emotionlessly as yourself. Additionally, as an aside, I'm not condemning you or anyone else for that matter(which is actually what casting stones would be e.g. damning or punishing you (by throwing stones)and saying you are going to hell etc... (all are examples of condemnation). I do know that we all fall short of what we should do at certain times in our lives and many of us if we do not learn the voice of the Lord will suffer spiritually and in my personal opinion physically in the next few years. I also know that Charity never faileth and it is the gift that we should seek after with all the energy of our hearts for it suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in ainiquity, but rejoiceth in the btruth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Whoever receiveth this gift it shall be well for them in the last day - and that is what I try to seek for with all the energy of my heart. Along with the gift of discernment/discerning of spirits - for that allows me to see the truth in all things.

I wouldn't say it was a dangerous assumption, but it was an assumption nonetheless . I very well may have been wrong and if I really was, then I was and we all make mistakes and I apologize, but like I said, the substance of my message still stands.
If I'm gonna die, I want to live with people who I get along with and I would prefer to make it with all of you there with me if I get there. That is why I love the story of the Prodigal Son people really can change toward the end of their life after all the mistakes they've made and God will accept them. Though I will say the same spirit that inhabits our body in this life is the same we will take in the next. Additionally the same Spirit (or spirits) we have learned to follow in this life are the same ones we will likely follow in the next. Thus it is up to us to know truth and know ourselves (gift of discernment) so we are not deceived.

"And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, if the society be good?" - Joseph Smith

Adieu

Well bless your heart as well.

[Jesef]

Red, I'm with you. I feel strongly that anyone calling people or their ideas "anti-Christ" (meaning against or without Christ) on an LDS forum is rude and ridiculous, and not giving each other the benefit of the doubt in our brief & incomplete & often misunderstood expressions. No one on the forum should be treated that way. So on behalf of all the self-justifying/hypocritical, self-righteous, and judgmental behavior you've been subjected to thus far on LDSFF, please accept my heartfelt apology. You & your thoughts & views & ideas are welcome here. I'm pretty sure I wasn't the one who offended you, but I really think you deserve an apology, friendliness, kindness, respect, and compassion. Forgive them for they know not what they do. Apparently some of them don't seem to understand how to discuss ideas on a blog without passing judgment on their fellow participants, to try to be friendly and persuasive & inquisitive instead. Some people just have offensive/jerky mannerisms.

Suicide is such a sensitive and painful topic - many of us have lost friends or relatives along the way who took that tragic and tortured step. We all hope & pray the best outcome in the next world for them, as we do ourselves.

Despite what some of the hard-liners have said in this thread, I truly believe there is hope in Christ (God-Creator/Redeemer/Judge) and the Grace & Love of God for almost everyone. We simply do not comprehend how broad or deep that well is. One of the reasons I think Jesus commanded us not to judge is that we/mortals never have enough information to do that accurately. We don't know what is going on in another person's mind and heart and soul. There's so much pain that can't be seen, the people, even close to us, have repressed. TBM cultists (the Pharisaical LDS Members) want to have a pat answer & judgment for every scenario, an answer for every question. So they tend to come up with the wrong answers A LOT in their quest to fill in all the gaps and uncertainties and complexities of life. But it's pretty simple, as far as Jesus taught: we don't pass judgment, we forgive, we repent, we love, we help instead of harm. The veil hides so much of what comes next, there are so many possibilities. We just don't know. But I believe that repentance and progress continue - that's what the Atonement enables: it allows us to continue to grow, learn, and progress, to keep climbing up the eternal Everest. It doesn't do the climbing for us - it's not fairy dust - and it's not an escalator to the top of the mountain. It's hand-rails, and med-kits, and tents, and food/water, oxygen, ropes and ladders, etc. For serious falls (like maybe suicide is) there is still hope, maybe it's a long rest and medicine and attentive care (in the Spirit World). But I believe we can all continue to progress as long as we choose. Some of this is pure speculation, but the hints are in the scriptures. D&C 19 proves that many "harsh" terms aren't literal and don't necessarily mean what we thought they did. That's also hopeful. Many of the hard-liners seem to peddle fear, shame, and judgment. Maybe they can't help but spew that at everyone they talk to, maybe because that's how they feel about themselves and they're projecting, or maybe it's just that self-righteous reassurance that they're right and anything outside their box is wrong. Who knows. Peace.

[Red]

I appreciate that very much Jesef. I often feel like an outsider on the forum and like my thoughts don’t matter. I work very hard on not letting what people think of me affect my outlook. I’m here trying to figure a few things out and sometimes I’m a little lonely, haha. When I first joined I never imagined I’d find as much unkindness as I’ve found. There have been a few truly kind people that I’ve appreciated.

I tell myself very often, especially when interacting with those who are harsh, unkind, snide, snippy, whatever, that there is a reason they are the way they are but I will likely never know those reasons. They’re seeking their own happiness and I won’t work toward derailing that. Sometimes their words hurt, but that’s because I try to never hurt someone intentionally and I don’t understand people who do. I do take time to consider if their words are true and if I need to make changes in myself.

When it comes to suicide, I can’t label it a sin. I don’t really care if it is or it isn’t. I appreciate Renlund very much. All I care is that I don’t add to a suicidal person’s stress by pointing fingers and calling them a sinner. Their life is hard enough. I would rather love them and hope that they find peace and stay here. I refuse to scare them. I love the quote from Legrand Richard “It is the Lord’s Church, so I let Him worry about it”. It’s the same in this context. It’s the Lord’s job to consider judgment, I’ll leave it to Him. Funny thing, I read that quote on lds.org awhile back and the context of article would fit into this discussion. Here it is.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/06/wisd ... r?lang=eng

Thanks again Jesef.

[Red]

In that talk above there was a reference to Exodus 18. I went back and read the whole chapter but this part stood out to me. I think that those who hear the spirit's whispers can understand some of the deeper meaning. It's pretty extraordinary how the Lord can work through the Holy Ghost to bring realization to the nuances of life.

13 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to ajudge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.

14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?

15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to ainquire of God:

16 When they have a amatter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.

17 And Moses’ father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.

18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is atoo heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.

19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: aBe thou for the people to bGod-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:

sorry for the footnotes in there. I copy and pasted.

Vs 18 is particularly amazing. We cannot micromanage other people's lives, it is too great for us, but we can be stewards guided by the spirit and let the Lord work through us.

Fun fact: because of this conversation, I was directed to Exodus in which I was strengthened so that I can deal with something that has been bothering me lately. How amazing is the Lord and the way He works!

[Serragon]

The only real question is whether it is God's will that we kill ourselves?

In almost all cases the answer to this would have to be No. So it is sin. I acknowledge that there may be some occasions where the Lord may give His blessing, but this would be rare.

I think the issue some have with the statements by the GA is that it could lead to more people committing suicide because they feel there is nothing wrong with it. I realize this is being done in the name of love and empathy, but if more people tread down ungodly paths because of it then this really isn't love or empathy at all. it is just enabling of ungodly behavior.

Anti-Christ is a harsh term. I understand Red taking offense to it. Most people would. I believe that term is loaded with all kinds of negative imagery involving actively fighting against Christ which is clearly not the case for Red.

[mgridle1]

Anti-Christ is a harsh term. I understand Red taking offense to it. Most people would. I believe that term is loaded with all kinds of negative imagery involving actively fighting against Christ which is clearly not the case for Red.

It is a harsh term. In Red's case if you go back and look, I specifically said the idea she was espousing was anti-Christ; I also laid out my reasons why.

We think of the term anti-Christ to be more loaded than it really is. Anti-Christ means against Christ. And her idea she espoused taken to its conclusion MUST lead to the idea that there is no need for a Savior and thus is against Christ. Too many times we get mixed up between THE anti-Christ and things or ideas that ARE anti-Christ.

There are many, many, many ideologies spread about today that are 100% anti-Christ. For example the blather that the hitman for Imagine Dragons that states "You are perfect just the way you are". There is hardly anything in this world that can be more anti-Christ that that ideology.

Because it literally says, you are perfect and therefore you do not need to repent, you do not need to turn to God, you do not need a Savior, therefore it is anti-Christ. Another synonym for it would be anti-Christian (which would be a denial of broad Christian ethos), I prefer the term anti-Christ-b/c it gets directly to the heart of the message. You do not have to "fight against" Christ to espouse ideas, values that ARE against Christ (hence anti-Christ).

Anyone is welcome to read what I wrote as I explained it and my reasoning for it-one may disagree with my reasoning-but it was not a slur, nor a direct personal attack.

[Red]

The only real question is whether it is God's will that we kill ourselves?

In almost all cases the answer to this would have to be No. So it is sin. I acknowledge that there may be some occasions where the Lord may give His blessing, but this would be rare.

I think the issue some have with the statements by the GA is that it could lead to more people committing suicide because they feel there is nothing wrong with it. I realize this is being done in the name of love and empathy, but if more people tread down ungodly paths because of it then this really isn't love or empathy at all. it is just enabling of ungodly behavior.

Anti-Christ is a harsh term. I understand Red taking offense to it. Most people would. I believe that term is loaded with all kinds of negative imagery involving actively fighting against Christ which is clearly not the case for Red.

I've been mulling my feelings over about this subject. I think a lot of my hesitation in labeling is because the word sin itself has such negative connotations. I know that logically sin is inherently a negative thing; however, the word itself has been heavily associated with shame and guilt. I began thinking of sin (because of another forum member who helped me tremendously) as something that creates a separation between you and God. I do think that the feelings generated from suicide create a chasm between you and God, so if you look at it that way, then yeah sure, call it a sin, but I don't think we HAVE to do that. We dont HAVE to make suicidal people feel like less by pointing fingers and calling them sinners.

I believe I understand your observation that suicidal people might see it as a free pass. That is probably true in some cases, but I would hope that it is not true in most cases. I think most people don't wish to be suicidal. I have every hope that relieving suicidal people of that pressure would help them turn back toward Christ. I can't see it as enabling because I choose to see it as an act of compassion that a suicidal person can choose to react to in one way or another. They have their agency. I believe that love helps people choose better paths. I know it's a fine line.

Side note: when I changed my view of what sin was, I found it much easier to choose the better path. I felt punished in all of my choices and became angry or resentful when I was labeled a sinner, but when I felt like I was creating a gap between myself and the Lord, I made different choices and made them happily. I WANTED to be close to the Lord, but not because someone was making me be close by using fear tactics. Understanding mercy also helped tremendously. It's probably all just psychology, but for me, it made a huge difference in my happiness and quality of life. Just my experience, one size probably doesn't fit all, haha.

[Serragon]

The only real question is whether it is God's will that we kill ourselves?

In almost all cases the answer to this would have to be No. So it is sin. I acknowledge that there may be some occasions where the Lord may give His blessing, but this would be rare.

I think the issue some have with the statements by the GA is that it could lead to more people committing suicide because they feel there is nothing wrong with it. I realize this is being done in the name of love and empathy, but if more people tread down ungodly paths because of it then this really isn't love or empathy at all. it is just enabling of ungodly behavior.

Anti-Christ is a harsh term. I understand Red taking offense to it. Most people would. I believe that term is loaded with all kinds of negative imagery involving actively fighting against Christ which is clearly not the case for Red.

I've been mulling my feelings over about this subject. I think a lot of my hesitation in labeling is because the word sin itself has such negative connotations. I know that logically sin is inherently a negative thing; however, the word itself has been heavily associated with shame and guilt. I began thinking of sin (because of another forum member who helped me tremendously) as something that creates a separation between you and God. I do think that the feelings generated from suicide create a chasm between you and God, so if you look at it that way, then yeah sure, call it a sin, but I don't think we HAVE to do that. We dont HAVE to make suicidal people feel like less by pointing fingers and calling them sinners.

I believe I understand your observation that suicidal people might see it as a free pass. That is probably true in some cases, but I would hope that it is not true in most cases. I think most people don't wish to be suicidal. I have every hope that relieving suicidal people of that pressure would help them turn back toward Christ. I can't see it as enabling because I choose to see it as an act of compassion that a suicidal person can choose to react to in one way or another. They have their agency. I believe that love helps people choose better paths. I know it's a fine line.

Side note: when I changed my view of what sin was, I found it much easier to choose the better path. I felt punished in all of my choices and became angry or resentful when I was labeled a sinner, but when I felt like I was creating a gap between myself and the Lord, I made different choices and made them happily. I WANTED to be close to the Lord, but not because someone was making me be close by using fear tactics. Understanding mercy also helped tremendously. It's probably all just psychology, but for me, it made a huge difference in my happiness and quality of life. Just my experience, one size probably doesn't fit all, haha.

I think there are some beautiful principles and sentiments here. Thank you for sharing. I think your side note might actually be the main note.

I think it is important to identify sin so that we can help others turn away from it and come to Christ. But the finger of scorn should not be the favored tool. True love, compassion, and empathy on an individual level is how Christ turns our hearts. We should do the same.

[mgridle1]

The only real question is whether it is God's will that we kill ourselves?

In almost all cases the answer to this would have to be No. So it is sin. I acknowledge that there may be some occasions where the Lord may give His blessing, but this would be rare.

I think the issue some have with the statements by the GA is that it could lead to more people committing suicide because they feel there is nothing wrong with it. I realize this is being done in the name of love and empathy, but if more people tread down ungodly paths because of it then this really isn't love or empathy at all. it is just enabling of ungodly behavior.

Anti-Christ is a harsh term. I understand Red taking offense to it. Most people would. I believe that term is loaded with all kinds of negative imagery involving actively fighting against Christ which is clearly not the case for Red.

I've been mulling my feelings over about this subject. I think a lot of my hesitation in labeling is because the word sin itself has such negative connotations. I know that logically sin is inherently a negative thing; however, the word itself has been heavily associated with shame and guilt. I began thinking of sin (because of another forum member who helped me tremendously) as something that creates a separation between you and God. I do think that the feelings generated from suicide create a chasm between you and God, so if you look at it that way, then yeah sure, call it a sin, but I don't think we HAVE to do that. We dont HAVE to make suicidal people feel like less by pointing fingers and calling them sinners.

I believe I understand your observation that suicidal people might see it as a free pass. That is probably true in some cases, but I would hope that it is not true in most cases. I think most people don't wish to be suicidal. I have every hope that relieving suicidal people of that pressure would help them turn back toward Christ. I can't see it as enabling because I choose to see it as an act of compassion that a suicidal person can choose to react to in one way or another. They have their agency. I believe that love helps people choose better paths. I know it's a fine line.

Side note: when I changed my view of what sin was, I found it much easier to choose the better path. I felt punished in all of my choices and became angry or resentful when I was labeled a sinner, but when I felt like I was creating a gap between myself and the Lord, I made different choices and made them happily. I WANTED to be close to the Lord, but not because someone was making me be close by using fear tactics. Understanding mercy also helped tremendously. It's probably all just psychology, but for me, it made a huge difference in my happiness and quality of life. Just my experience, one size probably doesn't fit all, haha.

You have some really good stuff here. And yes a lot of it requires a reframing or a new understanding of what sin really is.
LDS.org
To commit sin is to willfully disobey God’s commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17). The Lord has said that He “cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance”

For some reason in general in the LDS Church we only think of sin for really BIG, BIG things-things like murder, rape, adultery, fornication, etc. But that's not the case. Sin is ANY act of willful disobedience to God's commandments or ANY failure to act righteously despite knowledge of the truth.

And that in effect means that we sin allllll theeee tiiiimmmmeeeee. Maybe not every moment of every day, but it's almost guaranteed we commit sin daily. Whether it's from small things like saying a prayer like the publicans to not helping our fellow man in need. Almost every single day of our lives we will commit some small act of sin. We are sinners, that is just the nature of the natural man and the nature of the fallen world.

There are so many sins that we can commit, sins of omission, sins of commission, if you ever want a list just read Miracle of Forgiveness. Shoot, not obeying the Holy Ghost is a sin.

But there in lies the absolute beauty, mercy, grace of God's glorious plan-His Son. The only Man to have ever lived a 100% perfect life. Who always did what the Father requested of Him. And b/c of His sacrifice of His life of His infinite and eternal Atonement, it allows us who are poor,wretched sinners to give our sins to Him and become perfect IN Him. We can't ever "work our way" to Heaven as life is just to short for us to become perfected, but as we grow, grace by grace we can overcome sins in this life and His Atonement makes up the rest.

And this goes back to my other point, if nothing is ever sin then you don't need a Savior to Atone for your sins. Certainly people who commit sins in ignorance are not held accountable for those sins as part of the Atonement makes up for sins committed in total ignorance. But that is the point of the Gospel, to TEACH people the laws, the ordinances, the commandments.

The absolute highest commandment is to follow the Holy Ghost, but before you can learn the spirit you have to learn the commandments. Nephi slew Laban-but before he could do so, he KNEW killing was against the commandment and he had been trained to obey the commandments.

Also there is a lot of talk about shame. I think most people don't know what shame really is and it's helpful to go to old dictionaries:
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/shame

I really think too many people substitute guilt for shame-they claimed they feel shame but that's incorrect what they really feel is guilt.

Real shame is more of a public action, it involves public disclosure of either actions or discipline in order to induce feelings of "everyone knows my horrible problem".

There is NO shame culture in the LDS Church, no sins are EVER publicly known-unless for extenuating circumstances. Yes there are some consequences that are public (getting kicked out of BYU, excommunication, etc.), but unless one is vocal about it and decides to tell the public about it no one would publicly know the reason why you stopped attending BYU.

Which is why this is such a BS idea that there is a "shame culture" in the Church for LGBTQ. No one ever publicly discloses your sin-no they FLAUNT it and want it to be accepted-that's not shame that's not wanting to feel guilty.

[Durzan]

I found about this video. It is very relevant to this discussion.

I love MatPat and his work. Ronny, one of MatPat's chief editors and friends, was found dead (by suicide) on July 4th. As a fan of Game Theory, this hits me somewhat hard. Ronny was the one who established the distinctive style of the video, and his influence was felt across youtube. It was because of him that one of my favorite YouTubers was able to do what he loved. Ronny inspired many people, and although I never knew him, my heart is praying for his soul at this moment.

[solonan]

The only real question is whether it is God's will that we kill ourselves?

In almost all cases the answer to this would have to be No. So it is sin. I acknowledge that there may be some occasions where the Lord may give His blessing, but this would be rare.

I think the issue some have with the statements by the GA is that it could lead to more people committing suicide because they feel there is nothing wrong with it. I realize this is being done in the name of love and empathy, but if more people tread down ungodly paths because of it then this really isn't love or empathy at all. it is just enabling of ungodly behavior.

Anti-Christ is a harsh term. I understand Red taking offense to it. Most people would. I believe that term is loaded with all kinds of negative imagery involving actively fighting against Christ which is clearly not the case for Red.

I've been mulling my feelings over about this subject. I think a lot of my hesitation in labeling is because the word sin itself has such negative connotations. I know that logically sin is inherently a negative thing; however, the word itself has been heavily associated with shame and guilt. I began thinking of sin (because of another forum member who helped me tremendously) as something that creates a separation between you and God. I do think that the feelings generated from suicide create a chasm between you and God, so if you look at it that way, then yeah sure, call it a sin, but I don't think we HAVE to do that. We dont HAVE to make suicidal people feel like less by pointing fingers and calling them sinners.

I believe I understand your observation that suicidal people might see it as a free pass. That is probably true in some cases, but I would hope that it is not true in most cases. I think most people don't wish to be suicidal. I have every hope that relieving suicidal people of that pressure would help them turn back toward Christ. I can't see it as enabling because I choose to see it as an act of compassion that a suicidal person can choose to react to in one way or another. They have their agency. I believe that love helps people choose better paths. I know it's a fine line.

Side note: when I changed my view of what sin was, I found it much easier to choose the better path. I felt punished in all of my choices and became angry or resentful when I was labeled a sinner, but when I felt like I was creating a gap between myself and the Lord, I made different choices and made them happily. I WANTED to be close to the Lord, but not because someone was making me be close by using fear tactics. Understanding mercy also helped tremendously. It's probably all just psychology, but for me, it made a huge difference in my happiness and quality of life. Just my experience, one size probably doesn't fit all, haha.

My goodness red, you are so introspective! I love it.

[Finrock]

The only real question is whether it is God's will that we kill ourselves?

In almost all cases the answer to this would have to be No. So it is sin. I acknowledge that there may be some occasions where the Lord may give His blessing, but this would be rare.

I think the issue some have with the statements by the GA is that it could lead to more people committing suicide because they feel there is nothing wrong with it. I realize this is being done in the name of love and empathy, but if more people tread down ungodly paths because of it then this really isn't love or empathy at all. it is just enabling of ungodly behavior.

Anti-Christ is a harsh term. I understand Red taking offense to it. Most people would. I believe that term is loaded with all kinds of negative imagery involving actively fighting against Christ which is clearly not the case for Red.

I've been mulling my feelings over about this subject. I think a lot of my hesitation in labeling is because the word sin itself has such negative connotations. I know that logically sin is inherently a negative thing; however, the word itself has been heavily associated with shame and guilt. I began thinking of sin (because of another forum member who helped me tremendously) as something that creates a separation between you and God. I do think that the feelings generated from suicide create a chasm between you and God, so if you look at it that way, then yeah sure, call it a sin, but I don't think we HAVE to do that. We dont HAVE to make suicidal people feel like less by pointing fingers and calling them sinners.

I believe I understand your observation that suicidal people might see it as a free pass. That is probably true in some cases, but I would hope that it is not true in most cases. I think most people don't wish to be suicidal. I have every hope that relieving suicidal people of that pressure would help them turn back toward Christ. I can't see it as enabling because I choose to see it as an act of compassion that a suicidal person can choose to react to in one way or another. They have their agency. I believe that love helps people choose better paths. I know it's a fine line.

Side note: when I changed my view of what sin was, I found it much easier to choose the better path. I felt punished in all of my choices and became angry or resentful when I was labeled a sinner, but when I felt like I was creating a gap between myself and the Lord, I made different choices and made them happily. I WANTED to be close to the Lord, but not because someone was making me be close by using fear tactics. Understanding mercy also helped tremendously. It's probably all just psychology, but for me, it made a huge difference in my happiness and quality of life. Just my experience, one size probably doesn't fit all, haha.

I heard something not too long ago that frames this in the proper context, I believe. Most people who commit suicide are suffering from some mental illness. Mental illness is taboo and people who suffer from it are treated like they are crazy, irrational, nuts, lunatics, etc. The reality is that having depression, for instance, is an illness just like cancer. We don't mock or ridicule cancer patients, yet, we tend to have this prejudice against people with mental illness like depression. When a person who is suffering from depression commits suicide, it is the untreated depression that killed that person. Just like if we receive a physical ailment or some physical wound, if serious enough, and if nothing is done about it, it will kill us.

Nobody chooses to become depressed. Having depression is invisible. You can't see it, like you can see the effects of cancer on a person. So, there is this strange misunderstanding and this strange tendency for people to blame a person who commits suicide when in fact those who commit suicide are victims of a mental illness.

We ought to have compassion, mercy, understanding, love, genuine concern, and nothing but empathy and sympathy towards suicide victims. Depression, like other mental illnesses, may be a part of a person but it isn't who the person is.

We have a long way to go as a society, unfortunately, to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance when it comes to mental illness and the symptoms associated with it, including suicide. If depression isn't treated, like cancer, it will eventually kill a person. So, suicide is how the person died, depression is what killed them.

-Finrock

[solonan]

I agree with Finrock. My brother suffered from depression and because of a severe accident, suffered from pain he couldn't control. His doctor gave meds for both, as well as diabetes and heart issues. He started hearing voices and felt that the Lord was displeased with him. No amount of talking to him helped. We talked about how suicide is displeasing to the Lord. He wholeheartedly agreed. Prior to all the meds, he was a man close to God. He'd had visions and wonderful insights given to him. The med combo created all types of problems and toxins built in his system. I was called in the middle of the night to come immediately, he had shot himself. I don't think anyone can judge the state of an individual in that position. Judgment lies with the Father of us all.

[ElizaRSkousen]

Nobody chooses to become depressed. Having depression is invisible. You can't see it, like you can see the effects of cancer on a person. So, there is this strange misunderstanding and this strange tendency for people to blame a person who commits suicide when in fact those who commit suicide are victims of a mental illness

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

[Juliet]

The only real question is whether it is God's will that we kill ourselves?

In almost all cases the answer to this would have to be No. So it is sin. I acknowledge that there may be some occasions where the Lord may give His blessing, but this would be rare.

I think the issue some have with the statements by the GA is that it could lead to more people committing suicide because they feel there is nothing wrong with it. I realize this is being done in the name of love and empathy, but if more people tread down ungodly paths because of it then this really isn't love or empathy at all. it is just enabling of ungodly behavior.

Anti-Christ is a harsh term. I understand Red taking offense to it. Most people would. I believe that term is loaded with all kinds of negative imagery involving actively fighting against Christ which is clearly not the case for Red.

I found this on wikipedia and it actually was written by a neighbor I had growing up who was some sort of expert at BYU on religion. It quotes the scripture about how if we keep our second estate we will have glory added forever forever.

I figure life can get pretty tough down here but, as long as we are following the gospel the best we can then we have that promise that as long as we don't cut off this second estate of learning and probation and that we will make it in the end.

That may mean God has to do lots of tinkering on us, but He won't give up on us as long as we don't give up on Him.

We need to encourage people to live and stay alive no matter how hard it gets. Who knows why God allows the pain and heartbreak and for what reason. But it was faith in Jesus that got us here and it is faith in Jesus that will get us out of here. Jesus Christ will fix us and make us perfect if we don't give up on what He is doing while we are alive.

[solonan]

I believe there are those who join the bandwagon because it is the thing. Depression is real for others and for some people I wonder if it is part of the last days attack against the elect by Satan and his minions. It is multifaceted for sure. Years ago it was dismissed as possession by an evil spirit. Perhaps this is where the fullness of the priesthood steps in. Perhaps as people rely upon the Saviour the greater their faith grows and the greater the miracles and the release of bondage from depression. Perhaps this kind goeth out by fasting and prayer. I don't know.

[Finrock]

Nobody chooses to become depressed. Having depression is invisible. You can't see it, like you can see the effects of cancer on a person. So, there is this strange misunderstanding and this strange tendency for people to blame a person who commits suicide when in fact those who commit suicide are victims of a mental illness

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

[Z2100]

Elder Renlund is wrong. Killing oneself is a sin, although state of mind/heart will be taken into account with the Lord. If the Apostles have received revelation contradicting past pronouncements over the General Conference pulpit that suicide is a sin, they should be very clear that they were wrong in the past. But, they will never say that. They are caving to secular humanism. Everyone needs to feel good.

I agree with you on this. The church leaders used to be clear that suicide is a sin unless you have a mental illness, which would be taken account in the great judgment. The gospel has been watered down so much that I’m starting to think that we’re going be right n the edge of apostasy

[ElizaRSkousen]

Nobody chooses to become depressed. Having depression is invisible. You can't see it, like you can see the effects of cancer on a person. So, there is this strange misunderstanding and this strange tendency for people to blame a person who commits suicide when in fact those who commit suicide are victims of a mental illness

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Well what counts as being depressed to you? I was diagnosed by at least 7 practitioners including at least two phychiatrists, 2 counselors, and regular doctors as having clinical depresion, anxiety, and ocd and needing medicine for one or all issues between the ages of 14-22. I went to therapy, had anxiety-related heart testing done, took years worth of pills, and did cognitive therapy workbooks. Does that count?

So I guess the "mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness" is pretty flawed. Because I just decided to treat myself like I was normal, and I became normal.

(isnt that what cognitive therapy is??)

Sounds to me like a lot of people need a wake up call like I had.

Edit: Every workbook I was ever given on mental health said the same thing. "If you're feeling depressed and you dont have the motivation to do anything or be happy, FORCE YOURSELF TO, then eventually the desire will come to you. Actions first, then emotions."

So that sounds like snap out of it to me.

[jadd]

Nobody chooses to become depressed. Having depression is invisible. You can't see it, like you can see the effects of cancer on a person. So, there is this strange misunderstanding and this strange tendency for people to blame a person who commits suicide when in fact those who commit suicide are victims of a mental illness

I have to somewhat disagree. I think our culture is almost boasting and praising mental illness because it gives people an easy cop out. I resist the idea that those with emotional issues arent held to the same standards as 'normal' people. We all have issues, we're all normal.

I grew up with two well meaning but very enabling parents who seemed to almost WANT their children and themselves to be 'sick'. I think it gave them some sort of weird comfort that the Lord would give them an easier time than other people. No way. Everyone wants to be a victim. Its easier.

Luckily, I finally figured out in college that I WASNT depressed or anxious any more than regular people (Perhaps I just never learned the good skills to think rationally about things because my parents didnt know how to) and I stopped taking the medicine my parents and doctor told me I would need for the 'rest of my life'. IM TOTALLY FINE! I just decided I didn't have 'it' anymore, and I didn't! I wish the rest of my family would figure it out too. Its all they ever talk about. It penetrates every aspect of their lives.

That said, I do think that for SOME small minority of people it probably is real. But not anywhere CLOSE to where people think it actually is.

Sounds like your parents were suffering from mental illness and you weren't.

If you actually had depression you would never say its an easy cop out. That is 100% your ignorance speaking. No offense intended. Depression is not normal emotion issues that all suffer with. It just isn't. You don't choose it and you don't just snap your fingers, say hallelujah, and poof its gone. Your anecdotal experience doesn't erase or counter mountains of medical and scientific data on mental illness.

Your post, ironically, illustrates and highlights what I stated that unfortunately we have a long way to go as a society to overcome generations of misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding depression/mental illness.

-Finrock

Depression can be addictive. and so it can also be a cop out. It is often easier to be a victim than to admit that there are things you could do to change your life and reduce the depression drastically. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but the general reason most people feel depression is because they are not living their life the way they should (or the way their spirit knows they should). This can be a mix of multiple factors. These factors can be 1) lack of sleep 2) lack of being in nature 3) lack of doing things of true worth 4) lack of proper nutrition and 5) this combination or mix thereof allows evil and/or unclean spirits to attach and influence us to feel even worse than we normally would with those things. Modern cities are prisons without walls. People don't know why, but they feel trapped, like they can't escape.

I find it fascinating that you believe yourself to be the authority and judge on what society is and should be. As an aside, I have had depression. No it doesn't take a snap of a finger to get out of it, but it does take a change in living and in attitude or perspective. This can be short or it can take a while to change, but just like most addictions, it can be overcome when you find something to replace the deep feeling of depression. It is hard to find something that will fill that deep feeling that sits inside of you that will no longer be there once you give up the depression. It takes a leap of faith. It can be done and it can be overcome and doesn't always take a life time if we make the right changes. It can take minutes, to hours, to days, to months - the timing depends on individual faith and their ability to change your life whether it is fast of slow. All of it depends on how much we search for the specific reasons why depression is occurring within us. Like I said, I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but for the vast majority of cases we can fix ourselves and fairly quickly at that. Once we mentally understand and believe and then act, it really is a just "snap out of it" act. We realize we are no longer depressed and don't need to be.

[ElizaRSkousen]

Once we mentally understand and believe and then act, it really is a just "snap out of it" act. We realize we are no longer depressed and don't need to be.

Thank you for wording it better than I.